Whoa! I'm not the only one legally threatening the Mormon Church to remove my name from

[Are_grits_groceries]

their genealogical records.I want my family removed too.

Jewish Group Wants Mormons to Stop Proxy Baptisms

NEW YORK (AP) -- Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database to make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must ''implement a mechanism to undo what you have done.''

''Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable,'' said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

''We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion,'' Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. ''We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough.''

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Baptizing-the-Dead.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

We should help mount a campaign about this. They should leave the Holocaust survivors and victims alone!!

[annabanana]

1. leave the Holocaust survivors alone?

The are mucking around with the Holocaust VICTIMS..

Creepy business this baptism of the departed...

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. Thanks! I changed the word! nt

[tekisui]

2. They "baptise"

every name they can get. Dead presidents, old family members, you name it.

I can understand people being upset about it, but do they really think it is affecting anything?

[Lerkfish]

6. IIRC, they believe that anyone tangentially related to them must be baptized

either alive or posthumously or THEY THEMSELVES will not move on to the next spiritual plane.

and, the next spiritual plane is they get to be gods over their own little universes. This is how it was explained to me by a mormon coworker once. Either he's right, and I fundamentally disagree with their notions, or he was pulling my leg.

[tekisui]

8. That is pretty much it.

But, they also believe everyone baptized by proxy, still gets to choose to accept or not in the afterlife.

My whole family is Mormon. I am a lone wolf, in that regard.

[Lerkfish]

10. ok, then at least I understood him correctly.

IMHO, not cutting down another's religion, but where I would disagree is this ultimately means Pol Pot and Hitler and other nefarious unrepentant persons would get a "get out of hell" free card based solely on the persistance of their progeny.

seems a crap shoot and unrelated to one's actual works nor beliefs.

My views do not coincide.

[old mark]

11. He was right. nt

[lelgt60]

18. no...that's about it...but, hold on...you can't escape the missionaries even after you die!!!

I don't think it is necessary to baptize the dead to move on to the next spiritual plain.

What happens is (according to the Mormons), if you die without hearing the gospel, you go to spirit prison. There, dead Mormons will be assigned as missionaries to preach the gospel to you. If you accept it, you get to go to paradise...but...you have to be baptized first. Problem is, you can't be baptized in heaven, only with a real, physical body. So, that must be done here on earth by Mormons. They use a proxy Mormon in the temple to do this.

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. Sounds like a bizarre episode of Kukla, Fran and Ollie!! nt

[gratefultobelib]

9. Yes, they believe the only way you can enter the Celestial Kingdom (the best one) is by

being baptized in the LDS faith, so they "baptize" their ancestors posthumously.

[GoneOffShore]

3. Creepy Mormons

I rate them with Scientologists when it comes to fairy stories.

[Wiley50]

22. Yep, The LDS Church is a LOT Crazier than the LSD Church

http://www.lsdst.org/

[Omnibus]

26. We should found the LSD church.

And baptize live Mormons against their will.

Then refuse to acknowledge that they're Mormons; sorry, you belong to OUR church now.

[luvspeas]

5. When I hear Mormon...

All I can think about is the magic underwear. It's like picturing everybody in their underwear, except only the Mormons.

[Howardx]

7. there are plenty of mormon practices

that could stand a little more sunlight.

[lunatica]

12. I hate religion

Because they have nothing to do with spirituality

[aquart]

13. People are always forcibly converting us.

The concept of consent really doesn't work for them.

Dear Mormons, just because you can't get breathing converts doesn't mean you are entitled to our dead.

[d_b]

14. what a bunch of freaks.

:puke:

[Donnachaidh]

15. if other groups understood the *baptism by proxy*

They'd be outraged with this supposed *practice*.

As far as my ancestors are concerned, they can expect an ass-whooping in Heaven if my folks are suddenly told they had to go sit in the Mormon bleacher section. :rofl:

[enlightenment]

16. This is nothing new - and it hardly needs a campaign.

It's just a little silly, don't you think?

The presumption is that - somehow - dead people are impacted by this posthumous baptism. I seriously doubt that even Mr. Michel believes that. Baptism without belief (and certainly baptism after death - a bizarre concept to begin with) is meaningless - in the Middle Ages, many Jews chose not only to be baptised, but to attend Catholic rites to avoid persecution (see here for more: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Marranos.html ).

What's very sad about this is the potential loss of information. Say what you will about the LDS church (and believe me, I've said plenty over the years, none of it repeatable), their odd fixation with getting all their relatives into heaven has created one of the best - if not the best - genealogical collections in the world.

[Are_grits_groceries]

17. Apparently it matters a great deal to the Holocaust survivors!

If you read the entire article, Mr.Michel is quite upset with this practice.
I don't blame him. They want to be left alone from anybody's religion.
So do I!

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Not true as far as 'best genealogical collection in the world' goes

the Mormon database is rife with errors, because they tend to be not especially rigorous or concerned with the accuracy of submitted data. There's a lot in their records that's verifiably wrong; this is something I know from just my own genealogical research.

[diane in sf]

20. It's nonsense, but so is most religious belief (as opposed to spiritual experiences)

[lelgt60]

21. I think a few of us have given you all too much information...

Go have a drink (or toke) and forget this...it never happened

[cobalt1999]

23. One made up belief system practicing made up rituals on another made up belief system

Big Whoop. It's all Bullshit anyway.

[backscatter712]

24. For those of you interested in genelalogy:

Doesn't the Mormon Church actually open up its genealogical records to those of us who want to do research?

I've been half-tempted to actually take them up on their offer and fill in a few more pieces of my family tree. If all they want in exchange is to wave dead chickens over my name, who am I to care?

Still, their practice of posthumous baptism by proxy is pretty disrespectful - I can't approve of it.

[lelgt60]

25. absolutely - you don't have to be baptized or anything

I believe their archives are considered among the best in the world.

http://www.ancestorhunt.com/mormon_church_records.htm

[Libertyfirst]

27. They can baptise me by proxy all they want. I'm still going to hell....

because the company is going to be so much better.

[luvspeas]

28. I suspect the food is better too!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[closeupready]

29. oops sorry wrong thread

delete