Why should I care about "Illegal Mexican immigrants takin' American jobs"?

[Lefty48197]

For every job "taken" by an illegal Mexican immigrant in the Southwestern U.S., how many manufacturing jobs have been lost from my Great Lakes region due to the transfer of American manufacturing to China? Ten times as many? One hundred times as many?

At least the Mexican immigrants count their wages using DOLLARS per hour and they spend some of their money in this country, unlike the teenage Chinese girls who make all the crap sold by Walmart and the rest of America's retailers. They only measure their wages in cents per hour. Their wage rates and work schedules would get their employers tossed in jail if they tried to impose them inside our country. The Walmarting of American manufacturing jobs really is the next best thing to slavery if you're trying to save wage and benefit costs.

For too long, states in the industrial Great Lakes region have watched our standards of living decline as the manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of our economies left for foreign lands. And people want us to worry about the financial strains placed on the Southwest states and communities due to illegal immigrants from Mexico? Really?

Forget it. We in the Great Lakes region have finally united with our common cause. We understand that our economies are so closely related that we will all sink together if we don't unite and defend what's left of our manufacturing economies. The decline of manufacturing jobs has even reliably Republican Ohio and Indiana now ready to help elect Chicago resident Barack Obama as President.

2008 may very well have Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New York all voting for one Presidential Candidate. Toss in Iowa and New Jersey because their economies and demographics are so similar to our. Have all these states EVER voted as one before? Even Fritz Mondale carried Minnesota.

A unified electoral voting bloc of the states in the Great Lakes region could decide Presidential elections for years to come.

Oh behalf of all of us, I'd like to say that we're very pleased ta meet cha!

[Mind_your_head]

1. I'll keep my money under the mattress.....thank you very much.

The NWO is *not* for me (or you) *ultimately*

There is a 'right way to deal with people and differences and a
'wrong' way.

NWO is the 'wrong way'. (how do you recognize it? It makes you feel "icky" and uncomfortable ~ so, perhaps, you don't/won't think about what is being shoved down your throat ~ AT ALL!!!!

[napi21]

2. You're right that the biggest problem is companies sending jobs

to the lowest cost labor areas of the world, but you should also be concerned that similar greedy contractors hired cheap labor (illegal immigrants) and displaced more experienced people just to put more $$ in THEIR pockets! The problem there is not the illegal immegrants, it's the illegal hiring of cheap labor. For a very long time, I've been saying if they clamped down on the employers for hiring people inelligible to work in the US, the problem would go away. Well, I've been proven right! It's been reported for the last few months that many illegals have gone back home because there's no work available anymore. Home builders aren't building anymore, people don't have the disposable income to hire gardners & lawn services.

I HOPE when President Obama takes office, he forces a change in the trade laws to make it unprofitable for any US company to outsource jobs!

[spin]

23. Of the corporations, for the corporations and by the corporations...

that's what our country has become.

Can Obama change this? He faces a difficult road as the corporations own the people we elect and send to Washington to represent us.

I agree that we need to clamp down on the companies that hire illegal immigrants in this country. Send a few company executives to jail and this problem will vanish. This would also stop companies from treating illegal aliens as a slave underclass. We need to change our immigration policies so as to allow immigrants to come to America and perform jobs that Americans truly will not do. With legal status these hard working honest people will find our country a wonderful place to improve their lives and the lives of the people they left behind. They will receive fair pay and protection from abusive employers. No longer will many have to risk their lives to cross our border. True, fewer may be hired, but this should benefit Americans looking for jobs in an economy in a severe downturn.

Outsourcing is another big problem. No company who participates in this practice should get any tax breaks. Perhaps their taxes should be increased! Give tax breaks to those corporations or companies that only hire American workers.

If this were to happen maybe I could call tech support and talk to someone who I could understand.

[4lbs]

3. Stop making sense dammit! You are taking away Lou Dobbs' one main issue!

[DBoon]

4. capital crosses borders faster and in larger quantities than labor possibly can

The problem isn't the very limited ability of labor to cross borders over days or weeks, it is the unlimited ability of capital to do so, at the push of a button.

[spin]

5. You should care because they are too often treated as slaves...

CHATTANOOGA - A federal lawsuit accuses a financially ailing Tennessee cheese company of mistreating 12 illegal immigrant employees and having them wrongly arrested at their jobs in Manchester when they demanded back pay.

The Montgomery, Ala.-based Southern Poverty Law Center filed the damage suit Thursday against Durrett Cheese Sales Inc., contending the Latino employees were made victims of "wage theft, discrimination and retaliation" just after the company filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition in August 2007.

*******snip*****

The suit contends the Mexican workers "peacefully assembled" during a morning break Oct. 22, 2007 to request overdue paychecks, after some of them had worked longer than a month without getting paid.

The suit says the employer retaliated "by threatening and firing" them, then arranging their arrest and detention on false trespassing charges and their subsequent arrest by federal agents.

Bauer said the "sheriff knew this was a pay dispute. Instead of listening to that, he arrested them for trespassing," even though the workers were in their uniforms and asking to be paid.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/oct/17/illegal-immigr... /

Any worker who comes to the United States deserves the same protection and rights of an American worker. We need to push our government to change our immigration policy to allow foreign workers to come to our country and work legally. Currently we are allowing companies to treat the illegal workers as slaves. If we have any compassion we must stop this mistreatment.

[silverojo]

6. Foreign workers in our country? No, thanks!

I do agree that we need to stop employers from abusing employees this way. But such a law could open up even more problems with, say, workers from India or other countries coming here and taking hi-tech jobs from Americans.

@the original poster...
They may be counting their money in dollars, but they're shipping most of those dollars to their relatives in Mexico. (That's why so many Mexicans crowd together, living in one house--so they can send more money back to Mexico.) So those dollars aren't doing much to help our economy, but they're sure making the Mexican govt. happy....

[emilyg]

7. Good post.

[spin]

9. The problem you mention is separate...

workers from India are legal. We also need to work on this problem to prevent our high tech jobs disappearing to lower paid workers from foreign countries.

But most of the illegal Mexican workers are not high tech. They are however hard working individuals who are trying to provide for their families in Mexico. To allow American companies to abuse them and treat them as slaves is disgusting and racist. I am ashamed of my country when it allows this to happen.

As for the legal workers from foreign nations, we should insure that they fill positions for which there are no qualified American workers. Of course, they should receive the same pay and rights of an American worker.

I fear that the people we elect to represent us are too often lackeys of the big corporations. We are becoming a country of the corporations, for the corporations and by the corporations. If the big corporations want to replace American workers with lower paid workers from foreign nations, our elected officials are happy to comply.

As citizens we need to spend a little less time watching American Idol and a little more time watching the news. But considering the educational level of the average citizen this might prove an impossible dream. Perhaps that's why our educational system sucks. The corporate masters prefer that the majority of people have only a minimum education so as to be good wage slaves.

[Romulox]

16. If it's fine for you to buy a car made in Korea, why shouldn't I be able to hire an Indian to do IT?

entirely irrespective of whether or not they are displacing "qualified Americans". There are "qualified Americans" making cars, after all...

Protectionism for the service sector, brutal capitalism for the manufacturing sector? That's not fair.

[spin]

17. The subject in the OP was "Why should I care about illegal Mexicans...

taking American jobs.

My argument is that Americans should care about illegal Mexican workers as the big companies are hiring them and exploiting them as a slave underclass. If we were to revise our immigration policies to allow more Mexicans to legally work in this country, we could ensure they received fair treatment from
their employers.

Also many illegal Mexicans take extreme risks to journey across our border to find work. The "coyotes" who smuggle Mexicans across the border often rape the better looking women and hang their panties on a "rape tree" as trophies. Many illegal Mexicans die during the journey.

U.S. Border Patrol spokesperson Andrea Zortman told AHN that they registered 400 immigrant deaths slong the border in fiscal year 2007, which ended September 30. That number includes migrants of all nationalities.

The Tucson-based Human Rights Coalition, however, claims that number to be much higher. According to their calculations, over the past decade, 5,000 men, women and children of various nationalities have died trying in the region, as they attempted, and failed, to start new lives in the United States.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009072172

The question of automobiles made in Korea or the hiring of Indians to make a car in the United States is a different topic. We do need to ensure that if a foreign national comes to America to legally fill a job it is because there are no qualified Americans to do the job. Of course, the foreign worker should receive the same pay that a qualified American would if one was available. But since these workers are in the United States legally, they are not mistreated as illegal Mexicans often are.

[Romulox]

18. The subject of the post to which I responded was Indian IT workers...

"My argument is that Americans should care about illegal Mexican workers as the big companies are hiring them and exploiting them as a slave underclass."

My argument is that the distinction you draw is artificial and without substance; if you buy finished materials from a company that exploits its workers--but in China, say--you are just as guilty of supporting exploitation as if that same worker was exploited here in the US.

"The question of automobiles made in Korea or the hiring of Indians to make a car in the United States is a different topic."

Nonsense. It's part of the self-same topic.

"We do need to ensure that if a foreign national comes to America to legally fill a job it is because there are no qualified Americans to do the job. Of course, the foreign worker should receive the same pay that a qualified American would if one was available."

But why should I care if a US worker is being displaced when I purchase a service and yet not care if I purchase goods? I see no principled distinction. If it's OK to exploit workers who live in India, why is it not OK to exploit workers who live in Indiana? If your point of distinction is merely geography, then your argument fails.

[spin]

20. O.K. you do make a valid point...

I care about the treatment of illegal Mexicans by American companies and I also care about the treatment of workers in China or other nations who produce goods for sale in the United States.

I also care about Americans who spend considerable time, effort and money to obtain a quality education in a field such as engineering and find their job outsourced to a an engineer in a foreign country who will do their job at a much lower wage.

I also get tired of attempting to explain my computer problems to people working the late night shift in some far off nation who can barely speak English. I'm positive a company could hire qualified people here in the U.S. to answer my problems. If say one well known computer company would hire American workers to answer technical problems, I would buy my next computer from them.

I also get tired of walking into Wal-Mart and finding only goods made in foreign nations.

Many are surprised that Wal-Mart's operations have contributed to America's growing deficit. One has to consider that very few of Wal-Mart's products are made in the United States. In fact, Wal-Mart imports more foreign-produced goods into America than any other single company. As the U.S. dollar weakens, more money flows out to pay for foreign products thus worsening America's trade imbalance.

Some 60% of Wal-Mart products are imported from such countries as fast-growing South Korea, Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam. The company's biggest trading partner is China. In 2004, the company's trade with China accounted for about 10 percent of the total U.S. trade deficit with the Asian economic powerhouse.
http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/walm...

And I believe I lost my cat (my best friend and companion) to pet food contaminated with toxic ingredients from China two years ago. The pet food recall occurred two months after I put him down at the vets recommendation.

When possible I try to buy products made in the United States. It's difficult and often more expensive, but at least I try. When I do, I often find the quality of the products superior.

But as I stated, the post that started this discussion was Why should I care about "Illegal Mexican immigrants takin' American jobs"?.

Perhaps you could start a discussion about the broader issues. Perhaps you could ask If it's OK to exploit workers who live in India, why is it not OK to exploit workers who live in Indiana? . Could lead to a lot of interesting comments.

[treestar]

22. The labor laws regarding immigrants are set up that way

Enforcement is another issue, though.

http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov /

The information at the above link is about how it is supposed to work, since I found it, I am amazed at the extent of misinformation there is between Lou Dobbs and the internet on the subject. H-1B haters are the most guilty of spreading disinformation.

[spin]

24. If we enforced all of existing laws...

we would solve most of the problems in this country. And we wouldn't have to pass new laws which we don't enforce.

Interesting link.

I found the following info fascinating:

The Department of Labor has a statutory responsibility to ensure that no foreign worker (or “alien”) is admitted for permanent residence based upon an offer of employment absent a finding that there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified and available for the work to be undertaken and that the admission of such worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed. 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(5)(A)(i). The Department fulfills this responsibility by determining the availability of qualified U.S. workers before approving a permanent labor certification application and by ensuring that U.S. workers are fairly considered for all job opportunities that are the subject of a permanent labor certification application. Accordingly, the Department relies on employers who file labor certification applications to recruit and consider U.S. workers in good faith, even where the employer already has a temporarily-admitted foreign national working for the employer.

[Romulox]

25. Basic logic problem: If there IS an actual scarcity of workers, then admitting more will

necessarily "adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed," 8 U.S.C. § 1182 notwithstanding.

This is basic economics.

[spin]

26. True, but some foreigners are an asset to our country..

My current doctor was educated in Russia. He's an excellent physician but still has a strong accent. My previous doctor, when I lived in a different city was originally from Trinidad, but received his medical education in Canada. I worked with an engineer who came from Scotland and had a strong Scottish accent. Of course, all the co-workers called him Scotty after the engineer on Star Trek. The company I worked for had a bounty out for qualified engineers. If you found one, they would pay you $1000. A good friend and co-worker had been born in China, raised in Hong Kong and emigrated to the U.S. in his late 20's.

But these individuals are naturalized citizens of the United States. The money they make in their profession is the same as others in the same field. Therefore, I don't oppose legal immigration.

Had the company I worked for brought engineers from a foreign country to work on a temporary visa, your economic theory would apply.

The same would hold true if the company had outsourced engineering to countries such as India.

In order to preserve out standard of living, we have to be careful of workers coming to the states on temporary visas to replace qualified American workers or outsourcing good paying jobs to other nations because of lower costs.

The problem we face is that our government appears to favor the big corporations over the average citizen.

[Romulox]

28. The laws of economics apply whether you "like" your doctor or not.

A scarcity of a skillset = higher wages. Brining additional workers in means a decrease in wages for any given field. This has nothing to do with legal immigration status. Nothing.

Quite frankly, your distinction between "legal" and "illegal" workers is odd, given that workers on a "temporary visa" are also working legally. It seems that your theory of immigration is: "if it benefits me then it must be ok!" That's fine, but the conversation was about the effect of immigration on overall wages.

[Romulox]

29. PS--if US engineers are so scarce, is the gov't encouraging more young people then ever to study

the subject?

No?

Hmmmm....wonder why not? $1000 sounds like a bargain vs. $30,000/semester for 6-7 years!

[spin]

31. Education is so expensive today....

that many students who could get degrees and hold really good high paying jobs are unable or unwilling to take on the financial burden. If they do and manage to get a job in the engineering profession, it is quite possible that the job will be outsourced to an engineer in a foreign country.

The middle class is gradually disappearing.

[Romulox]

32. You've made my point then. Importing cheap labor undercuts the value of education. nt

[spin]

33. So how do we stop this...

It looks like the government has already realized the problem and set up safeguards to prevent foreign workers wither temporary or seeking permanent residence from adversely affecting the wages of American workers.

The link posted above by treestar is enlightening. http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov / but as he says "Enforcement is another issue, though."

But as you point out "importing cheap labor undercuts of the value of education". It sounds to me like what we have here is another example of our government failing to enforce existing laws.

I would be interested in your ideas. I have spent little time studying this issue, but while it hasn't been on my radar perhaps it should have been. Recently I've been wondering why college education is so damn expensive. I'll bet it's a lot cheaper in the foreign countries that we import labor from or outsource jobs to.

Long ago and in another universe I taught electronics as an Air Force instructor. I had a classroom, a black board and an overhead projector. Since I was merely a two stripe airman and was paid peanuts I came cheap. The training that I and the other low ranking enlisted instructors provided enabled the students we taught to service and maintain the most advanced electronic systems on aircraft at that time. And the education I received from other enlisted instructors enabled me to start a rewarding career as an electronic technician for a large corporation when I left the Air Force.

So of course, I question the cost for a college education.

In a post above you said:

Quite frankly, your distinction between "legal" and "illegal" workers is odd, given that workers on a "temporary visa" are also working legally. It seems that your theory of immigration is: "if it benefits me then it must be ok!" That's fine, but the conversation was about the effect of immigration on overall wages.

No. That's not my position. I believe in legal immigration as I feel it has made our nation one of the greatest if not the greatest nation in the world. I believe that legal immigration protects the immigrants but illegal immigration form countries like Mexico is providing a slave underclass for greedy companies. Hiring illegal workers for low wages and requiring them to work long hours for little or no pay allows these companies an unfair advantage over more honest companies.

But if I were to study the history of immigration and its effect of wages of existing citizens, I bet that it has always been used as a method of obtaining cheap labor.

You've opened up a whole new area for me to think about. Thanks.

[tblue]

8. Even China is outsourcing manufacturing to cheaper labor in Thailand and other

countries. How long before they begin outsourcing to us for cheap labor?

I hate like hell all this vilification of the Mexican people. I live in California and everyone I know who is from Mexico is extremely hardworking and law-abiding. Many of them go to school 5 nights a week, AFTER they finish working all day, so they can become citizens. I tutored English at one of those schools until the program got cut. I have the greatest respect for these people and I will stand with them every damn step of the way.

[old mark]

10. If any immigrant - legal or not-is desparate or dumb enough to take my

old job, they are welcome to it and good luck.
I was a PA civil service employee - we got treated like shit, paid just above poverty level, and had benefit cuts with every new contract.

"Somebody stole my identity - I feel sorry for them."

mark

[Edweird]

11. Your job is important and fuck everybody else. I see that a lot here.

The effects of illegal immigration are not limited the "the Southwest". As a member of the construction trade that has witnessed $30.00/hr living wage jobs turn into $10-15/hr subsistence jobs (along with a dramatic decrease in quality and safety) over the past 10 years, I submit that you are clueless. If you think this doesn't affect *YOU*, then you need to think a little past the end of your own nose. Wages are down, unemployment is up, and you are celebrating foreigners taking lobs and driving wages down? What the fuck is wrong with you?

There are many here (you particularly) that will willingly throw their fellow American workers 'under the bus' in a heartbeat. Not only is that pathetic and disgusting self centered assholery, it also enables those that would happily return us to a 'feudal' time. Way to go! This attitude shocked me when I first encountered it here, but I have come to accept that many posters are either out of touch with reality or just plain bastards. Whichever you are, you do NOT speak for me.

[Romulox]

14. Whatsa matter? Honda payment late?

[nichomachus]

12. What American jobs have been "taken" by immigrants

Most immigrants do jobs Americans don't want and won't do -- or can't do.

What's going on here is that the fascists with their destroy-the-middle-class policies are causing downward pressure in the job market, forcing formerly middle-class workers into looking for the shit jobs now done by immigrants.

So, when Joe the Mechanic, who previously made $25 an hour, is looking for a job mopping floors at WalMart for $7 an hour, the fascists want him blaming someone other than them. This is why they're setting up the Mexicans as scapegoats. They want Joe beating up Mexicans for "stealing his job" mopping floors, rather than beating up fascists for destroying his old job as a mechanic.

[Romulox]

15. Americans "don't want" these jobs because they exploitative.

Bosses like to make this an issue of "race" so they can distract you from the fact that $7/hour isn't a living wage for ANYONE.

Mission accomplished! :hiL

[Fumesucker]

13. Because the illegals are taking those jobs that *can't* be shipped overseas.

It's a classic case of double whammy.. First, the manufacturing jobs were shipped off to foreign lands.

Then foreigners were encouraged to come and take those jobs that couldn't be shipped off.

[tjwash]

19. Dude....they're leaving here and going back to Mexico because of the crap economy here.

nt

[wvbygod]

21. Anybody that contributes to society is welcome

Much better to focus on those that are able to contribute but won't contribute.

Nationality or race should have nothing to do with it.

[AZ Criminal JD]

27. Sorry to tell you this but your jobs are gone

The Midwest jobs are long gone and never returning. I know, every four years candidates pander to you and tell you they will bring the jobs back. Not going to happen. Ever. That is why young people and other productive people in the Midwest are moving out and going to the south, southwest and west. If you are the last one there please turn the lights out.

[Romulox]

30. Ummm, the jobs are leaving the South and Southwest in droves too...

What a bizarre post. Is Alabama not in a recession right now?

[KamaAina]

34. Thank you for your concern