Why they HATE us..

[undergroundpanther]

Really deep down past all politics, There is a war of two types.
Two types of personalities,who thrive in two different kinds of cultures.

The sociopath/authoritarian/bully/narcissist personality types..
Who thrive in authoritarian,competitive,selfish,ruthless greedy hierarchical types of cultures,a leader in this culture dominates all underneath,a cancer/hive mind like arrangement that fears changes, strives for cultural uniformity,dominates,uses,abuses people,kills things it can't conquer or understand,lets leaders take and expects nothing in return,conquers nature by destroying it and consuming it..until death.They HATE us.But they need us to abuse and they exploit us and pretend they can do without us.They are predatory parasites operating in a hierarchical structure,to exploit whatever it can and give nothing in return.It has a pyramid shape.The tip is for the few "self made" false "leaders" and each social strata layer below the top obeys the layer above, and it rests upon the backs and suffering of those below.And there are alot of people on the very bottom suffering and powerless and heavily exploited.


VS

Everyone else.Those who can get along together without exploitation at someone else's expense.non predatory,cooperative,shares tasks, isn't threatened by diversity, welcomes changes,understands egalitarianism,respects relationships and obligations,shares,and loves,and helps those less strong and fortunate,the leaders of these cultures are there to make each person a leader of them self..The leaders are not given power over people they are expected to give more to others than he takes in a egalitarian type of culture. Relationships are horizontal networks.

This difference in the personalities is not clearly drawn in black or white at first glance most of the time however.
But there are clear boundaries,each of us have and when they are broken,repeatedly the violations create a pattern of abuse that can trace behaviors that over time will reveal the nature of a person's character no matter how he talks or appears at the time.This over time observation concerning relationships to boundaries can reveal alot about a person,a family,a 'leader', a corporation, or even a government.This corruption was recognized in the US Bill of rights even.

This conflict of types of persons has been ongoing problem just under the surface of issues regarding religion, politics,economics, justice, childrearing, and just about every other issue that impacts our lives. The root of all this conflict continues unseen as long as we DO NOT recognize being around ,or giving power to certain personality types as dangers to our collective and individual health.
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/ACE /

What the more idealistic decent people don't understand is certain toxic personalities won't change and be nice if you just give them compassion because IT IS WHO they ARE.
What makes them so mean greedy or abusive is WHO THEY ARE..These toxic people see themselves as perfect and in no need of changing.
Sop they'll just play along sucking you dry until they get bored or move on.
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm

Society denies the damage their personality causes to all of us who are NOT LIKE THEM.Traumatizing us in any way a bully can to TRY to make US like THEM is their answer.Teaching us to HATE victims,teaching us to minimize our own outrage at being harmed used,abused of taken advantage of,and they teach us to BLAME ourselves first,they exploit and twist our sense of responsibility to each other and our remorse at what happened to get away with more abuse..

Ever wonder why so little of the vast government fund's go to child welfare and domestic abuse,or rape crisis,monetary help for destitute people,or feeding the homeless? Why do victims get shamed or minimized or ignored or even people by-stand as a person is being victimized? Meanwhile why do Ceo's getting HUGE salaries and golden parachutes get billions of welfare to save these bad companies run by these ruthless irresponsible greedy bullies,that were so irresponsible? Do they have no SHAME?

In fact no,they have no shame.and if you observe they shamelessly want more and pressure congress to give it to them as they go to posh resorts.They will shamelessly take until they can no longer get away with it because of who they are their personality types...And that shapes the priorities they have.
http://www.globalissues.org/issue/235/consumption-and-c...

The bullies of the world do protect their own kind somewhat, they share a predatory mindset that insures they keep power to themselves and keep others under control.They have similar enough agendas to act together to do crimes or exploit nations.There IS the Good 'ole boy networks.Sadly our protective kin networks have been seriously undermined by the way our society is structured around jobs and consumerism ,and by who has power over it...

Too often in our society the victim is labeled .You do not see the real person. Even in charity, one gives not to a real person but to an organization. And people are forced to go through bureaucratic hoops fro assistance, all the while feeling diminished as a victim, or as being poor.
http://groups.google.com/group/bpf-tampabay/web/homeles...

That cultural reaction to disrespect the victim is no accident,for a victim has a voice that if heard and acted upon by too many people could destroy the networks,schemes of a predatory toxic person or corporation.It could blow the cover and the game.

Because our culture has been traumatized and trained by authoritarian based institutions like, parents ,church ,school,jobs,all are top down hierarchical structures that gradually WARP our self hood conscience,and make us compromise our integrity bit by bit,so slow it isn't even seen,until we gain courage to ask why we do what we do,and most people do not like the cognitive dissonance and anxiety such thoughts create in their own heads they just bury it,forget about it and cope another day.

This denial system serves well the few narcissists/authoritarians/sociopaths
/bullies/abusers(financial abuse included here)to"get ahead" or "win".

"We realized that it summarizes what happens in societies that systematically traumatize their citizens for purposes of control. Dominator societies don’t want us to be who we are. Our being who we are proves inconvenient, because dominator systems want us to be who they tell us to be. They don’t want our creativity. They want our obedience. They don’t want our real selves. They want our traumatized selves, our frozen rabbit selves, ready to sacrifice everything for the promise of safety and security.

If, however,(we believe) there is nothing we can do, then we learn helplessness. If the control-paradigm parent, teacher, spouse, or boss cannot be stopped, then our self-efficacy disappears."
http://www.trufax.org/paradigm/paradigm/escape3.html

(*Unlike the site linked,I don't believe the bible solves anything but the link above DOES clearly describe the effects of social domination/traumatizing well,that's why I linked to it.*)

So to endure and "contain" the trauma of being forced to pretend,people play make believe, the people without these poison personalities tell themselves lies to endure it,to cope with having to be dependent upon abusers who position themselves in powerful social places.This is why some support the wall street bailout they really believe their lives depend on the system that exploits them. We tell ourselves and each other evil little lies like: "boys will be boys","she asked for it" "you can't fight city hall".."He's the boss it's his company he can do what he wants to with it".And that is playing MAKE BELIEVE in a moral sense.. This culture does this crap one way or another.And we must find a way to question and debunk these beliefs.

Here is a whole study justifying the lies our hierarchy tells us,
"Hierarchy, inequality, and violence have always been part of human social structures. There were always rulers and ruled, leaders and followers, the fortunate and the needy, the powerful and the weak. Various cultures have treated disparities in status, power, fortune, and ability in different ways."
http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhood.html

This article lies and says a few truths too.One BIG lie is the premise,the article writer takes human social hierarchy as a "given fact".The writer IGNORES the fact not every culture follows the top down hierarchy model. That is the lie every social hierarchy needs us to believe . But it only seems true because the top down bully cultures for centuries have been busy wiping all the non-hierarchical cultures off the planet,including the collective memory of that way of life..Some indigenous cultures are not top down in social structure and did well for a very,very long time..

I think,humans once formed societies to benefit all members of said culture in a group effort, co-creation of civilization to mitigate the harsh realities of nature. Maybe this is why we formed civilizations to begin with.To help each other survive the harsher times nature dishes out to life on this planet, like droughts or floods.

Anthropologists identify egalitarian cultures as "Kinship-oriented," because they value social harmony more than wealth or status.Egalitarian cultures minimize inequalities, while hierarchical cultures emphasize the importance of rank and status. Seems somewhere along the line of history this civilization project became hijacked by authoritarians/sociopaths/narcissists and with them and under their "leadership"(abuse), came social hierarchy inequality, and empires and wars,overtaking egalitarian cultures looting,raping,conquering,converting,attempting to erase them.

http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/8/2/9.html
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/cfsi-icse/cil-cai/magazine...
http://www.awakenedwoman.com/marler_hodder.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4467/is_1_55/ai_... ;col1

Life in a hierarchical culture like ours is,is very much like the situation of a child stuck in a dysfunctional(abusive) home, if you are not of the dominator class.Everyone avoids the truth that this is sick and what makes us sick.
The fake "alpha" and obedience to that fake "alpha",catering to the fake "alphas"is the problem we must overcome.

We have to stop tolerating the intolerable and telling ourselves and each other that something intolerable is tolerable.

We have to grow up and abandon or contain these "authorities" and "alpha assholes and their 'culture'. We have to learn to speak to them in the language THEY can understand. The language of DOMINATION and SUBMISSION.
http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/discouragement/words.h...


While we re-learn how to listen and talk to EACH OTHER with Emotional compassion,respect,honesty and empathy.
We must as a species learn to recognize the toxic personality from the non-toxic,and speak to each in their own language.

Telling sensitized traumatized people telling you you are hurting them to grow thicker skins makes observers more callous and indifferent to others suffering.It makes the blood drop a few degrees colder as we give each other 'permission' to lurch a tiny step closer to the mentality of the alpha dominator asshole,or the thoughtless selfish predator.We might not like what we become if we keep belittling,denying a voice to, and hurting the weakest among us.

The Authoritarian/narcissist and sociopaths unlike people that choose to be an ass to others sometimes,have NO inner locus of control.They feel no shame, guilt or remorse.They do not FEEL trauma or abuse like non toxic people do.They have no conscience.They know right from wrong technically but they don't give a shit about that and find it fun to dupe the laws. They want to dismantle the structures in us that fuel our compassion,love and stop the urges we have to help others weaker than us.Love and empathy is what binds a compassionate culture together and the social contract reflects this.The sociopaths/authoritarians.and narcissistic people want freedom from the social contract we live through that enables us to live in peace together
http://anthropik.com/2005/09/maintaining-and-creating-e... /



The authoritarian /sociopath/narcissist believes what holds society together is obedience to POWER that holds society together.(usually it means the toxic personalities "power" that is abusive and traumatizing and creates FEAR and obedience in normal non abusive people. Trauma and obedience out of fear of "consequences" that force people into a dilemma that that has no good choice that helps the top down hierarchy structure these bullies impose on us if we DEFER to them and Know Our Places.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html
These warped personality types see as prey and we deserve whatever they do to us because we are less than they are in their self serving appraisals.To them everything has a price tag and it can be stolen sold or exploited and consumed,when it is used up they toss it away,and the used becomes a victim.A victim that haunts them as long as that victim knows the truth,the predator will try to shut them up or minimize them or discredit them to save face and maintain the illusion of the regular guy or pillar in the community role.Because the victim is the only kind of conscience that can counter them,like behavioral control,conscience as well must be imposed from outside for these predatory people.

Truth is we have to stop thinking like prey, question the validity of common beliefs and help each other see through and heal traumas that conditioned us all to be domesticated,accept internecine competing and afraid. We are NOT prey and we can listen to a victim and stand by them.We can limit the abusers of power and make it so they are powerless,and contained or if need be, eliminated.

Our very survival and maybe even survival of many other species or the ecosystem may depend on us learning this lesson.
And stopping the predatory destructive psychopathic men and women that are hellbent on subjecting everything on Earth to their controlling sick whims.They are killing life on Earth attempting to protect this imposing ,self serving game to keep power-over,control, illusion of certainty ,high social status,unchecked predatory behavior without accountability,over-wealth for self at expense of most,and an energy-intensive system that dominates most and sickens everything so they can do what they want to do and no one can tell them to not do it..

This is a personality conflict, it is the real issue underneath the"right wing" /"left wing" conflicts too.
It is the real reason we have a "justice system"laws,and jails and why sometimes jails contain the wrong people and so little is done to restore the integrity of justice.
This conflict of the psyches is why corporations,governments,churches and military get away with doing such bad things and get huge corporate welfare checks(bailouts) while homeless people are hated and harassed and left to die.

That stubborn obedience to the authority most people have in them is being abused by the morally and ethically bankrupted personalities among us who put on the illusion of power,success and"alpha-ness" to exploit us.That is why we accept we live as we are forced to live and why we pretend it is OK to live this way and let the Earth die around us,while we tell ourselves there is NO other options..No other way to run a culture.As it crumbles right before our eyes and the corruption is visible,and we do not take the risks to stop it until it has gotten so bad ,entrenched and large we cannot lie to ourselves anymore.Often by then it is too late and many people die before we come around as a collectively to the see the truth and disobey and attack the illegitimate authorities causing our suffering.
http://www.mindjustice.org/wisdom.htm

Truth is we don't have to tolerate any of these sociopaths/narcissistic/authoritarian assholes.
We never have to give in to their demands ,do things their way,depend on them or anything else if we have each other. We can speak up or act if WE think something a boss or teacher is doing is wrong..We can say NO you CAN'T DO THAT to us...and if we stand with each other in taking the risk to stand up, we can back it up with any FORCE required to MAKE THEM STOP hurting and abusing people not like themselves and the world.

Martin Luther king was one side of the coin that FORCED civil rights to be recognized,Alot of people focus on him and exclude the other force operating to get civil rights recognized also,The Black Panthers .They were ready to fight and kill for their rights to be treated as human beings and to vote,if peaceful persuasion failed to be heeded.And they HAD to fight and show that they had FORCE to back up Martin Luther's dream.

The first and most obvious condition is that non-violence should carry is the moral weight that makes violent retaliation unconscionable. If the people you are fighting against have no morality , feel no shame,guilt,remorse or fear of you, than non-violence cannot and will not solve the problem.It will just get people killed.That is not non violence, it is stupidity.Prey behavior.Giving the bullies permission to abuse MORE.


We can stop them if we do it together, if we can each learn the value of disobedience,learn to say NO,learn to take the RISK of doing the right thing,even if it upsets things and breaks the status quo or offends. We have to stand up with each other in the face of a bully be it a domestic tyrant or a corporation.And if we can just stop pretending bad people want to be 'good'people when they've had a pattern of being predatory for YEARS, if we just give them another chance,because truth is after years of getting away with it,they don't want to change or they can't.We would be misplacing our pity giving it to whom caused the suffering at the expense of those harmed.And this I think is morally wrong.

These personalities are NOT LIKE OURS.They can do stuff we would not do because they are different.Give up that solipsist notion we are all the same,because we are NOT. We have to act on all levels to see these bullies as the squatters occupying positions of power they should not be trusted with, and the tyrants that they ARE,We can't afford to play nice anymore with ruthless people,we have to use our claws to fight them to tear them apart and the toxic social structures they built to serve themselves down,time is growing short the planet cannot sustain this level of abuse and consuming without the ecosystem breaking down..These bad people they not only want control but to destroy.They WANT a world without LOVE and without life that is happy,healthy and diverse and respectful of all our relations..

I know it sounds so cold blooded to fight them lock them up or even kill them..But some things cannot be tolerated by a society IF we want to survive.
These abusive people they are tyrants,bullies, they love death,trauma and suffering and imposing it on others in all it's forms,mental death,personal death,bodily death,planet death.They get off on the destruction of anything good,unique,giving, gentle, caring,loving or alive. Maybe because inside they are dead already,cold blooded in the sense of what makes us humane and able to love,is not there in them.

That lack is the reason they cannot be trusted to care about life and see it as the fragile,unique, precious yet tenuous thing full of potential and diversity that it is .They are dead inside morally and are driven by their own blind toxic nature,to overtake and replicate themselves in others or invade their lives and hijack them, like an ebola virus or a toxic algae bloom,that traumatizes and kills all it touches .So do authoritarians/narcissists/and sociopaths.Bad people can never be trusted to protect the vulnerable,beautiful,creative and different from the ravages of nature or bad humans,at all.Nor can they share what belongs to all of us,the land,air,water,or the fruits of our collective labors without spoiling it or "owning it"and depriving someone from touching it .. for all they want is to dominate everything use it than destroy it so no one else can "have" some.In this world there is plenty for all to have enough,if we all share it with each other.No one needs to be suffering because of the few mean,abusive and greedy among us.

http://myherooftheday.com/?p=219
http://starbucksgossip.typepad.com/_/2007/03/starbucks_...

[HEyHEY]

1. Actually the real reason was the obviously homebrewed bottle of wine you brought to dinner

[undergroundpanther]

4. Hey hey

I don't Drink.I do not like being drunk. You are just being an ass.

If you, don't have anything useful or insightful to add to this thread and are just going to be rude and snark which any asshole can do..Leave. You are not welcome.

I guess you failed to see you are doing a great job in demonstrating the very problem of personalities I am speaking of in my OP.

hey hey =epic fail!!

[HEyHEY]

6. WOW!

You're dense. I was making a friendly, lighthearted jab at you. And you bully me and start acting in the exact manner your post is condeming? Welcome to hypocriteville.

[undergroundpanther]

32. Umm

How was I supposed to infer that by type alone?

I have dealt with the most rude assholes,they jab and poke to provoke.
I could not tell what your intention was.

And why poke? I didn't expect this thread to become a joke, did you?

Anyways no harm no foul..carry on!

But please let me know it's not to provoke next time.

[HEyHEY]

33. Of course I wouldn't do it as a real insult

What the hell have you and I ever fought about? I have no reason to do that.

UP you gotta relax sometimes. Of course I wasn't expecting the thread to be a joke either... but there's elements and views and different ways of thinking and acting... we're all different and act accordingly.

[Xipe Totec]

2. I wanted to understand your point,

But I could not get past the impenetrable wall of text.

Just saying....

[undergroundpanther]

5. Read it slower

Some of my posts are long because I am trying to explain complex things,and linking together many concepts. If it is too much text for you to read at once,why not read it in chunks, bookmark it and take your time,there's no rush..Ever read a book? That is far more text to read than reading this post and the OP. Do you read things longer than two paragraphs , or not? And why is that MY problem.It is NOT my problem it is yours.

So,instead of trying to be rude to me,Why not be responsible,either a: don't read it and go to simpler threads or the lounge or b: bookmark it read and it in chunks,over time or c: Try a little harder to read it. or d: leave the comments for people who CAN read it and glean what you can from that
See It's Simple!

[OwnedByFerrets]

9. Most people will NOT take the time to digest that much

dry info....no matter how much you point simpleton fingers at them. I'm sure you have good points in your OP, but after reading how you disregard others, they will be ignored now.

[undergroundpanther]

26. Some will read it

Some won't bother..It's not my call to make.
You can click off this thread at any time ya know just like everybody else.
But whoever reads my OP or ignores it is not my concern..I will not tolerate being insulted on a thread I started for trying to express a difficult subject and my thoughts on the OP, just because a few find it too complex,the wrong style or too long and get all defensive and rude to me about it.

Anyone who is not being rude to me can ask me to explain it or simplify things for them they don't quite get and I can try to do that.

My OP was not about you or attacking you.If it applies somehow and that upset you,well that's not my problem is it?
Look,there are TONS of people writing on this board why not go read their posts you might like them better than mine,I dunno...

And this idea that I should keep my thoughts short and simple just for the ones who think they can't read it,that is a bit narcissistic I think.
The boundary issue here is don't be an asshole to me because you didn't like my post.
I will maintain my boundaries regardless of what anyone thinks or does.

Geez.

[Jeremy101]

29. noce pic

says it all

[HEyHEY]

30. hey look a sock puppet set up with my first name!

[Xipe Totec]

10. Typically, long posts have a summary

to let the reader know where the post is leading.

You might try being kinder and gentler to your readers...

That is, if you're really interested in getting your point across.

Just saying.

It's up to you, but chastising the readers is not a good way to encourage them.

[HEyHEY]

13. self delete

AN apology upthread indicates the classy thing to do is take down the flamage

[Xipe Totec]

17. Damn straight, Bro!

How are you, you big Canuk?

[HEyHEY]

19. good, good

election is coming and the big question is "Will that assbag, Harper, get a majority?"

[Xipe Totec]

20. Well, he's angling for the fascist vote

PM Announces Government of Canada Will Extend Jurisdiction over Arctic Waters

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=2248

Ya nevah know...

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

23. He totally is. See?

[HEyHEY]

25. where did you get that pic?!

[PeaceNikki]

27. uh.... you don't remember the weekend we spent together?

hrmph. It's like that, huh?

[HEyHEY]

28. HEyHEY says a lot of things!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undergroundpanther]

34. Well

I just wrote it.I had the thoughts so I put them down, when I posted it it was what it was. I don't understand why a summary is so important because anyone can bookmark it and read it at their leisure.I don't know if I could summarize a complex thought I just had on the fly because of the way my mind works..
I do long posts, often .Have been doing them here since I came here.

[Xipe Totec]

36. Well

Carry on then.

Without me.

See ya!

[JVS]

81. Write it shorter.

[grannie4peace]

3. i just got home from canvassing for obama

and the man i was partnered with said he had just read a book about sociopaths and that sarah palin was one. you have to stop them from hurting others , i think

[ShortnFiery]

7. Makes sense. However, the constellation of traits within "personality" are complex

and interactive.

I'm a dead-on SOCIOPATH when it comes to "sports" but lean left of center in the arena of "politics."

It's not that simple, but the true knuckle-dragging authoritarian loving type of GOPers are loud and proud - they make a clear impression.

[undergroundpanther]

16. Yes they are complex

and interactive.BUT Where distinctions happen and can be observed and reveal more about the personalities and the dynamics going on,are around BOUNDARIES.


I'm a dead-on SOCIOPATH when it comes to "sports"

Interesting you said that,because aren't sports all about playing within a set of BOUNDARIES and rules?If there were no boundaries and rules how would you have a game at all?

but lean left of center in the arena of "politics."
Another reference to boundaries..Maybe it's a theme? I dunno.
It's intriguing to think about tho.


>It's not that simple, but the true knuckle-dragging authoritarian >loving type of GOPers are loud and proud - they make a clear >impression.

Yes I know this is not"simple" I said that in my OP
But for the Gop'ers I agree and I think it is ,because they think there will be NO repercussions on them for breaking societies boundaries(like that ass at a McCain rally yelling kill Obama he's a terri-st or some such spew..) or breaking the rules,so they let their true selves be seen,they drop the mask when they believe they have no need to pretend they care what we think of them.And so the truth comes out..
Ya know what I mean..

[ShortnFiery]

35. Yes, you do play within the rules, but you play like there's no tomorrow.

Ergo complexity ... perhaps I should qualify, my mindset is TO WIN. However, not at the point of skirting the rules because, to me, that's not winning.

So damn, you make a fine point, I'm not even a socio-path fully at SPORTS.

But I sure as hell LOVE TO WIN. Perhaps that makes me more empathetic of Hillary and Bill Clinton.

[undergroundpanther]

42. You are closer

To understanding the OP I wrote than most.

Yes Sometimes you have to play like there is no tomorrow because one day if things keep going as they are,and the same people keep getting away with terrible things breaking rules violating boundaries shitting on the social contract,and getting away with it, the rules will no longer have any meaning and if we don't realize that is the GOAL of toxic people to eliminate the rules and rig the game by having two sets of rules, that unfairly bind us,there won't be a tomorrow.This one we have to win. We have to learn to detect and to fight the abusers,even if it means we have to kill a few, because there is more at stake than our own lives here, now..much more..

[undergroundpanther]

8. You are right grannie

and I agree Palin and McCain are both toxic dangerous personality types,and predatory parasites, big time.

The obedient yet authoritarian thugs at McCain's rallies that say shit like kill Obama or that he's a terrorist I am pretty certain are part of the kind of people the GoP and McCain and Palin and bullies like them exploit (like human shields) to attack for their leader , some of the more authoritarian obedient people in the Gop crowds seem to be willing to kill on command for their "leader",that is the people like McCain/Palin use to hold onto power, this symptomatic social issue they have is synergistic,it truly operates almost like a "hive mind".
It's really important we recognize these kinds of dynamics.

[PeaceNikki]

11. Sorry, I don't understand this.

Could you please include one of those hilarious cat pictures with internet slang?

[HEyHEY]

12. "hang in there, friday's coming"?

[PeaceNikki]

15. .

[JVS]

82. Here is a version in Lolcat-ese

http://lolcattranslator.com/translate.php?lolsite=http%...

[Kip Humphrey]

14. Its the hunters vs the gatherers... And the hunters are obsolete.

[undergroundpanther]

31. You got it

And if the"hunters" can't get over themselves,and stop it they will become the hunted.Self preservation and preservation of those we love,and the ideals we cherish our boundaries and social contract, will override the will and demands of a few bullies and their sycophants..I just hope it stops the sick shit, and suffering that this kind of dominated culture creates.

[tonycinla]

58. not really

The main thought that entered my mind after reading the piece is what happens if we get rid of all of our alpha males and the other side does not?I know this is reducing such a complex piece to simple terms .I believe there are always going to be a certain percentage 0f alpha males in the world,it is biology.Has the writer ever heard of males that have an extra y chromosome?If not please research it.We all have to live in THE REAL WORLD,we can try to improve it but there is only so much you can do to alter human nature i.e.global warming.It is going to be interesting to see how Obama,a beta male if there ever was one,is going to handle the alpha males of the world.I am of middle eastern descent and keep in touch with people there and have for years.It is my understanding that countries and parties that are not friendly to us i.e.Syria,Iran,Hamas,Hizbullah have plans in place to make some moves right after Obama is in office that will be detrimental to U.S.interests and benefit their interests in the area.By the time we go to "talk" to these parties they will have mugged us and our wallet will be in their back pocket.My point is unfortunately in many circumstances when living on the face of the earth you have to be a mean s.o.b. or you actually make thing worse.The Russians have a great saying for it"act like a lamb and you will soon meet a wolf."

[PeaceNikki]

59. Wow. You have the same paragraph structure/inability to space after punctuation as the OP.

You related?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undergroundpanther]

65. I understand your argument

I should have made a distiction.

There are fake alphas.And Genuine Alphas.
Real Alphas do not prey on people who are not a threat.
Real Alphas know what a real threat is. They don't go after random or innocent vulnerable people and bully them,they look for the real threats and take those seriously.

Since you used a wolf/lamb analogy ,We have to be like lambs to each other and be as a pack of wolves to the psychopaths when they commit violent crimes.

A psychopath is a fake alpha, with the airs and the mask of a "leader",but he isn't one.The psychopath does not have the wisdom,ethics and empathy to temper his actions and the courage to do what is required to keep the game fair. He just abuses, exploits and manipulates to get power..

A real alpha does not have to justify his 'status' by dominating children or rape.Psychopaths masquerading as "alpha" attack people that are not even a threat to have power them to act out a fantasy of being powerful.The psychopath's power is gotten by illegitamate means, by breaking the rules..He is a a fake and therefore can never be trusted to play the game fairly or safely and so the real alphas must always be watching out for fakes operating out of bounds within the boundaries.

But the real alphas have looked the other way for too long and the rulebooks have been twisted..And nobody knows what to do now.And things are getting crazy and people are being hurt.And some people do not have a grip on what the danger is.


The legit role of an alpha in human terms is to protect people from harm and exploitation and to teach others the rules of the social contract so they in turn can become genuine alphas teaching others how to be genuine alphas and protect those who are not alphas to be self reliant and confident and live to the best of their potentials.
Be a wolf and a lamb.Able to speak in the language of empathy and in the language of domination and submission.

A psychopath is a coward and hurts anyone he thinks could be prey or a threat to his ego even when they are not, because he knows his power is fake..It is time everyone learned to see through the mask of authority, power and dominance, or victim that psychopaths put on to get away with the shit they do.

[marions ghost]

86. Obama--"a beta male?"

ie. a wimp. now that is really funny

Just because he doesn't resort to bully tactics? He doesn't beat his chest and run around grabbing food from the other monkeys.

There's a type of strength that doesn't use excessive domination and force. Many examples in history. Obama is one of those smart Alphas. They have a different style. Do you think he's had an easy life? Obama is more than capable of making decisions about the correct use of force when necessary.

As for those males with extra "y", they usually end up in prison...hardly a plus in evolutionary terms.
Not relevant. Put all the "alpha males" (and females who imitate Alpha males) you admire so much in a ring and let them knock each other out. Let the rest of us use our larger brains for a change.

[piedmont]

76. I hunt, and I'm not a sociopath.

So does mt brother, and he's not a sociopath. Most hunters I know aren't sociopaths, either. I doubt you know many hunters.

[undergroundpanther]

91. I have hunted too

What I am taking about is coward hunters.
The kind of hunter that would shoot a quail in a cage,or kill a real hunter like a wolf as long as that wolf can't run away or fight back for it's own life.A real hunter respects the prey.Sociopaths respect nothing.

You know psychopath assholes with guns who call themselves hunters but are really just assholes like Cheney or Palin or Ted Nugent.

[hfojvt]

18. ach, a dualism

I am sure there are some ruthless game players, many of whom only really impact their own small circle.

"Everyone else.Those who can get along together without exploitation at someone else's expense.non predatory,cooperative,shares tasks, isn't threatened by diversity, welcomes changes,understands egalitarianism,respects relationships and obligations,shares,and loves,and helps those less strong and fortunate,the leaders of these cultures are there to make each person a leader of them self."

As far as that, I think I am more cynical, I think most of humanity, and nature for that matter, is quite willing to exploit. All I have to do is watch my dogs when only one of them has a treat. I think most of humanity is somewhat predatory, uncooperative, doesn't share either work or rewards, is threatened by diversity, does not welcome changes, and does not love. Nobody's perfect.

You talk about egalitarian societies based on kinship, and that is kind of the thing. They do not accept diversity, only their own kin. Try being from a neighboring village, or a stranger and see what happens. Outsiders generally are not gonna be adopted or welcomed. We respect relationships and obligations, generally, because there are personal and social consequences for not doing so. That is supposed to be a hallmark of Democracy, that even Senators, Presidents, DAs, supreme court justices, Governors, etc. face consequences if they violate the rules that have been agreed upon. Violence is typically a way for the few or the powerful or the ruthless to control the many. A vast majority does not need it.

[ShortnFiery]

37. "I think I am more cynical"

You and me both - cynical ... and myself, a little jaded. People are not inherently self-actualized. You have to consider not only their "personality" but also their "environment."

Those who are innately narcissistic and sociopathic will rise to the top via exploitation.

It is ... what IT IS.

"I think most of humanity is somewhat predatory, uncooperative, doesn't share either work or rewards, is threatened by diversity, does not welcome changes, and does not love. Nobody's perfect."

[undergroundpanther]

39. dualism...

>As far as that, I think I am more cynical, I think most of >humanity, and nature for that matter, is quite willing to exploit. >All I have to do is watch my dogs when only one of them has a >treat. I think most of humanity is somewhat predatory, >uncooperative, doesn't share either work or rewards, is threatened >by diversity, does not welcome changes, and does not love. Nobody's perfect.


Yeah I know nobody's perfect.. but you know we have a mind a heart and we could choose to disobey that urge to exploit others,I think we could do much better than we do now.Yeah our culture trains us to exploit or be exploited but just because we are trained that way does not mean we have to obey it.We do not have to be predators of each other if we decide NOT to be one. We can THINK before we do. Yeah we will never be perfect but we can be better people.

>You talk about egalitarian societies based on kinship, and that is >kind of the thing. They do not accept diversity, only their own >kin.
Yeah I know some were like that Some were NOT like that.It all depends on what you define as your kin.


>Try being from a neighboring village, or a stranger and see what >happens. Outsiders generally are not gonna be adopted or welcomed.

This hostility to outsiders did not always apply to every tribe in every place or time you know. When the people that came over here from overseas to America they were welcomed.And because the settlers were predatory and just had gone through witch hunts and crusades they were particularly hypocritically exploitative and they destroyed the cultures that welcomed them.And they wore out their welcome.Repeat that over all the explorers and preadory cultures sure the tribes mistrust outsiders they had a reason to after meeting predatory conquerers and missionaries and thieves from predatory cultures.
http://www.wise.virginia.edu/history/wciv1/civ1ref/colu...


>We respect relationships and obligations, generally, because there >are personal and social consequences for not doing so.

That might apply to you,but for me I nurture relationships and protect boundaries and share what I have because I LIKE to.I WANT to,I have CHOSEN to.I have done many things for others I was not obligated to do,and there were no threats of consequences if I didn't do it..I just did it, because I wanted to do it. I bet I'm not the only one too.

>Violence is typically a way for the few or the powerful or the >ruthless to control the many. A vast majority does not need it.

And why do the powerful need such threats and rules and such to behave in ways most of us already know? Because they choose more often than not to grab power precisely to exploit ethical people. It is because of WHOM they are. And we can choose to remove that type of predatory personality from power..IF we chose to,together.We can recreate another culture where predatory parasites are not allowed or tolerated around places of power or wealth or anywhere else..We can apply consequences to those few who have no conscience,basically target them based on their actions and how they violate boundaries. We don't have to tolerate abusers.

We can make other choices.

And yes I am a dualist. You cannot meld with what seeks your destruction.
http://www.newdualism.org/

[hfojvt]

51. by dualism, I am not talking about being an ally with a snake

I am talking about a false way of looking at the world as black and white, predators and prey. So, yeah, I could name some times I have helped even random strangers with no thought of any reward outside of a little self-righteous satisfaction and future bragging rights. I could also name times where I have been a little bit of a sh*t-weasel. I am certainly not always willing to share things I have worked hard for with people who often seem like users and mooches. So I fall in the middle, maybe only 70th percentile on the scale of generosity/sainthood.

True that some of our worst impulses have been trained into us, sometimes by good intentioned parents doing the best they can, other times by people with so many of their own issues that they probably should not have kids, but I don't think that there's 295 million good-hearted sharers who could create some sort of erewhon if we only rose up and guillotined the 5 million borderline psychos in our midst.

"We don't have to tolerate abusers" sounds intolerant, and like any zero tolerance policy may end up with you ruthlessly attacking somebody who is mostly decent except you caught them on a bad day in a bad situation.

That's doubtless a caricature of what you were/are saying but it's my best quick summary on a Sunday afternoon before I goto mop floors and hopefully avoid my dsyfunctional boss.

[undergroundpanther]

54. I wonder how much exposure you

Have had to psychopaths and abuse? You could be operating in a just world mentality.
We don't have to tolerate abusers" sounds intolerant,

It is I don't like being hit,humiliated,have my home ruined,or whatever by an abusive person.

and like any zero tolerance policy may end up with you ruthlessly attacking somebody who is mostly decent except you caught them on a bad day in a bad situation.

I know people have bad days, OK.
Let me clarify..

You don't seem to understand.. I mean the people who have LIFELONG PATTERNS of Abusive relations for YEARS.People that go out and start shit every day all the time,deliberatly to hurt someone. Habitually aggressive sadistic people that never seem to ever have a GOOD day.Psychopaths are always on the take and are always making excuses for the bad shit they do no matter how bad it is.

BTW there is no justification for beating someone to a pulp who is no threat to you.But bullies/psychopaths they beat people senseless just because they can and choose to do it.And they do it over and over and over again and do not care or feel remorse for the persons they beat or torture.
I think that kind of behavior that lasts for years is much more serious and dangerous than a person having a "a bad day".

But no matter how BAD your day was it does not give you the right to take it out on people not attacking you or harming you.You can't go home and beat and rape the wife and beat the kids and kick the dog until he's dead because YOU had a bad day.Most people understand this is disgustingly wrong and it isn't a way of life for them.

But there are others who choose to do it everyday because they can.


DO you see THE DIFFERENCE here?

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. There was a fascinating article on tribe.net, some months ago, on the subject of psychopathy,

but the site is down at the moment. The URL is:

http://www.tribe.net/index.html

Though it looks like it may not get you straight to the article.

[Sheets of Easter]

38. I glazed over everything until you started advocating killing people.

[undergroundpanther]

40. Some people

won't stop killing and abusing people,because they are Dangerous.What would YOU do with them? Keep trusting them? Keep them in a cage?

Would you keep trying to rehab them as they play you as a sucker and someone gets raped or killed again?

Some people even though they are not trying to stab you personally,would do it if given the opportunity to.How would you keep someone like that from stabbing people,in prison he stabs guards and other prisoners,what would you do Isolation? Isolation is TORTURE. Torture is ALWAYS wrong.Death is not torture. Death sometimes right but most of the time it is wrong.
Here read about isolation does to a person and tell me it's "humane".I spent 18 months in isolation (they called it"theraputic").Knowing how it is, if I had a choice between isolation or death I'd choose to die.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broa... /


What would YOU do to stop this hypothetical maniac? I really want to know.I don't like the notion of killing people,but if it comes down to sliding into fascism or killing off the few doing the coup against the people I'd rather see the coup dead than another mass murder operation like Hitler did.Understand?

Sometimes, like it or not you have to do something bad to do something good.

Really having ethics and morals is never simple.Never easy. And they are not always nice.Sometimes things have to be done that are unpleasant.Sometimes there is no other way because the person creating the problem gives you no other choice. It sucks, but reality sucks too.

[PeaceNikki]

41. Wait, so... who do you want dead?

People who hate you?

[undergroundpanther]

44. no

I want the people that refuse to stop raping torturing,abusing,exploiting the people that are
NOT raping torturing,abusing,or exploiting people ,dead.

Sociopaths,authoritarians,narcissists,the kind of people that have no conscience ,they know right from wrong but don't care about that,and when they torture others and get caught they feel no shame about torture they are mad they got caught, and because they feel no remorse when they deliberately harm ,someone random and innocent,who is no threat,they cannot be made to be not dangerous to others. I want those few people, if they cannot be contained,without torture(isolation) dead.

[HEyHEY]

45. Isn't that kind of targetting the mentally ill?

I mean, everyone's born and everyone deserves a chance to change, right?

[undergroundpanther]

48. Psychopathy is NOT mental illness

or a psychiatric injury(trauma)

It is a axis 2 diagnosis.

Like mental retardation.
Say a person is mentally retarded, no amount of therapy, drugs or rehabilitation will raise their IQ higher.Mental retardation is part of who that person is.

Psychopathy like mental retardation is part of who that person is.They have no consience .

Psychopathy can be detected in kids as young as age 2.

Now if it is a young kid with psychopathy every effort should be made to help him.If he becomes an adult and is still dangerous,well..you tried.

But if they are an adult,they have long histories of doing awful crimes against people and animals long before they get caught.
They are not likely to grow out of the problem after so long.

Mental illness can be helped with therapy,drugs and rehabilitation,people with mental illness and psychiatric injuries can get insight,they can get better with the right treatments and time..

Psychopaths cannot get better with any interventions therapies or drugs they avoid therapy because they think there is nothing wrong with them..
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002792.html
This article explains the differences
http://www.zimbio.com/Psychopathy+-+Sociopathy/articles...

[PeaceNikki]

49. Should we try to diagnose this in infants and preemptively kill them before they hurt anyone?

[undergroundpanther]

63. No

Try to help them,try to neutralize the danger,try until they are adults.

If upon becoming an adult,they continue to do crimes after being helped with the best that society can offer,if it isn't violent observe and track the offenses they do, and keep a history. If they become violent,get caught killing raping or torturing somebody, there is a record of past treatment attempts and interventions,and if the pattern of a criminal career is clear,kill them.

[LanternWaste]

87. A rose by any other name is still Eugenics.

Social Eugenics by any other name.

Simply depressing to know that even we on DU have advocates stating "they" need to be killed to keep "us" safe... at least, that's what the historical justifications seem to be more often than not. And it seems that (more often than not), those who advocated killing "them" were absolute in their righteousness, absolute in their defense of who should live and who should die.

Even in the states, it has led to advocacy of compulsory sterilization of patients in state mental institutions (VA, 1927). "State laws were written in the late 1800s and early 1900s to prohibit marriage and force sterilization of the mentally ill in order to prevent the "passing on" of mental illness to the next generation. By 1945 over 45,000 mentally ill individuals in the United States had been forcibly sterilized. All in all, 60,000 Americans were sterilized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Eugenics_in_the_U...

"...and if the pattern of a criminal career is clear,kill them."

Sometimes "they" are Jews. Sometimes "they" are undesirables. Sometimes "they" are 'not quite human'. Sometimes "they" are sociopaths. Sometimes "they" are minority races/religions. Sometimes, they are even "us". I suppose there are a lot of people who have absolute knowledge of the "pattern of a career criminal", but between you and I, I'd bet neither one of us are a member of that esteemed community.

Those who maintain an absolute and rigid social dogmatism, whether they are Eugenicists like Richard Lynn and Gregory Stocks, or simple fanatical preachers like the Reverend Washington Gladden, frighten me.

A rose by any other name is still...

[undergroundpanther]

96. I know what eugenics is.

I know slaughtering innocent people because of their race gender and orientations are wrong.

BUT the difference here is
psychopaths are NOT innocent or harmless people in reality.They have criminal histories and trails of broken lives anyone can see.
Some random innocent Jew in Hitlers horror show most likely DID NOT have a criminal history and many abused broken people who suffered at his hands.
Meanwhile Goebbels and the rest of Hitlers gang were established thugs from their youth,and they used "normal" people most like themselves to commit the atrocities..

I ask you, if you had a chance to kill hitler and saw his history of crime before all those innocent people were murdered in the death camps,as you saw him rising to power would you kill him? or would you pretend he is just a bit misguided and pity him and let him continue on his merry evil way??

I'd kill him.Because his behavior proves what he is.

[PeaceNikki]

46. oh.

Like who?

[undergroundpanther]

53. a person

who was caught raping a three year old, who has no remorse and would do it again if given a chance. Or someone caught beating their spouse until the spouse's face was destroyed,and who has no remorse and would do it again if given a chance.A person who kidnapped people and confined them and made them sex slaves and who has no remorse and would do it again if given a chance.They shouldn't be alive after doing such things.

I would consider a Ceo who through his greed or abuse of power ruined thousands of lives,Think Bhopal India,The owners of that company were not ashamed of what happened. They did not care about those affected by the poisons they make.The people in charge of Union Carbide exploited India and harmed untold numbers of people there,And they have YET to compensate all they victimized.The People running Union Carbide/Dow are Successful psychopaths.
Successful psychopaths are as dangerous as any other psychopath they have the same problem.They don't care.and they commit their crimes from behind a corporation, church or other institution.


Psychopaths succeed in conventional society in large measure because few of us grasp that they are fundamentally different from ourselves. We assume that they, too, care about other people's feelings. This makes it easier for them to "play" us. Although they lack empathy, they develop an actor's expertise in evoking ours. While they don't care about us, "they have an element of emotional intelligence, of being able to see our emotions very clearly and manipulate them," says Michael Maccoby, a psychotherapist who has consulted for major corporations.

...most horror stories of workplace psychopathy remain the stuff of frightened whispers. Insiders in the New York media business say the publisher of one of the nation's most famous magazines broke the nose of one of his female sales reps in the 1990s. But he was considered so valuable to the organization that the incident didn't impede his career.

http://www.supremebeings.org/content/view/31/26 /
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001998.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0505-09.htm
http://www.csrwire.com/News/2289.html

[PeaceNikki]

55. o

So, you want capital punishment for more crimes or are you advocating/envisioning vigilante justice to accomplish this?

[undergroundpanther]

60. I want to lessen the amounts of torture,or abuse or rape

and other crimes done by a few people to go down .Psychopaths commit a staggering amount of crimes compared to the rest of the population.They do not stop.If we play nice and give them therapy they get worse if we lock them up it is like a cage if we kill them ooh that is bad so we can't do anything about it can we? ,shall we just let psychopaths abuse people? When does a nice sounding ideology become suicidal pacifism?

I wish there was a way that worked to stop them without caging or killing them. But there isn't.Reality is not forthcoming with answers that pacifists would prefer. Meanwhile people are being hurt because of misplaced pity.
We all need a safer culture. Our culture is sick ,where 1 in 4 women are raped before age 18, often by some bully who doesn't care or care to change or does not even desire to stop hurting others.
Something has got to change. What we are doing is not working.


Whether or not they commit murder, psychopaths abound among the criminal population. Although psychopaths are estimated to represent only 1% of the total population, they make up approximately 25% of prison inmates. In addition, the number of psychopaths that re-offend is extremely high. More than 80% of psychopathic offenders will re-offend violently within six years after their release, compared with 20% of non-psychopathic offenders (Sanmartin, Psychopaths and Serial Killers).

http://www.scinet.cc/articles/psychopathy/psychopath.ht...

[PeaceNikki]

61. You didn't answer my question.

Do you want capital punishment for more crimes or are you advocating/envisioning vigilante justice to accomplish this?

[undergroundpanther]

66. It depends

I do advocate capital punishment for severe violent crimes like child murder/ rape ,adult rape, torture, and tyranny.
I think torture and rape are ALWAYS wrong and cannot be justified EVER.

I think if you see a violent crime occur,don't by-stand, there should be no penalty for killing an attacker to stop the attack.Maybe trauma counseling for the survivors but no legal repercussions.

If a violent person comes into your house or where you reside and threatens or attempts to harm you,a friend ,a lover ,a child,a pet,you should have no penalties for killing the intruder.

If a person is being beaten by an abusive spouse and the abuser is killed by the victim or an observer there should be NO legal repercussions.For the spouse who killed the abuser no repercussions beyond showing a history of domestic abuse on the spouses part. And trauma counseling.

If there is no history of abuse and a spouse is killed it is investigated as any other murder and taken to trial.

Is that clear enough ?

[PeaceNikki]

85. No, that's not "clear" at all. In fact, that's as batshitty as it gets.

In your utopia, you could invite me into your home, kill me, claim that I threatened your cat and walk away.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Sheets of Easter]

50. You need help. Seriously. I don't mean that flippantly, either.

[undergroundpanther]

71. You need to grow up and I don't mean that flippantly either.

[JVS]

83. Is that when you perked up with interest?

[Richardo]

43. Because some of us write coma-inducing, single-spaced, judgemental, didactic screeds?

[undergroundpanther]

47. I am judgmental

I do not like abusers,pedophiles,tyrants,torturers,rapists,sadists. I do not want them to be around hurting people, animals or anything.

Why? do you like them? Do you find tyrants torturers pedophiles abusers of power are OK with you?

I am very judgmental against people with personality types that make it so they never learn to stop their crimes, never will care about those they made victims,bad people who would if given a chance would torture me if I was in the wrong place wrong time, or would torture anyone else..Hell yes I can say I hate them.

[undergroundpanther]

70. Answer is simple..

DON'T READ my " coma-inducing, single-spaced, judgmental, didactic screed" Ok.You know how to click OFF a thread right? So go read something else.Be an adult.

What is it with some of you? Do you really need every post to be spoon fed to you in perfect grammar condensed into in short ez to digest paragraphs.Or are you just stupid.

[tblue]

52. You made some good points

but I will admit the density of the OP overwhelms me. I don't mind reading something long and involved, but I got kinda lost. Sorry.

It might help, and I want to put this in as respectful a manner as possible, if you would please put spaces after your commas. It's distracting. It looks like it was copied from another format, and somebody forgot to put in some spaces. And when there is quote-unquote 'sloppy' editing, it makes it hard to take the work seriously. I don't mean to insult you or hurt your feelings, but I thought you should know.

Please don't get me wrong. I want to understand what you're saying, but it is not that easy.

[undergroundpanther]

56. I'll try to do that

For me it pours out fast and I am not a professional writer.I don't see what you are seeing.

Could you give me an example of the differences? Two bits of the same writing done the way I do and the correct way,so I can compare them and maybe see what's going on with me??

[EstimatedProphet]

57. You might consider Nietzsche

"Whomever goes to fight monsters should take care not to become a monster
himself. And when you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss stares back
into you."

[undergroundpanther]

69. I know that line

And you know what,I know my shadow,I know the dark the light and the shades in between,and that is why I can tell real monsters from fake.
I have met them.
Take your yin yang mentality and spin it,around you will see a rainbow appear from the black and white static haze of this monism,an ethereal a holographic glimmer of things yet to be but so close you can almost become it,just out of your mind's eye.

Until you stop fearing fake monsters within and begin to discern the real ones in reality ,Nietzsche matters too much,At some point there are no more philosophies to guide you,no more signs to point the way and reassure you you are appropriate. When you are walking the razor edge between worlds you can observe from many angles and places within 1 argument..If I was to attempt to write my thoughts out fully it would not be possible to write it for words lack and lie they cannot convey the depth of perception only imitate it.Mimic it.
A Morse code trying to be a symphony.

But there are things in life that go beyond good evil ,black white and go beyond the monism of all is one,there are things that to understand you have to bleed it out from the very heart of your soul,you have to face it and endure it for any real type of spark of consciousness within to see reality laid bare .You must learn to not fear the monsters in the shadows of your mind ,the abyss ,the dark or the light and realize we cannot truly merge with that which seeks our suffering and death unless we have CHOSEN to nor can we run away and pretend it isn't dangerous when vulnerability and power is fused when it is abused. Looking into a mirror only goes so far,sometimes you have to put the mirror down,realize it's not about the self, and look at reality let go trust your being,and cry and writhe and scream at the beautiful horror it all is.And find a way to take that and put it in words and bring back a little flame of what you have thought,felt,experienced into the cave,and try again to tear them away from the shadows on the wall.

[Raksha]

78. You should make this post into a poem...

because it already is one, or at least three-quarters of the way there. You wouldn't need to do much to it, just smooth out the rough edges a little bit. There is so much truth and fire in it, I thought you were channeling the first time I read it. And then I realized it was a poem.

[undergroundpanther]

94. I dunno what it was

Brain on paper.I guess.

[EstimatedProphet]

84. Spoken just like someone who has the abyss staring right out of them.

[Psyop Samurai]

62. My Dear Panther,

I want to reply before reading the thread; a quick glance showed some frivolous responses, and I don't want that to ruin the impact of your post.

You are, dear soul, way ahead of the curve. And I'm right there with you in so many ways, yet, sadly, have become resigned to isolation. If only there were people I could talk to on this level.

It would take days to respond or amplify the many points in your post, as I do not have the greatest facility in writing, or, more precisely, externalizing my inner thoughts. That's why I don't post much, and why many of your OP's pass by without comment, (though often with a recommend).

I hear you..., and how to begin manifesting this awareness on a broader scale (not just our small personal lives)? You at least have your writing, which, while a lot like throwing it out to the universe, is bound to produce an occasional "hit".

DUer blues90 had a thoughtful post yesterday that put me in a contemplative mood, random ramblings from an old boomer, and, while it seems strange to quote myself, my response is in line with our topic here, and I don't think I can summon a lot more right now.

Our short term objective is clear...

Elect Obama.

Long term, we must develop immunity to psychopaths...

...their methods made utterly and incontestably transparent.

And that knowledge must become mother's milk to successive generations.

Unfortunately, this will require a leap of consciousness which has yet to approach critical mass. Therefor, we're in the unenviable position which all those who came before us were: merely keeping the seed alive. Not acceptable, considering the vast challenges in front of us, but there it is.

I met a lovely Danish family recently, who had moved to the US ten years back. They were delightful and very aware. The young son (20's), who had lived in Berkeley for a while, characterized the populace there as dazed and unbelieving, as in "we thought we had won all these battles".

My reply to him was that we HAD won them; that what you see has been accomplished by stealth and deception by psychopaths in a rigged game.

You present so much, in such an uncompromising way, that I think people may be overwhelmed. Sometimes I am even, and I consider your posts a vital beacon. Things of a harsh or retributive nature may seem especially foreign, though I appreciate where you're coming from, and could offer pertinent examples where the appropriate response to psychopaths is to kill. Still, I recall taking exception to your stance on capital punishment a while back. Everything exists within a multi-layered context, and the fact is that the state as now constituted could never be entrusted with such powers.

Thanks much for this post, and bookmarking.

[gopbuster]

64. I was contemplating a response along these same lines.....

"And that knowledge must become mother's milk to successive generations.

Unfortunately, this will require a leap of consciousness which has yet to approach critical mass. Therefor, we're in the unenviable position which all those who came before us were: merely keeping the seed alive. Not acceptable, considering the vast challenges in front of us, but there it is."



The key words I had in mind were generational, and critical mass.

America can still be defined as an experiment. We are still in the process of fine tuning through our mistakes, misdeeds and virtues. We have come a long way since 1776, the Civil War, The Depression, Civil Rights movement, foreign wars, recessions, bubbles and busts. Through all of these eras and generations the real changes came when the issues at hand reached mass consensus to force change.

Generations come and they go with each serving as incremental progression.

The beauty of our Democracy is we have the right to quit our job, vote them out, put them in jail, or just say no. The beauty of the internet is we have the tool we need, more than ever before to beat them in the information war which is a huge key in reaching critical mass.

We have reached another turning point in history where we must not lose sight of the big picture. Based on history, progress will be made.

Obama is reaching "critical mass"

[Psyop Samurai]

72. I appreciate your perspective, and hope that we HAVE reached another turning point...

...but I gotta say that I consider it unacceptably tenuous and not sufficiently conscious.

I'm no longer satisfied with this "march of history" view, where good somehow prevails in the end, despite an endless trail of carnage. That's not to discount the real historical advances or current potential you cite, but we must come to an understanding of the methods that are repeatedly used against us, and develop an immunity to them, so that lies cannot repeatedly prevail, and hard-won progress cannot repeatedly be undone. This is an inter-generational task (hence the "mother's milk" bit, as in "passing on").

"They" live. And "they" run circles around us, generation after generation.

There is a chasm of understanding that is especially difficult to bridge. Most have never truly seen (or acknowledged) the face of evil, as psychological mechanisms protect them from it. Yet our collective self-defense requires such recognition.

Where I diverge from Panther, and where I feel we shouldn't get bogged down, is the focus on localizing and eliminating psychopathy. (Although, in some cases, obviously, such as the current "administration", that is the imperative and only moral action.)

More to the point, I think, is disempowering it, and establishing systems which are somehow regulated and do not select for it, even while retaining hierarchical structure, (which I agree with Panther is inherently problematic). The market deregulation that everyone's been talking about is an outward manifestation of a moral deregulation (think, "greed is good"). That greed extends beyond run-of-the-mill profiteering to satanic mass murder and dispossession on a global scale.

[undergroundpanther]

75. Dis-empowering it is a great long term goal

One I totally agree with.

Problem is things are changing faster,on one level yet changes are slow on another.

Technology has made it so that we could nuke the earth to a barren rock countless times over and weapons building is going on at breakneck pace,there are some very nasty"crowd control" devices in the wrong hands that will attempt to force our submission ,painfully if we use traditional/some untraditional ways of protest civil disobedience.
The weapons have seriously outpaced civilian attempts to be safe from state bullying and not be heard by those in power who due to their weapons cache no longer have to care what we think. Its fascism on mega-doses of steroids and in Iron man's suit. It's Oh Fuck.

Secondly very little research is done on key aspects of psychopathy especially on how it operates via trauma in societies individuals and hierarchies especially at the top.

Third our Ecosystem is breaking down.
Everything is contaminated.Food chain is fucked.
If we do not stop the successful psychopaths and the culture of psychopathy they foster ASAP we may be in deeper shit than any generation before us ever was.Time is growing short we must stop this mindless consuming and game of make believe about the nature of who runs things and how this effects us all..We are gonna have to face up and change one way or another.Denial,ignorance and mini memes might change some but I think it may have to be a serious concerted effort to get it into peoples heads before we can hope to dis-empower psychopathy.And we might not have the time or the protection from the weapons these psychopaths surely will turn on us if we challenge their plans for full spectrum domination.

I don't want this to become a bloody mess,but if we don't get enough people inoculated fast enough to dis-empower psychopathy it just might become that or worse.

I wish we had more time.I wish that people were discussing this stuff decades ago. But they weren't really. Society still was fighting the concept black people were human beings and equal citizens to white people.Native American traditional religion was still illegal,Soon as civil rights were finally breaking through the threat of nuclear weapons scared the crap out of people and the government was telling kids bullshit like hiding under their desk would save them from a nuke.This was insane.But at that time there was not the issues with the food chain,corporate frauds and threats to our health and ecosystem were not as serious or dire as it is now.

People are barely able to get beyond those past nightmares.Now we got the market crashing,the Earth is messed up,food chain is contaminated and everyone is scared they might be handed pink slips and lose their homes tomorrow and might not be able to pay for food or rent..Mini memes about psychopathy as things get tougher will fall on deaf ears when survival is at hand and the government has just gone rogue and people are just beginning to see how expendable they have let themselves become,as consumers. I forget who said it but it went something like to try to teach people about democracy while they are starving is impossible.
Some people because of religion believe people co-existed with dinosaurs.How do you expect them to get this? Some people think if you wish real hard reality gives you whatever you ask for.How do you expect them to understand?

It's like Germany 1930 something all over again.But worse.
Nobody listened to the white rose society as Hitler rose to power.
Why? because too comfortable people are in denial and call you a tin foil or call you crazy or a downer than ignore you and starving scared traumatized people are too frazzled to think clearly they are like trapped cats focused on what is the closest most personal threats, not what is the force motivating it..

[marions ghost]

88. Yes, what u say Psyop Samurai

"There is a chasm of understanding that is especially difficult to bridge. Most have never truly seen (or acknowledged) the face of evil, as psychological mechanisms protect them from it. Yet our collective self-defense requires such recognition."

---------

This is why well-meaning people have such a hard time understanding Panther's perspective. They either have not themselves been victimized, or they do not wish to see how prevalent the problem of pathological Narcissism-- or socially sanctioned sociopathy-- is. There is a LOT of denial about this. These functional sociopaths commit their crimes indirectly, like Mafia dons--somebody else always does the dirty work. They always pose as fine, upstanding members of society. They sucker people into supporting them and are often superficially charming.

I agree with Panther that this problem is much more present and dangerous to us than most people realize. Whether readers of this thread agree with everything Panther argues, or dislike the raw and from the heart style of expression, THE POINT IS--there is a valuable message here. Sometimes you have to say it strongly for anyone to hear. We who tend to play nicey nice, WILL CONTINUE to be victimized if we do NOT fight back. I'm talking about fighting together, with legal means, of course. But make no bones about it--it IS a fight. It IS a life or death struggle. What does it matter if you die like the victims of Bhopal or by a thug in an alley? What does it matter if you die in America without access to health care? You are still the victim of a cold and ruthless mentality, either way.

It IS critical that we learn to recognize the features of the predatory personality --and NOT tolerate the abuses perpetrated by such individuals or groups of such individuals. After the reign of the BFEE, can ANYONE doubt their presense in our highest levels of government? Yes, Sarah Palin has the potential for it. Give her the VP job, and she'll be as ready as Dubya to carry out the Devil's work. That's why she was chosen. She has NO problem with being ruthless. These people are easy to spot once you understand the twisted psychology driving them.

[undergroundpanther]

67. Psy

thank you.
And I agree the state has too many psychopaths in positions of law enforcement and government power to be trusted with capital punishment.Even though I do advocate it for violent crimes.

Sometimes I feel like the song by Pink Floyd outside the wall.
So many here want to paint me as crazy a monster or some thing in side their heads and project it upon me.They don't want knowledge or to even discuss it,they want certainty.They want to find a pigeonhole and put me in it so they can again avoid looking at the more difficult challenges reality presents because of the cognitive dissonance and anxiety it causes them.
I can't help that. I don't know how.
Always the same accusations, the same fears, demanding I prove I am not some monster out to do a Hitler when I try to articulate this problem.It's damn frustrating.
And at the same time I feel for them,anxiety and uncertainty is hard,to face but it always with us no matter what we believe or want.
And at the same time,I know something HAS to be done something has to change and what I see as a possible solution is so hard to articulate,to begin to simplify to posters that don't get it or complain about how I write it,they have no clue how utterly irrelevant their grammar comments and snarks are, and How it looks to me,like desperation to shut me up for reasons they only know but dare not admit..And it hurts me to see such blindness and stubborness and fear because I so desperately want to help, to do something that will be effective and genuine something to stop the carnage and trauma..If only..sigh.

All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you,
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand,
Some gather together in bands,
The bleeding hearts and artists,
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all,
Some stagger and fall.
After all its not easy,
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.

Thanks Psyop,for taking my hand as we walk up and down outside that wall.

[Psyop Samurai]

74. heya!...

Dang it, I'm missing out tonight on all the news on the other threads. ...took me forever to write that post in response to gopbuster, and now this one's got me goin'.

I know your intentions, panth. But you have to realize how far out of the "mainstream", and how different your posts are from most others. I would advise any would-be readers to expect to have to engage, ie. "give a little" and reflect, and not expect a "quick hit". That's not an accustomed expectation around here, plus, the nearness and urgency of the election doesn't afford the best space for deep thought and reflection.

Don't take it too personally. You get some good responses (if not always up to speed), and some may help to refine your views and approach if you can take a detached view.

Your core message is of vital importance and should be heard. I should work on making it more accessible myself, though God knows it's a thankless task, and there are many who will not hear. I think that many people though, could be persuaded in the general direction with the proper bite-size memes, so long as they don't have to look directly at the beast. For many, however, it is not in their nature to fight back.

In any event, we're in this for the long haul -- there's no quick fix, and while time does not appear to be on our side, in brighter moments, there do appear to be some self-regulating mechanisms that keep the carnage and trauma within certain bounds. Witness the rise of Obama, and repudiation of the neocons (however euphemized and perilously thin).

[Marr]

77. I think all these things break down into two simple categories:

Some people think humanity is basically good, and some think it's basically bad.

If you think it's basically good, you'll favor egalitarian society and, probably, assistance for people who need it. These people believe that, given the opportunity, most people will contribute something worthwhile and we'll all be better off for it.

If you think people are basically bad, you'll want a powerful state to impose order and keep you safe. These people operate primarily from a sense of fear and cling tightly to reassuring symbols.

I always laugh when I hear Conservatives talk about "small government", because they are *always* the biggest advocates for greater government power. They're frightened and want to be protected from wicked humanity.

Another weird thing many have noted in conservative-minded people is that they often seem to exhibit the very behaviors they crusade against. Or they're just plain assholes. So in a way, you might say some people have a dim view of humanity because they're using themselves as the prime example of humanity.

[undergroundpanther]

93. I don't break it down that way

I think some people are good, some are not and some are a mix of the two in a spectrum of severities and mildness factors..
It all depends on how much of the bad they have and how it shapes their interactions with others.
Do they harm? How much, how bad, how many.This issue is complex but it has to be faced.It is a very real threat and it is recognizable and very dangerous to humanity.
Dis-empowering sociopaths would be the best option I agree 100%.
Sadly sometimes reality and the situation's dire urgency negates the luxury of time to teach so many people unaware, in denial,how to dis-empower psychopathy before the processes the psychopaths have created begin to kill us,or trap us and kill the planet.

I don't know if we have time or can get the resources to reach out and get the truth out to enough people familiar with this issue to reach a critical mass in consciousness strong enough to break the obedience /denial wall and stop the make believe,to save ourselves from the future psychopaths have laid out for us,that abyss.There is so much denial and unwillingness to even discuss the depth of this problem.

[LeftyMom]

79. .

[Ani Yun Wiya]

80. From the depths of my soul...

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Undergroundpanther, this post is THE BEST POST I have EVER read here at this site or any other.

Over the last six years here I have read tens of thousands of post and not one has so well stated what the problem is and how to deal with it.

I salute you and would happily stand with you regardless of the challenge.

Your spirit is what we should all have within us.

[undergroundpanther]

97. Thank you

Your response was so sweet,and BTW welcome to DU. I hope you find solace here,some of us are awake.Might not look that way all the time .

[Z_I_Peevey]

89. Posting to mark for reading later.

I suspect I'll be saving a few of those links.

[guruoo]

90. K&R - A keeper. Here's another one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[newtothegame]

92. Thanks n/t

[pitohui]

95. yeah there's 2 kinds of people, those who think there's 2 kinds of people...and the rest of us

by the way, where fits in the independent person who is a non-sociopath but has better things to do than "get along w. everybody else"?

there are plenty of nice non-authoritarian people who have no interest or no ability "to welcome change" or "establish relationships," in fact, entire groups of people like asperger's syndrome/classic "nerds" fall into that category, but i guess we are not strictly to be considered human except when something needs to be classified or studied in a scientific manner, so why bother to include us at all

some people are like your cat, not a sociopath, not bossing anyone around, but simply if life must be spent talking all the time and establishing relationship and community then it is not worth the living because you have just described hell ("hell is other people" is not just a witty comment but simple fact to this group of people)

[undergroundpanther]

98. Deaf..

Look I have said this I don't know how many times..
Things are COMPLEX.People fall on a spectrum regarding the severity of how toxic they are.

You aren't a people person.Good for you.As long as you are not raping or torturing innocent kids or people or abusing them,just because you can, you are just a curmudgeon.
Being a crank in of itself makes you unpleasant, even an asshole to be around,someone to avoid becoming friends with but you are not a psychopath.
what I am referring to is people with NO conscience, no empathy AT ALL, no shame at all.NO INNER RESTRAINTS on how they TREAT other people.
A crank ass,even one like you has SOMETHING they care about.
That means you are NOT a psychopath.

[cbayer]

99. Locking

There is advocacy of violence in here that is against our posting rules and not appropriate for DU.

Cheers,

cbayer
DU Moderator