I Haven't Heard Anyone Recommending This, But Is My Financial Advice To Myself Sound?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

First, let me say that I've had 55g rotting away for a year now, still too apprehensive to make a decision on what the fuck to do with it. Stocks(thank god I didn't do that earlier)? CD's? Savings account? I never could decide what was best. But I had an idea this morning that I decided to look into, and the GUARANTEED returns are staggering. It's not something I've heard anyone recommend though, and I wonder if that's only because only a certain % of people could even consider it? But regardless, if you have any financial knowledge I'd like your opinion.

What I'm thinking is refinancing my mortgage from a 30 year to a 15 year mortgage, while throwing the 55g at the principal. When I ran the calculations, what it did was eye opening to me.

My mortgage was 240,000 2 years ago at 6%. I pay 1438 a month for just P&I. If I throw 55g at it and refinance to 15 years, with a new mortgage amount of about 178g and interest of about 5.375%, my monthly payment will be about 20 bucks less but the HUGE kicker is that my monthly payment will earn me 400 bucks EVERY SINGLE MONTH! Right now, my 1438 is split with most of it going towards the interest, and only about 264 bucks of it going towards principal. With the 15 year fixed 55g injected action, my 1400+ payment will be split with 659 bucks going towards principal! That means every single month I pay my mortgage, instead of throwing 400 bucks away towards interest I'm instead putting 400 bucks straight in the bank, with the money able to be withdrawn the day I sell my house.

Is there any other possible investment right now that I could earn 400 bucks a month guaranteed? Am I missing something here? Way I see it, if you've had your mortgage for a while and your loan amount has diminished quite a bit due to payments made over the years, then it might be a huge gain for you to think about refinancing to a 15 year fixed if you can afford the higher monthly payment. The money saved in interest is straight money in the bank that cannot be lost and will be liquid the second you sell the house someday.

Good idea? Bad idea? Guidance please.

[glowing]

1. I don't know? The real estate market is so strange right now.. When you are ready to

sell, it may be worth a lot more and it wouldn't really matter if you threw money at it now... Perhaps re-finance with a 30yr.. more money in your pocket to save each month. Or just keep it in a savings account, it may be a rocky ride over the next couple of years, you may need that money. I wouldn't put it into the house unless it paid the house off.. But that's me personally.

[RoccoR5955]

2. It sounds good to me,

And I would do it myself, but my credit is not excellent, so I am just doubling up on my mortgage payments every other month, in hope that it will take less time to pay the thing off.

FYI -- I am no financial wizard, I am more like a financial lizard.

[earth mom]

3. Money is the root of all evil. But you know that. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. So Is Stupidity. n/t

[Zhade]

59. Nah, we don't think that makes you evil.

NT!

[RB TexLa]

26. Are you giving that as your own advice or attempting to change what St. Paul wrote?

10 For the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows.


http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61006.htm

[hfojvt]

35. I was gonna say that it's the "love" of money that's evil

and what's the best way he can show he doesn't love it? By sending it to me, Al Franken. :o

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. This is where talking to a financial advisor is a good idea

Spend a few bucks and rent about a half hour of time with a licensed advisor (someone who has the series 66 or series 67 license) and get advice specific for your income, goals and investment experience. It shouldn't be expensive and it will be money well spent.

[zippy890]

10. good advice

I think I'll take it!

:hi:

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Assuming your calculations are correct, it sounds like it could work for you.

It would also save you from being upside down on your mortgage. With some mortgages, I gather that they can actually foreclose on you if you get upside down due to declining property values, even if you never miss a payment.

[NNN0LHI]

6. How much did you put down and are you paying PMI?

PMI is expensive as hell.

Don

[EmeraldCityGrl]

7. What are the tax ramifications?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. The Only Tax Ramifications Would Be The Loss Of Deductible Interest.

I would still come out hundreds ahead each month.

[nykym]

8. I am not sure

of all the numbers but if you were to make an additional yearly payment on your mortgage which was applied to the principal only I believe it would cut your mortgage by 15 years or so over the life of the mortgage. While you are paying alot in intrest now it will lessen over time and more will be paid to your principal. There is one investment you could look at it's called zero coupons you invest say $20,000 and in say 15 years it is worth $40,000. So maybe a combination of both would net you a tidy sum. Food for thought

[ginnyinWI]

9. conventional wisdom is

that you always get the shortest term mortgage that you can afford. You might pay a bit more per month--looks like you won't though--but soon you own your house free and clear. We bought with a 15 year mortgage back in '91 (had lived in and sold two before that so had a little equity already), lived there for 12 years, then when we bought our present house we owed so little (17K) that mortgage companies weren't interested! We were able to get a small credit union loan plus a small loan from a relative which we paid off very quickly, and now own our home free and clear.

We've been living here mortgage free for four years and it's great--we are able to save for retirement with the extra money.

The only risk is that your house might drop in value lower than what you invested in it--so you'll have to consider that. But that is outweighed by being debt free.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. As Far As The House Going Lower, I Figured That Was Irrelevant.

Even if it falls where I owe money, I would've owed that much PLUS the 55g more on top of it if I hadn't injected it. For rhetorical example, if someday my house was only worth 160 g but my mortgage was still 170 after the injection, I'd be 10g in the hole. But if I hadn't done that, my mortgage would be 225 and I'd be 65g in the hole! So no matter what, that 55g is always still in my pocket in one form or another.

[zipplewrath]

11. How old are you? Think long term.

What else can you do with that 55 grand? How long do you plan to invest that 55 grand? The usual advice is for younger people to borrow money for a house at a low interest rate, for 30 years. You'll probably never pay off the mortgage anyway, and in the future, you may sell it and "start over" on buying a new place. In the mean time, if you can finance for around 5 - 6 % you should be able to earn more than that (over long periods) in investments. Alternately, if you are within 15 years or so of potential retirement, setting yourself up to be "free and clear" might not be a bad move. Although I'd probably do it by other means than plopping down 55 grand (increasing my monthly payment, refinancing for 15 years at a higher monthly payment, etc). Also, what other uses will the 55 grand potentially go for? Avoiding car interest payments? Repairing homes? Surviving a healthcare crisis? Getting through "hard times" from a layoff? No point in dumping 55 grand into your house (at 6%) when you'll have to take out a 9% loan for education expenses, a car, major home repair/improvement, etc. Finally, right now may not be the best time to make a major fiscal decision. One might want to let the credit and housing markets settle out a bit before making a major investment change decision.

There are people in the finacial services industry who can give you advice on this stuff based upon your personal situation. Also, outfits like the (nonprofit) Consumer Credit Counseling Service actually like working with people that aren't currently in a fiscal crisis once and a bit. (Make a donation or something though).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. One Thing You Missed Is That The 55g Doesn't Just Invest At 6%, But Far More Due To Giving Me The

capability to change the mortgage to a 15 yr while having roughly the same monthly payment. Due to that, it is being invested at 6% PLUS an additional 400 bucks earned every single month due to the larger principal split within the payment itself. I don't know how to calculate that TRUE return, but it would be a heck of a lot better than 6% right?

[zipplewrath]

33. Sorta

I'm not taking sides here. But, that 55 grand is going "into" the house. Some portion of the mortgage is also "going into" the house (against principal). Yes, you're paying less interest and more principal, but the 55 grand isn't really "doing" anything except appreciating with the value of the house, neither is the principal (equity) you're building in the house. Now if your house appreciates at faster than 6%, fine it was a good "investment". But it contains the same risks as any other investment and when you "invest" in your house, it is much harder to switch investments. A stock or bond or other instrument can be traded when it performs poorly or other investment opportunities come about. Most folks don't want to sell their houses to extract the investment monies. It that case they have to borrow to get it out.

There are no hard and fast rules here. It all depends upon your individual fiscal situation. Furthermore, it may be worthwhile considering if you are some kind of investor that will "maximize" your investments, or will you merely "spend" that $20 per month you save by the refinancing? In 15 years what will you do with your mortgage payment when it stops? For some people, a 30 year mortgage is in effect a "forced savings plan". That's not necessarily a bad thing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. How Can You Say The Added Principal Isn't Doing Anything?

I agree with you saying the 55g does do anything outside of saving the 6% interest. But what it does do is give me the capability of refinancing a lesser amount, thereby making a 15 yr fixed affordable. That's where the bang for the buck is.

By going to a 15 yr, I would be paying the same each month as with a 30 yr (roughly), but instead of throwing away 400 bucks each month within the interest portion, that 400 bucks instead would be going straight to principal! That means I technically EARN 400 buck EVERY SINGLE MONTH due to my investment PLUS the 6% interest savings on its face. The 400 bucks is pure bonus from the move. For example, if I kept things at 30 yrs, if I sold the house 5 years from now my payoff amount would be about 215,495. If I throw the 55g and refi to 15 yrs and then sell the house 5 years from now, my payoff amount would be 132,846. Adding the 55g back to that in order to make an apples to apples comparison, that would be the equivalent of 187,846. That's a difference of almost 28,000 dollars! That means if I use the 55g in order to make it feasible to refi to a 15 yr (even though the 55g does in fact just sit there), that means 5 years from now I would've earned 28 thousand dollars on my investment! That's a 50% return in 5 years! Is there any investment you could think of that I could do with my 55g that would yield numbers that large after 5 years?

[zipplewrath]

48. Like I say, I'm not advocating

However, you're not considering compounded interest. That investment sounds a bit more like 8% not 10% on a compounded basis. So you can pay 6% interest on 55 grand and hope to do better than 8% when investing the 55 grand (on a compounded basis). Or you can invest the 55 grand in your house and hope to make that 8% (on a comparible compounded basis). This is called your "risk". Then, you'll have to add in points, effect on taxes, what you choose to do with the delta of a lower payment, etc. It could be right for you. For many young folks it is not, but that in part has alot to do with what you will do, or have to do, with the 55 grand. It may be reasonable for you since you'll be paying 6%. However, at lower percentages the numbers can change quickly. Like I say, there's no hard rules here.

[tandot]

14. Are you certain that you don't need short-term access to the money?

Do you have enough other funds for unexpected things like unemployment, disability, health related costs, car break-down, etc.?

It might be harder to refinance again to get a home-equity loan should something unforeseen happen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. I Have Another 10g Or So That I Wouldn't Be Throwing At It.

Even aside from that, due to social security survivor benefits and my years worked already, if anything extreme happened I'd still be ok (thank god). I also can have the benefit of being amazingly comfortable in my job as it relates to the risk of losing it. I'd say there's little to no chance of my being unemployed any time soon. If it happened though, I'd be ok overall.

[tandot]

25. Assuming that you are not planning to sell your house any time soon,

I think getting the 15 year lower interest loan sounds like a great idea.

House prices may still drop further in the next couple of years. If you can wait until the market recovers to sell your house so you don't owe more than your house is worth, it may be well worth it.

:hi:

[Greyhound]

16. If we are heading into a period of deflation, a la The Great Depression, you should

take into account that your $240K house may well be worth $60K in the next few years when deciding.

When the whole country is broke, the guy with $1,000 can buy a house.

[On the Road]

18. I Would Highly Recommend It

As you point out, it's a guaranteed return. 15-year mortgages have slightly lower interest rates. And rates have just been cut to the bone, so if you refinance you may get an even better deal.

Just make sure not to pay too many points -- commercial banks or credit unions are generally better than mortgage brokers.

[AndyA]

19. I think you have a good idea, but you probably should get some professional advice

before you do anything.

Refinancing costs money, and it might be difficult to do right now. Find an advisor that you trust and get some sound professional advice. He/she might even have other ideas for you that you haven't thought of that could save you even more money in the long run.

Overall, it sounds like a good idea to me.

[Warpy]

21. If you can refinance, do so, but do keep part of that money

aside for 6 months of living expenses should the worst happen. You can put that "rainy day" money into 3 month CDs and keep them rolling over so you'll earn something on it.

A 15 year fixed is much better than a 30 year fixed if you can afford the payments. You're paying far less of your income in interest and you start paying the principal immediately, instead of waiting 10 years down the road.

[aikoaiko]

22. Good to go.

The only reason it wouldn't work is if you think your house is still overvalued and it might sink drastically. But at 200 - 300k thats unlikely.

[newportdadde]

23. I think it sounds like a great idea, my wife and I are trying to pay ours off ASAP.

We bought our house back in 2000, started out with a 30 year mortgage at 8.5%, we refinanced the principle down a couple of years later to 6.5% and we are now at a fixed 15 year at 4.75%. I take the total payment (principal, interest, taxes, insurance) and add about half that amount towards the principal each month.

Yes it makes things very tight on the budget. Even though I've seen a nice rise in income the past 4 years after basically a flatline the previous 4 years, gas, food for a family of six etc is just absolutely crazy. I mean our budget has stayed just as tight which is hard to imagine. This plan wouldn't be working as well if my income hadn't improved.

Our thinking is the same as yours on the return if paid off early etc. It is true that if you research this you will find opinions on both sides, your missing out on the early growth of investments etc, which is great if you get a good return but imagine what it would look like right now.

We have attacked this thing with that plan in mind from day one. If everything goes well *crosses fingers* we should have this paid off in less then 3 years, I'll be just 34.

For me this is part of a long term strategy of being completely debt free, it has turned out to be particularly important as our family ended up bigger then we expected with 4 kids(twins etc).

Having our debts all paid off should put us in a good position to both save for retirement and hopefully get all 4 through college, thats the plan at least.

As a side bonus we also love the idea of taking that payment money each month and making improvements on the house with cash money instead of more borrowing.

[klook]

24. By all means, talk to a financial advisor

as TechBear_Seattle advises. But for most people, paying off your mortgage early is one of the smartest financial decisions you could ever make. If you start paying extra early enough in the life of the mortgage, you can potentially avoid many thousands of dollars in interest payments AND have a paid-off roof over your head much sooner. Paying a large chunk of principal at this time sounds like a good idea, also.

Check http://clarkhoward.com/advice/mortgage_payoff.html for some high-level info on the subject, plus links to mortgage calculators where you can compute the savings from different approaches.

Unless your current mortgage has a pre-payment penalty, I don't see the advantage in refinancing to a 15-year mortgage. Why not just send extra principal to the mortgage holder every month and pay off your 30-year mortgage in 15 years? You can do this without paying the closing costs associated with a refi. Then again, if you have the opportunity to reduce your interest rate from 6% to 5.375%, the closing costs may be offset by interest savings in the long run -- especially if, as I understand from your post, you just bought the house 2 years ago and therefore have 28 years left on a 30-year mortgage.

In contemplating the alternatives, you also have to consider how long you plan to stay in the house. Usually, the experts say that if you plan to move in a few years, paying off your mortgage balance early makes less sense. But then in this crappy economy, the usual rules probably don't apply.

Anyway, don't just take my word on any of this stuff - I'm just a regular schmo homeowner, not a financial expert by any stretch of the imagination. I strongly encourage you to spend the small amount of money and time needed to talk to a fee-only financial advisor.

[RB TexLa]

27. I'd be a bit cautious about just moving $55k from cash to equity, the phrase cash is

king comes to mind.

And immediate annuity on 55K for a 40 year old would pay somewhere around $200 a month for life, compared to the $400 per month for 15 years you would be building in your home equity.


Everything depends on what your plans for your house are. I would say what a couple of other posters have said and I would do is to consult a financial adviser.

[ProfessorGAC]

31. Assuming The Annuity Is Guaranteed

At $55k it's pretty easy to get that, but the yield is then going to be low.

And, the long term value of getting out from under a mortgage, if one can afford to, has economic, if not purely financial value.

The Professor

[RB TexLa]

36. I wasn't offering that as advice just an example of a conservative investment

with a guaranteed return.

Fixed annuities all have a guaranteed return as they are life insurance policies and are required to by law.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Not All Anuities Are

But, i get your point. In most cases, you're correct. But you can develop an annuitized trust, which is not a life insurance policy. Some people with the financial wherewithal do that to avoid taxes on any cap gains on the money until they actually cash out the trust. (Just as an example.) The yields would be much higher over the course of years, because the realized gains and other interest/dividends would be untaxed. 8% for 10 years piles up a whole lot faster than 5% over ten years!

We're agreeing in principal. Just quibbling over detail, RG.
The Professor

[slackmaster]

34. He could get close to $200/month on a 3-year CD

And not be locked in after that.

[RB TexLa]

39. See post 36, just like your 3 year CD mine was an example of something that could be done with the

money.

[slackmaster]

41. Sending it to Al Franken?

:rofl:

I take it you meant #26.

[RB TexLa]

45. Sorry, 36. I guess there could be some thinking an investment in Franken would pay off

probably all named Al Franken.

[hfojvt]

28. It's not sound

for one basic reason. All your eggs are in one basket - your house. Also, do you have other savings? What if something happens job-wise? How long can you keep making house payments? You should have at least $6,000 in basic savings to cover three months of expenses (for you, this might be $10,000 because your house payments alone seem to be about $7,500)

Why not $45,000 in the house and $10,000 in other investments? Or $40,000 in the house, $10,000 in CD's/bonds (which provide that 3 months of savings cushion), and $5,000 in the market? (once the market bottoms out, there should be lots of good buys).

Obviously, with refinancing alone, the .6% drop in interest on $200,000 in debt saves you $100 a month even without plowing the whole $55,000 into your house.

Another way you can look at things, is that by paying an extra $264 a month, you are basically skipping a payment and making $1174 a month with just that $264. That's providing there's no penalty for early repayment in your mortgage contract.

[slackmaster]

29. Essentially a gain of $17,000 over 15 years on an investment of $55 K?

Thatt's not a spectacular return, but it is extremely safe IMO (unless your house value is badly inflated now and is bound to drop precipitously and stay down for 15 years).

Have you figured the LOSS of interest deductions into your tax planning, BTW? It's not a really big deal but may affect your withholding allowances.

Is there any other possible investment right now that I could earn 400 bucks a month guaranteed?

3-year CDs are paying around 3.8% or a little more. That's less than half of your $400/month figure.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. The Gain Is FAR Better Than That.

Due to the principal payments going up month after month as per amortization, the number grows greatly. In comparison to my current 30 yr, I would make 28 grand in just 5 years! Now THAT's one hell of a roi!

[slackmaster]

49. Oh yeah, I forgot about all the P&I payments you wouldn't have to make

:D

[ProfessorGAC]

30. As Long As It's A Fixed Mortgage There Is Always. . .

. . .a HUGE advantage in reducing the term. By definition you pay far less interest over the terms so the payment goes down, especially since your reducing principal by $55k.

It is financially prudent, in the these low yield times to cut debt, reduce debt period, then to hold and invest.

Even stocks are seeing a negative return over a 2 year period right now. And banks are yielding a pittance.

I'd make the move.

We did the same thing about 18 years ago, and paid off our house. Nothing like knowing you own every molecule of the place.
The Professor

[slackmaster]

32. I switched to a shorter mortgage term in 2004 and have never regretted it

The move cut 5 years off of my payoff date and will save around $90 K in interest over the life of the loan. With a substantially lower interest rate, my monthly payments only went up a little.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Ours, Like OMC's, Went Down

And we didn't dump as much cash. But we bought our house in the late Reagan era and interest rates fell a lot 4 years later. So, the shift in interest was substantial enough that the payment would have gone down about $5 per month, even had we not added cash against the principal. (We only threw about $6k against it, but our mortage principal wasn't as high as OMC's.)

I agree. We never regretted it.
GAC

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Two suggestions...

a) my state has a guaranteed tuition deal for kids.
http://www.get.wa.gov/

b) if the crisis is as bad as I fear it may be, liquidity will be king. Accessible liquidity is better. Tangible, accessible liquidity is best. If the money is already outside a retirement account, I'd seriously consider buying physical gold.

It's good that you're thinking about how to conserve it. Personally, I wouldn't use my cash to pay down my debt right now. If hyperinflation happens, you're using your precious capital to pay off low interest debt. If deflation happens, you'll need your cash.

[LSK]

42. I dont know what you do for a living, but how do you know you will have a job next year???

You might need that 55g to live on.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. I Know With As Close To Certainty As One Can Get That I'll Have A Job Next Year.

I work in the fragrance industry. No matter how bad things get, people will ALWAYS still want fragrances not only for themselves, but also in their detergents, soaps, shampoos, candles etc.

[AlCzervik]

43. we have a 15 year mortgage with less than 7 years left, i would refinance it if i were you

and then try and make a few principle only payments during the year in addition to your regular mortgage payments.

We've owned 3 homes and we always got 15 year mortgages.

The only thing i've done with money in the past few weeks is move it from a "Maximizer account" to aa high yield cd, the interest rate is about a a point and half better then the other account.

[TexasObserver]

50. Your plan is risky for you.

If I recall, you're a single parent. The $55,000 cash should be kept in a liquid or readily liquid form, because you have responsibilities, and if you should become sick or injured, who will pay the bills?

Cash is king. It will buy things when credit is flagging and the markets are a mess. If you hold onto it, you will have many chances to use it in the future.

Think of it this way. If you do as you've suggested, your cushion is gone. You're one missed payment away from being in default on your new loan.

Your view of interest has a problem. It reflects the view that money paid in interest is sand down a rathole. Interest reflects loss of use of the money. If you keep the money, you will still have it to invest or save. Either way, the $55k can throw you a return of 4-6% annually, without putting the $55k at great risk.

If you were single and had no children, your plan would make a lot more sense, but since you have kids, you have to take the conservative approach. $55k will pay your home and living expenses, at barebones, for quite a while, long enough to recover.

A person in your position needs to be cash strong, because otherwise, one bad illness and the whole family is on the street in months.

Investing cash in your home is probably the worst investment you could make right now, because it's illiquid, and if you HAD to sell, you'd likely take a beating in this market.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. I Theoretically Agree With Your Concept, But It Doesn't Really Apply Here.

I have good health insurance and benefits at work. I also have about 100 grand in equity in the house itself (valued at 340, mortgage balance probably 234g or so now). Even if I couldn't work, between the benefits from the employer I'd get, disability, and the social security survivor benefits my family gets, we'd be fine no matter what.

I guess I just look at it as 55g that I can grow, and how best to grow it. When I see that with my plan that 55g earns me 28 grand in only 5 years with practically zero risk, I can't think of any possible investment that would yield such an incredible return.

What this thread has gotten me thinking about though, is the need for liquid assets in the coming years. Though I don't foresee the need, I need to be really certain.

[TexasObserver]

53. Keeping your non home debt at zero would be smart.

Debt on anything other than a home is insane, in my view, unless one has little or no choice.

I think it's a good idea to have two year's of home payments in highly liquid form, tucked away for any emergency that may arise.

Most people simply buy more stuff than they need. They feed their wants, not their needs. They could buy a great car with 100,000 miles on it, but they go into debt to the tune of $400 a month to have a new car that will be 5-7 years old when they get it paid for.

I am an advocate of low debt, conservative expenditures, and good cash reserves for the unexpected. Peace of mind is worth more than any consumer goods.

You appear to be in really good financial condition, and I would not fix it, since it ain't broke.

Write to Suzy Orman. Yours is a perfect story for her analysis, and she might use it on her show. I think she will agree with me, because even though you have great equity in your home, getting that equity back in a distress sale in a bad market might be very, very hard to do.

If you do as you have suggested, however, you could roll the $400 a month additional cash available into savings. But keep in mind that you're not really saving $400 a month. You're saving the difference between the $400 a month and the interest you would draw on the $55,000, which might be in the range of $200 per month.

[mnhtnbb]

52. You don't have to refinance to take $400/month from the $55K

and apply it towards principal on your existing loan. No fees for refinancing, paydown the principal
faster and put the $55K in laddered CD's so that you'll continue to earn interest, have it available,
and have sufficient funds from it to make the extra payments each month.

Your loan coupon should have a place on it to indicate what amount extra you are sending each month
and it is to be applied to principal.

[CK_John]

54. Re:Financial Advisers, when in the middle of a panic how can you expect sound advise. You seem

hell bent on throwing away your money. Do you feel guilty because you have some? Preserve your capital and keep it in FDIC insured deposits. Wait until at least April or May see how the housing market shakes out. You probably will be able to buy the best house in your neighborhood for 55K.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. What Are You Blathering About? How Could This Be Interpreted As Being "Hell Bent On Throwing My

money away"? Feeling guilty? What on earth are you talking about?

:crazy: :dunce:

[CK_John]

56. You asked for advise and you got it. Handle it. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. I Asked For Advice, Not Nonsense.

Your post was nonsense. I asked for clarification as to what in the world you were talking about, because it was filled with such nonsense. So you handle it laddy.

[Zhade]

58. Considering how wrong you were about the bailout... consider asking a professional.

NT!