I don't think this country could survive a depression

[NNN0LHI]

I am not trying to sound like alarmist by using the word depression in this post either because I don't know if that is where we are heading or not. No one does.

But the current population is about three times the size what it was in during the Great Depression of the 1930's. Think about that for a minute. Three times the number of people out of work and unable to eat.

That alone is the biggest difference. We can't afford not having food in stores or have it in stores and no one can be able to buy it. It would be every man for himself in no time.

People would panic and start killing one another. I just know they would. I can see it in the faces of people at the grocery store. They would eat the weak and old first but they will get to each other eventually.

We need to be very careful here I think.

Don

[groovysadgesun]

1. Careful of what? Most people on DU seemed to think the bailout was the right thing to do

My feeling is that it could be even worse than allowing the market to bottom out.

What we DO need to be careful about is awfulizing everything. We have abundance in this country. We have enough for all, but we waste so much stuff. Wouldn't it be rad to start forming collectives? Imagine a country where those who own acres of land would allow others to join them, grow crops, live off the grid, and start to pare down our needs and wants?

[dkf]

3. But even states couldn't fund their payroll.

California can't float bonds, nor Massachusetts, nor Missouri.

Not even state jobs are safe.

[groovysadgesun]

10. But if we could buy cheap land (or move to places where people already own many acres)

we could live off the land, create organic farms, get solar energy started, get off the grid, and have a beautiful life without having the government and stock market jerk us around like puppets on strings. I know it sounds like a pipe dream, but people used to live this way just 100 years ago!

[dkf]

13. Farming is a hard life.

If everyone liked it, we could all become farm workers. But even the poorest people don't want to do that. Toiling in the hot sun sucks.

[groovysadgesun]

20. If it were a small farm created to sustain a small group of people,

there wouldn't be the need to work more than half a day! And extra produce could be used to barter for other needed items (plus, people would be bringing their life savings with them, so they would have money to buy stuff).

Oh, this is just me rambling on, but I do see a day when we will very likely go to a more collective society. We have seen the severe limitations of relying on government to be honest, fair, productive, creative, etc. They voted for that bailout with OUR money. How many people wanted this thing? They were in the vast minority.

[dkf]

22. Half a day? YEARGH.

I hate yard work. We have a huge hedge around our house and it has been such a chore to take care of. Even once a month is a bummer.

I'm not an outdoor person.

[groovysadgesun]

25. Well, make your decision: outdoor person or breadline person in fascist state

I prefer the former, myself.

[cabluedem]

58. We have a fascist state now so you choose to grow food or stand in a breadline as a prole.

[bertman]

46. dkf, with your attitude, I have a bad feeling that you're gonna be one of the first

PEOPLEBURGERS.

[Greyhound]

14. According to the poll posted today, an overwhelming majority on DU oppose the bail-out. n/t

[groovysadgesun]

26. You are probably right, but I sure read a bunch of posts defending it

And the general consensus was that not passing it would lead to so many average people losing their jobs very quickly. I didn't buy it and still don't. We (USA) is quite reactive about stuff. And that is never a good thing, especially when Dubya's the one urging the action.

[Greyhound]

28. Oh yes, the terrified minority was very vocal.

Not that it mattered, this is, after all, just a BBS with a few thousand believers. Still, it is quite revealing to see just how far that whole "Democrats care about other people" myth goes, doesn't it?

I've seen the same thing my whole life, sacrifice is all well and good, as long as somebody else is doing the sacrificing.

[groovysadgesun]

31. I just want to comment on your pic there

I saw Kucinich and his wife at McCormick Place's Chicago Green Fest last year. She is absolutely stunning.

[TahitiNut]

21. Nonsense. The "pro-bailout" DUers just post the same shit 5-6 times as much.

The emptiest barrels make the most noise.

:shrug:

[girl gone mad]

45. I've just taken to..

ignoring them.

I tried my best to present facts and figures, but was met with the same "you're just like people who deny global warming!" nonsense time and time again.

I'd say pro-bailout posts were a mile wide and an inch deep.

[DS1]

2. Big Pharma would make a killing on the people already depresssed

with their McMansions and BMW SUVs :eyes:


What? You're depressed that you have to sell your 3rd car? Have some more pills!

[shanti]

49. mental health parity

was conveniently tucked into the bailout bill too, remember? perhaps they are expecting many mental breakdowns among the populace.

[lutherj]

4. Also, in the 1930's, most of the population still lived in rural America,

and farming was done the old fashioned way. Food was local. People still knew how to grow a garden, and there was still game in the fields and woods. People then had basic survival skills. In addition, there was a lot of open land where the homeless could pitch a tent and set up camp. A depression today would be an urban nightmare.

[Stellabella]

36. Yes. And people knew how to preserve food then, as well as

grow it. When's the last time the average person canned anything?

[tavalon]

50. Last week

But then, with my fifty lb bag of rice and another of beans stored carefully out in the garage and my rainbarrels collecting our fine Seattle rain, it might be that I'm not average.

[Stellabella]

57. Good for you!

And no, you're way above average.

:)

[shanti]

52. yes

my grandfather was a foreman in the lima bean fields in orange county in the 30's. his daughter, my mother, said they never felt any of the effects of the depression. they had cows, chickens, garden, etc. i could foresee that scenario again.

[shireen]

5. what's your definition of "survive"?

This financial crisis is going to change the country, but not destroy it.

As cynical as I am, I seem to have a bit more faith in humanity than you do.

It's going to hurt a lot of people in many ways. Bad things will happen. But in the long run, we will find a way to adapt, and hopefully come out of it wiser and smarter.

Instead of being defensive, we need to be offensive against the problems that will arise. The only way to do that is to reach out to our neighbors, support our communities, and do everything we can to help people in need. We need to start taking care of each other, not fighting each other.

[melody]

6. Well, let's hope for the worst

For tomorrow, Mothra and Godzilla may trample the villagers.

We will survive because we have to. My neighborhood has already started a group we're calling the Stone Soup
Circle. We all have backyards and various sundry skills. We're preparing now. That's all you can do. Most
of what we worry about never happens. In the event it does, be prepared.

[tavalon]

51. That is magnificent what your neighbors and you are doing! Kudos to all of you

I just finished watching Enron:The Smartest Guys in the Room and I think I know about how this is going to go because well we are reprising history here, with the same damn players who found another way to game the system.

[Mojorabbit]

7. We will survive

but it will be ugly for a good long while.

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. Not as well as those who lived thru the Big one.

[CrispyQ]

9. A depression is only the start of the perilous times we are facing.

When Will Los Angeles Run Out of Water? Sooner Than You Think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=115&topic_id=173365&mesg_id=173365

[melody]

16. Desalinization will just have to be made to work

The Carlsbad plant (soon to go online) is state of the art. We'll just have to build more. We're already vastly improving our ability to conserve.

Not wanting to rain on anyone's dystopian parade, of course.

[CrispyQ]

18. Sorry, there's a drought.

You won't be able to rain on my parade!

;)

[zonmoy]

37. where are you getting the energy to desalinate the water.

[melody]

53. We're talking potable water now -- all other dystopian terrors must wait

I'm trying to give clinical depressives reason *not* to off themselves really soon.

[coalition_unwilling]

40. Along those lines, even during the German's year-long

siege of Leningrad (pka and nka "St. Petersburg"), the citizens never resorted to cannibalism.

Is the OP suggesting that dirty rotten Commies are morally superior to freedom-loving 'Murkins? :)

[zonmoy]

35. Problem is that we are running into a perfect storm of problems

water is scarce. cheap fossil fuels are gonna run out with all the alternative energy sources being little more than expensive pipe dreams, food will run low between food land being diverted to fueling cars and loss of cheap chemicals from cheap fossil fuels depriving us of much of our crops not to mention lack of water making agriculture difficult. probably a whole lot more I either didnt mention or havent thought of.

I believe that whatever factors triggered the decline and fall of all the great empires of the past has started to happen here. I accept that our empire cannot last forever and that 200 years is a fairly good lifespan for one but that doesnt mean that I like seeing it start to topple.

[melody]

54. You're asserting the worst possible outcome in all instances

Land will become valuable, people with land will be able to farm it ... oh, never mind, it's the end, we're all going to die. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

11. Maybe this country shouldn't survive a depression.

I don't mean people, either.

[melody]

15. A country only means the people ... anything else is an illusion n/t

[EFerrari]

30. See: Las Vegas. n/t

[melody]

33. Que?

If you were referring to illusion, that was my whole point -- the illusion will fade but not the reality.

[Selatius]

41. She likely means the federal government, not the people. When Rome fell, the people didn't disappear

They lived on, and many of today's Europeans are descended from those who lived under the reign of Rome.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. "There is no safety in the Cosmos" - Alan Watts

I doubt that there will be a depression on the scale of the Great Depression, but I think that there will be a long and dreary recession that will cause more than a little turbulence around the world.

I think the result will be a loss of America's "standing" in the world and a slow, inevitable, slide into 2nd Rate Power status.

A result that I would like to see with as little bloodshed along the path to has-been empire.

[2speak]

17. It would be the same as the last when it comes to survival

and the sheep will be herded like last time.

[JfortheDonks]

19. This Is The Same B.S. That Went On Prior To WWII and Hitler

They create a financial situation where everyone is literally at their mercy, then the real ugliness can begin. I do not mean to sound like an alarmist either, but what was it, 1 hour after the bailout/rescue bill was signed, and they started talking about all the unemployment issues. When I heard that, I became really concerned, too. My question is: What will happen when it gets to that point?! The point where crime rises due to no jobs, and people who can't buy food and survive? Will they suggest people joining the military then, or bunking at one of the bases that some people hear are all fully staffed and what have you? When it gets to the point that we are at the gov's mercy, there won't be alot of choices anymore. The Federal Reserve is a privately owned company from what I have learned. And, the Martial Law stuff is what's really scaring me personally. If the Executive Orders are enforced, they can freeze the ACH system, the food supply, the gas supply, and take control of all communications, etc... I don't know what internet provider, etc... you guys have, but I have Charter, and my net/phone/cable were sold to me in a "bundled" package. The other night, I was chatting with a friend who lives out West, so, it is 2 hours earlier there than it is in MN where I live. Suddenly, everything went down, and when I called Charter via my cell, they told me that the system was down for maintenance. I suppose they figure at 1A most people are sleeping - except, me the night owl, lol. But I was thinking later about how easy my 3 main sources of communication could be knocked out just like that. I think it's the same with all this banking stuff that's going on and the ACH. If they merge all of the banks into just 1 or 2 like we are seeing, that will just make everything so much easier for them if they want to freeze the ACH. Most people have direct deposit that I know - only a few do not. FEMA is the ones who can take over control if Martial Law is ever enforced. The Constitution and Bill of Rights can automatically be suspended, and Congress can do nothing about it for 6 months. I think the President could also stay in indefinitely if that ever happens, too. That is perhaps the scariest thought of them all!!! I Think GWB is the closest we have ever come to having a dictator is the U.S., and it sickens my stomach when he and McPain joke about that. Anyway, I know I won't sleep well until January 20th once our new President gets sworn in, and hopefully it is Obama!!!

[melody]

23. People have been seeing the 4th Reich for thirty years

I grant you, it's alarming. And Bush is definitely a fascist. The difference is communication -- it's what shutdown the old Soviet coup against glasnost. There are far fewer fascists than there are normal people -- sociopaths are the minority.

The situation is different. And it will not get to the point you're describing. The information flow will stop it.

[Karenina]

27. Or accelerate it. Who knows.

:shrug:

[melody]

32. Well, let's just all give up and shoot ourselves

It's beyond me why people set up these horrific scenarios to scare themselves with. I always hope for the best and prepare
for the worst. If it were THAT bad, you really think powerful people (also in the know) would be giving money to campaigns,
hoping for the future?

[JfortheDonks]

55. I Hope You're Right About That!

I would hate to see it get to that point!

[Karenina]

24. Methinks you get it

and have been wanting to spit that all out for some time. Welcome to DU! :toast:

[JfortheDonks]

56. Thanks For The Welcome!

I love DU and have my bumper sticker slapped on my car along with Obama-Biden, Al Franken, DFL National Committee, (and my one son's Academic All Star) ones!!!

[Irish Girl]

29. I think it's important to start asking these questions now

I've cut back exponentially on how much I eat every day, and I only eat until I'm satisfied (not stuff myself to the gills to the point I feel ill afterwards). The American people are a sturdy lot. Remember, our ancestors had to survive very harsh conditions to build better lives here. Through the generations, however, we've unfortunately become neglectful and greedy. I do believe we will see a slow shift from consuming to producing, both out of necessity and survival.

[Feron]

34. I disagree.

After Katrina, people pulled together for the most part. And it's not unique to one storm or area.

And while there are always a few assholes out there, there will be more people working together and making sure that their neighbors are okay.

[Dorian Gray]

38. I am afraid of where we are headed

but...

I doubt that we are going to start eating each other.

There will definitely be more crime with a serious depression, but eating each other?

Come on!

[47of74]

39. We almost didn't survive the last one.

Our country almost didn't survive the last one. See Business Plot.

[McCamy Taylor]

42. Read "Hard Times" by Studs Terkel. All the people in that book say the same thing.

People nowadays could not survive the Great Depression. They are not used to hardship. They would descend too quickly into violence/fascism/chaos.

The immigrants, people from Mexico and people from other countries would adapt. But too many Americans have had it too good for too long.

[NNN0LHI]

43. Most Americans have known nothing but good times

I could see people discovering their local grocery was temporarily out of bananas and get violent over that alone.

I am serious.

When Americans want something they want it right now and they don't want to hear no excuses. At least the ones I know.

Imagine the panic from waking up some morning and discovering the Internet and cable/dish TV was out nation wide?

Don

[trudyco]

44. I dunno - Katrina had looters but it also had a lot of people pulling

together. There would be some riots and looting. Overall, though, I think we'll bring back real jobs because we will have to. We still have a lot of land that can grow food, it's just a matter of getting the food distributed fairly and getting people to farm the land.

My parents survived the Depression in Los Angeles. There were times when their family had to steal food. The grocer knew what they were doing and looked the other way. There were times when they had to sneak out in the middle of the night because they didn't have rent money (they lost their house early on). There was a time when the kids were sent to live on relatives' farms. The school provided some food for the kids (but not enough). The government provided jobs and ways for people to sustain themselves - an Uncle was given chickens to start a chicken farm. There were relatives living together in one house. Down and out strangers were given a roof and a meal for a night before they moved on.

People pulled together then and they will now. We'll have to produce a lot more products than we are doing now - get away from service industry and back to agriculture and manufactoring. The transition will be ugly because of our packed urban areas and too many jobs in the service industry instead of producing. People will die, especially the old and the sickly, but we won't implode.

IMHO

[barbtries]

47. bad times bring out the worst

and they bring out the best. we'll survive, most of us. also, people are already killing each other. i'm not so convinced it will get any worse. it's already out of control in a lot of big cities like los angeles.

[bertman]

48. There's more than one method of population control. Just ask Chairman Mao.