Would you support a magic Wizard giving $3,000, an I-phone and a pony to every American?

[HamdenRice]

Poll question: Would you support a magic Wizard giving $3,000, an I-phone and a pony to every American?

And because this is being provided by a magic wizard, the $3,000 won't increase the national debt or cause inflation, the I-phones won't cause any environmental damage or exploit any workers in their manufacturing process, and the ponies will all be treated humanely (in fact, any pony offered to anyone who doesn't want or can't use their pony will end up on a pony ranch where it will eat oats and frolick happily for the rest of its life).

The only draw back is: because the "Wall Street greedy fat cats," "yuppies with flat screen tvs," "members of the investing class," and purchasers of McMansions who took on too much debt are all aoso Americans they also will each get $3,000, an I-phone and a pony.

I realize that this is an impossible, fantasy situation, but I ask you to treat it as a hypothetical - a fantasy situation that helps us understand each other's underlying beliefs and feelings.

Feel free to explain your choices as replies.

On Edit: The I-phone service would be free, of course!

[sendero]

1. Keep selling your nonsense..

... only dumbasses are buying.

There is no free anything, and that is the problem. This bailout will have to be paid for with printed money which will drive up interest rates and drive down the dollar.

The "there is a free lunch bailout" theory is only accepted by the ignorant and the fearful.

[HamdenRice]

4. So you think Obama is a dumb ass?

There's a post on the Greatest Page right now that quotes a long passage of Obama's speech endorsing a rescue plan.

And this post actually has nothing directly to do with the bailout. It's at attempt to understand the underlying "economic culture" of DU membership.

[sendero]

7. Obama..

.. is a dumbass in his support for this bill. I will vote for him anyway, because McCain is a bigger dumbass, but this bill is a disaster.

IMHO, DUers are only a little smarter than the public at large when it comes to economics.

There are a lot of folks here that seem to think you can just print up 700B dollars and fix your problems. If only it were that simple, we could just print a million for everyone and be done with it.

[HamdenRice]

14. "Obama.. is a dumbass"

Well, OK, and you're much much smarter, right?

I guess I know precisely how much credit to give your arguments now.

[sendero]

16. When it comes to economic..

.... matters, probably.

Obama is a constitutional law scholar and a politician. He's for this bailout not because of his understanding of economics.

He's for it for political, not practical reasons, the same reason most senate Dems voted for the IWR.

It doesn't bother me that he wants to do something, but it does bother me that he thinks this steaming pile of legislation has any merit whatsoever.

[Romulox]

20. Obama's chief economist is the head economist for the DLC. nt

[girl gone mad]

24. Was Obama talking about this specific crisis 3 months ago?

A year ago? 5 years ago? Some of us were.

Obama is trying to win an election. I guess he has been advised not to stick his neck out.

I think that's too bad. He could certainly be taking good advice from the many economists who predicted this mess and present a plan that restored faith in our banks without saddling us with another Trillion in bad debt.

[Romulox]

12. It's well documented that Obama is one of the top recipient of money from the financial industry.

Who's paying you? :hi: :silly:

[depakid]

17. "This bailout will have to be paid for with printed money" errr. NO

James Galbraith describes it this way (he now supports the bill btw):

Many are concerned with the fiscal implications of this bill, so let me turn to that question. Despite the common use of language, the capital cost of this bill does not involve "taxpayer dollars." It authorizes a financial transaction, exchanging good debt (U.S. Treasury bills and bonds) for bad debt (the "troubled assets"). Many of those troubled assets will continue to earn income for some time, perhaps a long time.

The U.S. Treasury commits itself to paying the interest on the debts it issues. The net fiscal cost -- which is also the net fiscal stimulus -- of this bill is the difference between those two revenue streams. Given the very low rate of interest presently prevailing on Treasury bills, this is likely to be somewhere between $20 billion per year and zero from the beginning, even if the Treasury were to issue all $700 billion in new debt at once. It is a mistake, in short, to count the capital cost as a "cost to the taxpayer." This is not the war in Iraq.

In the longer run, of course the Treasury will incur capital losses on the assets it acquires. The entire purpose of the bill is to overpay for bad assets, so as to give financial institutions a chance to recapitalize themselves. The proposal to recoup that capital at a later date through a fee on the same institutions strikes me as being somewhat defeating of the very purpose of the bill. If it is desirable to raise tax revenues to cover the running cost, a turnover tax in the stock market is an attractive alternative -- if it could be passed.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=how_much_will_it_cost_and_will_it_come_soon_enough

[Romulox]

19. "The Iraq War will pay for itself." -2003. "The bailout will pay for itself." -2008.

"In the longer run, of course the Treasury will incur capital losses on the assets it acquires. The entire purpose of the bill is to overpay for bad assets, "

Code words for "let's just fob the debt onto our grandkids!" :eyes:

[depakid]

21. Galbraith SPECIFICALLY NOTED that the situation is NOT like the Iraq

Yet you demogogue on it anyway- and demonmstrate that you don't know how the financing works- nor how we can raise revenue down the line from wall street to pay for it.

Amazing.

I'd never considered that there were so many ideologues on DU before.

[Romulox]

23. He ASSERTS (with no additional facts) that it will not. I am not convinced.

PS "Demagogue" = / = "disagree with you." Your allies are the ones hollering Terra, terra, terra!! if we don't pass the Wall Street Welfare bill.

"I'd never considered that there were so many ideologues on DU before."

Because believing in stuff is bad. :sarcasm:

[depakid]

26. Wow

That's an even more twisted post than the last one.

demagoguery - impassioned appeals to the prejudices and emotions of the populace- misuse of the Iraq war applies, whereas consequences that experts warn of if credit markets dry up- consequences that we're already seeing are not (though you're attempt to charcterize them as terra IS)

ideologue - a person who follows an ideology in a dogmatic or uncompromising way.

That about sums up 2/3's of the people arguing against the bill.

[Romulox]

33. LOL. Wow. Just wow.

"demagoguery - impassioned appeals to the prejudices and emotions of the populace- misuse of the Iraq war applies, whereas consequences that experts warn of if credit markets dry up- consequences that we're already seeing are not (though you're attempt to charcterize them as terra IS) "

In other words, someone who appeals to fear to manipulate the public. Like you and Hank Paulson are doing! In fact, the "Wow. Just wow." crap is the very soul of demagoguery. :hi:

"ideologue - a person who follows an ideology in a dogmatic or uncompromising way.

That about sums up 2/3's of the people arguing against the bill."

It also sums up 2/3s of the people arguing for the bill. You seem to think that your P.O.V. is neutral, unaffected by the vile "ideology" (LOL). Sorry to tell you, your P.O.V. is similarly informed by your value system.

[girl gone mad]

36. It would make more sense..

for the government to exchange Treasury bonds for standard corporate bonds - that would eliminate the immediate need for banks to be "recapitalized" by cutting out the middleman, and it's a lot less risky for the taxpayer.

[eShirl]

2. the magic wizard should only give ponies to people who are capable of and willing to properly

take care of them.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

35. No kidding, after watching that show on T.V. about those sick animals...

No kidding, after watching that show on T.V. (Animal Planet and other shows) about those sick animals...
There are some really :puke: people out there.

EDIT: HSPCA got there hands full already.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. I'll pass on the pony.

A parrot on my shoulder, as mine often is, is fun enough. I have no idea how I would deal with a pony up there.

[HamdenRice]

6. It's a DU thing. Whenever you suggest a positive outcome, someone always says ...

and why don't you throw in a pony. So I preemtively threw in a pony.

[Marrah_G]

30. Can it be a Shetland Pony?

[HamdenRice]

38. Yes, it can be any kind of pony you like! nt

[Marrah_G]

40. OOOOoooo.... I would like a black shetland pony then please!

[pnutbutr]

5. I don't

have the money to pay for the service plan for an iphone and I despise Apple anyways. Also don't have the money to feed a pony. I guess I could eat the pony and sell the iphone but everyone already has one so it probably won't sell.

Come on magic wizard, let's all eat pony. :evilgrin:

[HamdenRice]

8. Edited to reflect the phone service is free

But that is devilish, suggesting the pony burgers!

:rofl:

[MadHound]

9. More fantasy from you, at least this time you admit as such

You've still got your head in the sand concerning the destruction the Paulson Plan bailout bill will cause, you know, downgrading of US Treasury Bonds, no funding for our government, collapse of said government and our country. Yet you continue to ignore this economic reality, instead preferring to keep your head in the fantasy world of bailouts, ponies, i-pods, and free cash. At least now you're recognizing that you're living in a fantasy world. As they say, admitting to a problem is the first step towards correcting that problem.

[Romulox]

10. The first rule of economics? "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

Nice try in "educating" us, though. :silly:

[HamdenRice]

11. Not when there is a Magic Wizard involved!

[Romulox]

13. So Hank Paulson is a "magic wizard" to you, and crippling debt is a pony?

:silly:

[HamdenRice]

15. No this is intended to be a pure hypothetical

I'm trying to understand the underlying feelings about economics, not what people think about this particular plan.

[Romulox]

18. Nonsense. It's a weak attempt at a metaphor. nt

[HamdenRice]

22. Thank you for your attempt at mind reading

but I must inform you that your vulcan mind meld didn't work. You can't do it over the internet. You would actually have to grasp my forehead for that.

[Romulox]

25. Thank you for tirelessly shilling for the haves. nt

[PVnRT]

31. Don't bother arguing

That poster is the self-proclaimed representative of true Americans, i.e., factory workers in Michigan and Ohio. You won't win.

[Romulox]

34. LOL. Watch out! He may be an OMG "FACTORY WORKER"!11!!1!11

Why aren't you on Free Republic? :puke:

[girl gone mad]

27. The only ones getting any unicorns..

are the banks who just got done rounding up everyone else's unicorns and shooting them in the head.

What do you think they plan to do with these unicorns? Hand them back over to poor Americans?

[PVnRT]

28. Can I get a +2 Mace of Thunder instead?

[Marrah_G]

32. I think that is worth more then 3000 gold........

[PVnRT]

37. How is the little guy supposed to fight off bands of orcs

With only a +1 Mace of Healing?

[Marrah_G]

39. Well first of all..........

Only healers should be wielding the +1 mace of healing and any smirking jack worth his salt knows that a healer ought not to be walking around alone in orc infested areas !

I suggest using some of the 3000 gold to convince a warrior that you are his bestest friend and if he will go with you, you will even let him borrow your I-phone.

[PVnRT]

43. Great, another apologist for Magic Wizards

I suppose your nice and comfortable in your Circle of Protection, huh? :eyes:

[Marrah_G]

44. Why yes....... yes I am.

I have lawn chairs and ton of food/drink in my Bag of Holding. In fact I am hosting a Magic Wizard dinner party in my circle tonight!

I would ask you to come but.....I'm afraid there are just to many orcs between you and my circle for your puny +1 Mace of Healing to deal with!

If you do happen to make it through, please bring along some Mountain Dew.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

29. I'm sure AT$T would like that idea!............NOT

They would loose a lot of money and then want a piece of the "buy-out"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. yes, i would very much like a pony. especially a pony w.no deleterious

consequences

[El Pinko]

42. Of course not. Giving ipods and ponies to those who already have ROOMS full of them is wrong.

NT

[McCamy Taylor]

45. Apple would go bankrupt and the ponies would drive up corn and feed prices.

So the "free gifts" would wreck the economy. We would end up having to kill the ponies and using them for food, which would traumatize all the kids who would have to have therapy, which insurance does not have, which would tax our already strapped mental health system.

And without Apple as competition, Microsoft would be able to raise prices and lower quality, so our computers would suck and our civilization would decline putting our safety at risk (from disease, accident etc.)

Plus all the traumatized kids would grow up to be depressed apathetic adults in a world with crappy computers that do not work and where random bad things are likely to happen at any moment because of computer error. This would increase the rate of suicide and eventually someone would decide that life on earth was no longer worth maintaining, leading to multiple Doomsday cults, one of which would succeed in its mission.


Now, if you just fork over the cash, I think you are onto something...