Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Populism vs Libertarianism

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:23 PM
Original message
Poll question: Populism vs Libertarianism
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 03:11 PM by Naturyl
This is the real economic axis in America, not the staged and managed "liberal vs conservative" meme.

Populists want regulated markets and greater economic equality. Libertarians want free markets and greater economic freedom. Populists want those with the least to have more, even if it means those with the most have less. Libertarians want to preserve the opportunity for those with the most to have more, even if it means those with the least have less.

Even places like DU are feeling the effects of this basic conflict which is widely ignored in the media.

POLL QUESTION: Would you identify yourself as closest to populism or libertarianism?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Then there are Republicans, who want all of the benefits of free markets - but none of the risks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Indeed. I call them "corporate socialists" (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Only that isn't really nice to the socialists :)
But isn't it interesting how they are for government when it comes to bailing them out...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well, neo-cons descend (ideologically) from closeted Trotskyites
I agree it isn't very nice to socialism, but privatizing the profits and socializing the risks isn't a very nice thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Libertarians are evil; they put freedom ahead of social fairness and ecnomic security.
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 02:32 PM by An Intellectual
Also, keep in mind that a large number of libertarians are secretly agorists; they actively want the government to crumble.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

You can bet they're cheering as your retirement savings crumble. :mad:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another interesting thing the past few days is watching the populists and liberatarians
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 02:27 PM by TBF
fight for the exact same result for very different reasons. McCain, of all people, has actually noticed this and jumped on board. It's a very interesting week.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yeah, this bailout has created a really weird coalition.
It's the populists and the libertarians fighting together against the "establishment" Democrats and Republicans.

This is definitely a new development on the political scene, at least during my lifetime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. well, Bu$h said he wanted to be a "uniter"
Mission accomplished! :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Lol, good point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. This is a good thing, a statement, not a question.
Great observation, I didn't see it until you mentioned it. I like the divisiveness the exposure of motives brings and you certainly can see it if thinking outside the box, thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Your so-called libertarians...
as someone earlier mentioned, seem to be decidedly populist when it comes to shouldering the risk incipient in their pursuit of opportunites.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yeah, it's funny how their tune changes, eh? (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think you have a clear understanding of what any of those terms mean.
Furthermore, your poll question represents a false dichotomy as much as the labels liberal and conservative have become.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. My use of "populism" isn't necessarily historical.
It's contemporary. But why make a drive-by accusation of ignorance without adding any argument as to why I'm wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What do you think contemporary Populism means?
And who would you consider a contemporary Populist?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Economically, it's a dynamic of "the people" vs "the elites."
John Edwards would be a good example of a contemporary populist (in presentation at least), with his "Two Americas" rhetoric. Kucinich and Sanders also have some populist elements. Even Obama has been flirting with populism off and on, although not very seriously, IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. OK, I withdraw my snipe
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 02:54 PM by salvorhardin
I see terms like that misused all the time, although I still think Populism vs. Libertarianism is a false dichotomy. Actually, I think the two terms are orthogonal.

ETA: Historically, U.S. Populism had a lot to commend for it, but it also had many looney aspects to it, like Free Silver.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. I am a pragmatists
I reject the idealism from both sides

I am for free markets, but believe that there should be some regulation to ensure that they function smoothly. I am for social programs and free education so that everyone should have equal success prosperity, but not the equality of outcomes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Sounds rather populist to me...
Populism is not for "absolute" equality of outcome either, as such a thing would be impossible on its face.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I support many populists principles
but want to protect free markets at the same time. I believe the economy works best when both ideals work in harmony. It's all about balance
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. It can't. Rapists can't stand wearing pants, they get in the way. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. The notion that one person could possibly deserve more than another is radically free-marketist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Indeed it is, but...
In reality, some will always have more than others, because that's just the way the world works.

But I agree that the principle or idea that anyone "deserves" more than anyone else is a foundation of free-market ideology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. People should be compensated by merit
The government could provide a minimum standard of living for everyone, but the people who work harder/smarter should deserve more
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I would disagree with that.
Adding the value judgments is where we have difficulties. What if everyone worked according to their abilities and got a similar, decent wage? I'll try it another way - is someone who is mentally retarded not as valuable to society as someone with a genius-level IQ? How do you define worth of a person?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. That is where free markets come into play
There doesn't have to be a big philosophical value judgment on this.

Just make sure there are the proper safety nets, social programs, and education so that everyone has the same opportunity to be successful. If people can't work for whatever reason, make sure they have a minimum standard of living by the government. This system isn't perfect, but I think it accomplishes the goal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Accomplishes what goal?
The only way everyone has the "same opportunity to be successful" is if everyone starts on the same footing. As long as you allow inheritances, you take away the equal footing part. That is how we have problems right from the get go, and unfortunately adding a few "nets" isn't going to solve the systemic issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Thank you! We need to tax inheritance at 100%; the fact that our society rewards people...
...for having fat-cat parents is absolutely revolting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I agree. Budget problems solved.
Then put that money gained towards additional education (free college), health care, other infrastructure. 90% reduction on military & overseas bases. End occupation in Iraq.

I have saved us an incredible amount of money in those 2 sentences.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
An Intellectual Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Whew! Freedom should never come before social-justice, social equity, and economic security.
I was beginning to wonder whether everyone here worshiped at the alter of the free-market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Yes I think it just depends on what your definition of "freedom" is :)
My definition includes people not being subjugated to others, no matter what kind of power you're talking about. But I'm probably at the wrong place to go into all that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. You might be at the right place to read this:
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 11:46 PM by Naturyl
http://naturyl.humanists.net/synthesis/freedom.html

I think you and An Intellectual would both be interested, actually.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
16. I am a populist but my vote did not register.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Get used to it, lol.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
23. I voted the populism option, but suspect that it is, as you define it,
a false analogy.

Equality of opportunity, which you call libertarianism, is a direct result of equality of outcome. IOW, for those who have opportunity weighted in their favor, the outcome is almost always to their benefit (think Bush), and libertarians don't really want equality of opportunity - they want preference of opportunity - you said it yourself, "Libertarians want to preserve the opportunity for those with the most to have more, even if it means those with the least have less." There in no "equality" in there.

Populists want everybody to have an equal shot - that doesn't guarantee results. The best way to guarantee an equal shot is to allow a boost for those who start with the least. Affirmative Action is a populist ideal - give those who are disadvantage an equal spot on the starting line. That doesn't mean that they will automatically have an advantage - it just eliminates a dis-advantage. If, after getting into school or getting a job or contract because of affirmative action, they can't cut it, then it's their problem.

I see populism as being communal in nature - and libertarianism as social Darwinism. Recently seeing 'Lost' on SciFi, the doctor is the populist and the asshole hoarder/thief is the libertarian.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You make some excellent points.
I'm glad you added this post and I can find nothing to disagree with.

I've called extreme libertarianism social Darwinism for a long time. And indeed, that's what it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. Capra-style populism for the most part...
Capra-style populism for the most part, but with the conscious removal of his anti-intellectual streak.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mesteryo Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. I'm a utilitarian...
We should apply economic policies that bring the maximum satisfaction to the maximum number of people. Without economic growth good luck paying for social programs and govt. services unless you want 50% taxation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. 50% would be a good start. (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mesteryo Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. only if you're rich..
The rest of us couldn't afford it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Dec 22nd 2014, 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC