The one that bugs me most-"It's not fair those of us who didn't get into debt have to suffer"

[El Pinko]

I've heard this several times from mostly middle-class and well-to-do people, often people who voted for Bush:

"It's not right that we should get taxed because a bunch of poor people got knee-deep in debt! It's not fair!"

Now, maybe they are not all guilty, but there are a LOT of "responsible citizens" who are not in debt, and are just as responsible for this as any subprime borrower or maxed-out single parent.

Because they voted for "no new taxes" (translation, tax cut for the rich) every time. They voted for people who worked to export all our good jobs, every time. They voted for a pointless war that has sucked a TRILLION dollars out of our economy. They voted for more and more deregulation, and they got it in spades.

And that's not all. They held shares in, and ran the boards of companies like Citigroup, BofA, CapitalOne and Chase, and endorsed those companies' policies to keep sending more and more credit cards to people who they KNEW were already in debt and did not have the income to pay back. They sat on the boards of the companies writing the Subprime, Alt-A, HELOCs and other exotic instruments - and they PROFITED from it all, year after year.

And the ones making 6 figures or better got hefty tax cuts, and their wages rose while the rest of ours fell, making debt more and more of a necessity just to get by, but they KEPT VOTING FOR MORE OF THE SAME.

And GODDAMN it if I don't STILL hear idiots saying "I'm gonna vote fer McCain b'cuz he's a "fiscal conservative" and won't raise taxes and spend a bunch of money on welfare.



I am so fucking sick of the sort of white, middle-class Americans who insist that their greed and selfishness is unconnected to this mess, and cry innocence when the fruits of their deeds over the last 28 years start to hit the fan.

To hell with you people.

[Smart Guy 4 Freedom]

1. As usual, the neocons talk out of both sides of their face.

Limpball and other neocon tools blame this whole mess on a couple of million minority borrowers who got in a bit over their heads. Yet, there were absolutely NO, none, nada, provisions for stopping one single foreclosure of these supposed irresponsible borrowers.

If a couple of million foreclosures is what is causing all this mess, then preventing these foreclosures should stop this crisis. But none of that was addressed in this Wall Street bailout. Funny, huh?

[El Pinko]

3. A *LOT* of the mortgage crisis is overextended white middle-class suburbanites...

...who had to overstretch to buy in overpriced bubble areas like CA, FL, Vegas and Phoenix.

The BS about it all being "minorities" is a RW strawman.

[The 12th Guru]

37. Adjustable Rate mortgages alone, Stetched thin McMansion owner meet foreclosure

They get a divorce, lose a job, need to scale down with rising costs of utilities. They find out they owe more than their house is worth by hundreds of thousands of dollars possibly. They can't sell their vacation home or their 50k SUV gas machine. times can get tough fast.


Their mortgage payment as the rates went up last year could of jumped a lot. I am a young professional and do not own a home, prices in Boston were too high. But my Parents told me their mortgage payment jumped like 30%, can all the people who bought up or had to stretch thin to afford the bubble prices, could they take a jump in payment from 7500 to 9500 or 10000 or 10500 even. That happened to a lot of people and they were forced to try to sell and people started finding out they owed money cause the house values had decreased or they couldn't find buyers at the price they were selling.

[Wednesdays]

31. Enjoy your stay

:hi:

You might learn a few new things.

[snot]

2. question

i'm what by modern standards would prolly qualify as a pinko.

i've worked hard since i was 16, and i've minimized my debt. i'm about to retire, unless this fiasco eviscerates my savings. naturally i'd prefer for that not to happen.

i'm not at all complaining about poor people in debt.

it's the rich people in debt that are driving this, and ruining the rest of us.

where are you hearing this "I'm gonna vote fer McCain b'cuz he's a "fiscal conservative" and won't raise taxes and spend a bunch of money on welfare"?

because i'm not hearing it. do i just not watch enuf corporate tv?

[El Pinko]

5. Please come and visit the great state of Texas sometime.

It's OVERRUN with them.

[snot]

7. actually . . .

that's where i live.

guess i'm in a tinee librul part?

[madmom]

33. also the (not so) great state of Ohio, you can look around and see people so

poor they can't afford not to work two jobs but they''ll vote repug every time. The dumbing down succeeded very well around here.

[PVnRT]

4. Funny - I've heard the same sentiment a few times on DU

People saying that their tax dollars shouldn't bail anyone out because they've worked hard and not made any mistakes.

Funny how that works.

[Wednesdays]

32. I know! One prominent member ranted about how he saved for retirement

and stopped just short of saying, "...and I'll be hell-bent if I'll help anyone else out!" :banghead:

[Vickers]

36. Who?

:shrug:

[screembloodymurder]

6. When you socialize risk and reward risky behavior,

you send a message:

If you live within your means, we will confiscate your savings to bail out those who act irresponsibly.

That's not only unfair, it's wrong!

[El Pinko]

8. Of course that is true.

I'm just saying there are a lot more people complicit in this than just the fat cats and the foreclosees.

[hlthe2b]

9. I agree

That also applies to some DUers moaning and groaning how unfair it is to THEM.... I hate this bill and pissed at the necessity for it. I am pleased that a message has been sent that the bailout needs to help the people, and not just the powerful. Yet....... I know it needs to happen.

I'm hurting too, but live within my means and am not carrying the mortgage debt that this bill is meant to address. But, damn if I may not need to borrow money in the future... Selfishness on this one, is not just a repug trait, I'm afraid.

[El Pinko]

11. Well, I don't support the bailout...

...but as for the blame, well, at least we can all agree pretty much on that...

[hlthe2b]

13. Well, there is where symantecs comes in.... Do ANY OF us

SUPPORT the bailout? I dare say no.... And further, none of us (progessives) trust the players. So how do we determine if, indeed, SOMETHING needs to be done? I do have some trust in folks like Krugman and some of our most knowledgable online progressive bloggers that are out seeking external opinions from their trusted liberal economist contacts.

So, no, I do not support the bailout. I have come to the very reluctant conclusion that something must be done and I suppose that's where the symantecs come into play, because any intervention is likely going to come down to a "bailout."

[markevil]

10. credit vs. pay increase

Wages have stagnated for the past seven years while costs have all increased.. Basically a pay cut.. People were offered (and used) credit as a replacement for this loss of buying power. Some abused it but alot used credit just to get by. The REAL solution is an increase in wages.

[closeupready]

12. Exactly and this is why nobody is talking tax increase in order to get our fiscal house

back in order so we can address these fiscal crises, because the cowards in DC don't have the backbone to tell Americans, "we're going to have to think about a tax increase."

[alarimer]

43. They need to raise taxes on the top 1% for sure.

And they need to do it now. Those people pay less taxes than the middle class and this is why we are in this fix.

[HughBeaumont]

14. Useful Idiots are awesome, aren't they?

"Fool me Once, Shame On You. Fool me Twice, Shame on Me."

There are more than a few words for those "fooled" a Third time.

Useful idiocy is the unfortunate result of one's refusal to accept he/she is a peasant.

It's probably because the useful idiots don't have the first clue as to how corporate economics or a fiat money system works. They just believe whatever the Angry White Guy Channels tell them.

Plus to them - "tax dollars for people other than upper-middle class to rich white guys such as myself = SOSHULISM! Bailin' out corporations that I'm a'gonna run someday . . . well that's basically OK."

[Davis_X_Machina]

15. They're counting...

..on the fact that in a flood, the tall guys drown last.

But they still drown. And these people have no conception of how 'tall' you have to be to survive.

[seabeyond]

16. i dont say it isnt fair, but i hold responsibility to people indebting their selves beyond what they

can handle. but let me be clear. i dont see that it is the "poor" that has done this. not what i see in my area. it is the middle class wanting the mcmansion in they neighborhood and all the other goodies.

and these are the very people that vote against their interest and for bush

let me explain

i worked in a dry cleaners on the upper class neighborhood. they would have a dry cleaning bill of 200 a month. they had less money in their account, not pay their bill, bounce checks than i did and i made little money. they were living and are living beyond their means.

i think it is a horrible way to live, stress when not necessary.

but i dont think the lending is the poor.

[seabeyond]

17. i dont say it isnt fair, but i hold responsibility to people indebting their selves beyond what they

can handle. but let me be clear. i dont see that it is the "poor" that has done this. not what i see in my area. it is the middle class wanting the mcmansion in they neighborhood and all the other goodies.

and these are the very people that vote against their interest and for bush

let me explain

i worked in a dry cleaners on the upper class neighborhood. they would have a dry cleaning bill of 200 a month. they had less money in their account, not pay their bill, bounce checks than i did and i made little money. they were living and are living beyond their means.

i think it is a horrible way to live, stress when not necessary.

but i dont think the lending is the poor.

[MiniMe]

20. And then there were those who could afford a house or whatever when they bought it

And now, due to illness or unemployment or death or some other calamity, can't afford it now. And thanks to the housing bubble, they can't sell their house for the mortgage amount. Obviously there are people who are living above their means and spent money unwisely and used credit to do it, but that isn't the whole story for many.

[El Pinko]

23. That risk has always existed - they are a tiny fraction of the crisis.

There has always been a certain number of foreclosures each year- and the people you describe were the ones it happened to.


The meltdown was caused by people who had no down payments and bought knowing that the initial "low" payment would eat up most of their paycheck, but they planned to sell at a profit before the payment reset.

[MiniMe]

29. The one thing that has changed is the extended periods of unemployment

People are having a hard finding a job when they have been layed off. And the layoffs are coming in droves right now. Most of these people just want a place to live, they do not want to profit. Of course that doesn't apply to everybody, but it applies now more than ever now. And a lot of it is due to the lender's greed. The lender's had salesman convincing people that they could afford the mortgage, the housing market would be strong, and telling people that their salary would increase in the coming years. And telling them that they could refinance at a later date if needed. Not all of them want to sell at a profit, some just planned on refinancing.

Those who are caught because they were playing the system to make huge profits I have no sympathy for.

[seabeyond]

38. in times mag hubby reading to me what inflation would put stuff at like gas

i dont know.... in 1920 gas was.... and should be now 3.14 (or something). cars, ect....

i told hubby

now tell me what the wage was and what the increase should be today

because the article was showing that they should be at what they are today, but i know wage is not what it should be today either, and that is so very very relevent. but it wasnt in the article

[jhrobbins]

25. Thank You for this - this is exactly the situation we find ourselves

in right now - our house will be up for foreclosure soon and all because we had the stupidity to get sick. We both had good jobs and certainly did not buy more than we could afford. I though have severe rheumatoid arthritis and a heart condition and then my partner has the temerity to get MS. So we are screwed unless some sort of bailout happens because we cannot stay where we are at the current situation and now neither one of us would be able to physically make the move. (Also, we have animals that we would have to give away if we rented and I would rather shoot myself than entertain that) So, we are a part of that group in whose future lies in the hands of COngress.

[MiniMe]

30. ...

:hug: I'm sorry to hear of your story. It's a sin that this can happen.

Hopefully, this will give you a laugh today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB_Q3ON12Yo

[seabeyond]

27. of course it isnt the whole story. but it is/was a trend in the u.s. people say poor

and i dont think it is on the "poor" shoulder. that was my point of my post

[Warpy]

18. Well, it ISN'T fair

I didn't get those trips to Europe, that plasma TV, or even furniture that wasn't somebody else's castoff. I didn't get to buy clothing new. I stayed out of debt and haven't had a credit card since they started to charge junk fees in 1991. I'm going to be dragged down with the debtors.

The last GOP I voted for was Ed Brooke. I voted against him when Tsongas ran and there is no way in hell I'd vote GOP after Reagan gave the party to the rapture addled and greedheads.

It's not fair that those of us who did all the right things are being dragged down by the stupid and greedy bastards who voted GOP, but it always happens that way when the bastards get control too long.

We're allowed to complain.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Totally agree...see my post below

:thumbsup:

[hack89]

19. Come to Rhode Island

the bluest of blue states to hear that from mostly middle-class and well-to-do people who most likely voted for Gore and will vote for Obama. I am not convinced it is a right wing - left wing thing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. I vote Democratic every time, and I think some of it is not fair

I went to graduate school for 6 years, and we lived on a shoe string. We rented apartments that were within our price range. We still drive a 1999 Altima, which we bought used, and it's completely paid off. We didn't get new clothes by the bushel-full every season. We budget for food, and we save a decent portion of our income every month. A good percentage of our income goes to daycare, which we treat as a real expense that prevents us from doing other things. We don't go on extravagant vacations. In fact, we don't really go on vacation, so much as we visit family back east.

Explain to me how I'm responsible for jobs getting moved overseas? Explain to me why I should bail out people who were completely irresponsible in the way they took out loans and maxed out their credit cards?

I can see exceptions for people who had verifiable health problems. But I don't understand why I'm paying for somebody's house, when a house is precisely what we sacrificed to live within our means. I don't claim to be perfect, but we had choices every time: should we buy this, should we buy that? No, we can't afford it. No, we need to get other things. No, that interest rate is too high. No, that's TOO RISKY.

So, is our reward for being frugal and reasonable about our finances that we get to pay for the house of somebody who wasn't? Gee, fucking thanks.

[El Pinko]

24. I didn't say "you" nor did I say "everyone"

But there are a damn lot of people pretending like they had nothing to do with it, even though they voted for it, invested in it and PROFITED from it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. Meh

[marions ghost]

28. Absolutely!

"...but there are a LOT of "responsible citizens" who are not in debt, and are just as responsible for this as any subprime borrower or maxed-out single parent."

THANK YOU. This needs to be said clearly. :applause:

I'm so tired of the righteous attitude that tries to ensure absolution for a large group of Americans who were, no matter how much they want to deny it--complicit in supporting the very policies that have brought the country to its knees.

On all the points you listed by way of example: Tax cuts for the rich. Outsourcing. The War. Deregulation.

WHO voted IN SUPPORT of all these things??--a LOT of Americans who are now whining.

These people are disgusting.

[Gregorian]

34. Well I'm one of those people. Except I voted for Kucinich.

Both my parents and I believed that debt was a horrible mistake. Of course we had a mortgage at one time in our lives. But I have at least one friend who swears by debt. He loves debt. And I think he's nuts. So while these other people were buying and living high on the hog, I was struggling and frightened, and paying my monthly bills. Now I am rather pissed off that I am going to be on the hook for the irresponsible, when I was straight and narrow.

But then the masses always fucked up whatever I liked. I'm used to it.

Just don't lump all well-off people into one boat. I'd even say that Soros isn't one of those. But then he did speculate.

[El Pinko]

35. How are you one of them?

Did you vote GOP? Did you speculate on housing? Did you invest in Capital One?

Then yes, you are partly to blame.

If not, then I'm not talking about you. It's not about whether you are "well-off" or not, necessarily, it's just that the well off are often the ones who act the most entitled, and (willfully) oblivious to their own complicity in the economic mess.

[Gregorian]

41. OK, I'm not really one of them.

My story is that I made a fortune in real estate. BUT, here's the odd part. I never meant to make money. In fact I hate money. I was forced to run from place to place to escape the morons and the developments. And in doing so I made more and more each time.

So I lied to even myself. I didn't speculate. I profited. And the odd part is, I'm really upset. I never wanted money. I wanted beauty. I wanted silence. I'm really the antithesis of those who speculated. I quit a very high paying job and headed for essentially poverty.

I still want my silence. I'm afraid I'm going to die angry. Now you'd be angry if you saw where I lived. My own private ranch. I forgot what this thread was about.

Speaking of money, I'm on my way out to wax my Porsche. I'm selling it. I don't want any of this crap any more. Give me a bicycle. I hate cars and noise and nasty republicans.

OK, I'm blabbing. I apologize.

[El Pinko]

42. I wouldn't be angry about your ranch - I grew up on a ranch.

I personally don't romanticize small-town life or miss it in the least although it was "quiet".

My family had more money than sense back in the day - of course their money came from running one of the biggest poultry ranches in the country - an actual productive economic activity.

I wonder what my great-grandfather - the one who built the business - would think about our economy today - one whose foundation is credit cards, cheap imported crap, chain "restaurants", and selling houses to each other...


Anyway, best of luck to you in your quest for serenity...

[Romulox]

39. They're right. This is a bailout of those who preach "free markets" and "personal responsibility"

[Romulox]

40. Umm, "white, middle-class Americans" "ran the boards of companies like Citigroup, BofA, CapitalOne"?

No.

[El Pinko]

44. No, white middle class americans played the stock market casino and invested in those companies...

...and they made money by flipping- exploiting the very mania that led to the crash. Obviously only the upper echelons sat in the boardrooms, but even small shareholders have a voice - they could let their feet do the talking if they gave a damn.

[loyalkydem]

45. I will say this

If I ever come into six figures, I'll be happy to pay my share of taxes. But to blame us and I'm an African-American. So your going to blame me for the mess were in? People like Terry Jefferies should be fucking shot