I welcome a Socialist scenario. Bring. it. on.

[Taverner]

Right now, if the government were actually interested in correcting the direction we are in now, they would:

- Nationalize all banks. Ensure all deposits and all accounts with Federal money.
- Nationalize the oil companies. Right now, they are part of the problem.
- Nationalize the health care system, right from the big hospitals, to the insurance companies, to big pharma. Let the small clinics stand.
- Nationalize the Federal Reserve Bank. For those of you who think its already owned by the taxpayers, think again.
- Bring the UN in to oversee this election. With the last three, we need this oversight
- Nationalize the insurance industry.

Later, we can privatize if needed. Right now, little sixteen year old Jimmy P. Enterprise has shown every time he drives the family car he wrecks it. Take the keys.

[Virginia Dare]

1. Which is why the republicons are freaking out right now...n/t

[chill_wind]

30. AND centrist Wall Street Democrats

which we are plenty awash in.

[mike_c]

2. hear hear!

That's exactly what I support. Recommended!

[gypsylud]

3. AMEN BROTHER

I totally agree, and was crafting a similar post!

[Night_Nurse]

4. Amen! I was just saying something similar to a friend... nt

[deutsey]

5. Same here. n/t

[fascisthunter]

6. I Agree...

[earth mom]

7. Too bad we don't have an FDR running for prez. Betcha Gore would fix things. nt

[Taverner]

8. Obama is as close as we are going to get in our lifetime

And that's not bad...

If any comparison can be made, FDR is the closest to Obama...

[earth mom]

28. Obama hasn't been far enough left for my liking, but I'm hoping he will kick butt once elected.

So I'm keeping my fingers crossed because a McCain/Palin administration is the absolute worst thing that could happen to this country, after 8 years of * that is. :yoiks:

[bvar22]

35. I want some of what you are smoking.

Obama is a "Free Trade" Centrist who has DLC/AIPAC approval.

Our real work begins after we get him elected.

[pnutbutr]

9. But...I don't want to live in

Venezuela.

[wvbygod]

10. Because the Government does such a good job running a business?

There is not a good track record to trust they would do it any better.

We could start by locking up the criminals that ripped to people off and setting an example.

[Taverner]

11. They do? How about the USPS? It actually makes money

Its a hybrid, mind you - but it makes money.

Don't let the price of stamps fool you - it hasn't even kept up with inflation.

And as for pure govt agencies - I can think of hundreds that run well

[YOY]

17. Actually Taverner before someone brings it up. We are a hybrid too and we don't: Amtrak

Then again passenger rail is a money loser world wide. In areas that it has been "privatized" (it's not true privitization) the rail system is modern...we are years behind despite being one of the best bets to the gas crunch.

[Taverner]

19. True, Amtrak doesn't work (yet)

But its a different model than the USPS

Amtrak should be shadowing the French - their system is Government owned, and turns a profit - AND THEY HAVE BULLET TRAINS!!!!

[YOY]

20. They also invested heavily to get to that point...

That means the "company" (we are a company) must own their own rails.

That means dedicated high speed rail lines that are maintained instead of standard rail.

That means numerous other lines and new stations.

That's a lot of money and labor. I welcome it.

We've been starved for years and then criticized for being too skinny.

[Taverner]

25. Sounds good to me

As we say in sales, you have to spend money to make money

[wvbygod]

27. I'm all for a big rail right now

Including GOV trains. There are enough metrosexuals, business and urban sightseers that
a solid connection between the cities would be great. It has my support.

[wvbygod]

26. Maybe I should not use the DMV, SSA, HUD etc as examples

Because they are enough to make a non-postal worker turn ugly.

[Greyhound]

49. From Medicare to the USPS, the government, when not under Republik control, does a better

job at about 10% of the cost, than so-called "private companies".

"The whole government is bad" meme has been such an integral part of reich-wing indoctrination for so long, hardly anybody even questions it any more.

Your post reflects the success of this Big Lie Campaign. Before you bring up AMTRAK, look at what has been done to it over the last 40 years, they created that debacle specifically to be the poster child for "government mismanagement".

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

12. Who wouldn't want to live somewhere like Sweden or Denmark

where a lot of that is already in place?

[YOY]

23. You mean where people actually have interests beyond making money???

That would mean joining clubs and being involved in our community even if it is beyond our station in life or (heaven forbid) above it! Preposterous...it simply doesn't leave room for "I got mine. FU."

[avaistheone1]

33. Norway and Finland have socialist democratic perspectives as well.

[YOY]

37. I have lived in Sweden for a year

You ain't kiddin' me.

FReeps claim that could never work here because we have such a diverse population...read: Dem negroes ain't like us!

[norepubsin08]

13. I am with you all the way

except we need to NATIONALIZE EVERYTHING!!!! BUSINESS IN THE CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM IS ON THE FACE OF IT..EVIL. IT IS THERE FOR ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY-TO FUCK YOU OVER!!! The goal of business is to get as much of your cash as it can...it doesn't matter how it's done, just so long as it is done legally. A gray area for many business (they don't even care if it is legal or not)

[Taverner]

24. Um, no

I hate to argue in favor of Capitalism but I have lived and been to Communist countries.

Take away the profit motive and you take away the will to work.

Leave some profit motive and the will to work goes up exponentially

[coalition_unwilling]

14. Don't forget to nationalize the defense industry and cut the

defense budget by 50-70%.

[YOY]

18. That's the one that is a must.

A complete "must".

[coalition_unwilling]

21. It's also the 5,000 pound elephant in the room that no one mentions. To wit,

government seeks a $700 billion bailout. Total annual defense expenditures (when costs for Iraq-nam, Afganistan-nam and DoEnergy appropriations for nuclear weapons are factored in ) probably easily exceed $700 billion.

Q.E.D.

[Evoman]

31. No shit....people have no idea about the money involved in the arms trade.

[dana_b]

45. right! and cut the privitization of the defense industry

including corporations like Blackwater.

[NeedleCast]

15. Yes, Nationalizing everything under Bush seems like a great idea

No wait...it doesn't.

[dana_b]

46. wait for Obama n/t

[LeftyFingerPop]

16. AMEN! N/T

[redqueen]

22. Oooooh yes... nationalize the Fed!

:bounce:


Re: the bailout not happening - I think that's a pipe dream as are nationalizing the oil company, nationalizing the Fed, etc.

It'd be nice, but so would winning the lotto.

[Mabus]

29. And we could start with using our insurance company, AIG to socialize health care

We own it, let's help chart its direction.

[Taverner]

32. Sounds good

Do we, in fact, have a controlling amount of stock in that company, or are we a "private" owner of that once public stock?

[Mabus]

34. We have a 79.9% equity share

And "we" have veto power over sale of their assets. If we can tell them what they can't do, why can't we help chart the future course of the business to benefit us?

Fed in AIG rescue - $85B loan
Government response reaches dramatic new level: U.S. will take 80% stake in nation's largest insurer to prevent global financial chaos.

By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: September 17, 2008: 10:21 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- In an unprecedented move, the Federal Reserve Board is lending as much as $85 billion to rescue crumbling insurer American International Group, officials announced Tuesday evening.

The Fed authorized the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to lend AIG (AIG, Fortune 500) the funds. In return, the federal government will receive a 79.9% stake in the company.

***

AIG will sell certain of its businesses with "the least possible disruption to the overall economy." The government will have veto power over the asset sales and the payment of dividends to shareholders.


http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/16/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?cnn=yes

[Chisox08]

36. After everthing is Nationalized we also need to

Republican proof it. Because soon as they get in office they will find a way to break it.

[cliffordu]

38. I'm right there with you....

BRING IT!!!

[AntiFascist]

39. I agree with your points, but...

National Socialism in general would be a disaster. This is a sure way to start World War III. People with wealth would inevitably turn National Socialism into real fascism, America would likely get defeated, then capitalism would once again rise from the ashes. We need to learn the real lessons from World War II.

[Taverner]

40. Please Explain this. Use any Hannah Arendt sources you want.

Or any other sources for that matter.

I am just saying we seize the means of production.

Lead this country into globalism with popular control.

Make the foundations of capital firmly oversaw.

[AntiFascist]

41. Here's a good webpage...

the National Socialist Program of the 1920s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program

the German National Socialist Workers' Party is not a party exclusively for labourers; it stands for the interests of every decent and honest enterprise. It is a liberal (freiheitlich) and strictly folkic party fighting against all reactionary efforts, clerical, feudal and capitalistic privileges; but before all against the increasing influence of the Jewish commercial mentality which encroaches on public life....
...it demands the amalgamation of all European regions inhabited by Germans into a democratic and socialized Germany...
...it demands the introduction of plebiscites (referendums; democratic decision-making) for all important laws in the country...
...it demands the elimination of the rule of Jewish banks over our economic life and the establishment of People's Banks under democratic control...<3>

For modern-day applications, replace Jewish with Islamic. Also note that initially this program stressed Democratic representation, but later this fell to the wayside in Nazi Germany.

[AntiFascist]

43. and who would be the one to lead us into this Brave New America?

Why, Sarah Palin of course. She has a lot of personality appeal, and she is "folksy" to the point of nausea. She and McCain are posturing themselves as the maverick (progressives) who are willing to stand up to the status quo's rule over our economic life and usher in an era of more democratic control. Worst of all, they would inherit all of the unitary executive privleges established by Bush including those army units being called in to suppress protestors. They would likely point out all of the Islamic ties to our financial system and stir up patriotic furvor to defeat it. This would not be a blatantly socialistic system, in fact, like Hitler, Marxism would be the real foe to defeat.

[Taverner]

44. Nazism and Socialism had nothing to do with each other, other than name

One is not the other

[AntiFascist]

50. There is a continuity between 'welfare for the rich' and social programs...

normally associated with 'Socialism'. We are seeing something like this now in the bailout negotiations. I agree that Marxism and Nazism are at the extreme ends of this spectrum and are historically bitter enemies of each other.

On edit: Also, if people begin looking toward National Socialism as an alternative to Obama then I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with McCain.

[AntiFascist]

51. Let me give an example: Military Socialism....

Notice that, in the Debate, McCain may still open to possibly invading Iran. Suppose that he proposed beefing up the ranks of the military by offering socialistic incentives: everyone enrolled in the military for x years would be guaranteed home ownership, a good government healthcare program, good education for their children, etc.

I'm not saying that this wouldn't be a good idea for veterans, but look at the larger government goal: we would be starting a major conflict, possibly World War III, to do battle over control of oil resources and extend our imperial control.

[happydreams]

42. I was writing something the other day on this. After what you suggest...

the US could then overturn its idiotic foreign policy toward socialist countries like Cuba and Venezuela and actually gain from their perspective. Extend the Bolivarian Revolution to the US. Cuba has done wonders in the fields of medicine and permaculture.

Just think of what would happen. With a sincere attempt at peace the good will that would flow is incalculable. Greatly reducing the need for the military, while increasing trade and tourism. We could also embark on an mission of peace in other areas of the world where we are now held in such low regard.


Turn our swords into plowshares.

The human race still has the means to determine its future.

[killbotfactory]

47. We would need to reform our government into an actual democracy first

If "we the people" are to have any meaningful democratic control over these industries.

[bobthedrummer]

48. I was born and raised in Milwaukee, which had three Socialist mayors-and Frank Zeidler's Milwaukee

was a very good place to grow up in. Bring it on.

Frank Zeidler Wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zeidler

[leftofthedial]

52. They aren't interested in fixing the problem.

They are interested in preserving the status quo (which has given them their position of privilege, wealth and power) AT ALL COSTS. They hope to do so in a fashion that allows them to avoid having to admit that it is the status quo that IS the problem.

Fixing the problem, for them, would be suicide.

[jpgray]

53. And you would pass this... how?