You know what? I can handle "the unthinkable"

[Avalux]

I've been alone and homeless before; I've had days where I didn't know if I'd survive to the next.

I can handle losing everything and living off the land if I need to do so. I am not afraid.

All the fat cats expecting us to bail them out wouldn't be able to do the same. They are afraid they won't be able to afford their $$$$$$ Manhattan apartments any longer.

So listen up WH and Wall Street. Don't try to bully me by saying that if the American people don't pay up, "the unthinkable" will happen. You don't care about anyone but yourselves and it's time you learn the meaning of loss.

[phantom power]

1. I've always disliked the word "unthinkable"

If a person says "X is unthinkable" it's already wrong, because they've obviously "thought it." It's a self-refuting adjective.

Furthermore, an awful lot of scenarios that get described as "unthinkable" are things that ought to be thought about, at least for worst-case planning purposes.

[dchill]

28. I can "think" anything...

but it's near impossible to "unthink" it. ;)

[avaistheone1]

36. Get with the program. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

And hand Paulsen that $800 billion dollars FAST and don't ask too many questions.

:spank:

[dchill]

43. OK, you got me...

Handing Paulson hundreds of billions of dollars IS unthinkable! :shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

50. Me too, but for other reasons

Most commonly when I've heard it, it means either 'bold reforms', i.e. cuts, in social services, or planning for a nuclear war!

[Dammit Ann]

2. I can survive, have had to before. I'm with you.

Fuck them.

[islandmkl]

3. my advice to the fat cats:

you might get ready for some real unthinkable...

[Tallison]

4. But I don't want myself and millions of others to have to

If we don't pay on the order of $500 billion to finance our way out of this now, we (the middle and lower classes) will be paying many times over that in the future. I wish you could poke yourself in the eye to drive your point home to these culprits, but you can't poke mine.

There are more than two ways around this challenge.

[Avalux]

5. My point -

They think if they use scare tactics on us, we'll cave and give it to them. I'm simply saying it won't work with me. They're nothing but con men.

[Tallison]

10. They are con men, AND this is scary!

This kind of shit is what I've feared Republican leadership will lead to for a long time. And we as a nation have realized it! If you can shrug your circumstance and quality of life off so quickly, why are you so invested in the progressive movements? I can tell you why I am: to maximize the quality of life for the maximum number of Americans. And I fear now of ever realizing that. I know that no government intervention at this point is tantamount to the same laissez-faire attitude that got us into this mess. Let them rot! Are you kidding? That's what Republicans have been saying about poor people for the last half decade, not realizing that we're all connected. High class, poor class - their fates are intertwined. No one lives on an island, and no one rots on an island, either, especially not the rich, and especially not in a global economy.

Intervention is necessary because regulation is long overdue. There are ways of constructing intervention that are invulnerable to exploitation. Discerning that, as Dems, is our challenge, and consistent with the progressive spirit.

[stillcool]

11. The problem is that there are many

economists that doubt that this will work. So you will have the middle and lower classes paying for nothing. As usual.

[Tallison]

26. As I mention below...

there are myriad solutions along the continuum between bailing out the rich and doing nothing. Neither extreme is acceptable, which is why I'm glad Congress has yet to pass any legislation.

Intervention is necessary - wise intervention.

[Virginia Dare]

16. The thing that bothers me though..

is that even after we throw all this money at them, it very likely will serve no purpose as far as we're concerned in the end. Things will still implode. This is going to be a long haul. They're just trying to steal what little money we have left so they can be off on their merry way. I say, FUCK THEM, stop putting off the inevitable and let it implode now, then we can pick up the pieces and go on.

There are no guarantees, and for that kind of money there should be.

[Tallison]

25. But there are never any guarantees; only probabilities

which is why I'm glad Congress has yet to pass any legislation.

That said, doing nothing and allowing the nexus of our financial system to implode will take down a lot more than its constructors. Intervention is necessary, because lack of intervention is what led us to this crisis. Doing nothing is tantamount to a conservative approach, which would be great, if only we all lived on separate islands. But as progressives, we've known better since the New Deal. Rich or poor, our fates are intertwined. There's no such thing as an isolated event, especially in this global economy.

The crucial thing is not just to intervene, but to do so wisely. Myriad solutions exist along the continuum between bailing out the rich and doing nothing.

[Virginia Dare]

52. I don't advocate doing nothing..

I just don't buy into the meme that we have to do it their way. They are pushing the idea hard that if we don't throw 700 billion at them, then everything is irretrievably lost.

[Mind_your_head]

30. Not only does it steal the money, but it diminishes the resources

that the next president will have available to work with in order to begin CONSTRUCTIVE/GOOD change! That's a large part of what the neocons are really aiming for with this bailout/theft thing.

[Tallison]

33. Dems right now are hammering out draft legislation that would extend

the expenditure over four years, and don't forget that Repubs are at a numerical and political disadvantage in Congress at the moment.

[Mind_your_head]

42. Haven't heard that about the expediture over four years thingy

Do you have a source for that?

All I heard when I ACTUALLY WATCHED the hearing today was a SUGGESTION by Chuck Shumer of PERHAPS giving $150 Billion and then seeing 'how well that is managed/what the results would be before more is thrown at this albatross. To which, by the way, was a BIG STUTTERING "we need ALL the money now ~ and I can't tell you/explain why that is either" answer.

A.great.big.FAIL.

edit: typo

[Tallison]

51. Yes, per Chris Dodd on C-Span Tues and on the Lehar News Hour Monday

I'll look for a print source later, but have to get to the dentist by 8am.

[bvar22]

31. I don't believe that has been sufficiently documented.

So far, its only a vague extortion threat.
"If you don't write us a blank check for $700Billion, then the economy will melt down."

I will need to see some more dots connected before I run scared.
The guys making the claims of imminent doom.....they LIE.

I also want some evidence that a $700Billion bailout won't merely postpone the inevitable, and thereby make things worse.

[Tallison]

34. It has been in just about every progressive-leaning editorial I've read

none of which share the same 'fuck 'em!' attitudes of this thread, as it's reckless. Wasn't it lack of regulation and intervention that got us into this mess to begin with?

[Seldona]

45. Supporting new regulations and interventions

is far different than saying 'fuck these companies.' One can do both. Regulate whatever entity moves in to take the place of these companies, and let the market do the rest. Isn't that what these clowns have been preaching for years? Who wants to bail out a bunch of rich assholes who want to privatize their profits and socialize their losses? Not me.

[libnnc]

6. I just want them to tell me what will happen

Don't just spout these vague references to "the unthinkable".

SAY IT ALREADY!

[Virginia Dare]

17. Former CEO's end up in bread lines..

that's what they're referring to.

[bdamomma]

39. that would be an interesting site.

CEO's in breadlines!!

[screembloodymurder]

18. They can't mention the unthinkable in front of the children.

That's what they think we are, children. And you know what, if we don't demand the truth we are children.

[Junkdrawer]

7. "You'll have a Bankers strike on your hands"...

[SmokingJacket]

8. I don't worry about myself so much.

I'm youngish, healthyish. I know how to grow food and raise animals.

I worry about people who are older or weak or barely making it as it is, or people with tons of kids.

I don't want to see another depression, with millions of families living in their cars.

That said, I don't think throwing billions of dollars at Wall Street execs is going to help regular people very much...

[anarch]

9. I hear what you people are saying

and I'm with you in feeling like those who have basically profited from the misery and servitude of others should get a taste of their own medicine, so to speak...but I still really hope all of society doesn't collapse and all.

Every time I've been homeless and/or destitute, I've been able to live off the leavings of others. If everything falls apart completely (DEFINITELY not saying that would be the consequence of not bailing out Wall Street immediately, no holds barred, do it now or die, btw...just the consequence of not doing something to fix things, as I do think we're at a crisis point and need to take steps to keep things from collapsing), we won't be able to dumpster dive or even shoplift, since there won't be any extra food/goods to be thrown out or stolen.

Maybe it's the city living that's got me to this point, since there's no way I could "live off the land" without pillaging my way through a lot of bystanders before I got there, but I'm only with you like 50% at best on this....

[stillcool]

12. It seems like we've been waiting for this..

for a long time. Now that it appears to be here, it isn't anything like what I expected. Not with a bang, but a whimper.

[Avalux]

13. You know what will probably happen?

We'll fork over 700 billion and everything will fall apart anyway. Buscho and their buddies pocket the money. Done.

[Virginia Dare]

15. It's looking that way, unless somebody in Washington...

unexpectedly comes out with a brand new pair of large cojones. Wall Street is a pretty formidable opponent.

[Greyhound]

22. You got it. n/t

WAKE UP AMERICA!

[stillcool]

23. the only logical thing..

I can think of. Crash and burn on the way out.

[Virginia Dare]

14. I know what you mean..

I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing for our society if people thave to stop living such materialistic lives.

[renate]

21. agreed... but there's materialism, and then there's feeding our families

And besides, I'm going to out myself as a person who enjoys small creature comforts like curling up in front of a cable movie with a warm blanket and a glass of wine. In a house. Having eaten. All of which cost money.

I don't ask for much; I only shop at discount stores, and I stick to a budget. But I'm not interested in subsistence living. So I kind of disagree with the OP--sure, we'd survive, but I can't talk tough about bringing it on.

I'm reassured--maybe out of ignorance--that Congress is not giving Paulson the blank check he asked for. Maybe that's a sign that this whole mess will be dealt with responsibly, albeit painfully, and we'll avoid the kind of doomsday apocalyptic scenario that has been painted.

[Tallison]

27. Yes, and to that end, intervention is necessary

The question is: In what way do we disperse it that will maximize the interests of the majority of Americans.

[roody]

41. Responsibly? When is the last time the Congress,

president, and financial sector did something good for you? They are not going to start now. It is all about them and their comfort---nothing like your simple pleasures.

[lynettebro440]

24. I agree

they have taken everything, lets see how they do with being poor for awhile.

[LeftishBrit]

49. It's a bad thing if everyone becomes poor and the poor get even poorer

It's a bad thing if there is mass unemployment and hunger; social services collapse; and even begging becomes difficult because too few people have any money to give beggars. It's a bad thing if the elderly and those with health problems die because they cannot survive the severe physical hardships, let alone afford medical care. It's a bad thing if it spreads worldwide. It's a bad thing if it leads to desperate people electing extremist dictatorial leaders who promise to 'save them'. (That's how Hitler and other fascist leaders got into power.)

I'm not saying that this particular bailout is necessarily the best way to go; and I have NO doubt that much more regulation in business and banking is necessary, and that it needs to be made much less possible for some at the top to make huge profits at the expense of everyone else. However, the idea of just letting the economy collapse (and total collapse of American economy = collapse of economy in much of the world), so that the corrupt rich will be brought down along with everyone else, is scarily self-destructive. The corrupt rich would probably suffer the LEAST.

ETA: I am NOT afraid in the sense of thinking that if the bankers don't get exactly what they want, we are instantly doomed to another Great Depression. I don't think 'the end is nigh'. However, there are posts which imply that it would be OK if everything *did* collapse, because it would bring down a corrupt system. And I strongly disagree with that.

[Greyhound]

19. This phrase, "I am not afraid" makes you the rare exception here.

When/if you can break through the excuses and justifications and wishful thinking, this is what it boils down to. They are afraid of losing what they are losing and are willing to do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to keep it, including committing their children to indentured servitude.

I can certainly understand this, but understanding does not justify the terrible consequences of surrendering to fear.

[EFerrari]

20. I'm with you. They're going to have to think again if they want to scare me.

:)

[bdamomma]

40. remember what Naomi Klein said

they try to knock us off our feet, but the sooner we collect ourselves mentally we can come back.

hmmm...this financial shock and awe, are we ready for the next thing?

[EFerrari]

46. It's harder for people with young children and for older folks.

If we stick together and help each other, we'll be fine.

[BraneMatter]

29. My car has been...

out of gas and parked for over a week now.

I have been broke since the 3rd of the month when I got my Social Security check and paid my bills.

And now I am down to rice and noodles for the rest of the month. Ran out of milk and meat a few days ago.

If it were not for my former boss giving me a run down shack to live in, I would be on the street right now as I can't afford rent, food, and utilities on my check.

My ATM card don't work anyways, cause I've got no money in my account.

My daughter lives with me, and is out of work, and sick. No doctor will see her for free. She's just screwed. I can't afford to keep her and help her, but I damned sure ain't gonna throw her out.

I've got no stocks, 401K, or money market funds to worry about.

My wife died at age 43 of a heart attack that was preventable, but she had no access to health care because my job only paid for mine, and it was too expensive to add the rest of the family.

I worked for over forty years, and was damned good at my job, but, hell, I guess you could say I've got nothing left to fucking loose now that I'm old, disabled, and broke.

Let Wall Street burn, for all I give a shit.

I did contract work for the State Department (communications technician), and so I have traveled around a bit, and I can tell you there are several places I would rather be than here. And if I was not old, disabled, and broke now, I'd be outta here faster than your head could swim! I just don't see anything good coming for the U.S.

[Tallison]

35. Where the heck are you posting from, then?

Just wondering...

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[The Leveller]

32. Well said

The American economy may crash but we who have already known destitution know that the crash happened long ago and is built in to what the fat cats call an economy.

[Dukkha]

37. I keep thinking of a like in the Matrix Reloaded

Neo: You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
The Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.

There's a lot I can endure and will gladly endure to make the those greedy pigs pay for allowing all this to happen. They are banking, pun intended, on the notion that we'll just bail them out because we fear the possible consequences.

[Canuckistanian]

38. True. People live with the "unthinkable" every day

Even people who lived in those grand Manhattan apartments.

The WHOLE SYSTEM has been sliding downhill for YEARS.

Now that the ones at the top have have a taste of that failure, they're panicking.

Welcome to our world, assholes. Don't expect any sympathy.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

44. In the words of Ma Joad from the end of the film The Grapes Of Wrath

"...I ain't never gonna be scared no more. I was though. For a while it looked like we was beat. Good and beat. Looked like we didn't have nobody in the world but enemies. Like nobody was friendly no more. Made me feel kinda bad and scared too, like we was lost and nobody cared.... Rich fellas come up and they die, and their kids ain't no good and they die out too, but we keep on coming. We're the people that live. They can't wipe us out, they can't lick us. We'll go on forever Pa, cause we're the people. ..."

[Rocknrule]

47. I thought by "unthinkable" you meant another stolen election

[cliffordu]

48. Me too. Ain't skeered.