Grover finally fell getting out of the bathtub.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Recent monetary upheavals and stock market plunges have completely repudiated Grover Norquist and all the other assorted neo-cons and their self-serving smash and grab economic policies that gave us Enron as well as this week's events not to mention deficits, declining dollars, job losses, trade imbalances, bank failures and real estate implosion.

Maybe we will FINALLY be spared hearing endless drivel about de-regulation and it's many benefits.

Grover and the rest of them will have to slink off for a few decades to repackage themselves for a new generation when these lessons have faded.

[antigop]

1. He got what he wanted -- a HUGE debt that has to be paid off

and the result will be a reduction in social programs like Medicare and Social Security.

You see, we just can't pay off those trust fund bonds because, um, the country is broke.

Mission accomplished.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. I understand - the Starve the Beast metaphor.

Strangely, I still can't help but feel a little optimism. I think that there are ways we can pull ourselves out of this mess if people thought creatively and if their goal was true reform

I suggested a long long time ago that I thought the government could and should issue special use bonds, like Healthcare bonds that could go towards a universal healthcare program, or Education Bonds to help rebuild and improve public schools, or pick any topic that you like that has a large constituency. These bonds would almost be like vanity license plates, but they would allow Americans to fund things they believe in through their own savings. It would increase the savings rate, it would get stuff done, and it would help the country.

Anyway, my point is that many Americans have been driven into the stock market whether they wanted to be or not, because that is how most 401K are set up. I would make a change to the laws governing 401Ks to broaden the range of what is offered in them to include things like T-Bills and savings bonds and special bonds like I am imagining. One of the reasons the smash and grabbers were able to make off with so much is because we literally forced Americans to turn over their savings to them. A CEO can only make off with 100 mil if there's a hundred mil to make off with.

And yes, I believe that executive compensation in PUBLICLY HELD companies has to have guidelines and limits. If they don't want to be accountable to shareholders who have been effectively robbed of dividends by these bandits, then let them keep their companies private.

[antigop]

7. Absolutely agree with your assessment re: 401(k)'s and exec comp

A while back on the stock market thread, I was pushing the idea that there should be a way to move our 401(k) money out into an IRA if you choose to do so. Right now, you have to wait until you leave, retire, or get laid off to roll your 401(k) into an IRA.

That's wrong -- it's YOUR money, you should be able to get it out. Companies already have a rollover mechanism in place -- you should be able to use it and rollover your money without having to quit the company.

(Actually I read somewhere that there is nothing to prevent a company from offering a rollover option. They just have to allow it in the plan.)

Our 401(k) happens to have a Treasury fund, but that probably is not common.

[antigop]

8. RE: executive comp guidelines and limits

Part of the problem with exec comp is that Congress put a limit on deductibility of wages -- so companies moved to other forms of compensation -- stock options, deferred comp, etc.

[antigop]

10. I would also like to state that we need to move back to regular defined benefit pensions

Get rid of this 401(k) crap entirely--go back to old style pensions.

But Wall Street doesn't make as much money on pension trusts as it does on 401(k) plans.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

11. The only thing about that is that so few people stay in place for years like they used to

At one time, you worked for a company and that was pretty much it. Now people move around the country to chase opportunity much more easily. Also, it was pretty terrible if a company closed or fired or laid someone off right before their pension was vested. I recall reading lots of stuff about that in the old days. I think 401Ks are ok, but I think that they should have better choices and more control by the employee and I think the match should vest the day it is made. Speaking of, there are many companies that do not match at all. So I think an employer match of some kind should be mandated. I also think that if the match is in company stock, as many are, that at some point you should be allowed to move it into something else if that is your desire. I have a 401K right now where the company stock is literally walled off from the rest of it and I cannot move it into anything else.

[antigop]

13. You can have portable defined benefit pensions TODAY

I know of one company that offers one. Once you are vested, you can get an annuity FOR LIFE after you leave or get laid off.

Perfectly legal.

<edit to add> Ask any actuary and he/she will tell you that the most efficient way of providing retirement benefits is through a defined benefit pension plan.

Another option is to have a REAL defined benefit plan for Social Security -- one that actuarially funded with a trust fund. Get employers out of the picture, except for contributions to the plan.

[fascisthunter]

2. if only they'd "drown" themselves

[Larkspur]

3. Grover and the Rethugs are rabid dogs

They'll keep chanting "government is bad" and "deregulation is good" to the day they die. It's up to Democrats to point out their pathology and offer Americans an more sound way where government is there to help Americans suffering tragedy, whether it be economic crisis or a natural disaster.

[rateyes]

4. Problem is, he'll slink off with a couple of billion dollars of our money.

He should be locked up.

[antigop]

5. Government bailout tally tops $900 billion

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN16126320080917

The U.S. Federal Reserve stepped in to rescue insurance giant American International Group from bankruptcy with an $85 billion loan on Tuesday, the latest in a series of bailouts and loans for the financial and housing sectors.

The action brings the total tab for government rescues and special loan facilities this year to more than $900 billion.

RIP Medicare and Social Security. We're broke.

Norquist and friends are doing a happy dance.

[SoCalDem]

9. Grover..your bath is ready :)

[trusty elf]

14. LOL !

:thumbsup:

[Hubert Flottz]

12. Grover and his ilk belong in another bathroom fixture.

Hint...Larry Craig's love nest!

[GreenTea]

15. Norquist is very happy, he's getting exactly what he wanted. Complete destruction of

our social programs, the republicans have raided our treasury and everything else that wasn't nailed down with their cries for deregulation for decades.....Norquist & the republicans have gotten filthy rich bankrupting our economy and now for the next planned phase....No money left, social programs will need to be cut, privatized, gutted, some even eliminated.....The republicans planned wars for profit (with more on the way) will continue to drown our country even further in debt with each passing day....Killing off the "beast" - social programs - at the very least, gutting them so badly it'll be devastating....no universal health care those billions go to Iraq every month and will continue....

Norquist is getting exactly what he wanted.....Watch for phase two, it hasn't even begun yet, not until Bush is out of office and the next prez is stuck with debt and cooked republican books we don't even have a faint clue how bad it really is, far worst than Bushco is letting on now. The next prez must raise taxes, get out of the republican wars....The republicans will simply point their fingers at them as those same old tax & spend democrats, they are the countries problem, those regulating democrats, who are weak and won't fight the terrorist abroad!

Just remember what short memories the ignorant & gullible American sheep have.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

16. What makes you think the lessons will be learned THIS time?

They never have been yet...

:shrug:

[LaPera]

17. Grover Norquist and the republicans just keep rolling on, money and greed always wins out.

Until we stop it, too late, they already stole everything, then, republican corruption and exploitation will just be somewhere else. We'll never get rid of the republicans and their corporate fascist ideology, very profitable, too much money to be extorted and stolen. The risk is worth it for the republicans they have no heart or soul, money is their god.