An interesting way of looking at the right wing that I haven't heard before..

[Fumesucker]

This is from the poster "Rod Random" on Glenn Greenwald's blog on Salon.com

Glenn Greenwald may be overlooking one obvious possibility: that many "ordinary" people buy Republican propaganda not because they believe it to be true but precisely BECAUSE they know on some level that it's a pack of lies.

Such people are thrilled to be part of the sheer, jack-booted power that can cram a pack of lies down the throats of the "liberals" and make it stick. That's what they're cheering for. It makes them feel like players, rather than like pathetic suckers and helpless pawns--which of course is precisely what they are to their Republican masters.

Exposing the truth is necessary, but by itself it won't prevent the triumph of the lie. This is the really scary thing.

How does one deal with that?

[no_hypocrisy]

1. There is the fallacy that helpless, weak people like

to hang around bullies, those with power, or "winners". Sometimes it's to protect themselves from being targeted as future victims. Sometimes it's vicarious living where they too can be winners through rooting for the "right" team.

[nxylas]

3. Did you mean "fallacious"?

The phenomenon you describe is an observable fact, and you seem to indicate as such in the rest of your post, which makes me wonder whether you meant to say something else.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. Thanks. You caught it. I fixed it.

[mopinko]

7. observed by those that wondered after the nazis why

it happened. authoritarian followers. the nazi comparison, in the case of many republicans, is perfectly apt.

[bbgrunt]

17. ....and abetted by the inexcuseable refusal by

the Democratic leadership to hold anyone accountable. Impeachment being "off the table" just feeds into this tendency. We can't win by being reasonable and "nice" because it just makes you appear to be a big L loser.

[billyoc]

2. Bribery. Teaching people that they'll make more money under a Democratic administration.

Fuck all this "better angels" bullshit.

[treestar]

5. That could be true

I know a couple of people that would fit.

They latch onto any silly argument they can to the point where you realize, all they want is for McWar to win, as if they once declared themselves Republicans and must be right and nothing else matters.

Middle class people may not be all that affected by who is President - not in any big way. So having picked a team, they cheer it on as if it were nothing but a professional sports team.

[calmblueocean]

6. My answer

The big difference in my experience between liberals and conservatives is that liberals are people who recognize their own vulnerability, while conservatives consider themselves invulnerable. Liberals know that you can have a great job with what seems to be great healthcare one day, and the next day, you're sick and no one will hire you. That kind of shared recognition that what happens to someone else can happen to me is something conservatives don't have yet.

So, for me, the key is finding some aspect of a conservative's life where they are vulnerable and making them aware of it. Maybe their job could be shipped overseas any day now. Maybe their whole industry. Maybe their grandkids aren't covered by health insurance. Who knows? You have to ask about their lives to find out.

Sometimes, it's hard to get through to them, but if you can, that's the first step to turning a conservative into a liberal. Or at least someone who will vote for Democrat. :)

[Fumesucker]

10. Good point..

I've noticed that many conservatives have little empathy for others, until they get in a jam themselves at which point they will have empathy for others in the same jam but still lack empathy for others in a jam that they have not yet experienced themselves.

It's a form of hubris and exceptionalism, both of which are pandemic in America today.

[Forrest Greene]

16. Lack Of Empathy

...is the defining characteristic of the psychopath.

[Fumesucker]

22. True.. But many Reps do not entirely lack empathy..

As I pointed out, they have to have the same experience themselves, then they get it.

A real psychopath would not have empathy at all.

[RufusTFirefly]

15. I agree with many -- but not all -- of your excellent observations

I do think that spotlighting a vulnerability in a conservative's life and making him/her aware of it can help.

I have an ultra-conservative friend who was complaining about how overworked, under-appreciated, and vulnerable in his job. I asked seemingly innocently, "Have you talked to your union rep about this?"

Of course, he has no union rep because he's not part of a union. Nobody out there is sticking up for him. The corporation he works for holds all the cards. For a brief, shining moment I detected a flicker of understanding on his part.

On the other hand, I don't think it's always correct to say that conservatives don't recognize their own vulnerabilities. Many do. In fact, many conservatives and liberals share at least one thing in common: they recognize a lot of the same problems. Where they differ is in attributing the cause of those problems. For conservatives, the causes are often Big Government, the Liberal Media, and what I'd call "the Other," which can include immigrants, homeless people, people on welfare, people of different races or cultures, and people from other countries. For many liberals, it's corporations, greedy, selfish people in general, and people who show contempt or obliviousness to the plights of others who they falsely assume are not like them.

Another way to approach the conservative/liberal divide, as George Lakoff suggests, is to "reframe" things. When my ultra-conservative friend was complaining about "illegal employees," I suggested that the problem was with "illegal employers." Once again, that got him thinking -- although not for long.

[bbgrunt]

18. I think what makes them so adamant IS their sense

of vulnerability. Remember Michael Moore's question in "Bowling for Columbine" about what makes Amerikans so violent in comparison to Canadians, for example? Guilt and Insecurity.

[Frustratedlady]

8. They want the money. If you mention raising taxes on people or businesses..

you can kiss the votes goodbye!

They need to post that form where you can plug in your AGI from last year and see what your tax would have been under Obama. It's the people making over $250K who are scaring the little people, because they don't want to have to give any money to the government for taxes or social security. Repugs hate anything to do with Social Security and the United Nations.

Leave my money alone.
Leave my business alone.
Get rid of Roe v. Wade
War is OK as long as my kid doesn't have to participate

[Liberal Dose]

9. They participate in spreading the lies because they don't care about this country. The only thing

they're passionate about is wiping out liberals.

[Jade Fox]

11. It's because the Republicans constantly play the Patriotism card.......

A lot of "ordinary" people don't feel special or good about themselves in any way. Punitive Christianity furthers this notion, reminding them constantly of their sinful nature. Patriotism tells these people they are special just by being Americans, and better than those who are not.

As part of this, "ordinary Americans" probably do want to identify with those they view as winners.

[Jakes Progress]

12. Mostly these people just don't think that

it makes any difference who is in office. They vote for the club they want to be a part of. They don't believe that their lives or the world will be any different whether Obama or mccain is elected. So they vote for the people they identify with.

I can't say that the Democrats have been doing a very good job of showing how things would be different.

[SmokingJacket]

13. This applies to my father, I think.

A former Democrat who got Limbaugh-tomized.

He thinks it's *great fun* to advocate extreme, illogical positions and "watch liberals squirm."

It's because, according to my theory, he feels insecure about his own intelligence. Limbaugh gives him these ready-made, absurdist statements to counter any kind of rational liberal idea.

[hfojvt]

14. not very interesting

Just another way of saying "wow, they suck" even though the type he is describing is probably not more than 5% of ordinary Republicans.

[Fumesucker]

19. So you have heard the idea before?

Personally I find it explains some things which I have found perplexing in the past.

From time to time I go on right wing sites that do not delete posts from the opposition. Rarely does it take me more than half a dozen posts or so to get to the point that no one will reply at all.

Most conservatives are essentially cowardly bullies, face them down and they will shut up and slink away.

[hfojvt]

23. apparently they know how to shun

I have seen the opposite here and on the kicking a$$ blog and experienced it directly. People who disagree are quickly called fascists or bigots and their tombstoning is demanded. If they would shut up and slink away, then why would we need to tombstone them? (and maybe many do slink away. There are many profiles which are no longer active. The tombstoned ones are more noticeable.) Many here also advocate a policy of "don't feed the trolls".

So I don't think your experience on a couple of internet sites proves anything about MOST conservatives. The only thing you seem to be trying to explain is your own contempt for conservatives. I usually don't think that broad-brush contempt is a good idea.

[Fumesucker]

24. Oh, if you just mindlessly attack they'll respond in spades...

Call names, be a jerk, they like that and will reply endlessly with more invective.

If you are cool and calm, avoid personal insults and stick to the facts it doesn't take long for them to ignore you.

Even on the right wing talk shows on the radio every so often a liberal caller with some intelligence and gumption will manage to sneak by the call screeners and lambaste the conservative position. I've heard it happen to Limbaugh at least twice and I happen to know who one of the callers was, another radio personality that works in my town and is very liberal. You have to know how the system works and what to tell the screeners so that they will put you on the air with the host. Liberals who sound intelligent are almost never let on the air, they screen for the emotional people who will just rant so that the host can make fun of them and point out how all liberals are like that.

[hfojvt]

28. I don't think I said anything about mindlessly attacking

and I have no experience with conservative boards. But the one on the kicking a$$ blog clearly out-argued several liberals on tax policy (and he was quite a jerk about it too). I happen to know a thing or two about tax policy, if I do say so myself, and I think I answered him pretty thoroughly, but he was clearly never gonna shut up.

[Fumesucker]

30. If you don't have any experience on conservative boards why do you question mine?

I've been there and it really isn't that hard to shut them up.

But you have to be better than they are, return love for hate and good for evil, remain calm and avoid personal attacks.

Stick to the facts and a large number of conservatives simply don't have any ammunition, they've been programmed by the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity with certain talking points and once you get them off the talking points it's not that hard to defeat them.

Of course, most conservative boards these days just ban you as soon as you start making good points against them. They let the "angry liberals" rant and get rid of anyone who doesn't do that.

[hfojvt]

31. because I know how they behave here and on other liberal blogs

They won't shut up and give up in our house, why would they do so in their own? And like you say, any experiment I wanted to try would probably just get me banned.

[GeorgeGist]

20. As Obama almost said ...

they cling to the ignorance of others in order to justify their own.

[supernova]

21. Bullies and Bully-wannabes

That's all the GOP is.

[mitchum]

25. The republican party appeals to their lizard brain

[AngryAmish]

26. Our brains don't work that way

People make choices all the time. Repub v. Democratic. Cheer v. All. Old Style v. Bud.

Why do we make these choices? Most people can tell you, but most of it is after the fact rationalization.

So how does one win elections? Make the other side seem as ugly as possible. Once people make up their minds they rarely switch. So concentrate on the people who have not made their minds up yet.

[moodforaday]

27. There is a mamorable scene in

"Cube", after the situation goes from horrible to worse and a crooked ex-cop tries to assert power over the remaining cast. They can't keep track of time since nobody has a watch, so the ex-cop says "An hour is as long as I say it is".

This is precisely the phenomenon the OP describes. It's the parent ordering a child, or a commander ordering a soldier, who when challenged responds "Because I say so". There is no debate there. Truth or reason play no part. It's the sheer raw power to control another person. It's what drives rapists and muggers, I would guess, and it's what drives so many politicians. In the end, it's borderline psychopatic behavior.

[guitar man]

29. yep

this must be their theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DayCrQWJXuI

[Duppers]

32. I knew a rethug atty who thought like this

He knew they lied and he considered it part of the game. All he wanted was to win.

Asshole, he was.