Folks, this is IT

[Taverner]

This is that great holy war that you may want

This is the great war of ideas that your parents or grandparents told you about

This is the war for Democracy

Whether the US goes the way of the Roman Empire or the Republic

If Obama doesn't win, I'm sorry, but America is dead. There is no 'America' anymore - just a dictatorship run by reactionists and religious fuck ups.

After November, if Obama isn't president, I will start seeking shelter elsewhere

England, Mexico, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. Anyone have a spare couch for a rational family?

This is IT

Make no mistake

[monmouth]

1. Costa Rica for me, ...n/t

[firedupdem]

6. Unfortunately I'm screwed...................

my job went to India...my home is gone....trying to start over but feeling depressed with just the chance of another Bush in office. This is serious serious business and I hope that America does what Kucinich advised and WAKE UP!

[Stern21]

59. I've been looking at Costa Rica as well.

[Taverner]

60. Problem with CR is the humidity

It's like living in a Humidor!

[monmouth]

70. Well I'm already in Florida so it shouldn't be too hard to acclimate...n/t

[Taverner]

72. THIS is true ...

[Stern21]

88. I live in the SE where it is often 98% humidity.

As long as I have electricity and AC, I can make it! :)

[villager]

2. Yup:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3927167&mesg_id=3927167

[Disturbed]

8. I agree.

:yoiks:

[MadrasT]

3. 5th rec... and I'm thinking New Zealand, myself.

[Taverner]

65. NZ is interesting...

How easy is it to emmigrate there?

[wvbygod]

4. What is rational about leaving America just because another repub gets in?

There's a word for leaving the USA when the future is unknown and it is not rational.

[tkmorris]

11. There is a point past which the nation cannot be saved

It would seem the OP believes that if McCain is elected we will have reached that point. If you disagree, that's fine, but let's keep the discussion productive shall we?

[Taverner]

13. Yes - or can't be saved for a while

Adam Smith pointed out that one of the biggest problems with monopolies is that those who run them rarely want to give them up.

Bushco will do anything to win this. Big Oil will do anything to win this. The Military Industrial Complex will do anything to win this.

We do have one thing in our favor, however - American Based Businesses.

John Thompson, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates - all of the tech CEO's are all on our side - and that's one of the few businesses that's still making some money.

So we will see...

[cliffordu]

22. Don't be too sure about the captains of industry. Money talks.

And the vast majority of sheeple in THIS country are too lazy and ignorant to take back the republic, which might be what it would take.

[Taverner]

24. Why I will go North if this happens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2vZUAfL-gI

See this movie if you can

[Taverner]

31. And keep in mind businesses like to make money

They hate to lose it

Under McCrazy they lose money

[Ikonoklast]

39. Austria 1937

Jews thought they were safe then, too.

[Taverner]

42. Exactly

You see how things snowball so quickly it becomes too late too quick

This is fascist rule. This is proof they have the whole system rigged, and that 2006 was just a fluke. They didn't 'adjust' the machines enough.

[leftchick]

90. too late too quick?

I felt it was too late in 2004. The final election fraud nail was in and you can't fight that if no politician is on your side.

We are fucked! That is why I want to send my boys to school out of the country. I see no hope for them otherwise.

:(

[Truth2Tell]

46. Please tell us your word. Don't worry, we won't think any less of you. nt

[TheWatcher]

68. Well, at least some of us won't.

But I'd still like to hear it.

[Truth2Tell]

89. I can't.

:P

[mmonk]

5. Belize or Canada

[rucky]

7. Just like at work: blame IT for everything that goes wrong.

sorry. been a long (short) week.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

14. With that avatar I figure you'd say that

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

27. This is all I gotta say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2vZUAfL-gI

[Fluffdaddy]

33. Not even going there.

[Taverner]

36. This is where we are headed if McCrazy wins

Seriously

Watch that movie

In it - all of the American Intellectuals of the time leave (like Walt Whitman, Mark Twain and Emerson)

[Elidor]

97. Apparently, you can't say much without getting deleted

Pretty weak arguments, Fluffer.

[Oregone]

30. Im ashamed that you have zero understanding

I give two fucks about people who died for the regime occupying the region I was born in (to be honest, and you know, I didn't know them). This is here and now. I have a family, and I want the best for them that I can provide. I want the best life in those short years that I can attain.

I don't give precedence to legends and dead men, nor to binding concepts of "honor" and "patriotism". So long, and thanks for all the fish (and Pell Grants).

[Fluffdaddy]

37. Bye. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Don't come back

[Oregone]

40. Im already gone...and judging by your tone, a good deal happier!

Hence, why would I come back?

But I understand how one can live in a shit hole, fight a losing fight, and still "enjoy" doing it. They don't have the guilt from not doing so, and they must value that experience of trying.

I have a family Im not willing to sign up for that. I give two shits about "struggling" and much more about living, experiencing, and enjoying life.

Whatever floats your boat. But it all boils down to the pleasure principle., you are no better than us. What you are doing fulfills you in the same way my choices fulfill me. We are all seeking that happiness and fulfillment, but have other ways to be there. You value the fight, your country and concepts like that. I value my family, upwards mobility, and the comfort of living in a safe and secure environment. We both have chosen what we think will make us happier or in less pain in the future. So don't hide behind your lofty ideas and throw feces at mine.

[Taverner]

41. Don't pay attention to him

Note his avatar

[depakid]

44. Americans and ther zero tolerace

That's as compelling a reason as ANY for people to move abroad....

[GoneOffShore]

57. How nice for you - how progressive - how really American!

:sarcasm:

Being American is merely an accident of birth and if you think about it, not any more special than being born anywhere else.


I'm ashamed for you that you have no respect for other's choices and no knowledge of when it's time to cut your losses.


If the fight is lost, you pick up and get out. And that's what's going on with this country right now.

[Oregone]

17. Lame....

With all the effort and energy you put in fighting the ol good fight, without reward, to fulfill an intrinsic desire to fight, Ive put forth a fraction of that effort and wiped my hands clean. I have Universal Health Coverage in a country with the highest rate of intergenerational mobility in the industrialized world (for my child), much lower rates of crime, and a world of difference in terms of government corruption. Does it bother me to turn my back on this country that needs me? Not at all...Ive always considered myself first and foremost to be human, not American. And as a human, I have satisfied my desire to seek safety, comfort, and opportunity for my family.

Build your time machine and tell those fleeing Europe that they are just pussys for fleeing their oppression and seeking opportunity elsewhere. Is your American Dream about success, or is it more about a dog endlessly chasing its tail in the face of failure at every corner?

Well my decision has been made. You say you don't need me? Thats fine. Because I already decided I don't need you, your society, your country, and those American ways. Ive decided that and left you behind in your cesspool of corruption and ignorance. I feel nothing but happy and empowered. My life is short, and I intend to live it and enjoy it elsewhere, no matter who condemns me for it. So, all I ask, stay the fuck there, and don't plague the rest of the world with your close-mindedness.

[greyl]

28. Personally, I identify with being a human - a member of the community of life on Earth - before

being an "American".

However, come November, I'm going to be a damn proud American. ;)

[TahitiNut]

43. Uh-uh. Which side will you be on? Doing what, exactly?

:eyes:

[TheWatcher]

69. Typical DLC Attitude.

Believe me, the feeling is mutual.

[searchingforlight]

10. I would have done it when the war started but my family is here.

We are the older generation. The young ones have jobs here, go to school here. We live on the same piece of land and everyone comes here - home. I cannot find that anywhere else. We will just have to go for the family enclave and start exercising our right to bear arms. :-)

[melody]

12. Better to be in chains with friends than in a garden with strangers

... as the old saying goes. No, I won't abandon America. I can't. It's the only ethnic identity I have.
Besides I won't let the monsters take over what my family fought so long and so hard to preserve.

[Oregone]

20. I gotta disagree....some gardens are quite easy to make friends within.

Then you have the best of both worlds.

And sometimes being in chains isn't the best circumstances for making friends. :)

[melody]

38. The point of the saying is that it is best to be among your people even in bad times

But also, your mileage may vary

[Oregone]

47. And my point is that is not really true...

Would you rather be among friends in a German Ghetto in WWII, or among strangers in the USA (especially with knowledge now of what happened)?

Yes that is extreme.

But, if there exists an extreme, then that means there is a threshold of "bad", different for every person, that would cause them to rather go to a new place and seek new friends. Some thresholds are lower if people have more concerns about their children's health and future, or their own medical concerns. Some are higher if they are older, with deep rooted family and friend ties to an area. But to admit that its a gray area depending upon the person, their circumstances, and the conditions of the area, that sort of tells you that suffering through plight amongst friends isn't always the best choice at all.

We all know many older people move to small towns and retire in coastal communities or retirement communities that they've never spent much time in. Now, thats a personal choice people make in the best of times, with the least concerns. Now imagine a young family with a lot of concerns, facing a mounting shadow of despair that has become America?

[melody]

92. It's not true for you but it is true for me

I'm American, live or die. It means too much to me to abandon it. If it doesn't to you, that's your right and
your decision.

[SmokingJacket]

66. Not if your people are a bunch of idiots who voted for McCain.

That said, I'm not leaving either. I happen to like this country quite a lot. When I've lived overseas I came to see how American I actually am: American sense of humor, American tastes, American habits. (NOT the cliche: I hate fast food and TV. But this place is my home.)

But I can completely see not feeling connected enough anymore and wanting to get out. I think maybe if I were younger, and not married, I might give it a try...

[melody]

91. All our people are not idiots -- half of them are ignorant due to the attacks on education by the RW

You're insulting all the Americans on this board because of the Republicans.

I can sympathize with wanting to get out, I was merely expressing my perspective. I'm not insisting it be yours.
I frankly don't care if anyone goes or stays. That's your business.

[Taverner]

21. I feel at home in Vancouver (I don't live there...yet)

In fact, I have realized I only really feel at 'home' in Pacific Coast Cities, whether Portland, OR, Seattle, WA, San Francisco, CA or Los Angeles, CA - and of course the Canadian cities are no different. I feel perfectlyh at home in Vancouver and Victoria.

Being rational is legal there. Einstein knew when to leave. So should we.

See CSA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2vZUAfL-gI

This is their dream

[Oregone]

26. So you moved from the states? (I just landed in Victoria!)

I completely feel at home here

[Taverner]

29. No I live in the Bay Area

I feel at home there too - for now

The scenario is too scary to stick around if McCain wins

Seriously

This is a racist woman who would love to see this the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2vZUAfL-gI

[melody]

35. I live in CA and I'm retiring to WA

I still feel part of the USA. Our real political history (not the ones the fundies feed us) is too important to abandon to me.
Your mileage may vary.

[misanthrope]

45. "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" huh?...

...Sorry, but I feel it's just the opposite.

[melody]

95. No, not at all. I'm a middle class liberal, I'm not "reigning" anywhere

I wouldn't want to reign anywhere either. This isn't about power for me. It's about people and culture and
my connection to the land. My family has been here 350 years. This is my culture. I have no other.

[azmouse]

48. I'll still be here in America fighting right beside you.

There is no where I'd rather be than this country. This is my home.

[melody]

93. Well said, exactly n/t

[Wednesdays]

15. I so wish I could leave, but I'm broke

I simply don't have the means to pull up stakes and haul the family anywhere, except maybe to another state. Maybe I'd feel better in a "bluer" state.

[underseasurveyor]

16. I thought the same thing

and it's still a very real consideration.

I've lived at the beach, in the desert, in the mountains and on the prairie. So it would seem the next logical move for me.. A tropical island where I can scuba dive to my hearts content:-)

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

18. Germany for me

I have family there and besides, my German is much better than my Spanish. And the food?...Hands down Germany.

[cliffordu]

19. Bicycle move to Belize for me...Maybe beginning in a couple of weeks.

I'll be headed down 101 all the way to San Diego....By the time I get there, it'll be election day and I can decide.

[Oregone]

23. Congrats! Sounds awesome.

Where you starting from?

[cliffordu]

25. Port Townsend, Wa.

[Oregone]

32. Damn, thats a hell of a trip. You'll pass right by my house in the states.

Should of headed north! :)

Good luck!

[cliffordu]

53. Probably - but I want to stay in the warm weather. This could be a cold assed

winter in every way imaginable....

I can live in the bush if I have to.

I really thought this country would last for another thousand years.....Now, not so much.

[understandinglife]

34. In_Deed it is.

[Ghost Dog]

49. What languages do you speak? What other cultures do you understand?

Don't expect to be able to live in other peoples' vital space without changing your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2I5UYkcPAY

[Taverner]

50. I did Peace Corps in Thailand for 3 years

I know what is involved with a massive culture change

To be honest, if things got that bad I'd move to Thailand in a minute. I know where you can get a job teaching English in 1 hour, if you so desire. That's enough to feed a family - if your wife does the same.

I also speak Spanish - that is why Mexico is on the table. Mexico is the best place in Spanish-speaking America. Most vibrant economy, highest demand for tech (outside of Brazil - which isn't Spanish speaking, so it doesn't count), and largest Middle Class.

Of course Canada takes preference. I score high on their point system.

[Ghost Dog]

52. Way to go, Taverner.

Me I'm a Brit, learned all about Ireland (or at least, the West) in the early 'seventies (First country to get out of the Empire).

Later, living in London was only made tolerable thanks to Irish friends, who saved my life.

Spent time in France, finally settled in Barcelona and the North-African Atlantic Canary Islands, Spain ("my wife" is from Barcelona - 26 years now we're still not married :evilgrin: ).

The Spanish language and culture has been for me a breath, no, a vendeval (a storm wind) of freedom. I arrived here not long after the end of the Franco regime, with the counterculture in full swing. And connects to much extremely interesting history and to many parts of the world, (not only the Americas).

As one of the earliest modern European "powers" to get over loss of empire, in many ways this culture is way ahead of us.

And, sure, speaking "international inglish" can make one, also, very privileged.

Please enjoy the version of "The Partisan" in the youtube above. :hi:

[Taverner]

77. I wish I could see "The Partisan"

but unfortunately it is not there...

Spain has always intrigued me - especially post-Franco

[Ghost Dog]

87. ¿ I click on the link and it's there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2I5UYkcPAY

First time I crossed the overland Pyrennean frontier at night, Mediterranean side, 1984, ironically, the inverse of in Franco's day, driving a vanload of domestic furniture and boxes and boxes of books from London, the Civil Frontier Guard asked: "qué llevas" (what are you carrying). I answered (tired), "Pues, muebles, y, ... libros". He said (tiredly), "Vale. Pasa" (Ok, Pass).

And every time since then, the same vibe.

[a la izquierda]

71. I live in Mexico now.

My husband and I have no kids, just dogs. I don't know if he would move here permanently, but I've been mulling the idea over in my head. I study here and with relative ease he and I could get jobs. We could actually AFFORD a house too, which is a plus. I love it here and would love it more if he were with me at the moment. If push came to shove, there is no place I'd rather be than Mexico.

[Taverner]

74. How is it for a tech specialist in storage and someone with a degreee in Ed Psych?

[katty]

51. couldn't agree more- THIS IS IT - Last Chance Highway

[Bucky]

54. I'm moving to Paraguay. My family's got property there, you know, just in case

:eyes:

[Taverner]

56. Indeed that's where GWB is going

[onethatcares]

55. amen, I'm thinking the same thing,

sell the house, go overseas, burn the credit card for fuel. I don't think I can take living on the edge anymore at my age, and if the next four are even close to the last eight, I'm outa here.

[Indenturedebtor]

58. Yep it's now or never. Unfortunately the world will also go to shit

Or rather it will get worse from the damage the pukes have done already.

[girl gone mad]

61. No one should leave the country.

Work for more Independence for liberal states and cities. Stop sending our money to the red state leeches.

[Taverner]

62. I would love to see California secede

E


O


M

[underseasurveyor]

82. Oh Please

Please please PLEASE California secede....

That would be awesome.. it won't happen (yet) but none the less it would be awesome:bounce:

[Taverner]

84. Hey, Venice seceded when no one else did...

[kurt_cagle]

63. Canada

In 2005, after the second Bush election coup, I took an opportunity that came up to move to Victoria, Canada for a job. I ordinarily wouldn't have even considered something as radical as that, but I had reached a point where I could no longer in good conscience pay taxes regularly to a government that was only going to use it to buy munitions for Iraq.

Three years later, I am still here. It was a hard choice and the transition's been rough and frustrating. It has cost me, all told, probably $20,000 to move up here, and contrary to what you may have heard with the rapid fall of the dollar the prices of things here have skyrocketed, as most were priced on the assumption that the Loonie was about 80 cents on the dollar. Culturally, the transition has also been more significant than I expected ... while Canada and the US share a lot of common history, there is also a very definite ambiguity about Americans that has only grown stronger with the Bush administration, and there are some facets of Canadian culture that I am only now beginning to really understand that are very different from their American counterparts. Finally, immigration issues are a constant worry.

Having said that, I am glad that I moved. I am still registered to vote in the US (you do not give up US citizenship when you move across the border) and there is a surprisingly strong contingent of "ex-patriots" in most Canadian cities that are still working hard in politics, almost all of whom are fervent Obama supporters.

I still haven't decided what I will do if Obama gets elected. There were (and are) financial reasons for the move as much as political ones, I have kids that are now in Canadian schools that I think overall prefer it here, and personally I find that I tend to agree with Canadian culture far more than I do with the rather toxic consumerism that favors the Republicans but that Democrats are no stranger to.

Should Palin become president (and I have no doubt that if McCain wins Palin WILL become president) I will stay put. I contribute (and have contributed extensively) to American political campaigns, but to me should the unthinkable happen, this country will tear itself apart in civil war for the very simple reason that there will be no alternative - when people have no money, no way of putting food on the table, no way of securing a job or a place to live in the legitimate economy, they will do so in the illegitimate economy. The value of the dollar will plummet, and the only way that individual regions of the country will be able to survive is to create their own alternative scrip based upon a trustworthy medium of exchange. Someone of Palin's calibre would very quickly call out the troops, and before you know it, California/Nevada, Cascadia, and New England north of Pennsylvania will find themselves battling federal troops (the irony is that Alaska may very well take the opportunity to secede at the same time, as not all Alaskans (indeed very few Alaskans, that I've seen) are as arch-conservative as Ms. Palin.)

[Taverner]

64. Interesting

Something to keep in mind

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. America survived Reagan, it survived both Bushes, and it would survive McCain.

Things would get worse, but living standards in America after another four years of Republican misgovernance would still be higher than in most of the rest of the world.

In particular, note that the Democrats are pretty much certain to control both houses after November, and not to need Lieberman etc any more, which will take at least some of the sting out of a McCain victory.

Every election looks like "not just another election" at the time.

Besides, you guys still have a not-much-less-than-50/50 chance of winning. Here it the UK, it's all but a certainty that the Tories will win the next election in a landslide.

[Taverner]

73. Fuuuuuck that is not good

Tory victory - might as well have Thatcher doing her evil things...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

75. Possibly not quite that bad, but certainly not good.

Cameron appears to be Thatcher-lite, but he'll still be a bloody awful prime minister.

[Taverner]

76. Doesn't matter - you folks have to wait around until the next election

In the meantime, they could elect two, maybe three PM's!

[northernlights]

78. back in early '03

when W was making noise about Iraq, and then did the dirty deed, I looked into Canada. I was a couple points away from qualifying.

5 years older, and much, much poorer, I'm more points away. But I'm also 1/3 of the way through training for a healthcare career with a worldwide shortage and the same starting pay wherever I look.

I'll wait and see what happens. It will depend on how much I'm able to get for my house and how much I owe by the time I get my new degree. I'd like to at the very least move to a much, much bluer state. On the other hand, according to the frigndumass polls here, Maine is strongly in Obama's camp. And I'm certainly not seeing as many McCain signs around as I once saw Bush signs. In fact, mostly for sale signs which may explain a lot.

[Taverner]

79. Are you tech at all?

Let's start a business together!

[terrya]

80. I have a Canadian boyfriend. I'm sorry to say we don't live together.

I've been trying to do so, but haven't found employment up there yet. He's been incredibly patient.

But goddammit, if McCain/Palin wins, I'll sell everything I own, move up there and work at McDonald's or something.

You're absolutely right, Tavener. After the nightmare of the past 8 years, if this country elects those two, and opts for MORE OF THE SAME, there's no hope for this country. None. I can't be optimistic anymore for this country after that. I can't.

[Taverner]

81. Do it!!!

Nothing says no like voting with our feet!

[Imagevision]

83. US. greatest country? compared to what? Sweden,Italy, England, Mexico, Canada, New Zealand, Australi

[Taverner]

85. Point made...

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

86. America will not survive McCain/Mooseberry

Grampy will never, ever, serve out the term. The Armageddonists will never again be so close to the Presidency, and they ain't gonna let old man Beermoney stand in their way.

Chimpy and Darth, evil as they are, are pragmatic survivors, like the old Soviet Politburo. They want to physically survive long enough to enjoy what they have stolen. Neither, again, as evil as they are, would torch the entire planet in a fit of religious insanity. Palin is the product of a belief system, and her "church" is closely allied with, that thinks the Rupture and the Second Dumbing of Rambo Jeebus will be hastened if nuclear war breaks out. Worldwide holocaust is, in their tiny twisted minds, the BEST THING that could ever happen.

The Loot, Exploit and Steal wing of the Repigs has something more on its hands with Rapture Caribou Barbie than they have bargained for. The advancement of the profits of the kleptocracy is not first on the agenda of the Dominionists/Armageddonists. They have exactly the same lunatic mentality that motivates Wahhabist suicide bombers. These people WANT nuclear annihilation so that they will be raptured off to wherever mental defectives of this sort believe they will be raptured off to. The thieving plutocrats will be vaporized just as quickly as everyone else. Palin would push The Button without a second thought. And the plutocrats will be crisped along with everyone else.

If the M$M drags the putrefying corpse of the Repiglican Party across the finish line, I'm selling most of what I own and moving to somewhere like S. Korea, Japan or Vietnam to teach English. So help me.

[lonestarnot]

94. You got it brother. I will stay and make a giant wave!

[screembloodymurder]

96. I agree.

And I won't stand for it.

[SunDrop23]

98. I'm right here with you. I'm already working on an exit strategy. (nt)