Ford vs Toyota

[B Calm]

I got this e-mail today and I thought what the hell, I'll share it with my friends on DU. . .


A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices, and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India

Sadly,

The End.

Here's something else to think about:

Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.



IF THIS WEREN'T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.

[BlooInBloo]

1. It's still funny.

[BlueCollar]

35. not if you're a Union worker at Ford...n/t

[Romulox]

41. It's funny if you use the "Union Yes!" avatar as a cruel joke! nt

[valerief]

2. And that's why I drive a Toyota. Thanks. nt

[DebJ]

4. Me too! 2007 Camry Hybrid! Well, okay, its hubbies, but I picked

it out and convinced him to pay the extra bucks for the hybrid version. I can't afford a new car yet....my Toyota will have to wait awhile.

[valerief]

7. I'm hoping to get a Hybrid next year. Still juggling old bills. nt

[yourout]

3. Sad but true.......American Corporations as a whole are bloated with....

overpaid management and so driven by immediate results that they end up cutting their own throats.

[B Calm]

27. Where I work, we now have four management people doing what

one management person did four years ago. At the same time they have laid off fifty percent of the hourly truck drivers who they are in charge of.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. What can I say?

Toyota knows what it takes to sell lots of cars:

High quality for the consumer

Good pay and benefits for the workers...

No mysteries there!

BTW, my husband and I have driven NOTHING but Toyotas since 1980.

We now own two hybrids; he has a Prius and I have the first hybrid Camry from 2007.

[DainBramaged]

55. I am saddened to know that.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

66. My dear DainBramaged...

I am sorry that this saddens you, truly I am. You know I respect you and your point of view.

But my husband and I have always shopped for the best value, for the most bang for the buck, esp. with cars. And Toyota gives us both.

If Detroit were doing this, then we would have bought from them. But they weren't.

So there you are.

[DebJ]

6. And this explains the 'success' of the U.S. of Corporations

[Mind_your_head]

8. And that's why I have a 1991 Honda, a 1998 Toyota....and we're all still

*smiling*/chugging along.

Hummers? HUMMMERS!!!! H2's????? Where is you manly beasts!!!!! *THUMPS HAIRY CHEST* *ooooooooooooooooooHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*

[emilyg]

9. My Ford stayed in the shop

My Toyota stays on the road. I will continue buying Toyatas.

[Lorien]

94. Yep. We grew up with Fords, then my grandparents got a Camry that

lasted 20 years with barely a repair. My mom's Fords were ALWAYS in the shop. It seemed like we were either without a car or renting some awful beater throughout most of my childhood. Now we all have Toyotas (except my sister, who owns a Honda). My Camry is 14 years old and still going strong!

[pipoman]

10. All too true

but you forgot the part about cost cutting measure...casting the oars with large holes in the paddle end to reduce material costs...also the part about the breakaway rudder to insure future parts sales...

[susanna]

11. It might be funny to me...

Except I was laid off by Ford in June after 16 years through no fault of MY own.

But have your fun...hell, you're entitled.

The same people on this forum who RANT about WalMart and China's products will undercut their own American workers (union and salaried) at the domestic auto manufacturers. Boggles the mind, it does...

Keep up! You may lose Michigan this time around. And I'm serious.

on edit: better word choice.

[B Calm]

12. NO ONE IS MAKING FUN AT UNION WORKERS!!!

It's the stupid people who are running these companies were making fun of!

[susanna]

13. What you (and many others) on this board refuse to realize...

...is that most of us little worker people (and I'm not union, by the way - I was salaried) are saying is: we TOLD the management they were screwing up. We TOLD the management they were out of touch. We TOLD the management they were deluded.

But who loses their jobs in the final scenario? The management? Nope. It's us little worker bees; we were rowing against the current.

So take your feeble "making fun of management" excuse and go pound sand. Luckily, I landed on my feet. I have a new job. But there are 9% of the population in Michigan (and I think it's a fake percent, by the way - I'm betting about 12%, myself) that would tell you Michigan is up for grabs this election cycle.

And thanks for your incredible insight to a city and culture you know nothing about. Nice talking with you. :-)

[Grinchie]

26. Don't get mad at us for your decision to work for stupid people

It's called ethics, and being ethical means that if you don't like what management is doing, you quit.

I have done it many times, and sometimes it is very difficult to balance the need of money vs a clear conscience.

Ever since I made that decision, I have never been troubled by work issues, nor have I ever lost money by quitting a job that didn't serve me or my interests. If fact, it always worked out better.

The U.S. has been trained to be specialists in one field, but don't have much training being more well rounded. Americans need Electricians, Plumbers, Auto Mechanics just to survive, but in reality, all of these things are easily accomplished with a little study. Unfortunately, big business likes this specialization racket because it keeps workers in one place, afraid to branch out and find their true niche.

I recently had to fix the Alternator on my Ford Taurus. The shop wanted 685 dollars to replace it.

I decided to do it myself, and I was astounded at how difficult Ford had made a simple repair. I had to get a special Serpentine belt tool because there was only about 1 inch of clearance between the tensioner and the body. Then I had to take the wheel off, removes the splash shield and another guard just to get to the alternator. Then I needed deep throat sockets for the stud bolt.

After that experience, I could see why nobody want these pieces of crap they make in the U.S. Anymore. Gas hungry, fuel innefficient behemoths that all use different parts most of the time.
Marketing fuel injection and then making the motor run richer in order to fuel the catalytic converter, which goes bad and then costs 1000 bucks to replace. God forbid the Platinum thieves get it first.

We know that the Big Three don't make great cars, that's all we need to know.

[susanna]

34. Ethics? So I am a moral degenerate for staying at a good job? That's a stretch.

Back in the 90s when folks couldn't get enough of the behemoth gas-guzzlers, Ford was on the cover of Time magazine and slated to overtake GM as the largest manufacturer in the world. We were rolling in the money. No one called the company stupid then, and the sheeple kept buying those trucks. Oh my, they did! Only when gas finally knocked some sense upside their heads did all this start. It's a good thing, IMHO. I never owned a SUV for trips to the grocery store. Now THAT was a moral choice I made easily.

As for your ancedotal experience, domestic cars are steadily improving and foreign companies are standing still or taking backwards steps in quality. The studies are out there. And I'm not looking them up for you.

Have a lovely Labor Day. Enjoy the time off the unions brought you.

[BlueCollar]

36. nicely put...n/t

[Ikonoklast]

53. Ford was awash with cash in the late 90's

Then They hired Jacques Nasser to run things, and he sure did. Ran Ford right into the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Nasser

This guy squandered five billion dollars that Ford had in cash reserves, buying up other failing auto brands, and managing the company like he was an Indian Rajah instead of hired help.

Ford Motor has yet to recover.

[susanna]

57. In complete agreement there. Nasser was an unmitigated disaster. n/t

[EOTE]

127. Very well said.

It's amazing how some can step back and criticize others for simply trying to get by. It's also pretty hilarious to see some self-righteous Toyota owners who can't see that their beloved make is getting surpassed in so many fields (value being number one) by the domestic competition. Nope, they're still stuck in the 80s/early 90s thinking that the Chevette is indicative of the quality of American vehicles nowadays. Then of course they'll trot out all the anecdotal information to bolster their argument. Of course refusing to look at KBB, Edmunds or Consumer Reports. Very sad.

[susanna]

133. Thank you, EOTE. I appreciate it. n/t

[BlueCollar]

42. Hmmm.............

You state....:

"Americans need Electricians, Plumbers, Auto Mechanics just to survive, but in reality, all of these things are easily accomplished with a little study."

You go on to state: "...I recently had to fix the Alternator on my Ford Taurus. The shop wanted 685 dollars to replace it.

I decided to do it myself, and I was astounded at how difficult Ford had made a simple repair. I had to get a special Serpentine belt tool because there was only about 1 inch of clearance between the tensioner and the body. Then I had to take the wheel off, removes the splash shield and another guard just to get to the alternator. Then I needed deep throat sockets for the stud bolt."


Apparently the tasks were beyond your ability to resolve or you failed to accomplish them "easily with a little study..."

Those of us in the skilled trades deserve a little respect. Perhaps you might share with us what it is that you do for a living so that we can paint with a broad brush and denigrate your profession.

Let us know when you get back from your shopping trip to Walmart...

[ogneopasno]

49. "Electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics...

...all of these things are easily accomplished with a little study."

WTF are you saying?

ETA: Are you saying we should all read our Time-Life series on home repair and then we'll all be ready to build a skyscraper? Get yourself together.

[Phx_Dem]

68. Did you replace the alternator or fix it?

Just curious. Most of the time it's the rectifier/regulator inside the alternation that requires replacement, back in the old days the rectifier/regulator was a separate unit, but the auto engineering geniuses decided to cram them inside the alternator despite the hot environment.

PS--they are just called deep sockets.

[pipoman]

19. There isn't anyone in this thread who are blaming the workers

for the failure of the big 3 to compete with the Japanese makers. The end of American auto dominance came with the wrong decisions and analysis by the big 3 big wigs back in the late 1970's and early 80's. They misread why Americans were buying the imports. They thought it was a price issue so they cheapened up the cars and increased the number of defects they engineered into them counting on future parts sales to augment their bottom line. They were wrong. Americans were buying imports because they were more reliable. By the time management changed coarse it was too late.

[susanna]

20. My point still stands.

I would find the OP funny except for the real, concrete, financial fallout for people who had no say in those decisions. You are well within your right to disagree, but I'm not in agreement. At all.

[pipoman]

21. And my point is

that many former big 3 auto workers want to blame American consumers for their job loss. I and others who buy Toyotas do so because they are more reliable. It has, for years, been the MO of the big 3 to engineer flaws into their products because parts sales are such a huge part of their bottom line. Again not the workers fault, but don't blame consumers for buying products which will not continue to cost them hard money in replacing intentionally flawed products...blame the automotive suits in you own back yard.

[susanna]

30. We'll agree to disagree then. n/t

[Festivito]

23. Glad you found new employment.

The OP email may be overstating the poor quality of management at our domestic auto companies, but it does not represent itself as a comprehensive treatise. If it hurts, it's meant to hurt, hurt the poor management.

Having worked there myself and having family working there I know they promote Right-wing junk the email parodies. Outsourcing. privatized consulting. Somebody has to awaken them.

I find your logic disturbing. You seem angry at an attack on the same management you attacked for the same reason you attacked it. Attacked it by telling them they were "screwing up." The email describes the same thing.

Then you imply that this would cause people to vote for more of this right-wing junk.

Combine this with a comment like keep up, that seems to have been meant to be keep it up, and I wonder if you are still just too angry.

If Republicans take Michigan, it will be racism or stealing or both, but not this.

I wish you well.

[susanna]

52. Thanks for the well wishes.

As for the rest, I am angry at many, many things, which likely do run together in my post. I'll elaborate as clearly as I can here:

1) Ford management sucks swampwater, but the "little people" don't. Evidently this is one confusion for you as regards my post. I support the workers, not the fat cats. That said, these good workers have no jobs if the company goes under. Is my opinion - and it's that, just an opinion - more understandable to you now?

2) I am angry at supposedly progressive DUers who:
a) bemoan the quality of vehicles many admittedly haven't driven in 20 years;
b) cheer on foreign automakers without understanding that they are not happy-happy-joy-joy companies who adore their workers and the environment;
c) discount the historic role of labor in Democratic politics by kicking our UAW folks when they're down;
d) insinuate right-leaning tendencies to people who challenge their worldview on this industry with valid points.

3) I think it should say something about the quality of Ford's vehicles that I am still defending them. They laid ME off, and I am still supporting them. WTF is up with that? I understand this may be difficult to grasp, but I believe they are turning things around. If I didn't, I would not have responded.

So yeah I'm a little perturbed. About a lot of things. If I had time for a full treatise, I'd do it. I don't.

And don't you DARE imply, even obliquely, that I vote for right-wing junk. I vote straight Democratic, even when they sh!t on the industry that supports many of my friends and family. Others in Michigan may not be as forgiving as I am. Just saying.

And you're right: it should have been "keep it up." I type far faster than I think, which is sometimes a problem. Toodles.

[DainBramaged]

56. They don't give a shit, our trade deficit proves it

and it is so prevalent here it makes me sick.

[susanna]

58. Hi DainBramaged.

I wondered when you'd be here. I've read a lot of your posts on this very topic in the past. We are a lonely group, indeed. Sad, but true.

[DainBramaged]

61. I am so sick of the Domestic bashers here on DU

People who haven't bought a fucking Domestic in a generation who claim they know that the quality of their transplant is better, they are gnat brains and they contribute t the downfall of the economy, I don't give a shit what they think about me either.


Thanks for your support

[susanna]

63. You're very welcome. :-) n/t

[Tesha]

132. Oddly enough, you never address the concerns raised by those of us who *HAVE* "bought American"...

within the last several Presidents. For example, I've detailed for you several
ways that my Ford Taurus was a PoS (including multiple transmission failures
and rear brake hoses that became pinched shut due to corrosion, leading to
the rear calipers freezing "applied"). I've also detailed for you multiple, repeated
failures in our Dodge Caravan.

Yet you never address these, instead trying to tar some hypothetical bunch of
DUers who in your eyes don't have sufficient experience in your eyes with the
"domestic" brands.

Your reasoning is exactly backwards: The reason why we now avoid the
domestic brands is *PRECISELY BECAUSE WE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THEM*.
(We junked the Taurus a couple of years ago, but are still babying the
Caravan along, hopefully for another few years.)

Tesha

[michreject]

121. I'm with you

Thiss loyality to non union products baffles me.

[LSK]

134. did you read the OP???

It seems to be pointing out that its managements fault and the workers bear the brunt of the losses from managements mistakes.

I think you misunderstood the joke.

[trthnd4jstc]

14. Many Wealthy People Rationalize that the American Worker is no good.

If the A$$hole White Working Guys really knew what their Rich Overlords in the Republican Party really thought of them, would these working class white guys keep voting Republican? If McSame wins, it is the fault of the Rascist Working Class White Guys who just hate everything liberal. One thing to tell these hateful people. A Liberal is someone who thinks that others should have the freedom to determine his or her own life without the Government telling them what to do. A liberal believes in liberty for all people, including you. Now think you f#ckers, the Republican Party does not believe in your freedom, except to own a freaking gun, but other than that no. They are the Fascist Party. The Party for the Rich. The Democratic Party, though imperfect, is the party for everyone, including the rich. Stop Hating Liberals. Stop Hating Democrats.

I tried to get Ford, through letters, to retool to the Metric System, and retool to build Electric Vehicles. No. No. No. That is what I got. They Blame American Workers. Upper Management never took responsibility for a more useful strategy, and here we are. And Strangely, many working class white guys, even working at the big three auto manufacturers, voted Reagan, Bush, and Bush. Why! They never woke up to what is really happening. Some of the Factory Workers I talk to vote Republican with the saying, "a poor man does not sign your checks." Well, I guess just give the rich every F#cking thing why don't you?

[pipoman]

17. I really see no reason to your diatribe here

but since you bring it up.. The Democratic party turned on their blue collar base back in 1993 and 1994 if you remember. It was a Democratic congress and President who, in all their wisdom, flushed thousands of US jobs south with the blind support and passage of NAFTA and GATT ignoring the opposition of most Americans and many labor unions. Remember the chant from on high that American workers can compete with workers in any other nation in the world without regard for the 3rd world, corrupt governments running those workers Americans were to compete against? Many here at DU like to blame the pugs for stealing elections when in reality it was our leadership which pissed away those elections by taking a big steaming shit on American blue collar workers and American farmers, who were the Democratic base, by supporting and passing NAFTA, GATT, and gun control.

[Fumesucker]

24. I'm a "working class white guy"...

And I'll just point out that working class white guys voted Reagan and Bush long before the Dems voted for NAFTA. I remember arguing with some of my fellow construction workers during the 1980 presidential campaign and becoming highly frustrated when they simply didn't understand that Reagan didn't give the slightest shit about them.

The NAFTA vote was a huge mistake, I'll grant you that (and I thought so at the time), but don't blame the working class white guys voting Republican on that.

The cause has to come _before_ the effect.

This whole NAFTA issue really drives home the point with a sledgehammer that there really is only one party in America with two wings, the party of big money.

Big money wanted NAFTA and what big money wants, big money gets. It doesn't really matter which "party" is in office, they both are on the payroll of big money.

[pipoman]

101. I don't disagree

that many voted for Raygun and Poopy. Then many voted for Bill who summarily kicked them in the groin, kneed them in the head, and took a dump on them...and is completely unapologetic to this day. The combination of the trade agreements and the assault weapons ban surely lost us the Congress in 1994 and the presidency in 2000 by kicking traditional blue collar and rural Democrats squarely in the nuts. If Bill and the party would have listened to the 70% of us who strongly opposed the trade agreements and the majority of traditional rural dems who strongly opposed the AWB, likely we wouldn't be in Iraq right now. Now here we are with our candidate who instills hope choosing one of the strongest supporters of the trade agreements, the AUTHOR of the idiotic AWB, and strong supporter of the Iraq invasion as his running mate...go figure...that choice alone puts Obama in a dead heat with a guy who is nearly dead. I so hoped for a running mate who could bring hope with him/her...no such luck. Most people in this country vote based on hope more than party lines. Once a party has defecated on them they look to the other party for hope which doesn't seem to ever materialize into reality.

[trthnd4jstc]

32. I have been involved in politics for years.

I am a mixed blood working class guy who looks white. I am against Nafta, Gatt, China receiving most favored nation in the WTO, but it is a fact that many of the people at the top have manipulated the vote, and propagandized to get the white working class guy to hate liberals, hate homosexuals, and to vote republican. I have been visciously treated by white guys for being a liberal and socialistic and tolerant of people with color, i.e. black people, oriental people, and hispanic people. Well, I was right about almost everything that I have been fighting for over the last 26 years. I live my life with honor, I do not steal, I am politically active, and I think if one has power one behaves a step above everyone else.

Not all White Working Class Men have voted Republican, but be honest, about 60% will not vote for Sen. Obama, and in that 60% are those who are bigots!

That is my point. The Republican Party cannot be allowed to win in Novemeber. And, the White Working Class Men who refuse to vote Democratic need to wake up to the fact that after 8 years of this Criminal Fascist Regime, the Republic needs to be restored.

Also, I agree the Democratic Party has taken steps that show that they are beholden to the upper 1% also, yet, in the sum of things, the Democratic Party does more for the Working Class than the Republican Party.

Finally, I truly tried to get Ford to offer the Electric Car, to offer Hybrids, to offer Flex-Fuel. I knew a fellow who invented a fuel injection system that he sold to Ford, and Ford never put it out. This guys Fuel Injector allowed a Mustang to get 67 miles to the gallon. Ford makes a decent work truck. I hate seeing American Manufacturing lose. It appears to me that part of the problem is all of the bigotry the rich have against the working class, and the fact that some in the working class did not fight against the destruction of the American Manufacturing Base. I am a working class guy, and I try to help the world, and our nation improve, but I work an average of 65 Hours a week and help raise my 14 year old son. So many people live their lives trying to ignore the big picture. The Bigotry that some of those who had the decent jobs had towards the outsiders is part of the cause of why we do not have Solidarity. That is the point.

[B Calm]

38. Great post!

[pipoman]

102. What?

What can we point to that the party has done for the working class lately? What? Please tell me, I could use the ammunition. Further what concrete proposals are currently on the table to help the working class if Obama is elected? It's not that I think there is anything on the other side, but it is going to require some good ideas which the working class can believe in to insure their votes, otherwise it is going to be a split and the cards will fall where they will, IMHO. I completely disagree with your 60% figure, if that were so Obama wouldn't even be in contention. I don't believe 60% of white workers are bigots, they are just looking for hope too, if they believe Obama will deliver they will vote for him.

[OwnedByFerrets]

15. Isnt a big part of this that Toyota doesnt

hire union workers? Im too tired to confirm this, but I think its true.

[susanna]

16. No. They don't.

They do, however, pay the prevailing union wage. Once they are in the driver's seat (GM, Ford, Chrysler are gone, in other words) they will knock the wages down as low as they can. That is generally their game.

Strangely enough, the "Big Three" are the last line of defense. But don't think this forum is interested in that, because it isn't.

I'm still a Democrat. I will still vote Obama. But NOT because of their treatment of the domestic auto industry; I'll do it in spite of it, because many of his other policies I believe in. But I am one of the very few who feel that way in Michigan, which is why my earlier posts were so heated. I still can't understand why the national party is not more engaged on this issue. A lot of folks in Michigan feel abandoned, rightly or not. :-(

on edit: added some words that hopefully mean something

[tabasco]

22. Do you have evidence that Toyota has ever done this?

"Once they are in the driver's seat (GM, Ford, Chrysler are gone, in other words) they will knock the wages down as low as they can. That is generally their game."

Where have they done this before? I'm curious. Thanks.

[Selatius]

29. They may or may not do this, but historically speaking the presence of a union raises wages.

Even if the union is not directly involved in that segment of the market, the mere fact that a union exists in the labor pool for car plants means that employers would have to watch out not to pay workers too low a salary. If they did so, what happens is the non-unionized workers will see the huge disparity in benefits between themselves and UAW workers and will demand concessions. If the company doesn't give concessions, then the company then faces union organizers entering their work force with a receptive audience.

The only thing Toyota has in its favor by locating manufacturing plants in the Deep South is that all those states have "right-to-work" laws that essentially cripples labor unions by creating a freeloader problem. The law says non-unionized workers can work in a union shop, but the kicker is that the law takes it a step further and dictates the non-unionized worker also must receive the exact same benefits as unionized workers. There's the freeloader problem. For many, they simply ask, "Why should I join a labor union if I get the same benefits without the union dues?"

Logically, the reverse is true. If you liquidate a union in a particular segment of the labor market, that entire segment is affected even in companies that don't have labor unions.

[pipoman]

82. IMHO

Labor unions fell into obscurity for 2 basic reasons. First was insistence by the unions to make raises and promotions based on seniority and not performance. From a practical standpoint around 30% of the American work force is lazy and/or incompetent yet their jobs were protected and employers were forced to promote these workers even though they were not worthy of even keeping their job. Over the years companies became top heavy in attempt to comply with union regulations, thus the parody of the OP. Second the enactment of trade agreements like NAFTA and GATT which took away protections which had always been in place for American workers not to be in competition with 3rd world workers. Those tariffs adjusted the cost of goods coming into the US market from those 3rd world countries. As the workforce became better compensated the tariffs were reduced. NAFTA and GATT essentially reversed this requiring US workers to accept the same standard of living as the 3rd world or loose their jobs to those nations...we don't have to look far to see how that has worked out for us.

Once upon a time the Democratic party blue collar base was protected by party officials, now the party officials have succumbed to the money and influence peddled by their urban elite and self proclaimed intellectual puppet masters. They have quit listening to the base. If they listened or cared what the traditional Democratic base wanted we wouldn't have NAFTA or GATT or gun control for that matter. I am not advocating for the Pugs either, I just expect them to do this shit and they admit it. Who is looking out for the interests of US blue collar and rural voters?...Right now, nobody...that will change in the not so distant future or one party will feel the agony of defeat...I speculate it will be the Democratic party as they have since the enactment of NAFTA, GATT, and the 'assault weapons ban'. Obama better find a way to recapture these voters and fix the damage done or this party is in real trouble, again IMHO.

[susanna]

43. Since this series of events has not yet happened...

you're asking a question that can't yet be answered. However, read the following:

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/04/leaked_memo_and.html

I think that they are already taking advantage of the domestic three and UAW woes to further their own corporate aims. And, if history is any guide, will continue to do so as the chances present themselves.

Another good one:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/been-there-done-that-bought-the-politicians-toyota-falls-out-of-love-with-us-production/

I specifically like this quote from the above article:

Toyota is also extremely concerned about its declining product quality. The company’s rep rests on the bedrock of reliability, which has been shaken by massive product recalls. The world’s largest automaker has more faith in its Japanese factories’ abilities to right that wrong than its American equivalents’.

IOW, they'll pull US production before they'll pull Japan's. Hope this helps illustrate why I hold the opinion I do re: Toyota. They're in it for the money, just like the others. It's a vicious industry and competition is fierce. They play in the dirt, too.

[fujiyama]

25. I just recently left MI

after working at Ford. I got laid off. But here's the thing: before working at Ford I worked at Toyota and while the quality of the worker isn't much different, the management IS.

Ford needs to get its ass in gear and in my opinion (and many others') get rid of many other useless middle management types that actually brag about not making fuel efficient vehicles (yes I was in meetings where the head of the division said "we don't make the most fuel efficient car, but only those that are 'fun' to drive). Fucking idiot. I hope that son of a bitch gets canned. I feel bad for the rest that were in my situation. I was just lucky I found a job just after getting laid off!

[susanna]

31. I agree completely re: middle management at Ford. They're clueless.

My colleagues and I were pleading with management to bring over our fuel-efficient European models FIVE years ago. They're just now staring to think about it. No doubt the execs are utterly worthless wastes of space. I'm mad at them as well. Like you, I'm lucky too. I'm back to work, though still in Michigan. My concern is not at all for executives and their middle layer minions, but I have many general salaried colleagues still in a precarious position. The general sense of glee here on DU about the domestic companies' past failures and current economic peril are shocking to me for that reason. I don't see that changing anytime soon; it's a personal reaction to a personal situation. If the domestic three go under, I don't think a lot of people understand just what that will do to the economy. They employ hundreds of thousands (at the main companies and at suppliers) countrywide. It is a terrifying prospect for an economy that is already on life support.

My most serious concern, as outlined in previous posts, is that Michigan could conceivably go red this time out because of all the auto industry bashing lately. That and the mayoral scandal that is engulfing Detroit, and we may just have a recipe for disaster. I hope I'm wrong - because the auto industry bashing is coming from both the right and left, so it could be a wash - but the general tone here is not good. Not good at all.

One bright note. There's a rally in Detroit today for Obama. I think there will be good turnout. :-)

[OwnedByFerrets]

28. Thank you for helping me understand.

One of the biggest defenders of Unions is Thom Hartmann. I listen every day and he is constantly pushing unions. They advertise on his show also. He completely understands how important they are and how the reichwing has done all it can to destroy them.

[susanna]

33. You're welcome.

Unions do have their place, and have been responsible for many gains in the areas of worker's rights and safer work conditions. The domestic three have slowly worked an agenda that is strangling the union. It's a longer, slower, more painful version of union-busting, done under the banner of "free markets." And it is working. Public opinion of the UAW is at an all-time low even here in Michigan. So much so that the UAW had to accept a two-tier wage structure during the last contract, which was a stunning capitulation of historic proportions in the auto industry. There is more to come. The corporations are not done. Not by a long shot. :-(

on edit: plural where needed

[DainBramaged]

59. Toyota refuse to hire Union (UAW) so they can pay less, offer less benefits

fire at will, and excepting the NUMMI joint venture with GM in California, ALWAYS set up plants in areas with poor education and "Red" politics so that the local governments look the other way. And they demand BILLIONS in concessions to locate their 'assembly' plants since little to NONE of their parts are sourced in the US but from Japan, China and Mexico.

[Brewman_Jax]

18. That's why I drive Toyotas not Fords

nt

[Romulox]

40. Thanks for supporting US labor! nt

[Brewman_Jax]

46. Not supporting poor products

if they had done the job properly 20+ years ago, there might be a better outcome.

[Romulox]

64. Agreed, but what makes you think the product or service YOU produce isn't mediocre?

[Brewman_Jax]

75. What's that have to do with the topic?

[Romulox]

80. It's my experience that most cut-throat capitalists get VERY defensive

when an attempt is made to assess the value of their own labor in an unregulated marketplace. That wouldn't be the case with you, now would it? You are so efficient, that you could never be outsourced or replaced, right? :silly:

[Brewman_Jax]

83. Stick to the topic

[Romulox]

84. Labor solidarity (or lack thereof,) is precisely the topic. nt

[aikoaiko]

37. I drive a Scion. Xb, :-)

[Romulox]

44. I support outsourcing IT work! :-D nt

[aikoaiko]

70. If Ford made the Scion Xb, then I'd own a Ford.

As it is, Toyota took the chance and made the car.

[Romulox]

96. If Americans provided cheaper IT, then I would buy US developed software! :^) nt.

[Romulox]

39. This thread is a HUGE part of why OH, MI, PA are "battleground" states.

"Progressive" = "neo-liberal"???

[Fumesucker]

51. What, because people got burned with crappy cars years ago?

And don't want to repeat the experience?

A car is the second most expensive thing most people will ever buy after a home. Get burned with a crappy product on a purchase of that magnitude and you are going to do anything you can to keep that from happening again. That specifically includes not buying another car from the same manufacturer.

If the UAW would worry as much about the quality of the product their workers were turning out as they do benefits and wages this might not be happening.

I know the average production line worker has little to do with the design of the cars, but the UAW as a whole has a good deal of clout with the auto companies. Put some of that clout to work in service of the poor customer and it might help the workers in the long run.

The car buyer is not responsible for the poor decisions of the American auto manufacturers over the decades, all we can do is try to keep from getting financially raped by them by not buying their products.

[Romulox]

62. A responsible consumer doesn't base purchasing decisions on 20 year old data.

Most of the people ranting about the "reliability" of US cars have no clue as to the hard data on the subject. None.

But the larger issue is the jettisoning of labor from the so-called "big tent"...:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

71. LOL.. Personal experience is a very strong bias to overcome

With statistical data.

The car manufacturers don't want us to make our purchases on a rational basis, every ad is designed with an emotional appeal.

Fuck me in the ass once and I'm not giving you another chance, I don't care what the statistics say.

And it's the politicians who are taking big money from corporate donors who have ejected labor from the big tent, don't blame car buyers or even voters for that.

[emilyg]

106. This consumer had

1 Chevy, 1 Buick, 2 Fords. I certainly was willing to buy American made. After much disappointment switched to Toyota and stayed with Toyota.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

The workers in PA, OH, MI, vote Republican because they support unions?

[Romulox]

67. Nope. The workers in PA, OH, MI vote Republican **because the Democrats don't support labor**.

:hi:

When both Democrats and Republicans spout deregulation, "free trade", and economic darwinism, it leaves a huge opening for Republicans to win elections based on "culture war" issues that are largely irrelevant to most people's lives.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. Then it's NOT a huge reason.

They're voting for Repugs because they love guns, God, and the flag.

Actually, I doubt that PA and MI are really battleground states this time around. Even the Reagan Democrats can see disaster when they're suffering from it.

[Romulox]

74. No, they're voting Repub because YOU love free trade, deregulation, laissez faire capitalism.

Or you at least acquiesce to all of these with no complaint, and try to demonize people who make an issue of these odious and predatory economic policies. :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Really?

Golly, I didn't realize I had all that much power.

Nor do I "love" free trade, deregulation and, being a socialist, I certainly don't love capitalism of any sort.

But, I do acknowledge that Toyota manufactues better cars than Ford/GM/Chrysler. Or, for that matter, VW, Datsun, Honda, Mazda, Jaguar, Triumph, and Fiat.

Since when has Ford become Socialist? I must've missed the revolution.

[Romulox]

81. Right. You're the type of "socialist" who doesn't support labor.

PS: To put a fine point on your otherwise encyclopedic knowledge of the auto industry,

Triumph went out of business years ago. Jaguar was until months ago a wholly owned brand of Ford. Mazda is a partner to Ford, and Fords and Mazdas roll off the same line in Flatrock, Michigan.

I'm surprised that someone as informed as you didn't know all of this. I'm even more shocked that a DU "progressive" ("socialist", even! :wow: ) doesn't support his fellow workers. :hi: :silly:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Toyota workers aren't "labor"?

As for the cars mentioned, they were a list of the kinds of cars that I've owned over the years. And, I was speaking of their quality as compared to the Toyotas I own now.

I owe no particular fealty to the workers of the United States above those of other countries.

BTW I was a union steward in both the NALC and the APWU. My Socialist father, and his brother, were organizers for the ILWU..and had the scars to prove it.

The sad fact is that the United States can no longer compete on the world market without cutting the cost of labor and/or improving their products. And, as history has amply proven, the capitalists are a helluva lot more likely to cut the cost of labor before improving the products to a degree that people are willing to pay more for them over equal or better products. And, if they can't cut the cost of labor here, they'll move it overseas until the workers there demand higher wages.

It's either that or go out of business.

I'm surprised that someone as informed as you doesn't see that.

[Romulox]

92. ORGANIZED labor, Mr. (alleged) Shop Steward...

:eyes:

"I owe no particular fealty to the workers of the United States above those of other countries."

So you are no different than Bill Gates, George Bush, or Dick Cheney in this respect... Curious how the ideology of the hard right can be wrapped up in a nice, "progressive" bow.

And all by a "socialist" who doesn't care about workers! :silly: :rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

93. Oh, brother.

Instead of dealing with what I wrote, you attack my credentials? Or, is it my "patriotism" because I think that workers are workers, American, organized, or not.

I was a steward in both of those unions. How about you, Mr. Defender of Labor? Ever been on strike? Ever been across the table with management trying to defend some worker with the deck loaded against him? Ever stuck your neck out for a hopeless case?

It's interesting that you failed to respond to the rest of my post about the reality of the situation now facing workers.

[Romulox]

95. If you "owe no particular fealty to the workers of the United States," then what's there to discuss?

You occupy the same ideological position as every dog-eat-dog capitalist, right wing "libertarian", and multinational corporation. I'm not sure what hidden and ponderous meaning you think is hiding in what is, ultimately, an ideology indistinguishable from the economic ideology of the hard right.

But good luck with achieving socialist utopia via outsourcing and "free trade" with authoritarian regimes! :hi: :rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

98. Still can't argue the points?

Show me, or at least make a stab at, where I'm wrong. Or, are you going to keep spouting half-assed insults and slogans with nothing to back them up.

And, do tell all you've done for "American Labor" other than get misty eyed when somebody sings "God Bless America".

[Romulox]

99. There is no "point" to argue. You hold an ideological position I find morally repugnant.

What do you want me to argue? That you do owe "fealty" (sic!) to the American worker? That your position on this issue is indistinguishable from that of William F. Buckley or Jack Welch, or Wal-mart CEO Lee Scott? That the current system of world trade is unfair, inequitable to workers in both the developed and developing nations, and ultimately unsustainable? That it is infantile and ludicrous to imagine that the multinational corporations and oligarchs that most benefit from your "no fealty to the American worker" ideology will change course, about face 180 degrees, and begin to distribute--instead of concentrate-- their massive wealth and political power in the service of global socialism? That your "free trade" ideology has wreaked environmental devastation in the third world to serve the first world's appetite for plastic baubles?

Are you also a tax dodger? Do you owe any particular fealty to your fellow tax-payers? Do you vote against school millages (and all in solidarity with the school kids of the world!)? Well? :silly:

What in hell can I say to someone with such an absurd world-view as this? In fact, I have nothing whatsoever further to say to you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. Well, if you can't argue the points, shout instead?

What gives you the impression that I have a "free trade" ideology by pointing out irrefutable (by you, at least) facts.

Where have I stated, in any way, an expectation that the capitalists are going to turn socialist?

With your inability to refute what is obvious, you have decided to resort to junior-high shower room antics and now turn tail.

Do you really believe that not buying a t-shirt made in Guatemala is going to restore American manufacturing?

What is your solution to the dilemma beyond slogans?

Your romantic belief that buying a Ford from the American Capitalists rather than Toyota Capitalists will stop them from screwing their own workers is childish at best.

So, one last chance. Please tell me how the American capitalists CAN compete with the foreign capitalists without cutting labor costs?

Oh, yeah. I do pay my taxes. And, I do support the schools every election. Altho', for the life of me, I can see absolutely no relevance in it to the argument at hand.

[LanternWaste]

125. I can only imagine that...

I can only imagine that each and every possession you own is built in America by American labor, yes?

Or will you present us with exceptions and qualifiers that apply to those foreign made objects you yourself have purchased...

[Romulox]

128. The choice between "every possession you own...built in America" and

"owe no particular fealty to the workers of the United States" is completely bogus. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

130. Was every possession you own built in America by Americans?

Was every possession you own built in America by Americans?

Otherwise, it seems your arguments of supporting American labor differs from those with whom you disagree merely in degrees.

[Romulox]

131. Didn't I just say as much? (Look up!) nt

[Fumesucker]

135. No, you didn't even imply that every possession in your home was made by American workers.

You totally dodged the question.

[Romulox]

137. Because attempting to force someone to defend an absolutist position that they haven't adopted

is silly. :silly:

I never said I was against all trade. I am taking issue with a person who claims to have "no particular fealty to American workers." Funny that you've found no time to pick any nits with regard to that statement. :hi:

PS "Didn't I just say as much" was a response to the question in the earlier post: "it seems your arguments of supporting American labor differs from those with whom you disagree merely in degrees." What a stunning insight, by-the-by! :rofl:

[Fumesucker]

142. So you have no problem with buying foreign made products?

What then exactly is your beef?

[pstokely]

144. Isn't a Ford built in Mexico a foreign product?

nt

[MicaelS]

116. "No particular fealty to the workers of the United States"

That attitude right there among "Progressives" is part and parcel of what is wrong with American Left. Equating foreign workers as equal to American workers. You worry too much about other people, and not enough about Americans. That's why I'm a Populist, NOT a Progressive. I'm an American Firster, PERIOD. I don't give a damn about the Canadian or Mexican worker. Let their countries take care of their own workers, we need to take care of our own. You expect Republicans and Libertarians to sell out Americans, you sure as don't expect it from the Left.

Fuck Internationalism.

[MicaelS]

118. And if Democrats would leave guns the fuck alone

And unequivocally support the Second Amendment, that would give them one less reason to vote Republican, wouldn't it? But NOOOOOO, it's one fucking attempted "assault weapons" ban, or "gun show loophole" or other gun ban idiocy after another. Democrats think all they have to do is pander every 4 years by exclaiming "We don't want to take your hunting guns away" and that's all it takes. Which means they DO want to take the non-hunting guns away, which gun owners are quick to realize. And that's why Democrats get clobbered at the National level.

[ogneopasno]

45. Not funny. I love my Fords.

I just got 200K out of my 2001 Focus wagon. I've had my 2008 Taurus for almost a year and love it, getting 27 mpg. Also just bought a 2008 Focus, getting 36 mpg. Awesome all around.

[susanna]

47. We love our Mercury Milan, Ford Econoline and Ford Ranger.

All in fantastic shape and plugging away. The Ranger is a 1993 with over 230,000 miles on it. Tough little workhorse. My gardening truck. 2000 Econoline's approaching 100,000 miles with only standard maintenance and replacement parts (one accident fix as well). The 2007 Milan has 18,500 miles with no issues whatsoever, just oil changes.

I guess the rowboat team was staffed with engineers, technicians, analysts and assembly workers the day our vehicles were built. Management must have taken a break or something. ;-)

[ogneopasno]

48. Right on, right on!

I love those Rangers. Tough little buggers.

[krispos42]

111. I got 255,000 miles out of an '87 T-Bird before the head gasket blew.

Everything in the engine was factory-original. Synthentic oil is a wonderful thing.


I have an 89 Olds Regency in the parking lot with 192,000 miles on it that starts immediately and gets over 23 highway mpg, with plenty of power. Everything in that engine is factory-original as well. Yeah, there's a multitude of small things wrong with it now, but the mechanicals are great.


I just got a 2005 Subaru Impreza station wagon with 32,000 miles on it, mostly because it had all-wheel-drive and a stick shift. I'm hoping it lasts long enough to be my kid's first car. We'll see.

[ogneopasno]

129. Those head gaskets getcha every time.

Of course, if it's only after 255K, I think you're doing all right, heh.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. We love our Toyotas.

'91 Tercel & '94 4x4 pickup.

By all indications they'll still be running when we aren't.

[Fumesucker]

60. Top Gear is a Brit TV show about cars..

They set out to deliberately try to destroy a Toyota diesel pickup.

Put it on top of a multi story building that was being explosively demolished and put it out in the ocean for the tide to cover..

It still ran after all that.

With no replacement parts and only minimal repair from a mechanic.

[XOKCowboy]

86. A company I used to work for got flooded. Our S-10s and E-250 vans

all were in water 5' high. All were useless. We had one little Toyota Corolla station wagon that was missing. We found it 5 blocks away where it had floated. We got in, put in the key, started it up and had at least one car to drive.

[XOKCowboy]

87. Before you call me a union basher....

I've owned 2 Ford F250s (always been a fan of Ford Trucks) and currently own an "American" car, a Daimler Stratus.

[CRF450]

90. Unless that engine didn't get water in it, I'm calling BS

Any engine with water in it is pretty much toast.

[XOKCowboy]

108. I swear to you it started as soon as we got in it.

It also floated about 4 blocks downstream. The only damage to it was some scratches and dents on the side from the building that kept it from floating down the creek.

I wouldn't make that up. It has always amazed me. The air conditioner even worked. Sorry but true.

[DainBramaged]

54. I don't appreciate you sharing this here, it ALWAYS brings out the Union last jerkoffs

[endless october]

65. Ford

Ford is a union shop. Toyota isn't.

Count me in the pro-union crowd.

[Romulox]

69. Union support is purely optional for modern, ala carte "progressives"! nt

[Fumesucker]

76. I'm going to relate my PERCEPTION of how things are..

I don't really know if this is true or not, but this is how it seems to me. I'd like some input on whether I'm completely off base or not.

Getting in a union appears to me to be at least to some extent dependent upon who you know or who you are related to.

In my case I live in a "right to work (for less)" state and don't know anyone in a union. My perception is that there is little chance of my ever getting a union job, in that those who know someone or are related to someone already in the union are going to scarf up all the opportunities.

I know a lot of people have this perception, that's why I'm asking whether there is any truth to this or not.

[Romulox]

77. Is this a joke? Millions of manufacturing jobs have been lost in the last 20 years.

Millions of unionized jobs in the building trades have been undercut by unregulated labor markets. And you're curious if you have to "know someone" to join a union in a state with a policy ("right to work") specifically designed to hamper union organization?

Let's just say that union membership is not a growth industry right now. You can't join a union because there are no union jobs. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

89. I do know that..

Nevertheless, there are people being hired on as union workers from time to time..

I'd be really interested to know what percentage of those new hires are people that already have connections with the union.

I'm well aware that the majority of jobs (not just union jobs, but all jobs) are filled through informal means, they never make it to the want ads or craigslist or whatever. Someone knows someone who is looking for a job and tells them of an opening in their company that has not yet been advertised, that sort of thing. I've gotten several jobs in my life that way, including the best one I ever had.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if things don't work at least somewhat that way with union jobs.

[BlueCollar]

79. Not true

best way to find a Union job is to call the local Central Labor Council. They'll be listed under Labor Organisations in the yellow pages. Advise the person who answers the phone of what you are looking for...I.E. a Union job in your area. Chances are pretty good that they'll put you in touch with someone that is hiring that has a Union on the property...

The rest is up to you.

[Fumesucker]

91. Thanks for the info...

I'm well past the point where I can even consider starting another career so my question was entirely theoretical.

But there may be someone else reading this that can use the info.

[ogneopasno]

105. Another way to get a union job is to organize the one you're in now.

nt

[Fumesucker]

107. I could organize myself...

But I'm about as disorganized as it's possible to get and still not lose your own head. ;)

I've been self employed for several decades now..

[flvegan]

73. Hopefully, Ford is turning this around

From what I've read, they're planning on bringing several of their (very good) higher mpg models from Europe over here. Now, they just need to get away from the outsourcing, lesson learned and all that, and regain some ground on their reputation. I don't believe in buying cars brand new, so I won't help them, but I hope they do turn it around.

[bean fidhleir]

88. What I'd like to know is why, with the Big Three gasping and hundreds or thousands

of highly skilled people in Detroit who need work, there's nobody building a 120mpg (these get 60) version of this:

http://www.pembleton.co.uk/PMC.html

[Lorien]

97. A friend told me that Toyota would be building new hybrid plants here in

the USA. The reason being that the dollar is weak and fuel prices are high, so building them here makes more sense then building them elsewhere and paying to ship them here. Seems simple enough.

[Fading Captain]

103. Look, DU is throwing American workers under the bus again

And will be flummoxed again in November when the Republicans win again.

I am ashamed at the way American Democrats, even in Michigan, have turned their back on working class.

That's why Michigan, Ohio and other rust-belt states are in play.

[MindPilot]

104. From someone who works for a Japanese company...

they are not exactly the model of managerial efficiency either.

Sometimes I'll be in a store and see my employer's products and--thinking about the red tape and chaos I see every day--ask "how the hell did this stuff ever actually get built?"

[susanna]

122. Well, in that regard the U.S. and Japanese are more alike than different then LOL. n/t

[Bluebug]

109. even though this happened long ago

... my husband once had a early 90's Ford Taurus; bought it used but he was faithful about getting maintenance check-ups. First the power windows stopped working; then shortly afterward while he was driving at night, in the middle of winter, the dashboard & headlights just completely went kaput, but the engine still ran. He could have been killed-- would you blame him for not buying another Ford ever again?

[XOKCowboy]

110. 92 Ford Taurus? I had one. Love it till it got to 85000 miles

Then the 3.8 Liter V6s head started to warp. It started to overheat and the heater stopped working. I soon found out that this is not only common in old Taurus' but pretty much a constant. When I tried to trade it in they'd look at the mileage and just shake their heads. I eventually took it to the salvage yard. I got $50 and a 2 mile ride home.

I love Ford trucks (except for the 6.0 liter diesel fiasco) but it'll be a long time before I buy another Ford car.

[cabbage08]

113. Same story

after I replaced the engine the transmission went.

[knitter4democracy]

120. They fixed most of those in the later cars.

My hubby's Taurus runs great, even though it's seven years old with a ton of miles on it.

[NNN0LHI]

112. You are leaving out a few important details B Calm

The US companies all have retirement and medical benefits to pay for tens of thousands of workers who have retired since they have been in operation for decades before any Toyota ever built a plant here. Toyota doesn't have that added cost.

Toyota doesn't have any of that because all their plants are fairly new operations in comparison.

Telling half the story is not telling the truth by the way.

Don

[bean fidhleir]

114. And do you think that Ford is paying retirement and medical out of current income?

It used to be that retirement plans were required to be fully funded - that's what made them so attractive to raiders. So, unless Ford stripped their funds, they're paying benefits today from monies set aside when the current retirees were working and making a profit for Ford.

Did Ford strip their retirement funds?

[NNN0LHI]

115. The money is invested in the stock market

How has the stock market been doing lately?

Does that answer your question?

Don

[bean fidhleir]

117. So what? The retirement fund should be overfunded to the point of immunity

from stock-market volatility. That was the law. So unless Ford raided the fund, your stock-market reference is irrelevant.

[Egalitariat]

143. They run their retirement funds the same way we run Social Security

Today's benefits are paid for with today's payroll taxes. There is no fund.

[knitter4democracy]

119. I had a Subaru. It sucked. I bought a Ford Freestyle (now Taurus X).

I freakin' love my car. Same gas mileage, fits us all better, not that much bigger on the outside but huge inside. Best car I've ever had, hands down.

My husband's 2001 Taurus runs great, and even the mechanic told him never to get rid of it until he absolutely has to. Great, great car.

My brother used to work in R&D for Ford, and his wife used to be one of their top environmental engineers. They design good stuff, though some of the contract/union stuff is hard on the research guys (an engineer can't so much as pick up a wrench when he sees something on the prototype engine that needs fixing--he has to go get a union mechanic to do it--frustrated my brother to no end). The problem is that it's very top heavy and run by bean counters and not engineers who know how to put out a good product.

[paparush]

123. 2003 Corolla - 47 MPG!

[Forkboy]

124. I choose other.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

Toyota. Meh.

I'm driving a Corrolla now, guess I don't have too many complaints about it, but I'm probably not interested in buying Toyota again. I'm not really sold on them.

Best car I ever drove was an American made Dodge Shadow.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

126. Self delete. nt

[Bombero1956]

136. Ford Mustang GT driver

on my second one. Got this one in 2006 and kept the 99 GT as well. Never a problem, a blast to drive too. I drive American cars.

[texasleo]

138. k+r

[pstokely]

139. Would you rather drive a Ford built in Mexico or a Toyota built in Kentucky at a non union plant?

I think the NUMI plant in CA is union.

[Romulox]

140. edit: dupe

[Romulox]

141. Toyota sales fall 9.4% as truck sales plummet

Toyota sales fall 9.4% as truck sales plummet

Toyota said Wednesday that its August vehicle sales dropped 9.4% to 211,533 vehicles as sales of some of its trucks and SUV’s plummeted more than 50%.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080903/BUSINESS01/80903081