Karl Marx and Ayn Rand say that the most important thing in life is money. Do you agree?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: Karl Marx and Ayn Rand say that the most important thing in life is money. Do you agree?

[Tikki]

1. Answer: NO

[SteppingRazor]

2. Karl Marx thought the most important thing was work, not money.

And Ayn Rand thought the most important thing was self-interest.

[Boojatta]

7. Did he include domestic chores in the category "work"?

Did he think that college professors were "workers"?

Did he include managers of a publishing company in the category "workers"?

[SteppingRazor]

12. That would all depend on the economic system under which those occupations took place.

On edit: To get at some sort of basic definition, though, work would be labor to produce a good or service. As everything you described would fall into that category, yes, it would be work.

[Recursion]

17. In general, yes

All labor is labor and adds use-value to something. Not all labor is (yet) capitalized; Marx posited that the increasing capitalization of labor could not sustain itself and would yield itself to a socialization of the means of production and equal liability for labor.

While I'm not a Marx fanboy, in fairness an unbiased reading of what he wrote predicts more what happened and is happening in industrialized Western Europe and (more slowly) the US and Australia, rather than what happened in Russia or China -- the idea of a non-industrialized country becoming socialist and then industrializing was not only contrary to what he said, having happened it's something of a challenge to his model (ironically, the economic successes of the Soviet Union are some of the biggest rebuttals against Marx's theories).

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Marx talked about labor power, not workers

Labor POWER is an abstract capacity.

Marx was also focused on a particular form of power emerging at the time. It's been well demonstrated that Marx's concept of labor power CAN be applied to intellectual and affective labor (and, indeed, must be in post-industrial societies), with the proviso that the attachment of labor power to TIME for the purpose of constituting value is no longer adequate.

[Runcible Spoon]

55. Mix one part Marx with some Bourdieu, Foucault, Gramsci, and Giddens. Stir and serve...

answers most questions :evilgrin:

[closeupready]

3. I disagree with that statement, and

I don't know if Karl Marx or Ayn Rand ever said it, but I imagine Ayn Rand would have agreed with something like that. Marx would have had a more complicated response, that life is about not just money, but family and other things.

[Boojatta]

10. Wasn't he a biological father who dumped his offspring off at orphanages?

[Naturyl]

13. Nevermind

Ignore this post.

[closeupready]

20. I actually don't know.

I may be thinking of someone else.

[mitchum]

41. You're thinking of Rousseau

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. His illegitimate son was put up at an orphanage, to be sure

It was not an uncommon practice

[Oregone]

21. Life is about struggle nt

[Bob Dobbs]

4. Ayn Rand, neo-con goddess.

Justifier of the "free" market.

[Recursion]

25. I'll confess I'm getting irritated at seeing "neo-con" used for everyone on the right

Randians are not neoconservatives. Neoconservatives are socially liberal hawks: in broad strokes, people who supported the Civil Rights movement but opposed withdrawal from Vietnam and diplomatic relations with China (yes: the people who thought Nixon and Kissinger were too dovish, and lest we forget that was a surprising number of people from today's standpoint). Like so much of our political language, this term is mired in the boomers' fights and isn't terribly relevant today; the standard bearers for neoconservatism in the 1990's were Bill Clinton and Tony Blair.

I wish the Left were more clear on this: the war in Iraq does not represent a fundamental philosophical break from post-Soviet US policies, it represents a particularly blundering set of morons who completely misjudged an entire region; the ultimate neoconservative narrative has been in place through GHW Bush, Clinton, and GW Bush.

I'm not Bill-bashing here; I think he was a very good neoconservative President, and that neoconservativism has some very good points, particularly the ideas that liberal democracy is objectively better than other forms of government, that tariffs should not be instruments of international politics, and that balance-of-power diplomacy is riddled with inherent and dangerous flaws. As with all ideologies, of course, it can be taken too far, or in this administration's case way way way way way too far.

If there's a seminal post-Soviet neoconservative document, it's Fukuyama's "The End of History", which is well worth the read. Others have pointed to Strauss; but the Straussian or neo-neo-Platonist narrative is decidedly un-Randian: the state is elevated almost to the point of veneration.

Remember, Randians are ultimately anti-corporatist -- think Ron Paul. They don't like Microsoft any more than they do the ATF, and they are troubled by the corporate/government collusion that is infecting the world as much as we are, albeit from the exact opposite perspective.

[Bob Dobbs]

51. So cheny is "socially liberal"?

How is unregulated, capitalistic free marketism "anti corporate"?

Why, then, is busholini inc. referred to as neo-conservative?

Are you not conflating neo-LIBERAL with neo-conservative?

[Recursion]

52. Cheney is not a neoconservative

And "neoliberal" is what the rest of the world calls what we call "neoconservative".

[Bob Dobbs]

53. So who, in your estimation, IS a neo-con?

And why are you defending neo-conservatism?

[Runcible Spoon]

57. Cheney is a neoconservative espousing neoliberal economic theory

it's not complicated.

[Runcible Spoon]

56. ughh I don't have time to stamp out a full response, but neocons are primarily interested in economy

as in neo-liberal economy. Their main bag are trade agreements, building the military complex, and legislative/executive blank check/easement of judicial control over corporate power. Neocons dabble in social issues, but only to mobilize the base and keep the religious right happy. I honestly don't think any big time neocon gives a fuck about abortion or gay marriage as long as they can keep expanding the military industrial complex.

On Edit:and Yeah, Bill Clinton was neoliberal, not neocon. Free trade will be BY FAR the most significant and lasting legacy of his presidency, like it or not. Personally, I think his trade policies were/are disgusting.

[fascisthunter]

5. That By Definition is Sociopathic and the Definition of Greed

[Naturyl]

6. Hehe... nice poll

And it highlights my chief objection to Marxism - an overemphasis on materialism and "production" values. In their commitment to materialist ideology, Marx and Rand are united.

That said, it is beyond question that Marx attempts to identify and remedy what he sees as profound social problems, while Rand simply seeks to legitimize abject selfishness.

I am completely opposed to Rand and quite sympathetic to Marx - but ultimately, Marx drops the ball because he fails to recognize any role for trans-economic thinking.

Marx and Engels' idea was to turn Hegel on his head and in so doing to make his ideas relevant, but in the end, they failed to look deep enough and missed Hegel's actual point.

[billyoc]

8. I do not like money, money is the reason we fight.

-- Karl Marx

[haele]

9. "Atlasphere - the Ayn Rand dating service?"

The dating service for those who love her novels? Betcha it costs money, and is based in an after-hours prison call center... (Paypal accepted!) :lol:

Gez, some of the ads you see at the top of the page nowdays.
Oh, and I obviously can't speeel today.

Haele

[Naturyl]

11. Omg... you didn't make it up...

Was sure you were joking and then that horrible little voice that tells me to check these things spoke up...

Sure enough... there is an "Ayn Rand Dating Service." Just when you think you've seen it all...

[Boojatta]

14. If you had donated $10 during the fund drive, you would have gotten

the opportunity to put a sticky on the big board, and for a year you would see no Google ads on DU, be able to create polls like this one, and be able to use the DU search facilities to find active threads that you can participate in and archived threads of interest to you.

[Naturyl]

16. Did you ever think that maybe someone doesn't have an extra $10 to spare?

I can't speak for haele, but I know I don't.

The features offered for donators are quite good. This fact doesn't magically make everyone able to afford them.

[Boojatta]

18. Maybe I'll send in a check (by snail mail) on behalf of someone who needs it.

Anyone want a star for a year?

[Naturyl]

22. I'd rather you donate it to a more pressing cause.

Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can live without a star. If you've got $10 to spare, there are a lot of excellent charities that help starving children in Africa, for example. If anyone ever feels the urge to buy me a star, please send it there instead.

[Boojatta]

23. Starving children need parents and a good government.

What happened to the parents? What do governments in Africa consider to be a higher priority than feeding starving citizens who happen to also be children? I hear that in Zimbabwe there's a high priority on driving farmers off their land, looting what's there, and leaving the land uncultivated and the farm workers unemployed.

[Naturyl]

24. Indeed. but Zimbabwe isn't the only nation in Africa.

Even so, I agree. Good government is essential - and I'm sure there are organizations working for just that who need donations as well.

[Boojatta]

32. Many in Africa have too many millions of $$$ and not enough bank accounts to hold the $$$.

There are people always at work offering a quite generous commission just for a temporary parking space for millions of dollars. And they are so trusting of people. They believe that strangers won't steal any of the money. What are governments in Africa doing that is making the people of Africa afraid to open bank accounts?

[Naturyl]

34. Sorry, but...

It sounds like you are looking for reasons not to feel obligated to help. If you don't feel called in this area, that's fine - but I have heard these arguments many times. "The money doesn't get to them," "warlords intercept it," "the charities are inefficient," "there are issues of religious indoctrination," "it discourages systemic solutions," etc. Meanwhile, while all of this is debated ad nauseam, more people die.

Just calling it like I see it, and expecting unpleasant results. I'm not new to this particular debate by any means.

[Boojatta]

35. "I have heard these arguments many times"

You extracted those arguments not from anything I posted, but from your own mind. I presume that your mind includes memory capacity, but I would need a link to persuade me that "these arguments" are my arguments.

[Naturyl]

36. Ok then, a clarification.

Would "similar arguments" work for you?

If not, please show how yours are substantially different from those I cited.

[Boojatta]

37. I offered $10 for DU and to help give a star to someone for a year.

I didn't make any claim that places an onus on me to satisfy you.

Long before African slaves were purchased in Africa and shipped to Haiti, etc., Jews were being persecuted. Why don't you go to Israel, volunteer to serve in the military, and help defend the citizens of Israel, including Arabs who are citizens of Israel?

Alternatively, why not lobby the government of Israel to let Hamas control East Jerusalem every Sunday? Every Sunday, there could be public executions of GBLT people in Jerusalem and broadcast around the world. Soon popular support would develop for handing Jerusalem over to Hamas permanently and Hamas will ensure that the institution of marriage is protected from the grave threat that it faces.

[Naturyl]

40. Yep, that was the expected response.

Since I have pre-neutralized the various excuses, the next step is to confront me with "what are YOU doing to help?" The phases of this particular argument arrive more predictably than Amtrak.

Well, of course, that is MY business. You are 100% correct that there is no onus on you to satisfy me - and the reverse is equally true. I'm sure the issues you highlighted are worthy causes and I hope they get all the attention they deserve.

I've enjoyed this discussion. I'm not interested in proceeding to the next phase, which is more personal and less pleasant. Sincere thanks for your generous offer of a star to a deserving DUer and may you find an opportunity to help in that manner.

[Boojatta]

43. Ironically, you really do think that money is the most important thing.

It is always simply more money, but never any specific amount of money that will solve the great problem that is the most important problem in the world. Maybe they need French condoms more than they need American dollars.

[Naturyl]

46. I attempted to close this conversation...

For a reason. That reason being that I knew statements like "you really do think money is the most important thing" were about to start flying.... oh well.

Believe what you'll believe, then. I'm about as anti-materialistic as a person can get - but unfortunately (and believe me, I do hate it), anti-materialism won't put bread in anyone's mouth. I wish fervently that it would - but sadly that's something only money can do.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. It may be the most important thing to survival, but not to living.

[ngant17]

19. What part of Das Capital is this quoted by Marx?

Or in the Collected Works? Cite specifics.

I also take offense that you would group a shallow, rightwing ideologue in the same class as a brillant mind like Karl Marx. Ann Rynd was nothing but a boring apologist for capitalism.

Marx stated that capital was a social relationship.

"Freedom is the appreciation of necessity." -Karl Marx, philosopher

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." -"Me and Bobby McGee", originally written by Kris Kristofferson and Fred Foster, best known from Janis Joplin, 60's rock singer

[Boojatta]

27. "brilliant mind"

Marx also sought intellectual recreation on quite a different field, namely mathematics. Particularly in times of mental anguish and other sufferings he would seek consolation in mathematics, which exercised a soothing effect on him. Engels and Lafargue both contend that he made independent discoveries on this field, but this is beside the point here, and mathematicians who went through his MSS. after his death are reported not to have endorsed this opinion.

From:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/mehring/1918/marx/ch15.htm

The capitalist mathematicians are leaving a great invention unused because they don't want the people to benefit from it! Why don't you research Marx's contribution to math and explain the details to us so that we will be able to truly appreciate that brilliant mind?

[tkmorris]

26. False premise= meaningless poll

[Boojatta]

28. What premise do you have in mind?

Premise: You will cut off your own head
Conclusion: You will be dead

The premise is false. You're not going to cut off your own head. Therefore the statement "if you cut off your own head, then you will be dead" is meaningless. In other words, it's neither true nor false. Agreed?

Now, why should you let a completely meaningless statement such as "if you cut off your own head, then you will be dead" scare you away from performing the exciting experiment of cutting off your own head and finding out what it feels like?

[tkmorris]

33. I thought it might be LSD, but......

In my experience LSD, while highly hallucinegenic, does not offer visions of such detail and oddly internally consistent logic. I'm going with Psilocybin, or perhaps even Laudanum. It has a certain "Ancient Mariner" feel to it.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

29. I didn't even vote, but anyone who thinks money is the most important thing is life is NOT a Dem.

Period.

Go fuck yourself and visit FreeRepublic, not DU.


Money is nice, but it is NOT the most important thing in life.

[Boojatta]

48. Only two people voted "Yes", so there's not much reason for concern.

[Greyhound]

30. False premise. Neither one of them thought that. This is worthy of Limpballs. n/t

[DailyGrind51]

31. Marx and Rand had only one thing in common, atheism!

Marx was all about the welfare of the masses, whereas, Rand was all about individual self-interest.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. The statement is so ambiguous that it's worthless

Marx understood the structural importance of what he called a universal equivalent (i.e., money). But that doesn't mean he thought it was the "most important thing in life," at least as we usually use that phrase. For Marx, money is interesting not in its thingness, but in its abstraction, so even using the phrase "most important THING" is, strictly speaking, an incorrect expression of Marx's ideas.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. As a paraphrase of what Marx said, you FAIL.

What he said is the most determinant factor in history is the economy. VERY different thing.

[inthebrain]

44. The means of production.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. The MODE of production

Different modes employ different means, but it is the mode that makes the difference.

[Throd]

49. No, the most important thing in life is having a really snazzy car.

[NashVegas]

50. Under Great Protest, I Agree

I don't like it. I think it's a load of bullshit. But as I grow older I notice, more and more, that no good thing in this world seems to happen at all unless there's a parasite somewhere can make a wad off of it. Any good thing that gets introduced with no profit motive anywhere will be thrown aside for a similar product that someone can get rich selling or promoting.

[Greyhound]

54. But, neither one of them said, or believed, that. n/t

[Boojatta]

58. Kick to elicit more votes and comments.

[Boojatta]

59. Kick