Can we at least agree that a factually based political attck is NOT"Swiftboating" ?

[Stinky The Clown]

Can we? Please?

As I see it, to call a FACTUALLY based attack on Captain Combover "Swiftboating" is to pretty much completely defuse the attack. The whole world knows what Swiftboating is. They know that it was done to Kerry. They know it was based on lies. They know it was dirty politics.

Anyone who tries to do some swiftboating today will see far less success in the use of the tactic.

Yet, that same meme is alive and well right here in River City, where we *ALL* should know better.

(I am not suggesting we use this in a campaign ad, but) To call Captain Combover a crappy pilot silly and a waste of time, it *is* factually correct. Not a good campaign tactic.

What Wesley Clark said about his service not being a qualifier for the presidency is germaine, nuanced, defensible, viable, intellectually, and, most importantly, factually correct. What Clark did was NOT Swiftboating.

So when you ask if we should "Swiftboat" the former POW, the answer is actually no. If you **mean** should we go after him on the facts, no matter how distasteful such facts may be (to/for you) to bring up in public, that's an honest debate worth having.

I'm no campaign genius, but I am all for doing ***whatever*** it takes to win.

And I **would** Swiftboat if that seemed a viable tactic. My point in this post is, I don't think it is. I also think we all ought to at least agree to a definition.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. TV say bad.

Swiftboat bad.

All bad is swiftboat.

TV say so.

[madokie]

2. I agree with you

[baldguy]

3. Finally! Thank you for some sanity!

To think McCain's military record is off limits for discussion or criticism - simply because he served in the military - is ludicrous.

[H2O Man]

4. Definitely.

"Swiftboating" is, by definition, lying. It is distinct from telling the truth. It's the difference between shit and sugar.

[Virginia Dare]

5. I can agree with that..

at least in terms of what was done to John Kerry, but I think the meaning of the term has also been somewhat expanded to encompass any personal smear.

[annabanana]

34. That's what corpomedia is TRYING to do.

The radical right would like to do that too. Swiftboating is LYING... that's what makes it a particular kind of an attack ad...

[Warren Stupidity]

6. We must NEVAH attack McPow's Wah Recard!

Just because he was the less than bright son of an admiral who was the son of an admiral, just because he graduated 5th from the bottom of his class at Annapolis, just because a flyboy who crashed four planes who wasn't the son of an admiral would never have been sitting in the pilot seat of his fifth plane, just because his involvement in the Forrestal disaster remains murky at best, and just because exactly what sort of treatment he got in hanoi remains an open question, is no excuse for dishonoring his service in the last really fucked up war we put ourselves in.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADBF&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=forrestal+mccain&spell=1

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

[FreakinDJ]

8. I just want to know "Did McCain make 32 confession tapes"

I think any body can understand a person breaking under those conditions.

But at some point, at least when you are healed from your injuries, you pull your self together and stand up to your oppressors and say "No more"

[cliffordu]

20. ROFL

[NewJeffCT]

28. McCain wasn't tortured, though, it was

enhanced interrogation, according to Alberto Gonzalez, Donny Rumsfeld, etc.

[FatDave]

32. Haven't you heard? We're not allowed to discuss that.

It's completely off limits. It's been decided by people with superior morals. And if you use logic, they won't hesitate to start slinging insults. We can't handle the truth.

[KharmaTrain]

7. He's Making A Mockery Of All Those Who Served...

His playing the POW card is cheapening the pilght of so many others who suffered far longer and far worse than he did. It's degrading both their service and the good will many of us have generated toward these people. This is especially the case as he's voted against veterans benefits. Hasn't the batard ever taken a walk to that Vietnam memorial in the Mall? Or does he go over there and piss on it.

By his mindless support of Iraq and the other repugnican misadventures, he supports the destruction of the military and creating even more victims...and then turning his rich-ass back on them.

The problem isn't "swiftboating" this goon...no one is trying to discount his service. But it's time to call bullshit on his hiding behind that captivity as some kind of justification for all his lack of character, gaffes and corruption. It degrades the service of the many who served in Vietnam (people I know and have tremendous respect) who came back from that ugly war and was ignored (primarily by repugnicans) and haven't had the opportunity to exploit their service like he has.

The "swiftboating" of Senator Kerry were deliberate lies about his service...there aren't any lies being played out here on Gramps. If anything, Democrats are going out of their way to point out his wreckless service record...but when his campaign keeps pulling it the POW card, it has to be taken down...and I know many veterans who feel that way...they're getting pissed at his playing martyr.

[RB TexLa]

9. I agree, now can we actually get on with the swiftboating of the bastard?

[MiniMe]

10. I agree, thanks for saying it more clearly than I have

We don't need to swiftboat McCain, the truth is damaging enough. And running a clean campaign doesn't mean that you can't fight back, and that you can't defend youself imho, it means that you don't lie while you are fighting back.

The swiftboating tactic used against Kerry PO'd me to no end, not because of the attack but because it was based on lies. It was wrong to do then, and it is wrong to do to McCain now.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Personally, in a campaign, right or wrong doesn't matter to me.

Winning matters. Whatever it takes.

My essential point is that actual swiftboating (lies) is a losing tactic since it was so grandly overplayed against Kerry. Actually, quite like the impeachment of Clinton. Both served to inoculate the repubicans against their OWN TACTIC.

But back to right or wrong ........ while I see swiftbaoting as a tactic bound to be a loser, if it *would* work, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[MiniMe]

21. Sorry, I can't agree with a win at all costs approach

Not that this is on the same scale, but look at the controversy over the Chinese female gymnasts that has been going on here the last week. The Chinese took the winning at any cost attitude. By the scores, the girls deserved to win. They were good. However, the rule that the girls be 16 to compete was put in for a reason, and it was for the protection of the girls. The girls know how old they are, they are being taught that the ends justify the means, a terrible lesson.

Chimpy uses the same tactic to try to justify Iraq, the fact that Saddam was not a good man was not a reason to invade a sovereign country.

This is the most important election of my lifetime, especially for the survival of the US, the constitution, and the world. But I can't go along with using lies to get there. What is causing a huge amount of outrage among the dems right now in reference to Chimpy? The fact that he lied to the american people. Like I said, attack away, there is plenty out there to attack with. But don't lie about it.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. I bet that's why you always turn down my dinner invitations ...........

Lying us into Iraq is VERY different from saying that Captain Combover (pick a lie, any lie ...... let's say: ) gave hand jobs to the North Vietnamese guards while he was in prison.

I'm not advocating living my life by lying. I'm not advocating governing by lying.

I **AM** advocating doing what it takes to win this election. I **AM** advocating punking them much as they have punked us for the last how many years. You and I both know fucking-A well they're gunna pull some dirty shit. I say we need to be ready for that and more than willing - EAGER - to do it to them **before** they do it to us.

Yeah ...... I know ...... lies are lies.

Whatever.

(edit to add a space after a colon so as to avoid the system showing it as (an inappropriate) smiley face)

[MiniMe]

23. What time should I be there?

:hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

26. 7.30 .... we're eatin' on the deck, so shortz are okay.

:hi:

(n/s: thanks for being a good sport!)

((n/s = no snark))

[MiniMe]

27. Cool, can I bring the dogs?

[MiniMe]

29. And

I have no gripes with you, just disagree about the lying. That is a mature and reasonable discussion to have. You know how the reich wing spin machine works. They never said that Dan Rather was wrong about Bush's service, they just attacked Rather on a miniscule point that had nothing to do with the veracity of the story. IMHO, if Obama starts up a lie, it will be 10 times worse.

[creeksneakers2]

33. It doesn't work for us like it works to them

Democrats and liberals see government as a sacred trust that we all take part in. Politics is how we decide. Lying or using dirty tactics hurts us all, because it obscures the clarity of choice that would lead us to the best decisions for all of us.

Republicans and conservatives see government and politics as nothing more than a big scam to steal their hard earned money. If they win by lying that's no different to them than concealing a valuable item while being robbed. Lying is a clever way to defeat the evil rip offs. Notice how Freepers laugh when they do it and when they see the lies frustrating liberals.

So no matter who lies, liberals don't like it and will punish the liar, even if its one of their own. Therefore, Liberals can't get away with it. Conservatives don't punish their own so they can get away with it.

Another set back for liberals is that if you want the government to do things you have to keep the trust of the people who pay in the tax dollars. If the taxpayers see dishonesty they will no longer want to take part in the government endeavor. Then the conservatives win.

[verges]

16. Fight back HELL!

That implies a defensive posture. Be aggressive. Blast away with the facts!

[MiniMe]

18. I'll go along with that

[uppityperson]

12. Yes. "swiftboating" implies lies. nt

[Canuckistanian]

13. Yes, definitely. "Swiftboating" = smearing based on LIES

It's the ONLY definition I was aware of.

[verges]

14. K/R

I agree 100%

[PerpetuallyDazed]

15. Is it considered "swiftboating" when one takes issue with his POW story?

I'm referring to his fellow POW Phillip Butler and his article from military.com : http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

[MiniMe]

24. If the story is true, no

It would help if he had told the story in the past instead of just bringing it up now. But the Swiftboat Liars were proven to be lying, some of them never even knew Kerry.

[eshfemme]

17. Yes definitely. Ironically, the Republicans and MSM are now distorting the meaning of the term

to cover up for valid criticisms of McCain's record.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. No irony there at all ........

... they know - as I stated in the OP - that 'swiftboating' will be seen as nasty, dirty, and lies. So, if one doesn't liek what is being said about one self, one charges the sayer with swiftboating.

This is EXACTLY the logic as to how the repubs inoculated themselves against impeachment. The made their own impeachment of Clinton a farce. And not a near farce or a sorta farce. A HIGH farce. An over the top farce. Thusly ensuring that Pelosi (or whoever is in that seat) gets cold sweaty palms and has feet of clay.

They're WAY smarter than we are ..... or not.

I think not. I just think we, as a group, lack the balls to do what they do.

(No doubt someone will take issue with my use of the word 'balls' .... to them a premptive "bite me' ..... if you're pissed, address the main point of this thread.)

[cliffordu]

19. Well said. K&R

[AuntPatsy]

30. Unlike the repukes needing to, we have no need to lie, the facts speak for themselves.

the problem I see with the swift boating is that in retrospect like many do here, the first time someone uses that tactic and gets caught they lose all credibility and they are bound to be distrusted in the future even if they attempt to state something factual.

as far as people believing the lies they love to spew, I have come to the conclusion that the people against the Dem's for whatever reasons they might possess would rather believe the lies even if they know they are lies. I have met with such resistance in attempting to get some people to listen to the facts and attempt to prove it, they have no wish to know the truth sad as that is.

I am beginning to believe that some people are just so filled with hate, and racism hidden in a cloak of supposed spiritualistic beliefs that they latch onto the lies almost with glee and will argue the validity of the lies spewed by the GOP simply because of their inner mental deficiencies and I do believe most of them to have a type of mental illness that disallows them to contain true compassion and caring for all humanity, their compassion and caring is so selective but to them, the little they do possess for the small group they shower such on is enough for them to live with.

I really wish sometimes that they will have to answer for how they have lived their lives after they die, it would be so fitting if they were made to watch themselves as if in playback and forced to understand just how wrong they were and they should have to make amends somehow, someway....

[malaise]

31. I agree 100% n/t

[Kurovski]

35. K&R. (nt)

[bertman]

36. Great point, Husb2.

I can hardly wait for the ad reminding everyone that Teresa Heinz Kerry opened up all of her tax records during the '04 Presidential race. So why is Cindy hiding hers?

[Kurovski]

37. Kick. (nt)

[farmboxer]

38. All Dems need to do is tell the truth, Repubs have to lie!

Yes, Dems need only tell the truth, use the facts, Repubs have to lie through their teeth. Repubs can't run on the issues, they have to lie as always. Dems have to fight back with the truth immediately! Voting record of McCain tells it all, not to mention all the other crap.

The truth to a Republican is like a cross to a vampire.

[Hekate]

39. KnR, Stinky. nt