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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:43 AM
Original message
FBI's "Smoking Gun" Against Ivins Evaporates
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 09:42 AM by kpete
FBI's "Smoking Gun" Against Ivins Evaporates
The Anthrax Case Sux
By: emptywheel Thursday August 14, 2008 5:44 am

Notice this time they're not going to tell us what time Ivins went back to the lab, perhaps because they want their theory to hold up through the weekend. If it was late at night, it would introduce the same problems of timing, as presumably Ivins was back at the office at 7:30 AM the next morning, as per usual. And there's one more critical detail: Ivins did not enter Suite B3 when he returned to the office that night. As the original search warrant attachment laid out,
http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/07-524-M-01%20attachmen...

The investigation examined Dr. Ivins's laboratory activity immediately before and after the window of opportunity for the mailing of the Post and Brokaw letters to New York which began at 5:00 p.m. Monday, September 17,200 1 and ended at noon on Tuesday, September 18, 2001. Beginning on Friday, September 14, Dr. Ivins worked the following three consecutive evening shifts prior to the mailings with time spent in Suite B3:


Friday, September 14, 8:54 p.m. to 12:22 a.m., 2 hours 15 minutes

Saturday, September 15, 8:05 p.m. to 11:59 p.m., 2 hours 15 minutes

Sunday, September 16, 6:38 p.m. to 9:52 p.m., 2 hours 15 minutes

After September 16, Dr. Ivins did not enter Suite B3 in the evening again until September 25.


As I understand it, the attachment considers anything after 4:45 to be evening work, and we know that Ivins was in an appointment at that point, so his brief return to the office must have been an evening visit. This does not, by itself, doom their new theory. After all, Ivins was caught that December cleaning his office space, not B3, so it's possible he just stored the anthrax outside of B3 after he cultured it, if in fact he did culture it. But that would raise the question of why the anthrax didn't show up in sampling of his office, and how and where it was stored during the day of September 17 when Ivins was not in his office.

.........................

I'm most amused by the way they find evidence, claim it's significant, then discard it entirely once their theory falls apart. Just last week, the fact that Ivins had taken leave for the entire day before the anthrax was mailed was another smoking gun, proof that he had done the deed. But now that we DFHs have proved he couldn't have been mailing the anthrax at that time, then that piece of evidence is discarded entirely. It seems they don't want to entertain the possibility he was doing something else--perhaps meeting with someone, but not driving to Princeton. Similarly, lie detector tests were critical, until they discovered their main culprit passed his.

In other words, they're still making it up as they go along, and they still don't have a solid case that Ivins was the sole culprit.

more at:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/shorter-wa...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great post! Don't know why....
there aren't more recs but here's mine. kpete, :yourock: !!
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. The FBI hounded a man to death. The WRONG man.
Ivins may have been a disturbed man, but there's no way he could have done the anthrax killings.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. they do hound people
hoping for death in some cases.

either the FBI or some other outsourced creeps, sometimes with the full knowledge of media, local and otherwise.

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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Every department in our government
has been polluted during the last 7-1/2 years. There is so much trash to clean up after Obama wins in November it will take him at least 8 years to do it.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm surprised they're always caught flat-footed with their stories. However, they
do hold the trump card: Ivins is dead, and can't fight for himself.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. A very correct, but very sad point
You make.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. Then there's the question of the copier
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 10:20 AM by Mabus
I was looking at old articles and read in numerous articles that the FBI found the copier used to copy the anthrax letters and that the copier was publicly accessible. I mentioned it to a few other DU'ers and suffragette came up with a good example of the copier being mentioned and showing it was reported and/or known. From 2002, The American Prospect (excerpted below):

Identifying the lab from which the anthrax in the letters originated will supply one major piece of the puzzle. But investigators point out that this information is far from sufficient. Indeed, the classic criminal investigator's questions -- who had not just the weapon, but the motive and the opportunity? -- will most likely be addressed by those gumshoe special agents out in the field questioning people, gathering testimony, and testing hypotheses. Already investigators have identified the Xerox machine used to photocopy the letters sent to Democratic senators, NBC, and the New York Post last fall, a source close to the investigation said. The machine is "publicly accessible" and is in New Jersey, but in what town or what facility was not disclosed.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_enemy_w...



So, if they know which copier was used why haven't tied Ivins to it or its location? Wouldn't that help the FBI's case? Or is it not being mentioned because they weren't able to tie Ivins to it?

:shrug:

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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Good memory and good catch by suffragette
You would have thought that in dusting down the copier the FBI could have found prints or DNA evidence linking Ivins to the location. :shrug:
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. At the very least, was it on his way to the mail box
or was it in another part of the state that doesn't fit their story that Ivins left work that morning and mailed the letters.

If it is "publicly accessible" is it in a place that has limited hours and limited access to the general public? Was it near a university or private company doing anthrax research? I can say that a copier is "publicly accessible" and mean that it is available to a limited number of users, like the users of an office or I could mean a Kinko's. It's not like there was a copy machine sitting on a corner that anyone could walk up to and use. It was located in a building somewhere. All I want to know is if it is near a place where Ivins had been seen or was likely to go? Is there other evidence, like a credit card purchase or a surveillance tape, that puts in the area?

It's just weird how many little details like this weren't used by the FBI in their search warrant affidavit. Imagine how much more incriminating their affidavits would have been if they included passages like:

"The FBI identified the location of the copy machine used to make the letters included in the anthrax-laced letters. That copy machine is on the route that Ivins would have taken to get to the mailbox in Princeton."

Or, "the copy machine that was found to have been the source for the letters included in the anthrax-laced letters was found a block from the mailbox and was publicly accessible on a day that Ivins took off from work and allegedly mailed the letters."

Or "Ivins was often seen in the area near where the copy machine was located."

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. It was probably a copy machine near Hatfill's home, lol.
I swear, it must be something like that.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You know me
Before I posted what I did, I ran a search on "Hatfill photocopier FBI" and several variations thereof. I got some hits but nothing that mentioned the FBI connecting the Xerox to Hatfill.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Mabus: why wasn't there another attack between 10/06 and 10/26
or so, when the Patriot Act was signed? Of the fake motives attributed to Ivins, that was the only time sensitive one that could be influenced. The interval between the first and second one is about two weeks. Why not a third attack -- nothing had changed.

:shrug:
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. I can think of several reasons
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 05:10 PM by Mabus
It took a while to cultivate a new batch. It also takes a while for anthrax to work. If you recall, the first death attributed to anthrax was Oct. 5. Until then, no one - except the person or people responsible for sending the letters - knew about them.

I could also go really :tinfoilhat: and point out that the Office of Homeland Security was created by an EO signed by Bush on Oct. 8. What better time for another round of attacks from an unknown (and possibly foreign) perp. Remember, we were supposed to be scared then.


For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 8, 2001


Gov. Ridge Sworn-In to Lead Homeland Security
The East Room

10:53 A.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Please be seated. Thank you all. Welcome to the White House. Today I signed an executive order creating a new Homeland Security Office, charged with strengthening America's protections against terrorism. And I've picked a really good man to lead that office. (Applause.) In case you hadn't figured it out, it's Tom Ridge. (Laughter.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/2001100...




edited to add:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
November 3, 2001

Radio Address by the President to the Nation

We do not yet know who sent the anthrax -- whether it was the same terrorists who committed the attacks on September the 11th, or whether it was the -- other international or domestic terrorists. We do know that anyone who would try to infect other people with anthrax is guilty of an act of terror. We will solve these crimes, and we will punish those responsible. As we learn more about these anthrax attacks, the government will share the confirmed and credible information we have with you. I'm proud of our citizens' calm and reasoned response to this ongoing terrorist attack.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/2001110...


And don't forget that one of the things that the OHS sought to do was to combine intelligence agencies for intelligence for terrorist attacks? Is this way the investigation was so bungled?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. We don't know the whole first /second batch was gone and
if no one knew about the attacks, that's just more of a green light for the attacker to keep going before anyone put the information together. Iirc, the window for the second attack doesn't close until 10/9.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. You are correct.
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 05:56 PM by Mabus
There was no mail pick-up on Monday because it was a federal holiday (Columbus Day).

The time frame began for the letters to have been mailed - according to the documents released - at 3 p.m., Saturday, October 6 and ended at noon, Tuesday, October 9th. Ivins was in the lab on Oct. 5 (Friday) and Saturday morning . According to the docs, Ivins was there from 7:45 p.m. until 12:43 a.m. Presumably he was at work on Tuesday and he was there again, Tuesday, Oct. 9 (no times given) for fifteen minutes.

From this timeframe, we are to assume that Ivins took the anthrax itself (or prepared the letters in the lab) and then left the lab at a quarter until one. That means that Ivins had the letters in his possession for 14 hours and 15 minutes. That's when the second window of opportunity opens for the second batch to have been mailed.

source for the above time information is http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/08-430SWAffidavit07524.... top of page nine. I'm sure, of all people, that you are familiar with this document and page 8. ;)

edited to correct "11" to "14".

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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. If Ivans drove to NJ and copied the letters there
How did he put the anthrax in the letters without infecting himself?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The FBI would say he had been vaccinated, which is true.
But the question is, how would he do it without leaving trace material all over?
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Very carefully
First off, like sfexpat2000 says, he'd had a vaccination. Otherwise, I can think of at least three ways:
1) He already had the anthrax in the envelopes. He put the letters in after he got them copied, then taped the envelopes were taped shut and mailed right away.
2) He copied the letters somewhere in NJ and took them back to wherever the anthrax, the envelopes were and the tape were. He then drove back to NJ and mailed them.
3) He copied the letters in NJ and had to wait until the anthrax was ready. Then the anthrax was put into the envelopes, taped shut and then driven back to NJ and mailed.

It seems like he'd want to put the anthrax letters together in a controlled area. I mean it isn't something that you'd undertake on a street corner. That was part of the reason that the FBI mentions Ivins' unexplained time in the lab in their evidence. I mean, unexplained times with no one else there would have allowed him time to work at night, put everything up and back in order


The thing that strikes me about all of this is that whomever did it was very careful about somethings and very sloppy about others. For example, you'd think that Ivins, as a scientist who works with spores, would be a little more careful about leaving trace evidence like fibers on the tape. He was careful enough to cultivate anthrax and purify it to varying degrees; he was careful enough to give them originals because it would leave clues about the type of paper, what writing instrument he used, and other clues like fingerprints; he was careful enough to buy generic envelopes that would be hard to trace and he was careful not to get his fingerprints on anything but he didn't think about stuff like how scotch tape might catch minute, tale-tell fibers that could be traced back to him or that the writing on the envelopes might leave behind clues as to what kind of pen he used and gave them a better handwriting sample than the letters did.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. This is completely subjective so, bear with me for a sec.
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 06:54 PM by sfexpat2000
Ivins seems to me to be a lot like my ex: he does fine in his habitat but once out of there, not so fine.

Managing the mental health issues he had was pretty much a second full time job. And "managing" is the word. You try to manage yoursef and do your job and keep going.

People in that situation don't seek out new situations to test their skill against. :shrug:

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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. And part of his management was therapy
The one thing that I can absolutely agree with from the FBI information is that Ivins struggled with some long term mental health problems. From what I remember, Ivins was hospitalized three times this year for mental health issues and he was twice found unconscious and was hospitalized.

So, you add to the increased stress he felt when the FBI cleared Hatfill and zeroed in on him (and, according to one article printed earlier this year, three others) pretty hard and often - including accusing him in a mall! - to his pre-existing mental problems and there's no wonder he was acting squirrelly at the end and feeling like people were out to get him. Add to this mix various medications, the vaccines he had to take for his job and alcohol and, overall, he was actually managing pretty well. So was his family.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Right. And when you have both hands that full
you don't dream up new, more stressful activities to engage in. We know how he blew off steam. He dramk vodka. He wrote to people, called them, we don't know what kind of support he had at home.

But we do know that he had good insight into his situation and that he was in a holding pattern. He didn't "go dark" or fail to communicate to his peers in the way you might expect a mass murderer to do before making a gesture. Bruce Ivins didn't do that. :shrug:
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
62. It was publicly solicited
for people in those areas at those times to come forward etc. They are redrawing the entire investigation
to point to their new target and it is no better and somewhat worse than the original investigation. There might never have been an investigation had not private scientists gone public and pointed the finger at Fort Dietrich in the first place at the very least because Cheney would want it suppressed for his foreign terrorism strategy.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. I wouldn't expect
prints or dna evidence to be found on a publicly accessible photocopier. To much time and opportunity for fingerprints to be overprinted with other people's prints, and there wouldn't be enough dna to sample, even with today's capabilities.

However, the thought of dna does bring up a point. What about the envelopes the letters were mailed in? I'm not sure about 7 years ago, but today it's possible to obtain enough dna from the saliva on a postage stamp to test for it.

Of course, someone could simply wet the stamps with a damp sponge. But I don't think testing techniques were advanced enough back then for stamp saliva to be a concern, although I could be mistaken on that.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Good points. -nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. Envelopes were pre-franked. n/t
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. The envelopes were taped
and the postage was pre-printed on the envelope.

I wouldn't expect for them to get usable prints or DNA from a public copier either. However, you'd think the location of the copy machine would be an important piece of the puzzle. Was it located in a Princeton library that students are more likely to use it, a Kinko's in Newark or a grocery store in Seacaucus?

Think about it, if Ivins was spending his days at work and popping in and out of the lab to check on his experiments, when did he have time to drive to New Jersey and make copies of the letters? Did he make two drives, one for each letter, or did he copy both letters at the same time? Did he write the letters, take them to New Jersey to copy them and then bring them back to prepare the envelopes? Did he prepare the envelopes and then make the copies on his way to mailing them? No matter how you look at it, at some point, the FBI would have to connect Ivins to the copier. Otherwise, there is no case.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. I fear this story will die and everybody will just take the FBI's version at face value.
It's pretty much inevitable and what the FBI is banking on.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. There doesn't seem to be an alternative any more.
What are we going to do? Ivins wasn't connected at Hatfill was.
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stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. "they're still making it up as they go along"
Sure looks like that, doesn't it.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. playing the role of Lee Hamilton, Tom Daschle has seen all he needs to see.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. I KNEW there was something stinky about their case against Ivins
These fucks are trying to tie this up with a pretty bow before the end of the Bush maladministration. But the bow keeps unraveling.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. The anthrax mailings were probably another "Wag the Dog" move by BushCo and the admin HAD
to find someone to blame for it, so the truth would not come out.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. The FBI does rime investigation like Creationists do biological research--
and, for that matter, like the Bushies do environmental science--they start with a theory & then tailor "facts" to fit it.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match
Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match

Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match
Strands From Mailbox in Princeton Are Not From Ivins, Investigators Say

By Carrie Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 14, 2008; A02



Federal investigators probing the deadly 2001 anthrax attacks recovered samples of human hair from a mailbox in Princeton, N.J., but the strands did not match the lead suspect in the case, according to sources briefed on the probe.

FBI agents and U.S. Postal Service inspectors analyzed the data in an effort to place Fort Detrick, Md., scientist Bruce E. Ivins at the mailbox from which bacteria-laden letters were sent to Senate offices and media organizations, the sources said.

The hair sample is one of many pieces of evidence over which researchers continue to puzzle in the case, which ended after Ivins committed suicide July 29 as prosecutors prepared to seek his indictment.

Authorities released sworn statements and search warrants last week at a news conference in which they asserted that Ivins was their sole suspect. But the materials have not dampened speculation about the merits of the investigative findings and the government's aggressive pursuit of Ivins, a 62-year-old anthrax vaccine researcher. Conspiracy theories have flourished since the 2001 attacks, which killed five people and sickened 17 others.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. Almost seven years, and they're still making it up as they go along.
The problem with this case is that if I'm right about it, nobody wants to tell the truth because the anthrax mailings themselves were a strong message about that subject: tell the truth and the Bush Administration will kill you. The Valerie Plame Wilson burning was the same damned thing--lives were certainly endangered if not lost--but they at least managed to pin that one on a good Nazi who won't talk. Who else was set up as warnings to others? Pat Tillman? David Kelly?

Frankly, while I'm glad to see the attempted injustice unravel before our eyes, it also frightens me. We're not going to get our country back if these people won't willingly leave. They're evil enough to murder, steal elections, start wars on false pretenses, and who knows what else, but they're also stupid enough to fuck up every damned snow job they've tried to lay on us.

Somehow, we've got to navigate a high-profile reformist candidate to victory without the obvious happening to him, then get these gangsters to walk away from everything they've always wanted, and then we have to go back out there and attempt to try and convict literally hundreds of Bush Administration criminals so that they never have the chance to come back. And all they have to do is start murdering people again to keep their jobs, their loot, and their power.

I know we can do it, somehow. But hell if I know how we're going to pull it off.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Dr. Ivins said he was in the lab late because things were not good at home.
The FBI is unsatisfied with this explanation and yet, on p. 11 of the search warrant, the signor attests that

"The investigation has shown that in 2000 and through the mailings in 2001, Dr. Ivins had mental health issues. Dr. Ivins' mental health issues came to the attention of investigators while reviewing emails of USAMRID reaearchers. Through the emails it was determined that Dr. Ivins was undergoing significant stress in both his home and work life."

This is another instance of FBI having it both ways. Was Bruce Ivins stressed out at home or not? FBI says yes in their own search warrant. :shrug:
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Unfortunately they didn't completely screw up
Ivins is still DEAD.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'm curious about the fascination at DU with proving Ivins's innocence.
We're all skeptical about the FBI's obsession with proving that someone in his lab is the guilty party because of their past error. But, knowing that the anthrax in question very likely originated from that lab, isn't it quite possible that Ivins is, indeed, guilty?

Please don't repeat the holes in the FBI's case -- I've read all of it. I'm just fascinated why it is that DU is so convinced that he couldn't possibly have done it.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's not that he couldn't have done it. It's that they've "closed the case"
and they're still hunting around for evidence to make a case. Oh, and because they hounded him to death. Even if he was guilty, that isn't the way we do things -- is it?

Is "very likely" really good enough? Steve Hatfill was "very likely", too.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. It is the fact that, as with Hatfill, the claims about Ivins don't add up -
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 03:07 PM by NCevilDUer
and yet, the anthrax DID come from that lab.

Then, Ivins conveniently committing suicide.

If it looks like a government black ops job and coverup, smells like a government black ops job and coverup, and feels like a government black ops job and coverup, then it probably IS a government black ops job and coverup.

I think he was suicided so he could not defend himself against specific charges.

There STILL is no rational explanation of why HE would have chosen those particular targets.

EDITED: to get Hatfill's name correct.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Even with a deceased defendent, they can't make a case.
That all by itself should be of concern -- unless who mailed that anthrax and killed those people doesn't really matter. :shrug:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. While it's not totally impossible to prove a negative..
It's a difficult thing to do, so "proving" Ivins didn't do it may not be possible.

Keep in mind that the FBI was just as sure that Hatfill did it, and then ended up paying him $5 million (?) for defamation.

There are a lot of us here on DU that are convinced the bushies were connected with the anthrax attacks somehow, that's why the effort is taking place to shoot holes in the FBI's case against Ivins.

The FBI's track record in high profile, politically sensitive cases is abysmal.

Think Richard Jewell.

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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Anything is possible and this type of thing could happen to any of us
and I'm not convinced that he wasn't involved or knew what was going on. I'm one of that has been keeping an eye on this story and the more that comes out, the more it doesn't make complete sense.

I'm also interested in this story because it demonstrates how easily the FBI could do the same thing to any of us. Seriously, if they went through my computer they'd find stuff like a downloaded Army Psy-Ops manual (got the link from DU) and patents of things like a tranquilizer bracelet (I do patent research as my day job). If they wanted to pin something on me, I'm more than ripe for the pickings. I'm disgruntled at my government. I've written letters to my elected official and local newspapers. I've said somethings online that could easily be misconstrued or twisted to look very menacing or having people questioning my sanity. There are times when I'm very extroverted and there are times that I'm very introverted.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #41
64. It certainly could!
I too have said, and done, some things that could make me suspect. I have longstanding depression and anxiety disorder issues...have been in therapy for many years because of those issues.

I like True Crime stories and am fascinated by the criminal mind

I don't have any convictions, but back in 1980 I was involved in an assault case in which both sides dropped charges (mutual assault)

And I have a social anxiety disorder, which means I'm a bit of a "loner".


Pick a crime....work backwards and add various elements of behavior to a profile (with perhaps a touch of exaggeration) and voila...I would be a prime suspect.

This scares me

We are all at risk, no matter who we are...
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. If they wanted to, they could go after almost any of us
and with the Anti-Terrorism laws being what they are, they could build a pretty good case on any of us.

If they wanted to go after me, they'd have a lot of ammo based on the websites I've visited, things I've printed out, things I've posted as well as events that I've attended. Add in that that I've had therapy off and on for years and viola, I'm a terrorist in the making.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. All I have seen is DUers questioning the 'lone gunman' theory.
:shrug:





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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Really? I guess I'm unfortunate enough to have missed every one of those posts.
Everything I read is pushing hard that Ivins was set up.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. I can't find any scientist/expert not connected to FBI that believes
he had the means to do this. Can you?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Ken Alibek, who is perhaps the top weaponized anthrax expert...

and who has close ties to companies involved with related CIA and DIA programs. He began modifying his story in 2002 in order to support theories that any lab could have produced the mailed anthrax - most likely an Al Qaeda group. If you look closely, his statements are often discredited by other experts in the field.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Ivans as the scapegoat does not preclude the involvement of additional assassins,
nor does it mean he is "innocent."

"Everything I read is pushing hard that Ivins was set up." - Yes, as the scapegoat. It sure seems that way to me according to the shoddy case presented by the FBI.

Nevertheless, who on DU is claiming he is "innocent?" Those who do must have some important facts they need to share here and with the FBI.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Yeah, someone needs to remind the FBI the the presumption of innocence
is not limited to Bush Justice Department appointees. :evilgrin:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. The FBI's role is not to presume innocence.
Someone is guilty, and they are looking for the person or persons responsible.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Are those mutually exclusive? FBI doesn't operate in a vacuum
or, they shouldn't, but within the framework of the law.

Of course, we're talking about the Bush Justice Department.

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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. Your post has to be the most self-contradictory I've seen at DU.
You believe he is a scapegoat and the case presented by the FBI is shoddy, and you agree that a lot of concerned posters at DU agree with you, but you don't believe that any of these posters think he's innocent or they'd be sharing their information with the FBI.

okey dokey


:crazy:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. No 'contradictions' were presented - you just did not comprehend for some reason.
The run-on sentence above makes it difficult to assess how you have come to your conclusion, but it definitely belies a problem.

Good day. :hi:



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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Your grammatical analytical skills, unfortunately, are not your weakest point.
Edited on Fri Aug-15-08 02:11 PM by Buzz Clik
And you, too, have a good one.

:eyes:
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. There is a range
but most of it is looking at the documents and comparing them to other information that is known or has been reported to the media. For example, sfexpat2000 noticed that the timeframe for mailing the first letters didn't match a time when Ivins could have done it. She compared the information that the media was repeating (and changing in their stories) and what the documents said. According to the documents released, the perp's timeframe for mailing the letter in Princeton, NJ started after Ivins was accounted for at Ft. Detrick.

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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. it's not that he couldn't have done it...
it's that

1. he couldn't have done it alone. he didn't have the know-how and the facility he worked at didn't have the technology to process the anthrax into the form it was sent.

2. there is no proof that he did it. there is at least as much, if not more, circumstantial evidence that he didn't and couldn't have done it as there is that he that he did.

3. the facts as presented don't add up. and the more people here investigate, the more questions arise.

4. and yet, they want to close the case, and leave him as the sole culprit. and leave whoever else was responsible off the hook.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. As much as I agree with you, keep this in mind:
DU has the biggest collection of conspiracy theorists on the planet. For these people, everything bad that happens involves black helicopters, shadowy figures and unstoppable power. Ted Kasczinski is innocent, and so are Sirhan Sirhan and Lee Oswald.

It's gotten to the point that when I read something in that vein at DU, I assume that it is wrong.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. It doesn't matter if the whole forum is done in Post-Modern Tinfoil.
There are plenty of people who are asking questions about this case, like Rush Holt and Senator Grassley and most experts that don't get government checks. After DU figured out that last week's story was crap, the FBI came up with this week's story. That happened. That's not a rumor on the tubes. :shrug:


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Ennealogic Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
30. Ivins - Sole Culprit Not Possible
Here's what the FBI cannot show about Dr. Bruce Ivins:
  1. That he had the knowledge of how to make the anthrax used (extremely pure, extremely tiny particles, "weaponized" with polyglass type coating and electrostatic charges so that it basically "floated" out of the envelope)
  2. That he had access to equipment needed to make anthrax used (requires a LOT more than the "lyophilizer" that is standard equipment in any bio-science lab)
  3. That he had the opportunity to make the anthrax used (per his co-workers, the process would take weeks if not months, not something that would have gone unnoticed, even if he could have made it)
  4. That he had the opportunity to drive the 320 mile round trip on days anthrax was mailed (you can't drive 7-8 hours round trip overnight and show up for work the next day on time, which is what the FBI says today -- they must've read the blogs that pointed out their original supposition was bogus, which was that Ivins made the trip during admin leave hours on 9-17-2001, but the postmark of 9-18 made that impossible)
  5. That he failed a polygraph (Ivins was one of the first set of people screened, and assisted the FBI in their investigation for years after passing this screening)
  6. That his handwriting matched the letters (they say since the author used block letters, they were stumped and couldn't match handwriting.. hahaha)
  7. That his psychological profile matched that of their suspect (at worst, Ivins was a suicidal paranoid type but what the FBI was profiling was a homicidal sociopath)
  8. That he had a supportable motive for doing it (sending anthrax letters near a sorority storage building because he had an obsession for it? targeting Democratic Senators because he was pro-life and they weren't? that doesn't explain the letters to media!? insuring royalties from vaccine patent which only netted maybe 2K a year? All BS!)


They are making it up as they go along.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Welcome to DU, Ennealogic.
Very good points, all. And, he didn't fail two polygraphs. :)
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Response to Original message
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. and no body to try in court, how convenient--friggin bunglers
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. Follow-up on seizure of library computers
Recall that the FBI seized computers from Frederick library and the librarian let them, even though they had no search warrant.
http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display....


Found an update from 8/8/08 that notes that the FBI later got a warrant (seems they decided they needed it to actually look at the contents of the hard drive).

http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA6585613.html?de...

Apparently they released the affidavits the day after the huge document dump.

Interesting that I still haven't seen anything concrete about what they found.

What I have seen are what the FBI agents noted/alleged as reasons for their suspicion:
According to the affidavits (via Frederick News-Post: 1, 2) supporting the requests for warrants, filed in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, FBI Special Agent Marlo Arredondo said that on July 24, FBI agents tracking Ivins watched him for 90 minutes while he used two computers at the C. Burr Artz Public Library. While using the computers, Ivins was seen to examine e-mail accounts and look at a web site "dedicated to the Anthrax Investigation."

Yikes, I just did both those things myself!

And I'm just really noticing some points from the affidavit:
The affidavits say that the FBI seeks "electronic communications, electronic documents, internet activity, and stored writings identifying a plan to kill witnesses or names of intended victims, suicide letters, or any other relevant electronic data."

"Suicide letters" Hmmmm. What were they looking for and what, if anything, have they found?

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. They've spread more innuendo. Is that the purpose?
:shrug:
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Spreading more innuendo is always a top purpose for them.
At this rate, we'll soon see "We had a hunch he..." or "Our Spidey-sense tingled and we knew he was the one."

Mabus makes a good point below about how long they've had the computers. I would think that's plenty of time to release something if anything they found implicated him.

I keep wondering - and there's absolutely nothing there to substantiate this - if maybe Ivins might have found something that would exonerate him. Or wrote something in that direction.

And my mind went to this even more today because I was talking to a friend who is a librarian, a gentle sweet woman who was appalled that the Frederick librarian released these without a warrant. If they'd tried this with her, they would have found themselves standing outside on the sidewalk calling somebody up to get a warrant.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. According to the document
they have been in the FBI's possession in Manassas, Virginia since July 31st. They will stay in the FBI's possession until they search them (http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/08-497%20affidavit.pdf page 6)

Expect to hear what they found, if anything, some late Friday afternoon.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
70. Ivins attorney should go public at some point--Mukasey is trying this thing in the Media
hell, even Tom Daschle is a witness now.

If Ivins attorney wanted to protect his client's name, he'd fight back.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
56. kr
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WattleBreakfast Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
63. NPR yesterday...
"Talk of the Nation" did a story on appropriate standards for investigators to use in solving a case. They talked at length about ethical and legal issues on topics like lying to suspects to get confessions and interrogation strategy. You know what they came up, what they in the end decided was the most prudent coarse of action?

They said that it is and should be up to individuals, to decide how far to take unethical or questionable tactics to solve a case. It should be up to each investigator to decide the "line in the sand" to not cross when doing their job.

Guess what else? THAT IS FUCKING BULLSHIT! Are we not a country of laws? That line in the sand should be painted in florescent hotpink by our society with LAW. That line in the sand should be fucking legislated. Standards and procedures and acceptable tactics should be legislated. They talked about the issue of how important it is that investigators have the ability and freedom to be creative to solve a case. Well, be creative, within law mandated bounds, clear to all of US law enforcement.

I can't believe this shit!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. And it's about to get worse: FBI to get freer rein

Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008


FBI to get freer rein to look for terrorism suspects
By Marisa Taylor | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON Attorney General Michael Mukasey confirmed plans Wednesday to loosen post-Watergate restrictions on the FBI's national security and criminal investigations, saying the changes were necessary to improve the bureau's ability to detect terrorists.

Mukasey said he expected criticism of the new rules because "they expressly authorize the FBI to engage in intelligence collection inside the United States." However, he said the criticism would be misplaced because the bureau has long had authority to do so.

Mukasey said the new rules "remove unnecessary barriers" to cooperation between law enforcement agencies and "eliminate the artificial distinctions" in the way agents conduct surveillance in criminal and national security investigations.

"There was clear-eyed and bipartisan recognition after the attacks that we needed to be able and allowed to collect intelligence in the United States," he said in speech prepared for an anti-terrorism conference in Portland, Ore. "Indeed, there was a loud demand for it."


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/244/story/48078.html
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. And just in time for the elections
I suddenly have this desire to listen to "Clampdown" by The Clash.

:crazy:

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romulusnr Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
74. They fucking Guy Montag'ed this guy
and if I believed in god I'd thank him for letting their complete bullshit come to light.

It won't change anyone's mind though because people especially a very significant number of americans are largely dumb-fucking stupid.

Mukasey, Mueller, Chertoff, they should all GTFO. Obama better not keep any of these people (or anyone on GWBs cabinet for that matter).
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