Some info I sent to TPM re: McCain, Georgia, and the felony they're about to commit...

[WilliamPitt]

1 + 2 + 3 + 3A + 3B = felonious abrogation of the Logan Act by Mssrs. McCain, Lieberman and Graham...should any of them decide to take that trip East-ways...tell me I'm wrong:

===

1.

The Logan Act is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments.

It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994.

Violation of the Logan Act is a felony, punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years.

The text of the Act is broad and is addressed at any attempt of a US citizen to conduct foreign relations without authority.

Wiki background link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act

The law itself:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec...

=====

2.

Bush, Sending Aid, Demands That Moscow Withdraw

President Bush sent American troops to Georgia on Wednesday to oversee a “vigorous and ongoing” humanitarian mission, in a direct challenge to Russia’s display of military dominance over the region. His action came after Russian soldiers moved into two strategic Georgian cities in what he
and Georgian officials called a violation of the cease-fire Russia agreed to earlier in the day.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14georgi...

=====

3. (!!!!!!)

McCain Sending Delegation to Georgia

This is quite hilarious. Sen. McCain has just announced that he's sending his own delegation to Georgia (Sens. Lieberman and Graham) and now he's insisting that it's not a time for politics and partisanship.

Link: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/208358.php

==

3A.

McCain, Scourge of Lobbyists

Let me see if I can explain this simply.

When Sen. McCain was doing his highly circumscribed senate investigation of lobbyist Jack Abramoff, Jack's then-firm, Greenberg Traurig, hired sometimes McCain foreign policy advisor and most-times lobbyist Randy Scheunemann "for advice on handling the Senate investigation."

This was while Scheunemann was also lobbying for the government of Georgia.

McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers told the Times "he believed that Mr. Scheunemann was hired because he had worked in Congress for more than a decade and had experience with investigations, and not because of any ties he had to Mr. McCain."

Link: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/208423.php

==

3B. (!!!!!!!!)

Top McCain Surrogates Heading To Georgia

At a news conference in Michigan this afternoon, John McCain ratcheted up his rhetoric on the Georgia-Russia conflict, saying his colleagues Lindsey Graham and Joseph Lieberman would be traveling to Georgia "as soon as possible."

Link: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08...

=====

1. = It is a felony abrogation of the Logan Act to negotiate with foreign powers without authorization. This has been settled American law for more than two centuries;

2. = Bush is negotiating with foreign powers, per the (sad but genuine) authority vested in him by the Constitution.

3. = McCain apparently intends to do an end-run around Dumb George with his own *koff* experts *koff* *vomit*.

3A. = McCains foreign policy chief was balls-deep into Georgia well before the shooting started, and may have inadvertantly/or not inadvertantly helped to cock the weapons and squeeze the triggers...for a fee...maybe...

3B. = The same as #3 above, but well worth repeating...A senator with no constitutional authorization to negotiate with any foreign power in the Caucuses, or anywhere else for that matter, is preparing to send two other equally un-authorized senators to...do...what? Sight-see? Say hi? Or say, "Hey, McCain's gonna be president, so talk to us cuz we speak for him and America, so..." That shit worked out great in 1980 (see: Reagan, Iran, Iran-Contra, etc.).

John McCain is:

a) Crazier than a million things that are really crazy, and;

b) A wanna-be felon right now, and an actual felon to be if he dispatches his "colleagues" to a foreign nation as authorized representatives of this nation, or as agents who can negotiate anything whatsoever, period, according to the black-letter strictures of the Logan Act...(along with, I'd assume, however many other supplemental laws regarding non-official international negotiations that have been enacted since 1799, not to mention the '94 amendment parameters)

Oh...and c) Lieberman and Graham would be felons, too....along with Randy, I have to assume.

My mom always said there's always a silver lining somewhere.

;o)

Find lawyers, international law scholars, and researchers to dig up any/all other laws pertaining to unauthorized meddling assholes PRESUMPTUOUS ENOUGH to believe they can/should speak for this nation, or can/should speak to any other nation on behalf of us all, before any votes have been cast to invest them with such powers, as per the Constitution.

(...stick it to 'em, folks...this smells tasty...cheers)


--
William Rivers Pitt

"Politics is the art of controlling your environment." - Hunter S. Thompson

[H2O Man]

1. Nominated

Right on target. Thank you.

[King Coal]

51. No, He is thinking about the Lonnigan Act.

[formercia]

2. It worked for Poppy in 1980

I wouldn't be surprise if some of his crew were on-board with McCain on this, after all, it's noblesse oblige, ersatz notwithstanding.

Wait, his degenerate spawn is President.

[bjobotts]

68. McCain would rather start a war than lose an election. Georgia thinks they are paying for US support

[formercia]

96. McCain wants to be another 'War President.'

It's the only way he could keep the sheeple distracted and afraid.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. I'm sure the corporate media will be all over this.

This is good stuff Will, and it is going to be up to us blogbarians to put this into the media stream.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Give me until noon

to turn it into a truthout essay. Short and to the point should do.



Laws? Pish-posh.

[theboss]

25. Oh, well, that will make it a front page story on the Times

I had no idea you were pulling out the big guns.

[King Coal]

54. ROFL Boss. That's a good one.

[King Coal]

53. Well, at least get the name right. Sheesh.

[formercia]

5. What if the Russians come up with dead US contractors in Ossetia?

Blackwater might qualify for the brass ring on this.

A couple of live contractors might sweeten the pot. Hasenfus redux.

[TheLastMohican]

10. They already did

There was footage on Russian TV showing guys which most likely mercs. Not Georgians or anybody from Caucasus.

They said to be demolishing experts who were caught red-handed.
I don't buy this but lets where it will develop. Certainly Russia holds all the cards in this geopolitical game.
What US does is trying to "save face".

[gademocrat7]

6. K & R

[malaise]

7. Great post

K & R

[annabanana]

8. Hey Will. Good to see you back in the mix. Great Post.

The media has been treating McCain as "President in Waiting" since this thing started.

[MH1]

9. Help me out here.

How is sending a delegation to Georgia have anything to do (necessarily) with "negotiating" with a foreign government?

Congressional delegations visit foreign countries, including areas of conflict, all the time.

I think you're making a very big leap here. Maybe I overlooked some pieces of the puzzle?

Oh and as a side note, I can absolutely guarantee that if the Democratic Party looks to the American voters anything like what I've been seeing on DU - the Russian propaganda bought hook, line, sinker, and friggin' boat - you can just get over any hopes that Obama will win in November. Another friggin' BUSH could beat an opponent who appears pro-Russian and anti-NATO. It may suck and be awful and all that to the well-meaning progressive and peace-loving folk here, but that is the bind we're in. Thankfully Obama and his team each have more common sense in their little fingers than most of the rabid left wing does collectively. Of course even if Obama and the Democrats make reasonably sensible moves, the rabid left may decide they prefer a McCain presidency after all (to bring on the revolution faster, you know), so it will be the same result.

So now I'm off to go bury myself in work and figuring out how I'll survive the next 8 years rest of my life, seeing how this is going to play out.

[WilliamPitt]

17. While it surely is an assumption, I'd be hard-put to call it a big leap.

You've been on the planet for the last eight years. List for me, please, every instance the Bush folks had an opportunity to use a tense and/or lethal situation to their political advantage, but chose not to do so, because that would be wrong...and also illegal and stuff, too.

Yeah. I'm stumped, too.

Not a leap, unless history doesn't count anymore. An assumption, and a safe one at that.

The goal of this trip is to assist in the re-emergence of some semblance of Cold War hostilities. All the martial gibberish you've heard frothing out of Mr. McCain's yapper likewise serves to ratchet up tensions between nuclear states because of an active shooting war. Etc.

Why? Two reasons, or what I assume are reasons.

1. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Economy need war, war eat economy, people who are not you or me get crazy paid, old story often told. The War on Terror is no longer the multi-trillion-dollar weapons-contractor jamboree it once was. Why not dust off the old playbook instead? Russia...yeah, I remember them. Hell, a newly-minted East-West standoff only has to get to be one tenth the size of the old state of affairs. It'll still pay out like a million-dollar slot machine that prints its own money and every turn's a jackpot.

2. EVERY Republican who has to face the voters come November with Bush/Cheney around their neck, with every wack-ass Bush-sucking vicious anti-American vote they've cast since '01 around their neck, and Iraq, Katrina, Abramoff, spying, stupidity, and also with that American gymnast who fell off the beam around their neck, just goddam because...

That party has nothing to run on. I mean, have you heard the one about the GOP's fiscal responsibility? Nyuk nyuk nyuk...How about that smaller government? Wakka wakka wakka...and, FYI to GOP, that whole "Gays Hate America Fetus Fetus!" tactic only works on a populace that is employed and comfortable enough to get worked up about people they don't know...

...and that is not the style this year, I'm afraid. More than a million foreclosures, another million mortgages 30 days overdue, another million 90 days overdue. When it's all over in a few years, according to a pile of economists, America will probably have lost 10% of its total wealth, which an economic shithammer that would put the deprivations of the Great Depression in deep shade if those numbers prove out. That's just one of the issues they suck rocks on.

Of course, there are lots of issues they can't mention at all, even accidentally, without costing themselves votes. Katrina...yeah, not on the GOP highlight reel. The only people who dig the surge and think it was a boffo idea to buy...I mean, attackIraq are the shitheads on your television screen, which means they're cataclysmically stupid and in the vast minority. Etc.

The only thing the GOP has going for them is the onset of tensions, strife and/or open war, because that's when their tough-guy rhetoric really shines.

Especially when it gets broadcast wall-to-wall by a media cartel whose ratings and advertising revenues go through the roof and over the moon when they are able to show night-vision explosions, the incineration of whole city blocks, tanks on the move, A-10s on the wing, Apaches on the prowl, and some dipshit political general to explain exactly how totally ball-bangingly lethally awesome it all is.

CNN's viewership went up 500% after 9/11. The ad guys saw that, but they probably knew it was coming, thanks to all the experience they got in the early 90s during the ratings bonanza that was the Gulf War. When it comes to those cats, count me on Bill Hicks' side.

Lieberman, Graham, hell, the entire GOP congressional '08 slate on the ballot this November, nearly 40 GOP Senators, and basically the Republican Party itself is facing a full-tilt electoral massacre in November...unless they can somehow get the media to change the subject to warfare. Hey, wow...they just did it.

Nice little symbiotic relationship. Everyone gets paid, and a lot of elephants get to keep their seats.

So, yeah. I assume.

[theboss]

23. So...to counteract that....we arrest them?

The fuck?

[WilliamPitt]

33. Nah. We'll just point out their lawbreaking.

Again.

[theboss]

37. Because every American is well-versed in the Logan Act

Good times.

[King Coal]

58. Lannihan. It's called the Lannihan Act.

It was named after the famed Englishster, Lord Lannihan.

Larry Lannihan b. 1886 d. 1932

[MH1]

34. Yeah but I still don't think you have any evidence of Logan Act violation.

And if you pull that out then you are simultaneously accusing Obama, Kerry, and a host of others.

You can't presume other people's motives, you have to prove it.

I'm as frustrated as you are about the Bush administration, but I don't think it's a bad idea, actually, to send a delegation to Georgia to see what the f--- is really going on. I just think it shouldn't be a partisan trip - Obama people should be there too. My main reason for thinking they need to go, is that there is a whole lot of conflicting info being reported. This morning NPR quoted at least one human rights org (I forget which, I was half asleep but this woke me up), discrediting Russian claims of casualty numbers in Ossetia, by a huge factor. In another words, the saintly (on DU!) Russians are - OMG - lying. OMG, tell me it isn't so!

I am no fan of the Bush admin but Bush admin evilness does not automatically mean Russia is pure and good. And it also doesn't mean that every single thing that any republican ever does is necessarily bad. (Not saying I would EVER vote for a republican again, after that party foisted BUSH on us, but that's not the point.)

[MH1]

35. Where, specifically, does McCain say anything about "negotiating"?

Here's the actual text as given on TPM (bold mine):

McCain said:

"The situation in Georgia remains fluid and dangerous. As soon as possible my colleagues senators Lieberman and Graham will be traveling to Georgia. They're both members of the Senate Armed Services Committee. I hope that other members of the Armed Services Committee in the Senate will go together."

I'm just saying I don't think you have a leg to stand on here. Sure McCain gets the jump and gets to look like a "leader" if Dems from the Armed Services Committee go along, but given what a useless piece o' crap we have for a commander-in-chief, I think it behooves the Congress to do its own fact-finding, in case they are called on to pass any resolutions about this situation in the near future. I don't think Dems can shirk this and certainly not successfully by invoking the Logan Act.

[kestrel91316]

85. McCain SUPPORTERS are not welcome on DU.

But you knew that and figured the rules also didn't apply to YOU, right?

[jaybeat]

40. Uh, don't get lost on your way back to the DLC bus

It may suck and be awful and all that to the well-meaning progressive and peace-loving folk here, but that is the bind we're in. Thankfully Obama and his team each have more common sense in their little fingers than most of the rabid left wing does collectively. Of course even if Obama and the Democrats make reasonably sensible moves, the rabid left may decide they prefer a McCain presidency after all (to bring on the revolution faster, you know), so it will be the same result.



Look, MH, I don't care if you've got a gazillion posts, but this is pretty out there. For starters, the loon in charge in Georgia pokes the big Russian bear enough that it actually takes a swipe back, and you complaining about "Russian propaganda"??

Next, given all of the, er, "interests" that Western energy companies have in both controlling the energy resources in the area AND in keeping our energy situation precarious enough to demand high prices, you really think this is all big, bad Russia picking on poor, wittle Georgia? (Remember, we invaded Iraq to keep their oil from coming online, which would have depressed prices, and are salivating over doing the same to Iran since Iraqi oil is now slowly starting to flow--now that Western companies are in place to cash in.)

But, really, "the rabid left wing"???



You sound like someone on Faux. America wouldn't know a "radical left wing" if it came up and revolted all over our consumerific culture.

Workers of the World Unite!

[JDPriestly]

62. We are not pro-Russian. We just want the truth.

I read foreign newspapers. The version of the what happened between Ossetia/Georgia and Russsia/Georgia looks a lot like propaganda when the American newspapers tell a story that is different from the story told in German and French newspapers.

Here is the opinion of the editors of the reputable Austrian newspaper, Der Standard, on the events around Georgia.

Georgian President Michail Saakaschwili gives television interviews each day for the foreign press in fluent English. And what he says sounds explosive: On Wednesday, for example, he explained that Russia wants to surround Tiflis,the capital. American troops would be taking control of the Georgian airports and harbors, he announced in another interview. These statements were quickly followed by denials. But those kinds of statements make it difficult to judge the situation in the South Caucausus.

Täglich gibt der georgische Präsident Michail Saakaschwili Fernsehinterviews, für ausländische Sender gerne in fließendem Englisch. Und was er zu sagen hat, klingt explosiv: Russland wolle die Hauptstadt Tiflis umzingeln, erklärte er beispielsweise am Mittwoch auf CNN. Die US-Streitkräfte würden die Kontrolle über georgische Flug- und Seehäfen übernehmen, kündigte er in einem anderen Interview an. Das Dementi folgte prompt. Doch derartige Äußerungen machen es schwer, die Situation im südlichen Kaukasus zu beurteilen.

http://derstandard.at /

No one really knows what is going on thanks to all the lies.

So, believe what you want, but, remember you don't KNOW anything about what is going on. Next to Greece, Austria is the closest of the traditionally Western European countries with democratic governments in place for as long as 50 years. Therer probably isn't a better source for the news on this.

[JDPriestly]

64. Here is another small excerpt from Der Standard.

Regardless of the merit of the accusations -- every victim on all sides of this heated, nationalistic conflict is one too many. But talk of genocide sounds macabre coming from the mouth of a man, who lead Russians second campaign against the break-away Caucasian Republic Tschechen in 1999. The victims of that war reached around 10,000, and estimates of up to 100,000 dead have been made.


Was immer an den Vorwürfen dran ist - jedes Opfer in diesem auf allen Seiten nationalistisch aufgeheizten Konflikt ist zu viel. Aber von Völkermord zu sprechen klingt einigermaßen makaber aus dem Mund eines Mannes, der 1999 Russlands zweiten Feldzug gegen die abtrünnige Kaukasusrepublik Tschetschenien eingeleitet hat. Die Opfer dieses Krieges gehen in die Zehntausende, Schätzungen sprechen von bis zu 100.000 Toten.

http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1216918963014

One of the articles at this site states that Saakaschwilli is only 40 years old. That is a bit young to be the president of a country. I don't want to offend anyone, but a 40-year old does not have much historical perspective on things. Saakaschwilli seems to be giving some Europeans the impression that he is a bit too excitable. Maybe not. Putin is an old fox. He knows right where the fattest hens are hiding.

Is Putin trying to establish his right to interfere in kind of a mirror of the Bosnian affair? And, if so, why now? And what about the reports that Georgia actually started the use of military or police force? What really happened to set this off? what is happening now? These questions remain to be answered. We may be able to differentiate guys in white hats -- good guys -- from guys in black hats -- bad guys. But the picture is not clear enough to know who is good and who is bad yet. Certainly, Putin is not someone I trust. But then, is Saakaschwilli? Why should we trust him? Did he take action to pre-empt inevitable Russian use of miliary force? This is all unclear.

[zazen]

11. didn't Jesse Jackson do something similar?

I think it was during the Clinton administration. Can't even remember what country, but I remember people being really p'od about it.

[conscious evolution]

12. Yes he did

It was Lebanon,IIRC,where he went to negotiate the return of a shotdown pilot.
Jimmy Carter has also been accused of the same thing with his work for the Carter Center.

The difference between Mcsame and them,though,is that Carter and Jackson did not have their people over ther beforehand trying to goad the belligerents into war beforehand.

[Triana]

13. Everyone's missing the double-standard rule: If a REPUBLICAN does it, it's OK..

...if a Democrat does it, it's illegal and PRESUMPTUOUS. If Obama did it, for instance, it'd be all over the "news" as arrogant, illegal, and presumptuous.

But - it's McCain.

I doubt therefore anything will come of this.

[Crabby Appleton]

14. What a stinging rebuke of Obama

who visited the Mideast and Europe last month and met with foreign and factional leaders.

"Find lawyers, international law scholars, and researchers to dig up any/all other laws pertaining to unauthorized meddling assholes PRESUMPTUOUS ENOUGH to believe they can/should speak for this nation, or can/should speak to any other nation on behalf of us all, before any votes have been cast to invest them with such powers, as per the Constitution."

[MH1]

16. Thank you

When did DU become bizarro world? Has it always been like this and it takes Will Pitt going over the edge to make me see it?

[theboss]

21. This place has always been a little nutty

It's gone positively batshit insane over the last year.

[Lisa0825]

24. But was he negotiating with opposing sides?

Honest question... was he negotiating with conficting parties, or was he just meeting with each individually? I think it makes a big difference, because McCain has actually expressed a completely different opinion than Bush on the situation in Georgia, so for him to send his own delegation is really challenging Bush's own attempts at "diplomacy."

[Time for change]

30. But there's a big difference between speaking with and negotiating

There's no evidence or reason to believe that Obama did any negotiating. So I don't think this post can be considered a rebuke of Obama.

On the other hand, we don't know what McCain is going to do yet.

[bjobotts]

71. McCain would rather start a war than lose an election. Lobbyist fees to lobby McCain

and McCain is trying to give them their money's worth...almost a $million...while interfering in this conflict for financial and political gain.

He will get us involved in a war just to win an election. This is not a political candidate for president, this is a lobbyist "bitch".

[WilliamPitt]

32. How many wars did he put himself in the middle of?

I mean wars not started by America, that is...

Kind of makes a difference.

[theboss]

39. So, every congressperson or activist who visited Africa over the last 20 years...

....is a criminal.

Have you thought this through in the least?

[babylonsister]

43. Have you? Did every Congress person go to Africa with

the expressed intent of getting involved in any war, or changing the course of one? There's the difference. McGrumpy is sending people into a war zone to accomplish something, so to me that would be trying to negotiate something. Big difference.

[theboss]

55. I am assuming that at some point an American was in Darfur and asked someone to stop

According to Will, that person is a criminal.

Anyway, this is stupid. The executive branch has nearly complete autonomy in foreign relations. All Bush has to say is, "I asked Senator McCain to meet with both parties" or even "I blessed this trip" or even "I have no objection to this trip."

[JDPriestly]

66. The president sometimes sends emissaries who are charged

to visit and even negotiate on his behalf. He can do that. That is within his constitutional powers.

Senators like Obama can go for discussions (So can Representatives. Remember Pelosi in Syria.) and they can carry authorized messages to foreign leaders or do fact-finding. They are not authorized to conduct independent foreign policy unless charged with a mission by the president. They just observe, report back.

It would be a violation of the Constitution (I know Bush doesn't think the Constitution still applies) for a senator or congressman to actually negotiate overseas without the authorization of the president.

[pnwmom]

94. I think the difference is McCain saying things like: We are all Georgians.

He has no business speaking for all Americans with regard to this conflict, or in any other matter.

[MessiahRp]

63. Was anyone on Obama's staff a paid lobbyist for a country involved in his visit?

You do realize that McCain's campaign staffer was paid to work on behalf of Georgia in our country and that there are more than just political discussions had when someone is paid to lobby for you? Those people are negotiating on your behalf which is a direct violation of the law Will is discussing.

Obama visited other countries, probably discussed policy views but McCain's guy actually is paid to negotiate on behalf of this other country.

Big difference.

Rp

[JDPriestly]

65. Obama went with a Congressional delegation as a visitor.

He did not go to negotiate anything other than ordinary friendship. He made that quite clear. That is acceptable, even encouraged conduct by Senators. He was not negotiating anything on behalf of the U.S., just fact-finding and restating long established American policy.

[spanone]

15. i'm sure mr mukasey will be all over this...

[Waiting For Everyman]

18. Find where Rove fits in with his Crimean "vacation"...

...an enforced Congressional subpoena would get to the facts on that effectively.

And Jonathan Turley might be interested in this?

[Mr Hedley Bowes]

61. Yep...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Given the way McCain has boasted of his frequent calls to Saakashvili in attempts to reclaim the mantle of the best international leader, it raises questions of whether the Administration's "see no evil" approach to Georgia was part of a deliberate campaign strategy.

Particularly when you consider the fact that Karl Rove may have met with Saakashvili just days after the July 9 private dinner between Condi and Saakashvili that the White House, State, and DOD are now panicking about. Rove was in the neighborhood, in Yalta, at a conference with Saakashvili three days after the meeting (h/t brendanx).
http://www.yes-ukraine.org/en/programyes5.html

[bjobotts]

72. Rove was busy trying to arrange an "October" surprise in "August"

[starroute]

19. The Logan Act has always been about political grandstanding

Wikipedia says no one's ever been prosecuted under it. And their description of how it was enacted in 1799 sounds like something that could happen today. Though Wikipedia doesn't say so, it seems George Logan was just one more liberal, do-gooder, Quaker who felt embarrassed by the anti-French hysteria at the time of the Alien and Sedition Acts, wanted to make the point that not all Americans were like that, and managed to make the Adams administration look bad in the process.

The point with McCain (as it was with Reagan in 1980) is that presidential candidates are not mere private citizens and that negotiating with foreign governments on their part can easily amount to an improper attempt to influence elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act

Passed under the administration of President John Adams, during tension between the U.S. and France, it was informally named for Dr. George Logan of Pennsylvania, a state legislator (and later US Senator) and pacifist who in 1798 engaged in semi-negotiations with France during the Quasi-War.

Kevin Kearney, writing in the Emory Law Journal, described Dr. Logan's activities in France:

Upon his arrival in Paris, he met with various French officials, including Talleyrand. During these meetings, he identified himself as a private citizen, discussed matters of general interest to the French, and told his audience that anti-French sentiment was prevalent in the United States. Logan's conversation with Merlin de Douai, who occupied the highest political office in the French republic, was typical. Logan stated that he did not intend to explain the American government's position, nor to criticize that of France. Instead, he suggested ways in which France could improve relations with the United States, to the benefit of both countries. He also told Merlin that pro-British propagandists in the United States were portraying the French as corrupt and anxious for war, and were stating that any friend of French principles necessarily was an enemy of the United States. Within days of Logan's last meeting, the French took steps to relieve the tensions between the two nations; they lifted the trade embargo then in place, and released American seamen held captive in French jails. Even so, it seems that Logan's actions were not the primary cause of the Directory's actions; instead, Logan had merely provided convenient timing for the implementation of a decision that had already been made.

Despite the apparent success of Logan's mission, his activities aroused the opposition of the Federalist party in Congress, who were resentful of the praise showered on Logan by oppositional Democratic-Republican newspapers. Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, also of Pennsylvania, responded by suggesting that Congress "act to curb the temerity and impudence of individuals affecting to interfere in public affairs between France and the United States." The result was the Logan Act, which was pushed through by the Federalist majority (60-46 in the House; and 22-10 in the Senate) with relatively little debate.

[theboss]

20. Does this mean that Jesse Jackson can be arrested?

This site has taken its crazy pills this week.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. McHelter Skelter was appointed Deputy pResident yesterday

and Graham and LIEberman are just taking a vacation at the taxpayer's expense, when they should be in Washington taking care of rising oil prices.

It's a cheap way to make the taxpayers pay for another campaign photo op overseas for McPimp.

[DailyGrind51]

26. Thank you!

This is "old wine" served in "new skins", the threat of a new "Cold War", after their "War on Terror" failed to retain traction.

[Fiendish Thingy]

27. Unfortunately, no chance in hell Mukasey will prosecute...

and I even doubt the MSM will cover this angle, as they'll be busy covering the #1 NY times bestselling Swiftboat book on Obama...

nevertheless, thanks for the post Will.

[Time for change]

28. McCain is getting scarier and scarier -- He appears to be desperate

Two questions about this come to mind:

1. If he does negotiate with a foreign power, it may be difficult to obtain proof that he did so.

2. Unlike 1980, the current administration is of the same Party as the negotiators and strongly supports them. If McCain got into legal trouble over this, I think that Bush would be happy to claim (whether true or not) that he gave them authority to negotiate.


Do you think that either of these issues poses a substantial problem towards holding McCain legally accountable?

Thanks for posting this information. This is very scary.

[peacetalksforall]

29. Are there any agreements that we're breaking by sending 'soldiers'

to a country such as we did, whether they are from traditional division reporting through admirals and generals and on up to the President or a mercenary bunch reporting to the State Dept and then up?

Or are we breaking an agreement just by sending our mercenaries and operators into the country?

If Rice told the Amabassador in Iraq not to extend help to Obama, will she also tell the Amabassador in Georgia not to extend help to Leiberman and Graham? Also, yesterday or the day before the State Dept ordered all Americans out of Georgia - please include that. Seems to me that means No Visitors.

The way you present this, all three Senators were/would be acting on their own. Might the spys on DU advise the check writers who sign their spy checks about your post causing Bush to turn it around to avoid the Act. He could say he is sending Leiberman and Graham on a mission (making Rice look deficient), and McCain will accompany them? The campaign coup for McCain and Repubs would be for nothing? Or would they allow it to play out as you describe (because they don't care about our laws) and if there is flack later, just say that Bush authorized it and the old 'gandists would have their fodder to make the old gullibles believe that the Dems are playing with the Logan Act for political reasons?

The key here is the lobbyist, it seems - he must be exposed and his name become a household word in certain homes that can handle the intracacies.

Also, this plays into a snippit I heard about two years ago - Bush presented an idea for a future where trained people from all over the world would be peacekeepers and sent into countries. He used Africans as an example - and tied it to economic pluses for the jobs that would be provided. Well, it looks like he meant Blackwater with their recruiting from Chile and other places and it looks like he meant corporate purposes. They wouldn't be in there if this had been a mountain top in one of the other former USSR countires where oil drigging was out of the question.

This also appears to be one of their five for one specials - they (Cheney, George, dragging along Rice) had a major oil maneuver to take care of following a probably genuine uprising by the people in a part of Georgia. Now, they, as usual, are just playing out all the other little benefits that could come from one act so that if they don't win on one, they might have a bonanza on the other. Or confuse it all so much that the media wouldn't touch it and would consider the complexity too much to explain. Suskinds reality statement in practice in one of its forms.

Logan Act, yes, if the lawyers among us agree. That's domestic. Are there any international treaties, also?

Yes, give us a cleaned up version so that we can forward it.
Good job, Will.

[unblock]

31. doesn't any member of congress have the right to travel and investigate something

at least as long as it could conceivably affect their district/state?

[L. Coyote]

36. You are WRONG, and you are also missing the whole point!

1. First, the Senators could be negotiating with authorization from Bush (without calling the media, or you of course) and, obviously, they could just say they were later if a positive breakthrough happens, all in collusion with Bush and the RNC.

2. More importantly, this war is being exploited by McCain for political purposes.
2a. That's why he has to say this should not be politicized.
2b. The M$M is going to play this like a carefully orchestrated opera with John "JC" McCain as the Superstar.
2c. There is probably already a deal in the background to make #2 work perfectly.

3. This is an extension of the War on Iraq for oil.
3a. The USA has inserted itself into Georgian politics because of energy extraction strategies, to fulfill their massive oil import demands.
3b. The empire is growing in the region, and another empire is competing for control of Georgia by simply invading a sovereign nation.
3c. What can the USA say, since they did that very thing in Iraq?

There is plenty to focus on here by way of scandalous national and human behavior without inventing stuff! Focus on the birds in hand.

[LSK]

38. how is this different than Obama's trip or Pelosi or other Senators going abroad???

I remember the right slamming Pelosi when she went on a middle east trip a year ago. Obama just did his trip where he was talking to leaders of numerous governments.

Whats the difference?

Also as far as authorized, I'm sure that Bush would just say he authorized them which would void that argument.

You are really really grasping at nothing here. At least in regards to the legal speak.

[whistle]

41. McCain committing yet another adulterous act against the American people

<snip>
Text of the Logan Act

§ 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.
1 Stat. 613, January 30, 1799, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 953 (2004).

[Efilroft Sul]

42. Will, is their visit to Georgia any different from Pelosi's to Syria?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/30/pelosi.trip/inde...

[JDPriestly]

67. Pelosi just reiterated her support for the Bush administration's

stance on Syria. If McCain does that, then he is within the law. If he goes to a foreign country and takes an independent stance on Bush's policy toward that country while in that country, maybe not. But, remember, everyone, even McCain, is considered innocent until proved guilty. It would probably be hard to prove a violation of this act, even if it occurred.

[LiberalEsto]

44. Didn't Ronnie Ray-Gun do this with Iraq hostages

when Jimmy Carter was president?

[crickets]

87. The hostages were in Iran

The "this" you're talking about is still up for debate given the trip hasn't taken place yet. The lobbyist element (particularly taken in context with some of McCain's comments) is troubling. I don't understand why the current lobbyist for hire to foreign governments situation is legal in some respects, but there you go.

As for Ronnie and the hostages in Iran, my personal opinion is that parties connected to him (perhaps with his knowledge, perhaps not) did indeed negotiate the delayed and almost precise timing of the release, which is sleazy on so many levels it beggars belief.

[bleever]

45. There are definitely big questions that need to be aired here.

K&R.

[theboss]

48. No, there are not

This is stupid beyond measure.

[bleever]

50. With Rove meeting with Saakashvili in Yalta, and Scheunemann

having gone from lobbying for Georgia to advising McCain, I have questions.

[ensho]

46. kick and thank you

nt

[cliffordu]

47. K&R!!!

[SalviaBlue]

49. K&R

[hootinholler]

52. So is the Logan Act on Mukassey's list of laws that when violated aren't really crimes? n/t

[theboss]

57. There is no violation

The point of the law is to give the president power to have the DOJ prosecute a buttinsky in foreign relations.

Let's say we are negotiating a treaty with Freedonia. Right before we sign the treaty, some nutty Congressman flies over and offers a different treaty with different terms which is signed. Bush can have that guy thrown in jail.

[formercia]

70. Thank you Congress, for taking away Junior's fast-track authority.

Now he has to be content to send Rove to make treaties and negotiate foreign policy.

[theboss]

56. You realize that all Bush has to say is "I'm cool with this" and McCain can do what he wants

Constitutionally, the President has near complete autonomy in foreign relations. So, once he authorizes McCain, it is good times.

[pnwmom]

95. That was my first thought, too. n/t

[muryan]

59. Freepers bring this up anytime a democratic senator goes overseas

They have to be openly subverting the US policy and the safety of the american people for it to be applicable. The amount of evidence needed to meet that standard is extremely high and it just doesn't fit in this case.

[theboss]

60. Exactly....we are becoming as stupid as Freepers

Or we became their mirror image a long time ago.

Everything that happens here has a doppleganger on that site.

Republican dies....we post good riddance.
Democrat gets murdered/dies in a plane crash...we suspect foul play.
Democrat commits a crime...we defend them or blame a set up.

We might as well steal their ass-backward theories on what treason is.

[ray of light]

69. Maybe King George told him he could do it and thus it isn't a crime.

well...it probably is a crime but who the fuck cares about laws when it comes to those bush cronies and their republican operatives.

[theboss]

73. It's not a crime

Christ, this is a dumb thread.

I can only assume Will has been drinking again.

[notadmblnd]

74. Just watch....McCain will get things done that bush can't

and I'm not saying that because I like the old, senile coot. But I'd put money on it right now, that he'll come home a hero (once again) and be worshiped as the god of diplomacy. Unless the President of Georgia is feeling so betrayed by the US that he'll shoot them both dead on the spot.

Lindsey graham must be his VP pick. No?

[Swamp Rat]

75. As long as Bushler authorizes the trip in any way, it is legal.

[Life Long Dem]

76. Yep. The warmonger that McSame is...

With a gung-ho style at that!

[Vinca]

77. Maybe Leiberbush and Graham are just the bag men.

Heading to Georgia for another installment of the best government money can buy.

[sellitman]

78. McCain changed this law yesterday with a "Signing Statement".

Didn't you get the memo?

[Grinchie]

79. Don't look now, but Iran is only 200 Miles south of this "War"

I find it hard to believe that the M$M is trying so hard to not label Iran just south of the Georgian border.

It's like screaming at you in the face that there is now war on two different borders of Iran, and another one just north getting propagandized out of proportion. I'm sure this is ok with the Iranians.

Saakashvili is a handpicked Bush puppet, creating a distraction for Bush in order to kick start a crisis that will lead to war with Iran. Putin is pretty smart, and I think his deferrence to Bush has long since died after Bush has planted missiles threatening the Soviet Union right on his doorstep.

Bush and McCain appear to be BFF, and have Karl Rove tied to their hips.

I can't wait until the name George and it's variant are deferred to the unemployment line.

[beac]

80. Good on you for trying. Truly, you are a patriot.

Alas, our "Justice" Department may not share your enthusiasm. They'll probably prosecute this one right after they get finished convicting Monica Goodling.....

Oh yeah, right.

[RedLetterRev]

81. K&R

I've been reading Will for years. I remain a respectful fan. Not for nothing, but Blackwater mercs have been in that region since nearly the start of the Iraq invasion. Sooner or later the bear was going to get irritated. The Great Game continues and I can't help but believe the current melodrama is a love-note addressed to the Dark Lord in the Bunker hisself. I hardly think that he can hold his own pecker up at this point, let alone hold Russia off with 20,000 hired berserkers, plastic Jesuses on their Hummer dashboards or no. Cheney's queen is neatly checked, his bishops are in the wrong spots with their britches down, their knights are scattered, and the pawns are in complete disarray.

What we have is the Chinese curse: "may one live in interesting times". I hope that McKook's times are about to be more "interesting" than most.

[crickets]

88. Wow. I am so freaking sick of the cold war.

You know what terrorism is? Terrorism is being so freaked by political hyperbole, that a three or four year-old has nightmares about the bad guy soldiers from the "bad country" rounding up all the friends and neighbors in the back yard and killing them with strange machines.

That nightmare is over forty years old - for me, anyway. Isn't is odd sad that it's still being sold on the news to a new generation?

Eventually if this BS doesn't stop, REALLY stop, somebody somewhere is going to twitch the wrong way and we will all be very, very sorry.

Republicans and military men on John McCain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJUCU1UH2w

"Useable nukes" - depleted uranium.

Unleashing the nuclear genie - "Pick your city. Pick your city. Tell me which one you want gone... Pick one. Because at least one's going. And that's something we should all think about before we march down this path of insanity." (Scott Ritter)

I hate these wrinkled old psycho-men living in the past and determined to destroy the future, or at least make it as bleak as possible for all of us if only in our minds. I hate them. If only it were possible to nullify their idiocy by ignoring them or waiting for them to disappear over time... but it's like playing whack-a-mole. They just won't GO AWAY.

Sick bastards.

[David Zephyr]

82. Excellent. K&R. To the very top!

[jeff30997]

83. McCocaine (I like to call him like that) should be prosecuted....

for violating The Gilligan's Act.He's more ridiculous and goofy than Bob Denver's character.(And far less likable).

[kestrel91316]

84. News flash to Will Pitt:

US law does NOT apply to Republicans or their lackeys.

Where have you been for the past 7 1/2 years?

[On the Road]

86. Unfortunately, McCain Didn't Say They'd be Negotiating

so for the time being it has the same status as Republican accusations against Obama on his middle eastern trip.

McCain, however, seems to be depending on the appearance of negotiations or other extra-governmental action, and this might be useful.

Someone in a position to question McCain should ask him if his surrogates are negotiating with either party or are planning negotiations. He will either admit to breaking the law or will have to back down, which will make his proposal look useless. ("I'm sending my representatives, but...they're not going to actually do anything.")

Some politicians could handle that smoothly, but I don't think McCain is one of them. He is not used to being put on the spot and could put his foot in it.

I know you have a lot of contacts in various spheres, Will. This could still turn into something.

[crickets]

91. Good point. Perhaps Mikheil Saakashvili will make it unnecessary for anyone to ask.

He seems to be a talkative guy, and his back is against the wall.

Can't help thinking it's amazing what lengths some will go to in order to see that lobbyist paycheck and perhaps another in the future, the assholes.

[nc4bo]

89. 109th recommendation and will kick as needed. nt

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

90. I love Ahhnold.

[Hippo_Tron]

92. The Logan Act is an arcane relic that can't really be enforced

The Republicans were saying the same thing when Nancy Pelosi visited Syria and met with Assad.

You don't really need a law to say that only the President of the United States is the only person allowed to speak for the nation. He controls where the bombs drop, where the troops move, and where we cut off money to via sanctions. He is the only person that holds any of the cards in these matters and so negotiating with anybody else would be pointless.

McCain can make all of the promises he wants but at the end of the day he has no power. Georgia isn't going to rely on promises that have a 50% chance of actually happening next January.

[Waiting For Everyman]

93. Unless I'm missing something, Georgia already did

Saakashvili was under the impression that the US would have his back if he got tough with the independence-seekers, which were protected by Russia. Somebody communicated that to him. So let's see, who was it... several weeks ago Rove was there, Condi was there, and Scheunemann is the lobbyinst in the middle between Saakashvili and McCain... and that is not a new relationship either, it's been going on for some time.

Bush isn't saying the US will have Georgia's back, so somebody has been negotiating something unauthorized, and different from Bush's policy.

Or... I'm not comprehending anything of the dozen or so articles I read on it today, from a variety of sources.

To me, that casts the Graham/Lieberman "junket" in a different light from Pelosi's or Obama's or anybody else's. I think McCain has already screwed this up, and it's inevitable that it'll come out just like the phoney Iraq "evidence". And I don't think it'll be after the election either. This thing looks like it's unraveling in close to real time.

[theboss]

97. Are you suggesting that the Secretary of State can't negotiate?

Does anyone here actually understand how the government works?

[Hippo_Tron]

98. In that case he's collaborating with the administration...

Who is authorized to speak for the President of the United States and therefore it is legal. Bush having one policy in public and another in private isn't a violation of the Logan Act and at the end of the day, McCain's promises are inconsequential without Bush's help.

[AllieB]

99. kick