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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:02 PM
Original message
War has begun on Europe's edge.



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/47165.html

MOSCOW Russian troops poured into Georgia Saturday as fighter jets unleashed bombs across the country, ratcheting up fears that a war has begun on Europe's edge.

Russian airborne troops reached Tskhinvali, the capital of the breakaway Georgian territory of South Ossetia, where fierce fighting was reported and both sides claimed to have "liberated" the city. Russian state media reported some 100 military transport flights were planned to bring more units to the fray.

Earlier in the day, Russia Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that about 1,500 people had been killed in the fighting.

The Russian ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko, upped that figure to 2,000, according to Interfax, a state newswire. Those figures could not be confirmed, and were considerably higher than estimates by Georgia's government.

Georgian soldiers had tried to seize Tskhinvali, in north Georgia, on late Thursday and Friday to end the long-standing conflict between the country's government in Tblisi and the breakaway region. Russia, which backs the South Ossetians, scrambled troops in response.

On Saturday, the Georgian government said it was in a state of war, and declared martial law.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who is going to stop the Russians?
Us? The Chinese? Bad state of affairs. If Bush hadn't depleted our military with his phony war in the ME maybe the USA could have acted as a deterrent for such an invasion like we did back in the cold war. Now any war mongering nation is free to invade other countries because they know they can do so without consequence. Now can you start impeachment hearings for him and his VP, Nancy?
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. The US can't act as policeman of the world.
And really, the best response would be a concerted effort by NATO/EU forces and not just the US. A joint diplomatic and, if necessary, military response to a situation like this is always a better course (see for instance the first Gulf War).
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Then we should stop meddling
Edited on Sat Aug-09-08 07:02 PM by seemslikeadream
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
57. Unfortunately, NATO/EU has decided to sit out the
Iraq invasion by us, which I think they should have tried to keep us from doing that, so I don't have much faith that they will do otherwise in this conflict.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. I think it's more complicated. China might well ally itself with Russia....
especially if the U.S. sets up a blockade against Iran.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. Who is going to stop the Georgians? The Russians.
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, we know.
You've started 88 threads about it including one about how there aren't enough threads about it. Thanks, we got the message.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah. If seemslikeadream doesn't stop, the Edwards stuff will get lost...
Horrors...
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's unnecessary to have more than one thread on either subject NT
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. This isn't the LBN forum.
Don't like it?

Get out of GD.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Ain't your board
Feel free to start one with whatever rules you like.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. This story is of utmost importance and more keeps trickling in...
I just posted more and it has more info in it that I haven't read in other posts. The stakes here are enormous and since we can't rely on the MSM for getting the information out this is what we resort to. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities. I am not out to irritate anyone but to help keep the latest information up front. Just my humble opinion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. He would if not for...
...all flights into South Ossetia being grounded. :evilgrin:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. ....
:evilgrin:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. You just hit a button ......
I'm going to now proceed to kick and rec every one of those 88 threads. Now go back to putting your head in the sand, or back up your ass.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Could you show me the rule on that?
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. From the rules:
Do not spam the message board by posting the same message repeatedly, or by posting a flood of different messages.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. BS 10 THREADS Snarkturian Clone 10 THREADS
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. These are updates of an ongoing situation.
NOT spamming.

What the hell is your problem?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. So hide them already and quit bellyaching about it. (nt)
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Since we don't have a Foreign Policy forum . . .
Where else are we supposed to get updates on this kind of thing? War there could easily destabilize the region, and some of us have ties (friends and family) in the area and want to know what's going on. Some of us are also more interested in foregin policy and wars destabilizing areas with oil pipelines than who slept with whom and when.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for posting this.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Let the EU worry about it
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. You can't be serious.
I guess you have no compassion for the thousands who are going to be displaced and killed by this war.

Russia did this because they know they can get away with it. If we continue to let China and Russia do whatever the fuck they want while we screw around in the Middle East, we will one day wake up to find that we end up being the losers in this whole thing.

We have to get a long in the world. It's as simple as that. And abdicating what little power we have is now the way to make friends. We are already looked at as the world's biggest bully and saying "fuck off" when others really do need our help isn't going to do anything to change that.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Why can't I be serious? The EU has more people than us, it's military isn't already spread thin...
and it's their fucking neighborhood, they're richer than us too. Have at it EU
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. And another thing. The EU has been the one antagonizing Russia with it's constant encroachment East
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. It's NATO expansion that antagonizes Russia, not the EU
and that's been pushed by Bush, not EU members.

The first day of the NATO summit saw France and Germany combine forces to thwart the membership ambitions of Ukraine and Georgia. They stood firm in their opposition despite the mounting pressure from US President George W. Bush to admit the two former Soviet republics.

On the first day of the NATO summit in Bucharest on Wednesday, US President George W. Bush suffered a first setback when he failed to persuade the alliance to open the door to Ukraine and Georgia for membership. France and Germany stood firm in their opposition (more...), despite the pressure Bush had piled on in the run-up to the summit with a visit to Ukraine and a keynote speech in which he urged his European allies to reward both countries for their democratic revolutions.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545078...



FWIW, Germany was trying to mediate a month ago:

Amid increasing concern from the United States and the European Union that tensions between Russia and Georgia could escalate into open conflict, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany is seeking to mediate among all sides, traveling to Georgia and its Russian-backed breakaway region of Abkhazia on Thursday, then to Moscow on Friday.

This is the first time Germany has taken on such a role in the Caucasus region, which is beset by regional conflicts.

In Georgia, where the government in Tbilisi has been trying for nearly 16 years to bring back under its control the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, there is a diplomatic push to resolve the dispute in the coming months.
...
Other countries, including the United States, and international organizations have tried, unsuccessfully, to resolve the conflict. But Halbach said Germany's equally close ties with Georgia and Russia offered a chance of at least lowering tensions and getting all sides to talk.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/17/europe/georgia.p...


but it doesn't seem to have worked.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It's both.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. "EU Expansion is Good for Russia, Putin Aide Says"
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. To a degree, but when have potential EU membership of states like Latvia, Estonia, and Ukraine...
There are multiple issues at work. First of all there is the treatment of the sizable ethnic Russian minorities within the states, which is what was commented upon in that artictle (which is 4 years old btw). Russia was speaking happily about the EU and its standards for treatment of such issues as a way to promote its own interests in that article. Then there is the sphere of influence to think of. EU expansion into Ukraine highlights its leaving the Soviet realm. This kind of conflict has played out earlier in the Orange vs Blue aka Yanukovich vs Yuschenko. Blue and Yanukovich representing a Russian friendly position and Orange being pro-Western. Russia's key to exerting pressure on Europe has been the flow of oil in recent years and to keep this control tight it needs the caucasus.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. But it remains that Russia feels it can work and trade with the EU
and while it may have some downsides for it, it can accept the expansion. But NATO expansion, of which Bush is the leading proponent, really annoys it.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. the EU seems to rely on Nato expansion too though
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #50
64. Not really sure what you mean by that
There are some EU members that aren't in NATO; and being in NATO for over 50 years hasn't got Turkey in yet. I've never seen NATO membership used as a condition for a country to be allowed to join the EU.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
Just to piss people off.

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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. I'm with you. Pissing off assholes is a favorite hobby of mine. (nt)
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hey! You noticed.
I'm reading here in the Spanish press that, er, um, (I don't watch TV), Prime Minister Putin said: "The war has begun".

And, um, that the, er "government" of the, err, "United States of America" is "considering using "diplomacy"".

--> Good thinking. For once. (self-censored - please don't do it). Um. I notice lots of people here in Europa, err, feeling quite glum. Thousands of dead civilians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ttWjLAcV4 (part 1).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_0pXDIuyTA (part 2).
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks
It was hard though with the infidelity and games and all
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
31. We are certainly in no position to get very involved.
This is tragic. My heart goes out to the people of Georgia. Thanks for the post on a serious issue.

Julie
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. We are already involved
from the beginning
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Better just drop it, seemslikeadream.
This thread doesn't feel very friendly, anymore.

Best not to get too angry, ok? Stay cool.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. Hearthbreaking photo....
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thanks for Posting this
I have not heard much of this in the news.
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fa_mike Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. Please stop genocide of Ocetian nation!
Please stop genocide of Ocetian nation!

Starting 1989 nationalistic fascist Georgian government tries to annihilate and expel Ocetian nation from its territory. As the result of Georgian warfare against small nations, tens thousands of Ocetian, Abhasian, Armenian and Russian people died since 1991. The scale of genocide is concealed by Georgian mass media. Brutality of Georgian fascists and freaksville torture of the local population overrode the torture of fascists during the Second World War.

Georgian mass media stir up the sickness of Georgian nation they believe they are only people deserving life on Georgian territory, they are exclusive, elitist; other nations should move out or be killed.

At the moment the tragedy is happening Georgians systematically shooting dead the Ocetian people in their own houses or burying under the falling homes.

Georgian fascists destroyed Ocetian settlements and town Tskhinvally they lay even with the ground.
The number of victims buried by Georgian fire under the ruins cannot be calculated it is amounted to thousands.
Georgians destroyed all hospitals. Medics cannot work under the fire of Georgians. People saved in underground stores do not have food, water, electricity, gas for 3 days they cannot go out because of Georgian fire and cannot move out of town because Georgians are trying to take hold with tanks and armored vehicles of the only road from the town to tunnel controlled by Russians.

At that Georgian president insincerely is saying that he tries to make constitutional order and peace, and suggesting lefthandedly to cease fire. All his actions are aimed towards USA and NATO (he even speaks with his nation in English so that you understand him).

USA has strategic interest in region pipeline going through Georgia. So official government of USA will never realize that Georgian president is criminal politician betrayed its nation (in fact people in Georgia do not want war), instead government of USA will support him (several hours ago a train with NATO armored machines came to Georgia).

The next victim of Georgian fascists will be Abhasian nation.

People in USA and Europe please force your politicians to stop Georgians.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I do this for you fa_mike
:hug:
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Give us a break!
єто не сайт американсого руководителъства. понятно?

Posting the same propaganda post in English with Russian grammar on every board you
can find is not going to win you any long-term fans. This is Putin's line with a
second-rate translation. If you are going to post official Russian Government propaganda,
at least bring back Vitkor Sukhodrev. Now THERE was a Russian who knew how to put stuff
into English.
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. Kickin this for SLAD
:hug: :loveya:
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
48. Fortunately, this is a little beyond Europe's edge
But the Caucasus is still too close for comfort. Europe had to absorb a million
refugees from the conflicts that arose from the breakup of Yugoslavia. The last
thing they want is for this to happen again. The Georgians are basically screwed,
and their buddy Bush will not be coming to help them. If Russia is on your doorstep
and NATO is a thousand miles away, your best bet is to make nice with Russia, not
Bush.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
49. It's true. ANYthing can become a flamewar.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. only when nutters bring in personal vendettas
:shrug:

the rest of us just want to know what the hell is going on across the pond.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
53. The UN had better get involved quick
If this is an illegal invasion, NATO will have to try to stop it, right?


Oy, this is getting bad. Russian paratroopers all over the place, tanks rolling in, and the rest of the world distracted by the pretty shiny stuff happening in Beijing.

At this point, Bush could have invaded Iran by now and nobody in America would have noticed!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Thank you
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. This won't last a week
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Glad to know you're such an expert on the subject. NT
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. eat me... it's a guess
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Oh, so you know just as less as the rest of us?
Your tone suggests otherwise.

It always does.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Oh, so now it's personal... fuck off then.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Gladly.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
60. SO glad to see this thread up and running again! Thank you MODS!
Removing the posts by the one who declared they
like "fucking" with fellow DUers deserves a DU public service award.

Thanks Mods.

BHN
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