Re: Edwards. Thomas Jefferson slept with his Slave, yet we still have a Free Country...

[symbolman]

While no one wants to condone such behavior we still have to realize that we are all Human Beings with complicated wants and needs. I feel for his wife and kids, imagine having a TV everywhere you go blaring this "sin", the MSM bandying this infatuation about like a prize Bass.. Those kids will feel the worst of it I think, much more than WE can ever understand..

As for Thomas Jefferson impregnating his Slave, I guess if they had FOX, CNN, and all those other hypocritical lying sacks of shit, Democrat Bashers, we likely wouldn't have had a country now to call our own.

They'll bash Edwards, embarrass his wife and kids, and for what, to teach us all to be more Moral, and not make the same mistake?

Nope. They'll bash Edwards so they can CONTROL our Society, take our Money, sell us ALL out, Start Another War by pushing McCain, and killing our Sons and Daughters in another pointless Rich man Enriching Corporate exercise..

So think about it.. In the larger picture, WHO has committed a more egregious "Sin".. The media corporate masters, to whom Forgiveness does NOT exist unless you are a True thieving, Rich, Lying, all powerful Bastard.. Or a man who was lonely, maybe suffering a middle age crisis, looking for solace when his wife was sick (which believe it or not happens more than you may realize, part of the Human Condition), and he Needed someone else who Seemed to Understand Him more at the time?

I for one Forgive the Man. We have to look inside ourselves and admit that we've all failed as humans at one point or another in our lives, and that the one thing that sets us above the Angels, and slightly below God (or Buddha, or who/whatever you have Faith In) is our ability to FORGIVE.

My mother died of breast cancer when I was 16 years old. I watched her die for four long years. Later I found out that my stepfather (who used to physically kick my ass on a regular basis) wasn't always headed for the Hospital each night to see my mom. He had a girlfriend, and I hated his guts for many years after mom died for doing that.

Once I grew up and saw what the world can DO to crush your spirit, and how Love has many faces, how truely Needy we are, how weak we are as Human Beings, I realized a few things. One was that I forgave my stepfather. He needed someone to hold him as much as my mother did through her illness.

The other thing I realized is that since we are all so very flawed, whether we admit it or not, we NEED each other, and we Need to forgive each other to carry on, go forward and find happiness.

It's not Free.

My heart goes out to John, His Wife, and children, every one of them.

And the Media can go fuck themselves, for THEY are beyond Redemption, and Repeat their Amoralities like Clockwork.

Let's forgive John Edwards and move forward to Elect Obama, to put his lovely family in the White House as a fine example of True Love, love for fellow countrymen & women.

There are Lives to be Saved. :)

[symbolman]

1. a little bump

since this was moved from GDP and I have no idea why..

[SammyWinstonJack]

2. Thank you! nt.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. LBJ, Kennedy, Eisehhower managed not to destroy the country despite their affiars.

Among other presidents, senators, congressmen and a whole slough of non-celebrities.

[dansolo]

4. You just don't get it

This isn't about whether John Edwards would be a capable president. This has to do with this particular election. We are at a tipping point, and the wight of the MSM is against us. John Edwards, in his selfishness, provided a tool for the already biased media to justify their attacks against the Democrats, thereby decreasing our chances of winning the election and staring to clean up the mess left behind by Bush. And a better example of the impact of an affair was the Monica Lewinsky situation. You can't argue that Bill Clinton's ability to properly lead in the last two years of his presidency wasn't severely hindered by the impeachment, which was a direct result of the affair. It was a sham, and should never have happenned, but it serves as a clear example of why politicians shouldn't engage in this type of behavior when they know it could be used against them.

Also, "everybody else is doing it" is a pretty poor defense.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. I have the quaint notion that someone's sex life is a private matter.

Because the simple-minded, hypocritical, American public is obsessed with the sexual antics of celebrities doesn't mean that we should endorse that obsession or bow to it for political expediency.

Hell, I've never been an Edwards fan and I doubt that he would make a good president. But, the media frenzy and hypocrisy displayed here is downright repugnant.

This ranks right up there with the flag-pin, boxers or jockeys, and Obama's waitress encounter, in importance as reasons to vote for a president.

[defendandprotect]

9. . . . if it is kept private. Obviously, many times it cannot ---

and in that sense many of us recognize that Edwards has provided a way for corporate

media to resurrect the Clinton "Lewinsky scandal" -- and try to tar the Democratic

Party ---

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. So, we should pander to the right out of political expediency?

Wring our hands and decry sexual impurity to prove that we're moral and upright and those who stray should be branded?

Let me ask you this: If a female Democratic nominee had had an abortion, and lied about it, would you still be calling her out for being stupid, "should have known better", or betraying the party?

One of the reasons that I'm a "Dino" is the all too frequent eagerness of Democrats to play a corrupt game because it's "smart politics".

I'm no fan of Edwards and I'm certainly not applauding his lying about his affair. Just as with Clinton, I wish he had said something along the lines of, "Piss off. My private life is my business. Just as yours is your business."

I find the elevation of politicians to celebrity status and "role models" repugnant.

They, allegedly, work for us (a questionable proposition at best), but we hire them to do politician stuff (a very questionable job), their sex life should be of no consequence to us as long as they do the job we hired them to do.

To say that we don't approve of their sex lives is, to me, on the same level as disapproving of their taste in music.

[defendandprotect]

22. Where would you get that idea . . . ?

No -- what we should be able to expect is that Edwards might have told us ALL about this
before he went off on a campaign for the presidency --

What would you have decided then about this . . . ?
Run or not run? I wouldn't have cared about his affair -- would you?

But that's not what Edwards did -- rather he sought a relationship with the public and
Democrats based on his status as a "family man."


(I'm not sure that you read my message or understood it or even meant to reply to me ---
but I'm answering it anyway . . .)

My comment was expressly intended to make clear that Edwards took a risk with the
Democratic reputation at stake --- something we didn't ALL agree to ---

While he already knew that the RUMORS were out there and was denying them ---
That's the problem.

Again . . . I think we're trying to live myths/illusions re marriage and relationships ---
and we have a lot to learn --- and these scandals do get those discussions and learning
moving along -- and in one way, that's positive!


Again, I didn't call anyone "stupid" so I think you've hooked onto the wrong message for
response . . . but I will comment . . .

First, why did you switch from affair to "abortion" . . . ??
Don't you think that females have affairs?
And don't you understand that many males encourage women to have abortions . . . ?

Actually, your question is so biased that it's almost impossible to answer, however,
what if a female candidate had an abortion and lied about it? Why would she lie?
Abortions are legal.

I certainly am not judging Edwards' "affair" --- I am saying that he put Democrats
in a difficult position . . . returning us to the insanity of Lewinsky/Clinton/
Impeachment reviews ---

[kwolf68]

47. Sex life v. Taste in music

Laughable.

You don't have to be a LYING piece of shit to listen to ANY MUSIC You want, but you HAVE to be a lying piece of shit to bang women behind your cancer-ridden wife's back and then lie to the entire world about it.

Music v Marital infidelity? LMMFAO..what will they think of next?

Put a fork into Edwards, he's done.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. The hypocrisy?!?!? Try this on for size!

Here is what John Edwards, one of just 14 co-sponsors of Joe Lieberman's Irag War Resolution, had to say about why he just could not manage to support equal marriage rights for all Americans:
"Because I’m 53 years old, and I grew up in a small town in the rural South. I was raised in a the Southern Baptist church, and so I have a belief system that arises from that. It’s part of who I am. I can’t make it disappear. … I’m just not there yet."

Where was his belief system when he cheated on his wife and family? Where was it while he lied repeatedly and when confronted with the truth, called the speakers of truth liars?
Why on Earth should this ego tripper be allowed to pontificate from a high horse about religious values when it comes to my family's rights, while making a mockery of the most basic elements of that religion in his own life. Let us remember that the founder of Edward's 'faith' never once said a word against gay people, but he spoke against adulterous men in the strongest possible terms.
Mr Edwards wished to use his bigoted attitude toward gay people as a way to look as if he respected his marriage and family. He does not live by his faith, but I should live by his bigotry?
Explain again how such things are the media's fault. Tell me how Edwards was forced to bad mouth gay people. Instead of speaking truth about himself, he spread lies about others. Explain how that is good stuff. Go ahead. And while you are at it, look up some of the rest of the history of the Southern Baptist Church that Edwards is promoting as his own core value. They were racist and only officially apolgized in the last few years. Edwards being 53 that would also be as he says 'part of who he is'.
Dig it. He is the worst kind of person on Earth. A guilty man who accuses others of his own offense in order to avoid being outed as a liar and cheat.

[orleans]

42. "quaint notion" is right. you think this rite-wing media would have let this

go?

and btw--kennedy, lbj etc didn't lose the election

w/all these "family values" neocons in a 24/7 news cycle do you honestly think edwards would have gotten away w/his little affair

this country has had their collective nose in the pants of democrats since ken starr & the media brought blowjobs into our fucking living room.

[Daemonaquila]

44. ** Clapping **

Exactly. It's about the brains, the drive, the talent for scheming, and people skills.

A winning combination of these attributes is NOT going to produce a "saint."

I don't care if the white house looks like the Playboy mansion, as long as people are getting taken care of decently, the world is relatively peaceful, and the skies and waters are clearing.

[Truth4Justice]

35. Amen to that!

[Daemonaquila]

43. And Bill Clinton had several times that many skeletons in his closet...

... when he was running. It didn't stop him from becoming a pretty effective president, minus the Monica crap at the end. We have had a bunch of sitting presidents who merrily committed adultery in the white house, during the campaign, and in positions of power before that. Big whoop.

Presidential candidates are human. To expect them to lead perfect lives (and even then, only in the judgmental eyes of part of the population) is unrealistic. Given the options, I'll take a boozing, philandering, risk-taking genius over an upright and uptight cautious moralist any day. If you want be a larger-than-life, brilliant prez, you'd better be willing to accept the personal life that comes along with it.

[datasuspect]

51. how did you feel about the tony snow "grave dancing?"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. delete

[datasuspect]

55. i might have posted to the wrong person

i often agree with you, but am too lazy to go back and edit.

l'chaim

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. my mistake. I misread the thread. Coffee deficiency.

[defendandprotect]

14. We don't know what pressures were put on many of these men by Hoover, for one . . .

Rep. Hale Boggs, Democratic Majority Leader, stood on the floor of Congress to say that memembers were being intimdiated by Hoover's FBI with wiretaps on their phones ---

And Eleanor Roosevelt long before called Hoover's FBI, "an American Gestapo". . . .


Lindy Boggs, who went on to win election to her husband's New Orleans House seat after he was killed in a 1972 plane crash, said that while Nixon and Ford might have had their doubts, her husband knew exactly what he was talking about when he made his surprising allegations of FBI abuses under Director J. Edgar Hoover.

Gestapo tactics

Boggs used what are called "one minutes," the opportunity for House members to talk about any topic they want, to say:

"When the FBI taps the telephones of members of this body and of members of the Senate, when the FBI stations agents on college campuses to infiltrate college organizations, when the FBI adopts the tactics of the Soviet Union and Hitler's Gestapo, then it is time -- it is way past time, Mr. Speaker, that the present director thereof no longer be the director."

Lindy Boggs, 90, said that a surveillance truck was regularly positioned near the Boggs' family home shortly before her husband leveled his criticism and that she had been told that the FBI was recording their phone conversations.

"These were not happy times for our family," Lindy Boggs said Friday. "We were told the FBI was monitoring our phone conversations and to draw running water between you and the telephone to wipe out the monitors."

Her recollection is supported by a former House colleague, Rep. Cornelius Gallagher, D-N.J., who said Friday that the House, under bipartisan leadership that included Ford and Boggs, had commissioned an investigation and discovered members' phones had indeed been tapped by the FBI. But he said the report was never released.

"Too many people feared J. Edgar Hoover," said Gallagher, who later was convicted of tax evasion and forced to give up his House seat, but maintains to this day that he was set up by the FBI for his criticism of the agency.

James Thurber, director of congressional and presidential studies at American University, said the allegations of drinking can't take away that Hale Boggs was right in his criticism of the FBI. The illegal wiretapping also included prominent civil rights leaders such as the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Thurber said.

Hoover certainly had the goods on LBJ, Ike, and JFK -- and this is one way those men were
controlled by their affairs. These behaviors, while quite personal, compromised them --
and certainly where there was criminal behavior - LBJ, Nixon --- presumably he had the info
on that as well. Truman was said to have had the info on Ike's affair with Kay Summers
removed from Hoover's files before Ike too office.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. And, THAT, is the problem. Not the affairs.

The government, the media, and the hypocrisy of bending to the public's fascination with celebrity sex as a test of political viability or capability.

It's time that America grew up. And, that isn't going to happen as long as we participate in the dirty game of "gotcha'" politics.

[defendandprotect]

18. Wait . . .

I'm no prude --- I think we have tremendous problems with our illusions about marriage --

and sexuality --- and that we have a lot to learn.

HOWEVER . . . it's no longer a private affair when a man runs for the presidency ---

he enters a relationship with the public and asks us to trust him ---


Especially because of Clinton's stupidity --- and what would I have cared about that if

it hadn't been used so professionally by the Repugs --- I had someone comment to me that

she didn't want Hillary in the White House because, "Bill would be up every woman's skirt!."


Now, right this woman is a jerk -- but our corporate "press" is making sure that that this

kind of message gets pounded into the heads of those stupid enough to still be watching

this garbage.


And, I certainly hope that Edwards didn't open us to a two-part'er re the child and

payments --- !!!

[supernova]

5. Thanks, symbolman, I feel the same as you

Also, I posted this last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3759626&mesg_id=3759626

[defendandprotect]

6. Not so fast there . . .

As a founding father, Jefferson helped set the enslavement of Africans in America --

which was followed by another 100 years of Segregation, Inc.

The Constitution was a compromise with slavers/slavery which finally led to the Civil War-!

[defendandprotect]

8. and right now it looks more like we have fascism than "a free country" . . .

[Truth4Justice]

36. America: Corporate police state=facsism. nt

[seabeyond]

10. what are these argument. TODAY.... edwards would have lost us the race

all of what was, what should be really doesnt fuckin matter. the reality is, if he won the primary, we would have lost election. all the rest is just bullshit argument like a bullshit affair.

he knew if caught that would be the end and he chose to run anyway saying fuck everyone else i am more important.

that is the bullshit. not a fuckin affair

[backscatter712]

11. I too am tired of the faux poutrage.

Who John Edwards chooses to have sex with is none of our fucking business.

The shrill screeching about "John Edwards LIED to us!" accomplishes nothing.

The only people who should give a shit are Elizabeth Edwards and the rest of the Edwards family, and Elizabeth already settled this matter with John long before the tabloids started putting this affair on their front pages.

Go to any other democratic nation - Canada, Britain, France... When their politicians have affairs, the people's reaction is "So what?"

[renie408]

12. Forgiving the man does not preclude abhorring the fallout or making a comment about

the situation.

[cliffordu]

13. K&R Thanks for posting this.

[Colobo]

16. The Founding Fathers enslaved people and we still have freedom.

Andrew Jackson killed thousands of Natives and we still have a free country. GWB has killed thousands of Iraquis and we still have a free country.

Moral relativism again?

[symbolman]

19. The Morality of the Media was more of what I was espousing

No one is excusing anyone...

How many people have the Media KILLED as opposed to some politician screwing around? How many people have been mortally wounded by Edwards as opposed to say, Bush?

Everything is Relative..

Elizabeth agrees with me apparently :)

[Colobo]

20. I'm afraid once John takes that paternity test, not even Elizabeth will agree with him.

[defendandprotect]

27. After the last 7 years, I'm not sure that anyone thinks we still have "freedom" . . .

The founding fathers put us on a road to fascism by ignoring the humanity of Africans in
order to pursue profits of exploitation ---

No one can have a "free country" based on genocide of the natives . . . !!!!

It is at most an illusion ---

Bush and Cheney have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanistanis -- and will
probably kill thousands more before he leaves office --- but he leaves us with a much LESS
"free country" . . .

[Truth4Justice]

39. You are absolutely correct. nt

[Truth4Justice]

37. What makes you think that the US is a free state? In what way?

[noamnety]

21. "slept with" let's call it what it was - rape.

Sex with a slave who is held captive is not consensual sex. It's rape. Don't nice that up.

I get your point, but the premise is offensive - that Jefferson raped a black woman, who was most certainly NOT free both on account of gender and race, and you (as a white dude?) are saying it wasn't so bad - at least the country was/is "free."

[symbolman]

23. Dont twist my words please...

Oh! I forgot... Men BAD! Women GOOD!

Guess I'm just another BEAST, like any male who dares disagree with you.

Your shrill, unabating rants take the use of the word "Rape" to new levels, used so much that it nearly ceases to have any Meaning.. Like saying the word "Bird" 10,000 times until it becomes Abstract.

Please Stop villifying people you Dont even KNOW by shanking them with your twisted definitions of exactly what they Were NOT even implying.. You are making a mockery of these issues, damn near a parody of what the rest of us plain old decent people already KNOW as fact..

I always wonder just WHO killed all of your puppies and waved them in your face?

You know, a person CAN be a sexual bigot, it's not only applied to RACE..

Gawd Almighty...

[noamnety]

24. I'm asking you not to use words to twist facts.

A slave, by definition, is not in a consensual relationship - even without sex added to the equation.

It's offensive to represent a RAPE as "sleeping" with someone, as if it's in any way the equivalent of two adults deciding jointly to have sex together. It's like talking about a prison guard at Abu Ghraib raping one of the women there, and referring to it as "he slept with her." You get why, as a premise to any argument, that might piss some women off regardless of whatever point you are trying to make from it?

[gaspee]

31. What's up

with the weird capitalization?

Interesting that you don't think an owner having sex with a person who has no personal agency whatsoever isn't rape.

If sex with a captive whose very life depends on your good grace isn't rape, what is?

It's kind of surprising to me that you take such offense to someone pointing out this fact. Especially since she was polite while pointing it out.

Edited to add, I agree with you about the why of the MSM's behavior but I do not agree with your description of Jefferson and Hemming's relationship.

[spooky3]

32. very well said -- also, the OP could have made the same point by

noting that Eisenhower, FDR, and others were alleged to have done bad things personally but did good things for the country.

[brentspeak]

48. Actually, we don't know for a fact that Thomas Jefferson slept with Sally Hemings

The only thing we do know for certain is that the culprit was a male in the Jefferson line. It could very have been Thomas Jefferson's brother, Randolph, who was known to have socialized with the Monticello slaves.

[noamnety]

53. Nonetheless

the OP's representation of it (which you have now adopted in your wording of your subject line) is offensive, regardless of who you believe was the rapist.

Ditto for the OP's conclusion that it's a good thing for our country that the media wasn't around to hold Jefferson accountable for raping a woman.

[brentspeak]

58. Did I or didn't....

use the word "culprit" in my post?

[noamnety]

59. It wasn't the word "culprit" I was commenting on.

Your subject line referred to Jefferson as "sleeping with" the woman (or not), rather than raping the woman.

I was objecting to the use of "slept with" as a euphemism for rape.

[marmar]

25. "yet we still have a Free Country..."

Do we? ...... Or do we have the illusion of a free country?

[symbolman]

26. Sorry

force of habit, I actually fought for America during Vietnam, guess the Oath I upheld has nothing to do with the country Bush has created, slimed..

Old habits die hard :)

[noamnety]

28. I'm not so convinced the oath you took

had much to do with fighting in Vietnam.

It was the same country back then as it is now - Bush didn't create that.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

41. Bush didn't create it. He has just taken it further, more openly than his predecessors.

Our country ceased to be a free country a very long time. There has just been a lot of PR drumming it into our collective heads that we are the greatest country on this planet.

[JVS]

29. It was no free country for that slave.

[fascisthunter]

33. I Certainly will Not Condemn the Man

now someone like Bush, whose actions led to deaths around the World, that person I will condemn. I think people have legitimate gripes with Edwards actions, but I also think many are full of shit and just trying to stir the pot for other reasons.

We know the Republicans are trying to use this against the Democratic Party as a whole. I could care less if Edwards wore diapers at night, as long as he fights for the common man. His personal problems are his and have no bearing on what type of statesman he is.

PS - one issue is worthy of anger, and that is his hypocritical stance on gay marriage. That does effect the common man/woman in a negative manner.

[Truth4Justice]

34. "Freedom isnt free". But then the US is no longer a free country. Edwards can kiss my @$$!

[smoogatz]

38. I dunno. For me, this whole sordid episode confirms my suspicion

that Edwards is a self-serving twit. It's not about morality; it's not even about character. It's about judgment, and a politician's ability to make the right decisions under duress. Edwards is 0 for 3 in that regard, IMO.

[suston96]

40. History.......

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

Martha Jefferson, his wife, died in 1782.

http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/jefferson/section3.rhtml

Not sure, but I don't think Jefferson cheated on his wife who died, as indicated, in 1782. The Hemings children were born long after that date.

[Solon]

45. I don't think cheating was an issue there, but rather rape...

at least how its defined today. No I don't think that Jefferson necessarily forced himself on his slave, but she was HIS slave, she couldn't have been capable of giving consent, period. Even if he was a "gentleman" and asked kindly, could she have said no, and suffer no consequences? Of course, back then, this wasn't even a legal issue, she belonged to him, completely, and therefore he broke no law, on a moral level, on the other hand, it was abhorrent.

[suston96]

49. I need to know more about the relationship between them before I call it rape......nt

[Solon]

50. Not really, she was still his slave after the relationship was started...

that's enough, by itself to call it rape, they were not mutually consenting adults, she simply didn't have a choice. It doesn't really matter what he did, but what matters was whether the relationship could have been equal, and it wasn't.

[suston96]

52. I strongly condemn the slavery issue but I feel that such a prolonged relationship.....

....had more going on than just a master-slave connection.

There is a wealth of history on line regarding this matter but it needs looking into.

[goddess40]

46. These affair go to show how much farther women's rights need to go

that we are so willing to discount the broken promises these men made to the person who was supposed to be the most important person in their life. Granted what they stand for is much more important to the world at large but this says a lot about how they view womens value.

[itsrobert]

57. Wasn't Jefferson's wife already dead at the times of the affair, rape, whatever it was?

Don't know if that makes a difference.