Breaking on BBC - UN Secretary General says the US must obey ICJ decisions

[malaise]

and the execution in Texas must not go ahead.
Over to you Bush and Perry.

Edit headline

[elehhhhna]

1. or else what?

[malaise]

5. Hopefully they'll lock up Bush in China

A lady can dream right!

[tedoll78]

6. Or else they'll issue-forth a strongly-worded memo!

Tremble at the threat of a strongly-worded memo!

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. A strongly worded memo

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. They picked the wrong case to get their panties in a bunch over

Let's see...the scumbag killed two little girls in Texas, a place with a reputation for exacting revenge on people like that, and Texas is supposed to cower to...who, exactly?

Don't think so.

[hlthe2b]

14. Because you or I may need access to our Consulate if ever

we should end up in trouble overseas. This case sets a precedent that is very dangerous. It is not over whether or not the guy is guilty. He should have been allowed access to the Mexican consulate and he was not. That needs to be litigated. He can not be executed now, (although I have little doubt he will be).

[malaise]

15. Bingo n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. What would access to the consulate get him?

If I go to another country and decide to, oh, rape and kill a couple of girls, I think I forfeit my right to zip over to the consulate.

[Dogtown]

24. You don't forfeit your right to contact

your consulate, merely by being accused of a crime in a foreign country. In reality, allowing him access would have done him little good at all, BUT, since his rights were violated, he might not be murdered by our rogue government. That's irony, for you.

Too bad the cops failure is going to rob you of your revenge.

The crime has nothing to do with it. If this person had been pressured to confess without being warned of his rights under ur constitution (Miranda V AZ) his conviction would be overturned for the civil rights violation.

In this case, his right to confer with the consulate was violated. And he'll probably not walk that lonely mile, yet.


It's a fact you'll need to learn to live with: Mexican nationals have rights in this country, and under international law.

[wvbygod]

31. his conviction would be overturned for the civil rights violation

Would you allow this raping killer to go free under any condition?

[Dogtown]

35. Would *I*?

It's a rather odd question, since I have no such power. Perhaps you merely think to put me on the spot, and expose me as an "apologist"?

If I were an appellate judge hearing the case, I'd agree with the UN. BTW, I never suggested anyone should be set free; I agree that this person deserves a retrial based on the civil rights violation.


And, since you're so interested in my personal philosophy: I am absolutely against any government killing any individual for any reason. From the rage expressed in your post, I assume you want revenge. Haven't a clue what personal satisfaction you'll achieve if he is executed. And I'm very glad of that.

[wvbygod]

38. I am 100% AGAINST the DP and always have been

It is too easy a way out for the people it is used on. Those that ruin other peoples
lives should never get a pleasant way out of this world. Somehow, the victims of their
hate and murder should be served by the service of the one or more that destroyed their lives.

[Dogtown]

45. Glad we can agree

even though I've taken a less visceral route.

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

41. Kudos, Dogtown, kudos...

I agree totally.

[Dogtown]

48. Tx for the prop, hlthe2b!

:hi:

[Marrah_G]

43. You realize he has lived here all his life right....he was not a just visiting.

Medellin was the first of the gang to start the attack, grabbing Elizabeth, who then cried out for help from her friend. Testimony showed that Jenny had gotten free and could have run away but returned to Elizabeth when she cried out for Jenny to help her. The confessions of the gang members that were used at trial indicated that there was never less than 2 men on each of the girls at any one time and that the girls were repeatedly raped orally, anally and vaginally for the entire hour. One of the gang members later said during the brag session that by the time he got to one of the girls, "she was loose and sloppy." Medellin boasted of having "virgin blood" on on his underpants.<6>


The 14-year-old juvenile later testified that he had gone back and forth between his brother and Peter Cantu since they were the only ones there that he really knew and kept urging them to leave. He said he was told repeatedly by Peter Cantu to "get some". He raped Jennifer and was later sentenced to 40 years for aggravated sexual assault, which was the maximum sentence for a juvenile.

After the rapes, the gang members took Jenny and Elizabeth from the clearing into a wooded area, leaving the juvenile behind, saying he was "too little to watch". Jenny was strangled with the belt of Sean O'Brien, with two murderers pulling, one on each side, until the belt broke. Part of the belt was left at the murder scene, the rest was found in O'Brien's home. After the belt broke, the killers used her own shoelaces to finish their job. Medellin later complained that "the bitch wouldn't die" and that it would have been "easier with a gun". Elizabeth was also strangled with her shoelaces, after crying and begging the gang members not to kill them; she began bargaining, offering to give them her phone number so they could get together again.

The medical examiner testified that Elizabeth's two front teeth were knocked out of her brutalized mouth before she died and that two of Jennifer's ribs were broken after she had died. Testimony showed that the girls' bodies were kicked and their necks were stomped on after the strangulations in order to "make sure that they were really dead."

The juvenile pled guilty to his charge andthe other five were tried for capital murder in Harris County, Texas, convicted and sentenced to death.

[Dogtown]

76. Monster, no doubt,

but doesn't change the reality that his rights were violated.

Once again, for those who only are concerned about deriving some emotional satisfaction (either from recounting the events or relishing the revenge), we owe the condemned a new trial. He broke the rules. So did the police.

The crime was heinous, the facts certain, the conviction clear. Why then is there a problem with repeating the trial after ensuring the convicted are accorded their rights?


I'm very surprised nobody has unconsciously echoed Callahan in this thread.

:eye:

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. The central facts are that he did it, and one way or another he's done

That's OK by me. He's a murderer. He's off the streets. I don't care if they kill him or not.

The UN will just have to order an extra case of burgundy, walk a few more checks at Le Bernardin, and get over it.

The rest is just talk - you and I, as convicted murderers of Mexican citizens in Mexico, would never see the light of day
again, and no one would utter even a popcorn fart on our behalf.

[hlthe2b]

39. Have you never contemplated being "falsely" accused? Hmmm?

Geebus.... (and NO, I'm not saying this guy was falsely accused or innocent), but he should have had access to his consulate. It is an International agreement that we signed onto long ago.

[Dreamer Tatum]

50. Then I want access to the German consulate when I decide to kill people

I'm a sixth-generation American, but so what. I can say a couple of words in German.

When I kill, I want EVERY right accorded to me, including a pair of plastic wings if they need to fly me somewhere.

[hlthe2b]

52. Are you an American Citizen? If you were a German National

you would be accorded that right. What part of that can you not comprehend?

[Dreamer Tatum]

56. The part I can't comprehend is...

...the amount of drool I have to swim through on this site from those who clearly want the guy set free
because it would poke Texas in the eye and score one for the UN.

Let's face it: that's the real issue.

[hlthe2b]

58. NO ONE here is suggesting he be freed.. That is your own

ignorant projection.

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. Actually, I believe a LOT of people are SUGGESTING he be set free.

They just aren't SAYING it.

After all, we're talking about Texas here.

[hlthe2b]

68. Mind reader?

:eyes:

[Dreamer Tatum]

70. Just a feeling I have.

Could be wrong; I frequently am.

[Indenturedebtor]

61. What if you were wrongly accused? Laws are not there to protect the guilty

They're there to protect the innocent who might otherwise "appear" guilty.

[Dreamer Tatum]

67. Point taken. In this instance, however, I don't think it would have changed the outcome

For the record, I don't care if he's put to death or not. I just don't want him to become the poster
child for abused international rights. He's a murderer, plain and simple.

[Indenturedebtor]

75. I agree with you n/t

[Marrah_G]

42. You realize he lived here all his life right? He is using this as a loop hole.

He is conveniently a Mexican national only after confessing to a truly horrifying double gang rape and murder of 2 young girls.

[hlthe2b]

46. International Law and agreements are not conditional

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the death penalty, but Texas law enforcement f_ked up in denying him access when made aware that he was a Mexican National. This issue needs to be heard by the courts, who may choose to give him a new trial or to sustain the original judgement and let the death penalty proceed. The point is, they want to preempt that process and just kill him, despite having denied him access as per International Law.

You know, I don't believe our participation in things like say, the Geneva Conventions or other international laws and agreements are conditional on our "feeling like it." But, it seems SOME do....:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

51. The degree of the technicality should be weighed against the heinousness of the crime

...and of course, some people here weigh them about equally.
Whatever.

[hlthe2b]

54. Yup... can't wait to hear your justification for our acts of torture....

just a technicality, after all. Abu Ghraib was full of them there "technocalities."

[Dreamer Tatum]

57. "Hey! Look over there! Something worse!"

Nice Hail Mary there, but stay focused, please.

[hlthe2b]

59. You have the problem. THis issue is International Law violation

Something YOU seem to advocate if you deem it nothing more than a technocality.

[Dreamer Tatum]

64. Technocality? Nice band name.

It IS a technicality, though. I just don't think it's an important one. He would be where he is now had he
had access to the consulate. That is the definition of a technicality: should he be retried based on something
that wouldn't have changed the outcome? I don't think so.

[hlthe2b]

66. thanks for catching my typo

Time to move on, though.

[Marrah_G]

53. Well- you may be right

It's going to be quite a mess with every illegal immigrant in our jails now requesting to see their consulate. The Mexican Government alone would need it's own taskforce just to keep up.

As long as it isn't used as a loop-hole to go free, I can see your point.

What a fucking mess.

I would never want to see those monsters released though. Even if they were sent back to Mexico, they would simply return and do it all over again.

Medellin was the first of the gang to start the attack, grabbing Elizabeth, who then cried out for help from her friend. Testimony showed that Jenny had gotten free and could have run away but returned to Elizabeth when she cried out for Jenny to help her. The confessions of the gang members that were used at trial indicated that there was never less than 2 men on each of the girls at any one time and that the girls were repeatedly raped orally, anally and vaginally for the entire hour. One of the gang members later said during the brag session that by the time he got to one of the girls, "she was loose and sloppy." Medellin boasted of having "virgin blood" on on his underpants.<6>


The 14-year-old juvenile later testified that he had gone back and forth between his brother and Peter Cantu since they were the only ones there that he really knew and kept urging them to leave. He said he was told repeatedly by Peter Cantu to "get some". He raped Jennifer and was later sentenced to 40 years for aggravated sexual assault, which was the maximum sentence for a juvenile.

After the rapes, the gang members took Jenny and Elizabeth from the clearing into a wooded area, leaving the juvenile behind, saying he was "too little to watch". Jenny was strangled with the belt of Sean O'Brien, with two murderers pulling, one on each side, until the belt broke. Part of the belt was left at the murder scene, the rest was found in O'Brien's home. After the belt broke, the killers used her own shoelaces to finish their job. Medellin later complained that "the bitch wouldn't die" and that it would have been "easier with a gun". Elizabeth was also strangled with her shoelaces, after crying and begging the gang members not to kill them; she began bargaining, offering to give them her phone number so they could get together again.

The medical examiner testified that Elizabeth's two front teeth were knocked out of her brutalized mouth before she died and that two of Jennifer's ribs were broken after she had died. Testimony showed that the girls' bodies were kicked and their necks were stomped on after the strangulations in order to "make sure that they were really dead."

The juvenile pled guilty to his charge andthe other five were tried for capital murder in Harris County, Texas, convicted and sentenced to death.

[hlthe2b]

55. Agree... But I have not heard anyone suggesting he should be

freed...

[Marrah_G]

60. His lawyers are trying to use it to get the case over-turned.

[hlthe2b]

62. Overturning the case does not FREE him. He would be retried.

[Marrah_G]

71. Hopefully.

They want the conviction and sentence vacated.

Medellin subsequently filed appeals arguing that his conviction and sentence should be vacated as a remedy for the authorities’ violation of his rights under Article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations (“VCCR”).

Can they even retry after that? Or would it just be a case of 50 criminals finding a convenient loophole created by their own unlawful activities?

It seems to me that if this does go through there will be a half million more calls for convictions and sentences to be vacated.

The authorities did not call the Mexican authorities, but the guy was obviously nt prevented from doing so when he realized it could possibly get him out of the sentence.

[hlthe2b]

73. Many a sentence has been vacated only to result in conviction

after a new trial. But here, it appears they are only asking for his sentence to be vacated and not his conviction.

[spanone]

2. k&r

[marmar]

3. Is there a funny-looking man with a big bushy silly-looking moustache....

.... and a foul disposition standing outside the UN with an AK-47 right now?

[Bolo Boffin]

LOL! nt

[dkf]

4. Execution in Texas?

What is going on there?

[malaise]

8. This

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7542794.stm
<snip>
A Mexican man whose case has drawn international legal attention is set to be executed in Texas for the rape and murder of a 16-year-old girl.

Barring a last-minute stay, Jose Medellin will face lethal injection at 6pm local time (2300 GMT).

The International Court of Justice had ruled that Medellin was entitled to a new hearing as he was not told of his right to contact a consular official.

Texas says its courts are not bound by the rulings of the ICJ.

[Marrah_G]

47. Two girls: Here is the story

Medellin was the first of the gang to start the attack, grabbing Elizabeth, who then cried out for help from her friend. Testimony showed that Jenny had gotten free and could have run away but returned to Elizabeth when she cried out for Jenny to help her. The confessions of the gang members that were used at trial indicated that there was never less than 2 men on each of the girls at any one time and that the girls were repeatedly raped orally, anally and vaginally for the entire hour. One of the gang members later said during the brag session that by the time he got to one of the girls, "she was loose and sloppy." Medellin boasted of having "virgin blood" on on his underpants.<6>


The 14-year-old juvenile later testified that he had gone back and forth between his brother and Peter Cantu since they were the only ones there that he really knew and kept urging them to leave. He said he was told repeatedly by Peter Cantu to "get some". He raped Jennifer and was later sentenced to 40 years for aggravated sexual assault, which was the maximum sentence for a juvenile.

After the rapes, the gang members took Jenny and Elizabeth from the clearing into a wooded area, leaving the juvenile behind, saying he was "too little to watch". Jenny was strangled with the belt of Sean O'Brien, with two murderers pulling, one on each side, until the belt broke. Part of the belt was left at the murder scene, the rest was found in O'Brien's home. After the belt broke, the killers used her own shoelaces to finish their job. Medellin later complained that "the bitch wouldn't die" and that it would have been "easier with a gun". Elizabeth was also strangled with her shoelaces, after crying and begging the gang members not to kill them; she began bargaining, offering to give them her phone number so they could get together again.

The medical examiner testified that Elizabeth's two front teeth were knocked out of her brutalized mouth before she died and that two of Jennifer's ribs were broken after she had died. Testimony showed that the girls' bodies were kicked and their necks were stomped on after the strangulations in order to "make sure that they were really dead."

The juvenile pled guilty to his charge andthe other five were tried for capital murder in Harris County, Texas, convicted and sentenced to death.

[AngryAmish]

7. Problem is Bush has no power to stop it

[wtmusic]

9. Oh come on.

Bush has no power in Texas?

One phone call would stop it.

[Jack Rabbit]

10. True

On the other hand, Texas is not responsible for its foreign policy.

[TexasObserver]

12. Texas will ignore the UN, as it has ignored the World Court.

So will Bush and the feds.

Tonight at 6 PM, he will be executed in Huntsville, Texas.

I am personally opposed to death penalty, irrespective of the crime, although this one did shock the conscience. There's no doubt he raped and brutally murdered two young girls.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Ehhhhhh, I Just Read The Story. He's The Type The DP Is For.

What absolutely brutal killings.

If his guilt was in question I'd be supportive. But it isn't. It's just some technicality. I'm kinda indifferent to it based on that.

[seemslikeadream]

17. These are brutal killings

What should we do with bush?

[leftchick]

18. send him to The Hague?

for a start? :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Nice One Track Mind You've Got There. Feel Free To Start Your Own Thread And Ask There.

See, you might not have noticed, but in this thread we're kinda like talking bout someone else and stuff.

[seemslikeadream]

23. I thouth it was about brutal killings and the DP ** ONE TRACK**

TIT FOR TAT?


GOOSE FOR GANDER, YA KNOW?


WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST FOR MASS MURDERS OMC?

IS THIS MORE BRUTAL THAT WHAT BUSH HAS DONE?


BUSH GETS AWAY WITH MASS MURDER AND THIS GUY HANGS?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. You Must Have A Really Hard Time Reading. You Want To Discuss That, Start Your Own Thread.

Not sure what's so hard to grasp about that.

This thread is about a specific individual facing the DP. My response was directed towards that individual. If you don't like discussing that individual but would rather talk about completely different people, feel free to start your own thread and I'll respond to you there.

As it relates to this one, try and stick on topic will ya (which is the specific person in the OP)? Geez, such a one track mind.

[seemslikeadream]

26. ONE TRACK DP

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Such A Limited Mind...

[seemslikeadream]

29. Good to you yourself so well

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. I've Stayed On Topic. You Seem Incapable Of Doing So. It's Almost Laughable.

"What about bush? What about bush? What about bushhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!????????!!!!!111111??????"

Who gives a fuck. We ain't talkin bout bush kid. Learn how to stick to context. You appear to be stuck in one track mind mode with walls so thick that you can't step out of your little "what about bushhhhh!!!!!??????1111" box. Go find a thread about bush. Ya want to discuss my response to the OP? Then stick to the case and the details of that case that are within the OP. But I'm bettin my money on you being incapable of doing so, without wanting to compare it to something or someone else, seeing as your mind seems to be stuck in one gear and all.

[seemslikeadream]

34. You call staying on topic harassing me because you think I am not staying on topic?

WHAT A LAUGH




WHAT YOU THINK


Go find your amusement elsewhere

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. ROFLMAO At Harrassing!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're a hoot!

One of my favorite sources for nonsensical entertainment!

[seemslikeadream]

40. Tell us something we do not know OMC

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Why Should I? You'd Probably Just Respond With "Yeah, But What About Bush?????111!!!!???"

:rofl:

[seemslikeadream]

63. And you would respond with your normal

LOK AT ME LOOK AT ME IT'S ALL ABOUT ME ME ME

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. You're Projecting.

Once again, I was on topic in this thread. It was you that was stuck in me me me land, hanging on for dear life to your little pet topic though it wasn't germane to the OP.

Nice try kid. :hi:

[seemslikeadream]

72. You are the master of that projecting thing OMC

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Oh snap.

:rofl:

[seemslikeadream]

36. How many times shall we hang bush and cheney?

:hi:

[Wizard777]

19. What's he gonna do about it? Kofi said we commited a War Crime after our Invasion of Iraq.

So there's another member of the International Piss, Moan, Whine, and Groan Society heard from.

[cobalt1999]

20. Or what will he do?

Besides, the UN Secretary General should know enough about our legal system to know this is not a Federal case but a State case. The Secretary General should know there are limits to the federal powers in state legal cases under our system of government.

Besides, why pick a case that will have no public sympathy, no question of guilt, no chance of success?

Does the UN just want to look powerless, or is this a case where they are trying to push the US?

[Solly Mack]

30. about like the US govt. obeyed the Geneva Conventions

[wvbygod]

32. Maybe the UN and its ICJ should visit mugabee or iran again too

So many crimes so little time.

[Cleita]

74. The Bush administration pays as much attention to the UN as it does to

Congress. Well, at least they are on record. Did you forget a link to the story or something?

[Freddie Stubbs]

77. Actually, the Bush administration has sided with the UN on this issue, but

lacked the ability to tell the state of Texas what to do in this matter.

[Wizard777]

78. They done did it! He's dead.