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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:54 AM
Original message
How Much Tylenol #3 Does It Take To Kill Oneself?.......
We have acetaminophen and codeine to deal with here. Which was it that did Ivins in? or was it the combination?
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. I know someone who killed himself with OTC Tylenol.
He took a large bottle of it. It took him two weeks to die. Horrible.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Right, Tylenol by itself is not a good way to die
because it kills by liver failure and takes a very long time. It's a horrible way to go, something a researcher would know.

It's remotely possible that he could have kept enough of the codeine down to do the job efficiently, but seriously, an aspirin overdose would have made much more sense.

Add to this the stunning news that there is no autopsy--something that is required by law in all cases of unexpected death--and the whole thing stinks out loud.

Do I have the answers? No. I do have a lot of highly appropriate questions.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. The person I know was an alcoholic, also...
So his liver was probably in bad shape to begin with.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. I've never seen one succeed
although I've seen a few put on the transplant list. Even they managed to heal well enough to survive, at least short term if they avoided drinking and most medications.

People get so violently sick from the Tylenol that they scream for help. Remember, they want the pain to end, not punish themselves through projectile vomiting for several weeks.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. This person was found in the hospital parking lot...
So he obviously wanted help after he took the Tylenol. His limbs became gangrenous before he died.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It's a horrible way to go and I wouldn't wish it on anybody
not even Cheney.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. The lack of autopsy is what bothers me. I always thought it was
mandated by law too! How are they getting around that, or is this just another example of Shrub rule?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's a horrible way to die.
I believe the acetomenophen part leads to liver failure first, then a slow and painful death. Maybe the Codene helps, but the OTC stuff is horrible.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Probably the codeine, but he would have died within weeks from the tylenol
The initial liver damage from the tylenol was probably lethal but he wouldn't be dead from it until a few days later.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, was he found dead, or did he die after several days in the hospital?
Depends on when he was found after taking the meds--if he was found dead, then it's likely the codeine suppressed his respiratory center. If he regained consciousness but died a couple days later, then it was overwhelming hepatotoxicity from the Tylenol. If he was not responsive at all, then it's likely the respiratory suppression caused lack of oxygen and severe brain damage, and the liver damage was just along for the ride.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Maybe this will help, not sure how much is in a tablet of Tylenol
Acetaminophen Maximun Dosage
Question: What is the toxic dosage of the acetaminophen? How many tablets are safe to take? What is the Lethal dosage? Also, If your tolerance increases, and you feel no effect from your current dose, Is it safe to increase or is the lethal dose the same regardless of your tolerance?

Answer: The daily limit of acetaminophen varies by weight and size. Some patients will experinece liver toxicity at lower doses than others. 10-15 gms can be hepatoxic and greater than 20 gm are potentially fatal. We usually don't recommend more than 3 gm a day. Higher sustained doses would require occasional liver function tests. Your tolerance to acetaminophen does not change. Your tolerance and ability to handle narcotics does. If you need more pain relief, increase the narcotics, not the acetaminophen.

http://druginfonet.com/index.php?pageID=faq/new/DRUG_FA...

Codeine TOXICITY: Symptoms of codeine toxicity include unconsciousness and convulsions. Death is from respiratory failure and occurs in 2-4 hours. The lethal adult dose can be 0.5-1.0 g. Lethal plasma concentration is 200 ng/mL. Naloxone is used as an antidote.

http://www.sdrl.com/druglist/codeine.html
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. I researched overdose amounts for a monologue I wrote years ago.
Title: "Seventy-two Doriden Isn't Enough". One prescription of anything is not enough to kill you. You can do it with OTC acetaminophen but it is a slow death taking days to achieve.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
8. Depends on your weight, age, and health
None the less you would have to take a lot. The codeine if taken in large enough
amounts would slow down lung function so as to cause other organ failure.

BTW I don't believe the Govt. story on this case .... and CNN is being used "to sell
the lie" 24/7 ...... The man was scientist he could have found a much better way
to "off himself," I read that he was a Catholic who thought that suicide was a mortal
sin, and why no autopsy?
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. A scientist would not chose to die this way.
A Catholic who believed in mortal sin wouldn't do it either. No autopsy--that's the proof.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The man worked in a chem lab
cyanide? 15 to 60 seconds

arsenic also is damn fast too ....

Also really good chance if you took that many pills and his G.I. track was functioning
he would have thrown up ...... The story stinks.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. He had been suspended from the chem lab, so he no longer had access.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. You might be right but a trip to the hardware or garden store ....
.... and you can get some nice a lethel "stuff." But the no autopsy
side of things is a big red flag.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Any method he chose would have people saying "No WAY he would have chosen that."
There are flags for me, as well. Just not the method.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. What if he was running w/ Scissors and then jumped off a bridge .....
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 11:54 AM by Botany
... over liquid metal and shot himself on the way down?

The biggest flags for me is the way that CNN is now reporting the story ...
somebody is trying to control and manipulate the information ... it is all
just too clean and too neat. Also if so many other people hadn't killed
themselves or wound up dead who were a "problem" to bush & comapny ....
we are way beyond the point of random chance.

Also the no autopsy thing sticks out like a sore thumb.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I don't understand the comment about "random chance"
I mean, the suicide wasn't random chance, the anthrax attack wasn't random chance, there's nothing random about choosing Tylenol with Codeine as a suicide method. I'm not sure what you meant.

As for CNN's reporting, they are lousy journalists. I don't learn anything from them other than what their corporate sponsors allow me to know. Of course someone is manipulating the information--the government always manipulates the information. They do it routinely. They are so used to lying they don't even wonder if they should tell the truth now and then. And there are so many reasons, ranging from hiding involvement in government plots to some mid-level beauracrat trying to protect his pension. We can't learn anything by just learning that they are lying. They always lie.

Even if he killed himself, that doesn't mean he was guilty, or that he wasn't pushed to it.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Not just Ivans but so many of these suicides have happened that ...
.... I think random chance is out the window .... Causality

Ray Lemme
David Kelly
all those connected to the movement of the nuclear weapons from N. Dakota to
Louisiana
the D.C. Madman
James Skillings
Jim Web's aid


All of these deaths helped to tie up any loose ends that might cause problems for
bush & company. The anthrax was known to have come from Ft. Die trick, MD in
November of 2001 and yet the story was still being pushed of "weaponized anthrax"
being made in Iraq clear up till after the war started. Now Ivans might have been
the source of the Anthrax but I doubt he acted alone and this whole thing looks like
"they" are trying to clean things up.

As for CNN's reporting of this story .... Pravada would be proud.

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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Right now some spook is smacking him/herself in the forehead
saying, "Why didn't we think of that!"
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I have a long line of Catholic relatives who prove otherwise.
Mental illness is heavy in my mother's family. We've had suicides and attempted suicides ranging from Aspirin overdoses to self-immolation. And they are all Catholic--that branch of the family has yielded at least a priest and a nun. About the only time my grandmother wasn't in church was when she was in the hospital.

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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. I did not take mental illness into account when I made my statement.
Do we know for sure whether Ivins was mentally ill, or was he just driven around the bend by constant surveillance? I know he was in therapy and his therapist took out a restraining order, but I'm not (yet) convinced that the therapist complaint isn't part of the set up.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. About half a bottle of extra strength over the counter would do it. (50-60 500mg tablets)
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jkshaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. From the description of the tablets he took --
Tylenol and codeine -- it sounds to me like Lortab5 or Lortab7. Lortab5 is hydrocodon and my husband is still taking it after an operation on one of his vertebra to clear out calcium deposits due to arthritis. The doctor says he's not up to another operation -- his back is hurting badly again -- and prescribed Lortab5 or hydrocodon so he can do some physical work. I think the 5 stands for 500mg. It's very well controlled, monitored in his case by the doctor, so I imagine it can be used for something like suicide. Still, as posters have said on this thread, there should have been an autopsy and the findings reported on in the MSM. Such as it is.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. No, the 5 stands for 5 mg. of hydrocodone
and the tablets are typically 500 mg. of Tylenol. Lortab 7.5 has 7.5 mg. of hydrocodone.

Lortab would certainly be a more efficient suicide option than the much weaker Tylenol #3.

It would still be a nasty, vomitous way to go.

Yes, there should have been an autopsy. One was required by law.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. It's a pretty common way to commit suicide. And it's irreversible.
You can overdose on Tylenol, and even if they find you you will likely die within a couple of days. So if he wanted to be sure...

Just googling around: Acute Tylenol overdose probably kills more people each year than any other drug. High levels of acetiminophen the main ingredient in Tylenol will cause liver failure and death. I work as a nurse in an emergency room and in 5 years in the ER have seen more deaths from Tylenol than any other prescription or street drug. The really sad part is that liver failure can take several days to kill you sometimes, and there is nothing that can be done to reverse it. So the person is alive and regrets taking the overdose but has to face the reality that they are going to die in a matter of days and nothing can be done.

----------

Plus, the codeine would have probably shut down the respiratory system before the Tylenol.

I have no idea what the truth behind the Ivins story is, but you're barking up the wrong tree by exploring whether he could have OD'd on Tylenol, or whether he would have. It's common and easy.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Acetaminophen poisoning IS reversible, to an extent--Mucomyst is used
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 01:17 PM by wienerdoggie
to counteract the hepatotoxicity, and there's an IV agent that they use as well. But it has to be done in a timely manner.

on edit--the IV antidote is also mucomyst--N-acetylcysteine
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. Very common way to commit suicide in Europe.
Effect varies with the condition of your liver, but it's not very much.

mar
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
24. see mainer's post on this thread:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. I agree that the codeine was the thing that knocked this guy down, BUT
just giving him Narcan may not have been enough to reverse him, depending on when he was discovered--if this man's respiratory center and airway-protective reflexes were so knocked out from the codeine for a long enough time, then his brain would have suffered permanent damage from hypoxia, and an excessive buildup of CO2 (which causes brain swelling)--either he simply was not breathing adequately, or he aspirated vomit (thus interfering with gas exchange), or both. An overwhelming combination of hypoxic brain injury and liver failure is probably not going to be reversed. It was just too late for this guy.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. yea, Narcan may have had limited use, and mainer concedes that it depends on when he was discovered
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Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
31. My brother is a nurse in a trauma unit.
He said there really isn't much they can do for you if you've taken a bunch of Tylenol but try to make you comfortable which is very hard. He said it is a horrible way to go.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. They pump your stomach after more than the rec'd amount of Acetaminohen
A person's daughter I know downed a handful in college, and she was rushed to the campus hospital, was given charcoal syrup (?) whatever they give you.

It causes kidney and liver damage in excess amounts.
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Randypiper Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. Why didn't he use anthrax?
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. tylenol toxicity and mucomyst
From the RxMed site:

"As an Antidote for Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Poisoning: In the case of an overdosage of acetaminophen, acetylcysteine should be administered immediately if 24 hours or less have elapsed from the reported time of ingestion. To be effective in protecting against severe liver damage, therapy with acetylcysteine must be started within 10 hours of acetaminophen ingestion. There is some evidence of progressively diminished efficacy thereafter, possibly lasting up to 24 hours.

It should be borne in mind that after a fatal dose of acetaminophen, the patient may appear relatively well initially and may even continue normal activities for a day or two before the onset of hepatic failure."

----------------

So doctors had a window of ten hours to treat him after ingestion of a fatal dose of tylenol. They almost certainly had enough time to give him the mucomyst and head off hepatic failure -- assuming they had an empty pill bottle to tell them what he'd ingested. And assuming there was no medical incompetence involved. He was found unconscious at home, which was most likely from the more precipitous opioid effects of the codeine.

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