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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:28 PM
Original message
Why accept students or immigrants from China if ...
the government of China now controls Hong Kong, Tibet, etc?

China has more territory than in the past, not less. Why does the US have to provide territory for the population of China while the government of China mismanages an increasing share of the world's territory?
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. FAIL.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I guess you're not the DU member who recommended this thread?
Unless I'm mistaken, every US embassy in China is legally on US soil even if the little bit of land is surrounded by Chinese territory.

Why not try to negotiate an expansion of such US territory in China in exchange for maintaining current levels of movement of students and immigrants from China to the US?
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do we really have to explain why being anti-immigration is bad?
Perhaps we should have refused entry to people escaping Soviet Russia?

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I assumed that "mainegreen" was the username of an individual person.
How many of you are sharing the mainegreen account?
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Oh please. Ask the loungers. They can assure you I am one person.
Your post is still crap, though.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because we don't believe that ostracizing students does anything good.
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 12:34 PM by TexasObserver
We have foreign students because it's good for them and good for us.

Your point of view is very jingoistic, and fails to acknowledge that the bigger threat to the world today, in terms of imperialism, is by far the US, not China. You seem to think our conduct is good and that of China's is terrible.

I don't agree with many things the Chinese do as policy, but barring their students is simply asinine.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Japan used to be an imperialistic threat.
If the jingoists in Japan had allied with China and saved Japanese aggression for more distant places, then the population of China could have helped Japan become a bigger threat to the world. Do you like to see big threats become bigger because you enjoy living in chaotic times?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. When you can pose rational questions, get back to me.
Or do you just enjoying babbling without purpose?

You started this thread. You asked whether we should bar Chinese students because of Chinese hegemony over Hong Kong and Tibet. I gave you a rational answer. Now you want to talk about the imperialism of Japan prior to 1945.

You have a lot very poorly thought out positions, and worse, you like to start threads about those poorly conceived notions. You should consider spending more time thinking and less time starting threads.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Does "rational question" mean the same as "valid question" of Randism/Objectivism?
Scroll up and you'll observe that I asked "Why (...)", not "Should we bar (...)"
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. You don't read any better than you write.
I said get back to me when ....

I didn't say "please continue with more of the same nonsense."

This is the reason no one here takes your threads seriously. You babble ignorantly and excessively.
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Riktor Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
60. Here's WHY
1) Taking people from China and educating them here gives them the opportunity to learn about the United States and its people, and thus shattering any notions impressed upon them by a heavily propagandized government.

2) Educating people from China builds academic networks. As those networks strengthen, academics in the United States and China become mutually interdependent, and mutually interdependent nations do not go to war.

3) Social reconstruction needs the support of an educated middle or upper class in order to succeed. Educating Chinese students in the United States gives them a taste for freedoms that are not afforded to them in their native land. With any luck, they will take what they've learned of a relatively open society back to their homeland and seek to enact changes.



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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Absolutely correct!!
I didn't really figure the thread author wanted to hear the rational, ordinary reasons for bringing foreign students here to study.

What better way to let them come to understand who we really are? It is impossible to live and study in another culture without understanding that the basic hopes of dreams of families and individuals is similar the world wide. When we can bring young people here to study, most of them will be very positively impacted by it. They will learn about Americans, and go home to their countries with real knowledge of us, not the caricatures they might otherwise envision of us.

The same applies for US students studying in foreign countries. Knowledge helps erase fears, since most are based upon ignorance or disinformation.
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, it's time to bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act
:sarcasm:

:eyes:
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I'm talking about a bargaining chip for land negotiations.
Perhaps you prefer the traditional historical method of establishing borders: warfare?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. You're saying Hong Kong should be returned to the British?
Interesting.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
62. You really think
it's at all possible for the USA to land grab in CHINA?????


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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because China owns us?
Same reason Fuckface will go to Beijing for the opening ceremonies of this farce known as the Olympics. They own us, hold all our IOUs, and if they were to call in our debt, they'd make the United States a small piece of history.

We'll be dancing to whatever tune the Chinese care to play for many generations, thanks to the miserable policies of Fuckface and his gang of thugs.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Nah
They own us, hold all our IOUs, and if they were to call in our debt, they'd make the United States a small piece of history.

They couldn't do that without ruining their own economy (and the economies of most of their other trading partners) too. For better or for worse, we are tightly bound to China economically.

I don't fear that they'll call in the debt and obliterate us. I fear that the debt will continue to mount until we are basically nothing but consuming slaves, and our civil rights have been lessened even more due to our two bound societies and economies starting to move toward each other and find a balance.

I'm not interested in moving toward China, politically. Imagine America's consumerist, pop-culture hell WITHOUT any civil rights to go with it, and that's China. Ick.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Another humor-impaired being misses it
Who on earth would ever think that "calling the debt" would take place?

Time to watch some Three Stooges, and try to lighten up.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Go learn some finance and economics before you bleat
China CAN'T "call its debt," and even if it could, it would be like putting a loaded gun to their head and pulling the trigger. I'd explain the details to you, but I don't want to ruin a genuine learning experience for you.

And I suspect it would really fry your noodle to learn that China has less of a lien on the US than does Japan, but it's true.

:eyes:
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Lighten up
That was a joke, so relax.

My goodness, but you humor-impaired people are tiresome.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
52. I get all visceral when people talk about countries calling debt
Reflects a profound level of ignorance that can't be disguised by indignance, but that doesn't stop people from trying.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. The Chinese government is one of the worst on the planet. Other than that, you are wrong
about everything you posted.

The Japanese and Saudis both hold far more of our debt than the Chinese. China does not hold any "IOUs", they own US treasury bonds which are exactly the same (except for denomination) as those you can buy. They are not loans and cannot be "called in", they have a set interest rate and term of maturity.

In fact, if our economy tanks we will drag theirs down with us as they have pegged the Yuan to the USD in order to avoid the hyper-inflation that should accompany their all too rapid expansion.



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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. I surrender
There's a serious dearth of lightness here.

I surrender to your superiority of intellect, so obvious here (ahem), but I grieve for the startling and sad lack of a sense of humor.

Pity.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Keep your day job. Re-read your reply with the fore-knowledge that you were
joking and still didn't smile.

Sorry, it just wasn't funny. Far too many people are completely clueless on these issues and I have had endless arguments with people that do believe what you wrote.




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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Ever wonder why you have
"endless arguments"?

Yeah, exactly.

As I said, "Pity."
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. So you totally miss, or ignore, the part about these idiots actually believing
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 08:33 PM by greyhound1966
what you wrote. Save your pity for yourself, I have a suspicion that you are going to need it.

Edit to answer your "question"; it is because, in spite of understanding that most ignoramuses are ignorant through choice, I just can't help trying to give them the option of leaving their ignorance behind.



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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. We owe more to Japan and Saudi Arabia than we do to China.
Our economy is indeed interdependent with that of China. If they want to ruin our economy, they can do it. If we want to ruin their economy, we can do it. (Without markets in the West, their economy could not grow.)

Fortunately, neither sees anything to gain by "beggaring thy neighbor". We have an interest in their economy prospering the same as their interest in ours.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Who said China was our only lender?
We owe so much, it's shameful. I don't see anything suggesting that China is the only entity to whom we are indebted.

Remember a thing called a "balanced budget"?
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Well, you did say that "China owns us", not that we owe too many countries
too much debt.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. We have many owners
Study up on your reading comprehension.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I yield to your superior reading comprehension. I mistook your post as directed at China.
"Because China owns us?

Same reason Fuckface will go to Beijing for the opening ceremonies of this farce known as the Olympics. They own us, hold all our IOUs, and if they were to call in our debt, they'd make the United States a small piece of history.

We'll be dancing to whatever tune the Chinese care to play for many generations, thanks to the miserable policies of Fuckface and his gang of thugs."

Upon rereading it, I don't see know how I could have misconstrued that as you singling out China rather than foreigner countries in general. ;)
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is that you Dennis Kearny?
The U.S. already tried that and the Chinese Exclusion Act was an epic fail, just like you with your fLame bait.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. "The U.S. already tried that" --> What is "that"?
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I find it hard to believe that you are really that ignorant.
That= excluding Chinese.

Learn your history and geography

Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and Tibet are all a part of China.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I like the way you slipped Taiwan in there.
Is Cuba part of Florida?
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. The losers of the respective revolutions were exiled to both Taiwan and Florida
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 01:13 PM by stimbox
That's all they have in common besides being crybabies.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Taiwan? Tibet?
Whether you take the 'China controls it now, therefore it's part of China', or the 'Historically X was part of China', I don't see how you can get Taiwan and Tibet in there. Maybe one, or maybe the other, but not both.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yes, both are historically part of China. n/t
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. So you're using the historical definition then?
Tibet, China and Taiwan are all certainly very closely entangled historically, but China as it is today has been broken up into so many subdivisions over history, that it's virtually impossible to apply a bullet proof definition of what China is 'historically'.

In reality China is what China is today; that includes Tibet, but not Taiwan. Taiwan is Taiwan, not China.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. First they bombed Pearl Harbor, now they attend our schools.
America first, dammit!
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Eh, I don't think it was the Chinese that bombed Pearl Harbor
and I suspect you knew that already!

:rofl:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Eh, they all look alike. Chinese, German, who cares...
Just as long as they ain't over here none stealing us our grad school posishuns.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. USA USA USA
:patriot:









/sarcasm
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
59. Your ignorance is appalling!
The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
The Chinese bombed Pearl Bailey.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. huh????????
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Is there any particular part of the Original Post that's creating confusion?
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No. On the contrary, your ignorance and xenophobia are crystal clear
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Co-sign. Because it's good for US. Because it enriches US. Because it makes US better.
We have students here from all over the world.

Because it's good for US. Because it enriches US. Because it makes US better.

My son teaches International Studies at a University. Many of his students are foreign. They're from all over the world, including China. He has students from Taiwan and students from China in the same class! Imagine the value of having those students to discuss the issues that come between China and Taiwan. It's enlightening for those students, and for all students in their classes.

We have foreign students from totalitarian states, and have for a long, long time. Do we stop Saudis from studying here? Pakistanis? Kuwaitis? Russians? Venezuelans?

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. The entire post has left me confused.
What does land have to do with immigrants or students?
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. I would assert that you have never met a Chinese student
since, if you had, you would realize that most are quite intelligent, nice and a real bonus to have in the country.

Ellis Island
http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island.asp

Immigrant America
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/8616001.php

As to the question of providing territory for the population of China...


saddlesore
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. To educate human beings?
"Why accept students or immigrants from China if ..."

An attempt to educate people worldwide? :shrug:

Seems like a good idea to me...


(Wasn't Hong Kong merely leased to the British-- when the lease expired, it reverted back to it's rightful owners, yes?)
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Okay, let's educate them in law and political philosophy.
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 01:34 PM by Boojatta
If they're studying science and engineering then they may simply serve to increase the power of whoever is willing to put them on the payroll.

Imagine someone like bin Laden, but with a longer-range focus. By marrying into the families of the political leadership of Afghanistan, he could have gotten the Afghan government to look the other way while he spent twenty years, without revealing his intentions or the technical progress achieved by his employees, managing the development of weapons and delivery systems that would be controlled by him and his faction.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Oh we shouldn't do that.
They might start asking what happened to the Native Americans.

Imagine somebody like Timothy McVeigh. Flibbety flibbety floo.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Actually, I think they should be educated...
Actually, it seems a little more fair (to me anyways) that they should be educated in the courses they choose, rather than the dictates and mandates you choose for them... :shrug:


"Imagine someone like bin Laden,..."

Or, imagine the CEO of MERK. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. And people recommend this tripe? n/t
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
45. How To Tell People They Sound Racist
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. Because the more Chinese who go to school here, the more
Chinese learn that Democracy is better. When they get back to China, those opinions follow them.

U.S. universities used to be tops - at one time there were several cabinet members of several countries who had their degrees from U.S. universities.

It gave us influence. Another thing we have lost due to the Chimperor's policies keeping out those terrorist students.

Your way just hardens the attitudes against the U.S.

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I thought that Ward Churchill was dismissed.
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 04:33 PM by Boojatta
Do you think that the professors at Oral Roberts University are putting in extra effort to ensure that academic institutions in America continue to, overall, provide the same level of education that they provided when Ward Churchill was teaching?
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. What the fuck?!?! Dude, come back when you're not delirious.
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 05:26 PM by High Plains
Are you, like, doin' MDMA or something?
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. I don't know if Tibet and Hong Kong have given China a lot more room for people
China invaded Tibet in 1949 and has been moving ethnic Hans into it for decades. But I think much of Tibet is at very high altitude and couldn't sustain hundreds of millions of new arrivals. Hong Kong and its small adjacent territories have for a long time been one of the most densely populated places on Earth and was filled wall-to-wall with people before and after China took it back from the British.

I've been representing Chinese students for about sixteen years, as I work as an immigration lawyer in a Chinese law firm just outside of Los Angeles. I think their contribution to the United States for the most part has been rather positive. Students coming over on F-1 visas are getting Ph.D.s and becoming postdoctoral scholars and are providing a lot of low paid teaching and research assistance at our universities. Many government grants for research depend on this supply of highly competent research talent. I handle a lot of immigration cases whereby Chinese students seek upper employment categories of immigrant visas like outstanding researchers, aliens with exceptional ability with national interest waivers, and aliens with extraordinary ability. Some of these students just want a green card and intend to go back and forth between the U.S. and China. Others marry Americans and have children over here, buy homes, and intend to make their lives here and eventually seek U.S. naturalization. They are usually very smart and contribute a great deal to scientific research in the the U.S. We are getting some exceptionally brights minds who study over here. Look at any English language scientific or engineering journal and you will find that many of the research papers published in them have Chinese surnames listed among the authors. It's quite impressive. Some of my cases require letters of support from U.S. professors and peers in the scientific community. I can't tell you how many times professors have stated in their letters that there simply aren't enough American students at the Ph.D. level and beyond in some fields of science and engineering, such as metallurgical engineering, and foreign students fill an important niche. Americans seem more interested in studying finance, computer science, law, medicine, and business these days than the hard sciences.

And America isn't the only destination for Chinese students. They are studying around the world, in Australia, Canada, France, Great Britain, Germany, and in Africa. In fact, the number of Chinese students coming here has slowed since Bush took office.

I agree that China's government is not very savory. But I think having thousands of Chinese students who come here, learn our language and customs and enjoy many aspects of life in the United States is a good thing and it's better than having them stay in China and become insular. Hopefully, those students who return to China to live and work will eventually change their government and the influence of America will stay with them. It will be a slow process but I think it will have a beneficial result in the end.
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:46 PM
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58. I'm not following your thought process here...
Why does one relate to the other???

Why do other countries allow US students to study if the US is currently occupying Iraq??
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