If you didn't like the Swiftboating of Kerry, don't do it to McCain

[jbane]

The man served honorably. It does not mean he should be president but at least he's not
a Chickenhawk like Bush and Chenney.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. This should be good.

[KitchenWitch]

73. Scootch over a bit!

[jbane]

74. Very Good...

Most responsed to any post I've ever had. Is does Midlodemocrat mean Midlothian Va?

[Midlodemocrat]

77. Yup. There are a lot of us here at DU.

Me, underpants, commander bunnypants, SCRUBDASHRUB, mikey_the_rat, swimboy and others I am sure I am forgetting.

[book_worm]

114. but do you agree with what the OP said?

[Richardo]

2. Thank you.

Military service should be off-limit no matter what the party

[gcomeau]

6. No... military service should *not* be off limits.

Only distorting it for political attacks should be. If there's something in his military service recodrd that is legitimately troubling that is as fair game as anything else. He's running in large part based on his military service, it demands honest scrutiny.

(For those not following that, that's me agreeing with the OP)

[Richardo]

8. 'legitimate' is the key word

Swiftboating is another matter.

[Allyoop]

95. Agree

He flew planes and dropped bombs (or napalm), crashed 5 of them and was a prisoner of war. Yes, he deserves acknowledgment for his service, but if that's what he's campaigning on, it should be open to honest discussion. What he did while in service did not give him mastery of military strategy. It obviously gave him no understanding of world problems or how to resolve them.

Same for Kerry. He was a good soldier, but, he too should not have used that in his campaign.

Of course, I don't want Democrats to "swift boat" McCain, but if his record is all he has in his favor, honest criticism should be OK.

[Squatch]

23. Negative...McCain is making his military service the center of his campaign

therefore, we should be able to examine and attack it when his actual service doesn't match up with what he's saying about it.

[HardWorkingDem]

32. Hm.....where did we hear that before?!?!?

Oh, McSame is the same in more ways than one, isn't he?

[Squatch]

35. I don't know where the hell you've heard that before.

As a career military man, myself, I will examine and attack McCain's service record where I see fit.

[HardWorkingDem]

46. How McCain...

told Kerry about the pitfalls of making his military experience the centerpiece of his campaign, as did all the right wingers attacking it.

What I meant was, that those attacking Kerry's service bitched about him using it like he did and doing so made it fair game and it's quite funny to watch the same thing happen to their man.

[TexasObserver]

59. Absolutely. He was unlike Kerry. McCain was a lousy service member.

He graduated 894 of 898 at Naval Academy.

He was a chronic fuck up his entire military career.

Anyone who didn't have an admiral father would have washed out of pilot duties long before he crashed yet another plane, in Vietnam.

This guy was never a good military member. He's attempted to enhance his standing by bragging nonstop about his career, so it is a legit topic of discussion. Swiftboating was all about Kerry's opposition to the Vietnam War, and his role in the anti war movement. That's why he was attacked, and why the Swiftboat liars came after him. It was not legit criticism of his career in the military. He was an exemplary officer, start to finish.

[hisownpetard]

3. IBTL.

[liberal N proud]

4. I don't think we have to

His record stands by it's self. He will implode on his own.

We just need to keep telling the truth about the man and his policies

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

5. Please provide examples of such swiftboating, oh long time listener.

[libnnc]

7. if it's off limits, then why does he keep bringing it up?

can't have it both ways

[Richardo]

11. You're right - so if you want to criticize McCain's service stop complaining about Kerry's treatment

You can't have it both ways.

[libnnc]

12. last time I checked, this was 2008

is your clock stuck?

[Richardo]

15. Ask the people who are still bemoaning Kerry's swiftboating

I myself have moved on, and I don't criticize anyone's service, especially if they were in combat. But that's just me - I have lots of veterans in my family and I never served myself.

[Mass]

19. People should not lie about McCain. This was the problem with the swiftboaters: the lies...

[libnnc]

24. point to where I moaned about Kerry's service.

This isn't about John Kerry. This is about a candidate whose supporters CONSTANTLY WHINE about criticizing his service in the military -- all the while said candidate's ONLY PLATFORM IN THE FIRST GODDAMNED PLACE IS HIS EXPERIENCE AS A POW.

[treestar]

56. Yeah we can. We can do it because they did it first.

If that's the way they want to play, they should take the consequences. Repukes are so big on consequences. How dare they complain?

And McBush is NOT a "war hero." Furthermore, nothing about his service means he would be a good President.

[Richardo]

87. It's a pissing contest you can't win.

Why try? There are SO many more substantive issues.

Does it qualify him? No. And saying so does not disparage his record.

[uppityperson]

79. Is there a difference between swiftboating and criticizing or pointing out lies

[Richardo]

85. I'll bet the swiftboaters said the same thing

[libnnc]

89. which part of "The Swiftboaters lied" do you not understand?

They lied about Kerry.

McCain's less than stellar record is FACT.

If he's so willing to use his POW status to get points, why is noting his flying record off limits?

[uppityperson]

91. Is there a difference between swiftboating and criticizing or pointing out lies?

My apologies for forgetting the question mark since you obviously didn't understand I was asking you a question. So, trying it again, is there a difference between swiftboating and criticizing or pointing out lies?

[Richardo]

96. You're right - I read that as a statement.

But: the swiftboaters DID say they were pointing out lies. I mean you could assert all you wanted that THEY wer lying and the truth is on your side, but to what end? I don't think the undecideds would find it persuasive, the left doesn't need it and the right won't believe it.

As I said above - it's a pissing contest you can't win, plus, it's completely unneccessary. There are tons of REAL deficiencies that McCain has that have nothing to do with his military service.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. There's nothing honorable about John McCain.

If McCain doesn't like it, he shouldn't have hired the swiftboaters.

[wryter2000]

42. I'll sure criticize him for having Swiftliars on his campaign

That's different from criticizing his service.

[TheDebbieDee]

10. It's been that "Holier than thou," and "We'll take the high road !"

attitude that has led to keeping the last 2 elections close enough for the repukes to steal!

I think that if we keep bringing knives to gunfights then we deserve to have our a$$es kicked!

[cobalt1999]

16. That's fine, but it means you can't bitch about the other side using the "low road" tactics.

Personally, I'd like to see the media start slamming anyone going low road.

I thought the attacks on Kerry were low and dirty, and I prefer not to wallow in their mudhole.

[TheDebbieDee]

22. It might mean that YOU can't 8itch about repukes using

"low road" tactics.

But me? I can 8itch about anything I want!

[cobalt1999]

28. LOL

You're not my wife are you?

[treestar]

57. Then you prefer a repuke Presidency

It is possible to complain about the tactics and use them. Complain about the American voters who are so shallow that they allow it to WORK!

[cobalt1999]

63. Hypocrisy is one thing I try very hard not to fall into.

If I complain about the tactics the right uses, but at the next opportunity use those same tactics, then either I'm now okay with those tactics or I'm a hypocrite.

Personally, I'm still not okay with lying to win. Some, like you are.

I'd like to see the media start slamming those who do. Maybe by doing spreading lies about McCain, it might cause the media to say "enough is enough" and both parties can get back to facts. I don't know.

[Breeze54]

13. No, he's not a chicken hawk.... He's a fucking WAR HAWK!!!

"Buchanan: John McCain ‘Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi'"

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buchanan-gandhi-mcc... /

On the NBC Today Show, liberal radio host Rachel Maddow, conservative pundit Pat Buchanan,
and Democratic strategist Paul Begala discussed the importance of “change” in the upcoming
election. Voters want a “clean break from Bush,” argued Maddow. Begala added that McCain
does not represent that type of change:

BEGALA: If McCain wins, he’s running for a third term for Bush.
He wants to make Bush’s Iraq war permanent, Bush’s economic program permanent.

Buchanan concluded the segment by arguing that McCain “will make Cheney look like Gandhi.”

Watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh0YEQL7FNA&eurl=http://... /

Yesterday, ThinkProgress released a video documenting the fact that the leading Republican
candidates are mimicking Bush’s policies and are looking to institute a third Bush term.

[devilgrrl]

14. He got shot down and held prisoner by a third world army. What's there to swiftboat?

[rucky]

17. That's fine. But it's not a qualification for President. n/t

[L. Coyote]

18. Would questions about the side-effects of his meds be okay?

I just want to know if they cause memory loss and dementia.
If so, we can swiftboat the medications instead.

[TwilightGardener]

20. Nope, I hope he goes down however he goes down--I am "win at all costs" now.

Fuck him.

[TheDebbieDee]

25. I agree. WE MUST win in November. Whatever it takes!

[jbane]

31. I'm almost on board with that except for two things

1. I'm a vet and I will allways honor the veterans service, no matter who it is.
2. I think Obama will win big and we don't have to go Swiftboat on a good American.

[YvonneCa]

38. "Go swiftboat"..

...is almost an insult. Could you please provide a link to your OP. I don't understand what you are referring to. Do you have an example of what you call 'swiftboating' ?

[TwilightGardener]

66. I'm a wife of a career serviceman--I don't think military records are off-limits--

they are open to examination, if a candidate chooses to make that a huge part of his rationale for running for the office. My husband's Air Force service is a JOB, not a holy calling.

[TheDebbieDee]

111. I'm a vet, too, Jbane. And I take exception to McSame's

vote against Webb's recent bill that would have made improvements to the Veteran's Bill. Phuck McSame and the horse he rode in on.

[Kaleko]

21. McCain is swiftboating himself, thanks to Jed Lewison of the JedReport.

Just watch him argue for NEVERENDING WAR, no matter what the American or Iraqui people want.

I hope Jed does a video of McCain bloviating on the economy as well.

[Gabi Hayes]

53. thanks for that clip....did you see this one, from the same person, which highlights conclusively

the big LIE that CBS, in particular, and the M$M, in general, are covering up for McCain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxXLAdgCws&feature=user

do you think anyone else besideds Abrams/Olbermann are going to touch this?

let's play the shoe on the other foot game...if Obama ever says something even close to this, you'll hear about it for weeks

[MiniMe]

26. I agree, he served honorably. No problems with that. I agree with Wes Clark,

however, that it isn't a prerequisite for President. I fail to see how sitting in the Hanoi Hilton, as terrible an experience that must have been, would teach you anything about fighting a war or warrents you being called a hero.

He had an absolutely frightening experience, and I give him props for what he went through and what he endured. I just see no connection between that experience and President.

[predfan]

27. Is it fair to revisit what the Bush campaign said back in 2000 about McCain?

Quoting Republicans slurs against other Republicans certainly should be fair play.......I've already seen Hillary's words about Obama used against him.

[RB TexLa]

29. Ah yes, the high road, it always leads to a good view of your opponent's victory party

You want to win, you make your opponent wish they had never been born.

And if you are not willing to do that, you are just wasting people's time and money.

[zanne]

34. Sad but so true. nt

[The Stranger]

30. Did he stick up for Kerry publicly against the Swift Boat "Veterans"?

If he didn't, then fuck him.

He has whatever is coming to him.

[zanne]

33. I think we should give as good as we get.

Republicans don't get a free pass this time.

[bullwinkle428]

36. Do you consider Wes Clark's comments a form of "swiftboating"?

[blogslut]

37. John McCain is swiftboating himself

[wryter2000]

39. While I agree in principle

The Swiftsmears were lies. Saying that McCain lost a lot of planes and maybe wasn't such a great pilot isn't a lie.

[iconicgnom]

40. Swiftboaters weren't wrong for criticizing Kerry's record, they were wrong for LYING about it.

Those who can't make this distinction shouldn't use the term "swiftboating", because the meaning the term now has depends on it. In fact those who fail to make the distinction in effect join the swiftboaters in doing a serious injustice to Kerry.

Now, if someone LIES about McCain's service, they're doing something similar to what the swiftboaters did to Kerry. So yes, if you don't like the swiftboating of Kerry, don't LIE about McCain's service - because that'd make you a "swiftboater". But that certainly doesn't put McCain's service record out of bounds as an issue - and to suggest otherwise is crazy.

[LittleClarkie]

80. That's a good distinction to make.

So the lesson is, if you're gonna talk about it, make sure what you say is fair, and correct.

[YvonneCa]

107. Thank you...

...for this. I agree completely.

[seabeyond]

41. i have never nor would i ever criticize his military. regardless, i thank him for that AND

that in NO way says he should be president. not even. not kinda

i agree with you

[Marrah_G]

43. oh boy....I am not jumping in the middle of this mess.

[AlCzervik]

44. if he uses any of the swift boaters in his campaign he should be trashed for it, other

than that there is so much wrong with McCain that going after him on his service is a waste of time and it's possible it may cause voters to have sympathy for him.

McCain, he's just wrong on everything.

[Richardo]

108. I've missed your pragmatic rationality...

...or is it your rational pragmatism?

[AlCzervik]

117. Hi, nice to see you too!

2 weeks of company and then i was gone for a week and now---i have to go to, dun dun dun The mall!!

You know i hates malls with a white hot passion but i have to go and get a gift card for someone. Light a candle for me and i'll talk you later.

[Vickers]

45. "The man served honorably."

So did I, and I feel quite comfortable getting into the details of someone's military "accomplishments" if they make it a centerpiece of their presidential campaign.

BTW, which branch did you serve under?

[NightWatcher]

65. he's sporting a Navy avatar. I guess he is looking out for his Navy buddy

[jbane]

118. USN

[Mz Pip]

47. I would not attack

McCain for his service, but he is using his status as a former POW like it's an entitlement to the WHite House. He doesn't want to talk about it but it's nearly in every damn ad he runs.

There were over 800 POWs. Are they all qualified to be president based on that experience?

[sarge43]

48. The Democrats didn't start this bs.

Remember the bottom feeder wearing the Purple Heart band aid at the '04 Repug convention?

Honorable discharges are the default. Unless there's significant official disciplinary action on record, the honorable is the only option. I can assure you having an honorable is no guarantee a vet didn't royally fuck up at some point during his/her time.

Bush has an honorable discharge. He disobeyed a legal order by dodging his flight physical. Following the dodge no legal or administrative action was taken. The real AF would have dropped the UCMJ on a pilot's head for that trick or had him serving as morale officer at Wake Island or Thule. They're legit questions why he did it and how he got away with it; ones that still haven't been answered.

Minor point, but Bush was stealing from the American tax payers early on. From the moment he was bounced off flight status, he was unqualified in any specialty for the remainder of his 'service'.
So an honorable in itself does not indicate a squeaky clean record.

I agree with the other posters that the questions must be legitimate; however, having an honorable discharge is not a shield. McCain is touting his service as qualification for the presidency. So, his service is open to examination.

(typo)

[JaneQPublic]

49. So we can't wear the purple heart bandaids at our convention?

Actually, Democrats would never do anything that despicable.

[sarge43]

61. I hope not, else I'd have to re-register as an Independent. n/t

[AzDar]

50. The truth should never be off limits. And I'd be REALLY surprised if any

member of DU (excepting TROLLS, of course ) has ever referred to McCain as a 'chickenhawk'.

[cap]

51. we don't need to swiftboat McCain: He's swiftboating himself

part of me is actually starting to hurt when I see McCain on TV... it's just getting bad. I agree with Edward's communication's director: McCain's PR people should be sued for malpractice. Let's see: Obama visiting world leaders and looking awesome; McCain looking lame with the Ex-President Bush on a golf cart.

Could we just get McCain to stop on humanitarian grounds? The guy looks worse and worse each day.

We don't have to do anything... just watch the guy self-destruct. No need to pile on.

[truebrit71]

52. It's not 'swiftboating' if it is factual...that is the biggest difference..

...the swiftboat slimeballs were lying douchebags, going after 'Crasher' McCain's record based on facts is perfectly fine...

[treestar]

54. And lose the election

It works. That's why the repukes do it.

Let them have a taste of their own medicine.

[City Lights]

55. Who's doing it to mccain?

Is he being swift-boated, or is this a preemptive his-service-is-off-limits strike?

[donco6]

58. Who's swiftboating McCain? eom

[yorgatron]

60. John McCain is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life

[sarge43]

62. Yes mother.

[UTUSN]

64. "swiftboating" has the connotation of UNtrue. McNASTY has ugly TRUTHS about him. n/t

[Alter Ego]

67. No one's questioning his service--it's his shameless use of it as

a universal "Get Out Of Shit Free" card.

"Well, of COURSE I mixed up Sunni and Shia! I WAS a POW, you know!"

"Well, of COURSE I don't remember my positions on these key issues! I WAS a POW, you know!"

"Well, of COURSE I just pissed in the wastebasket because I thought it was the sink! I WAS a POW, you know!"

[DutchLiberal]

68. What's honorable about bombing innocent women and children to death?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

69. Questioning the relevancy of his POW experience isn't swiftboating

I don't think anyone is questioning how McCain acted when he was shot down and imprisoned or whether he earned his medals and honors. They are just pointing out that his war experience doesn't necessarily qualify him to be President, to be a CEO of a fortune 500 company, to be a jazz pianist, to be a heavyweight prize fighter, or anything else. The swiftboaters didn't challenge whether Kerry's heroism was relevant to the office of President. They accused the Navy of giving false medals and Kerry and his crew of falsifying the events that led to his receipt of purple hearts and medals.

[underseasurveyor]

70. Pfffft

Mcsame has told more lies about his own service and is doing a better job of swiftboating himself than anyone else has.

Trying to turn it around to say that it's being done to mcsame is to try and switch up the argument and lay blame where it doesn't belong to an argument that doesn't exist.

[Stinky The Clown]

71. "Swiftboating" is telling outright lies. Calling into question Captain Combover's .........

...... military service **as a qualifier** to be president is fair, particularly when ***his own campaign*** has done so.

I've seen no "swiftboating" attempts by OUR SIDE on the good captain. I have seen some by people on the far right. Go take it up with them if you have a problem with anyone attacking him.

And what about his other crap? Is that off limits, too?

Is his wife's history as a person committing felonious acts to be ignored?

[IndianaJones]

72. the man did not serve honorably. he couldn't carry John Kerry's jockstrap. nt.

[pnwmom]

75. Show me one example of a DUer Swiftboating McCain.

The people who Swiftboated Kerry were LYING about his military record, pure and simple.

Where are the lies and distortions about McCain's record?

[Initech]

76. I agree.

The main difference between McCain and Kerry is that nobody is making outrageous claims against McCain's service like they did for Kerry (eg - Kerry shot himself in the foot, etc).

[uppityperson]

78. He did (serve honorably)? Link? Proof? He needs to prove what he says.

If he makes his military service a centerpiece of his campaign, he needs to be able to prove what he says and countering it isn't "swiftboating".

[sarge43]

81. Indeed.

Has he released his all military records, including medical? Are they on line so that they may be examined?

He's a retiree, so his service is officially honorable, but as noted above that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't screw up or even have exemplary service. Money, mouth Captain.

[Quantess]

82. I can still question his judgment and military policies.

He can't rest on his POW laurels.

I want to know what he's going to do for the U.S. of A. in the future. I think his judgment, temperament, and overall cognitive functioning, are worth critiquing. Not necessarily based on his past decisions from his long-gone soldier days, but on more recent behavior.

[Richardo]

99. Of course you can. Questioning his judgement is not casting aspersions on his service.

[Philosoraptor]

83. mc idiot hired the very people who swiftboated him to swiftboat Obama

[Bake]

84. How many planes did he crack up?

He was a shitty pilot. He'd be an even shittier President.

Bake

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. i agree. nt

[libnnc]

90. Do you agree that McCain should shut his fucking yap about his record?

Instead of beating everyone over the head with it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

92. no. i think people shouldnt lie about service. what they did to kerry was unforgiveable.

there is nothign wrong with us stating his service is irrelevant and outdated. but actively lying about it (like the swiftboaters did) is immoral

[libnnc]

93. Who on DU has lied about McCain's service record?

Where?

He was a lousy student, a lousy pilot and a punk-assed fuckup who destroyed SEVERAL aircraft and depended on his family connections to get him out of scrapes. He wants to run for POTUS on the myth that he's some kind of Audie Murphy -- He ain't.


Those aren't lies.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. did i say he has? i just agreed that he shouldnt be swiftboated.

that lying about his record is immoral.

[Richardo]

97. You won't win that argument.

The five years as a POW will trump all that. That's the public persona, and there's no changing it.

All you'd accomplish is making yourself look like some kind of rabid lefty who didn't support the military, and that persuades no one in this electorate, except those who already agree with you. And they don't need persuading.

[libnnc]

101. People who plan on voting for McCain soley based on his POW status

are brain-dead anyway.

Waste of my time.


You extol his virtues all you like.

I'll pass.

[Richardo]

103. That's what I was saying

Speaking of brain dead.

...who's extolling virtues? I'm just not trashing him. Speaking of brain-dead.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

109. Funny how that works

Must be some kind of unwritten law of nature. Republicans can tell lies about John Kerry's purple hearts, silver star, and bronze star and completely discredit his service and also accuse the United States Navy of going along with his alleged charades and not be branded by the media as rabid extremists who don't support the military.

Democrats merely question the relevancy of McCain's service without discrediting it in the least and are called rabid lefties.

[Richardo]

112. You're another one who can't read, aren't you?

I've said several times in this thread alone that discussing the relevancy of his service is NOT disparaging his service. But even General Clark had a hard time explaining that.

However, a lot of the rabid lefties on this board just want to trash his military record. And true or not, it goes against the public perception of him as a brave POW, and it just won't work. Is it unfair? Yes. But there it is.

No. One. Will. Believe. It.


The GOOD news is, there are tons of other areas you really CAN disparage him in - that also call into question his qualifications for President.

[YvonneCa]

106. Thank you...

...for this. That is THE important difference...the 'swiftboating' term is about LYING about a person's record (Kerry in 2004). It's the lying...backed by miliions of dollars (T Boone Pickens, etc.) that is wrong.

Discussing the truth about one's military (or civilian) service as part of a discussion about job qualification is different. That's important to do...after all, this is a JOB INTERVIEW for the job of President of the United States. JMHO.

[spanone]

88. okay.

[LeftCoast]

98. Who's spreading false stories about McCain's service in Vietnam?

Or do you mean that we aren't allowed to criticize him when he suggests that his Vietnam experience somehow makes him more suitable to be President than Obama?

[Richardo]

102. Suggesting his Vietnam experience does not qualify him is NOT disparaging his service

It's just saying that it's irrelevant.

[LeftCoast]

110. I think we're arguing much the same thing

[Richardo]

113. Agreed.

Good show.

[burythehatchet]

100. I think I've read 15 replies asking you for examples of "swiftboating", or do you know what the fuck

the term means?

[jbane]

119. The Mets are closing in on the Phillies....

That's a good thing.

[snooper2]

104. He didn't serve Honorably

I heard he raped two young girls while over there...

You haven't heard about that yet?

[burythehatchet]

105. He was a lousy student, he's a liar, he is devoid of principles, he's never had to work an honest

job in his life, he's a cheating husband, he's a dirty politician. See? No swiftboating, all truth.

[silverweb]

115. Telling the truth is not "swiftboating."

McCain's military service does absolutely nothing to qualify him to be president.

Since HE wants to make his Navy and POW experience a centerpiece of his campaign and "qualifications," then he's opening it up to scrutiny himself.

[RamboLiberal]

116. Here's 2 Swiftboats I see against McCain quite often on DU

McCain Wet Start started Forrestal Fire - BS! BTW if you have National Geographic Channel Tues 7/29 Noon they are running Seconds From Disaster: Aircraft Carrier Explosion. It's about the Forrestal fire and the investigation in to the cause. Oh and this is not a new show, it was produced several years ago I believe by U.K. television producers. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/seconds-fr...

The other smear I consider Swift Boating is the Song Bird claim that McCain was a traitor under torture to the U.S.

Oh and when people claim he crashed 5 planes, I'd say there are 3 crashes to really investigate. I don't think counting the Forrestal fire loss or his shootdown as legitimate crashes you can attribute to him.

Otherwise I say his record is fair game.