Ever wish you were a citizen of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland?

[raccoon]

I do sometimes. I don't think about it much, but when I do think about it, I kind of wish I were.

[billyoc]

1. And be happy? I wouldn't know how to act.

[Myrina]

2. Often ... especially lately ...

... not only does society/politics seem irretrievably fucked up, but my job (thanks, Greedy Dumbass Corporation) and now my future finances (thanks, Greedy Mortgage Company) are too ... Calgon, take me away!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Yeah. Or somehow magically import their government style and social attitudes here. LOL

[YOY]

9. That would involve some serious redneck genocide in order to work.

and I just can't justify that means even with that fantastic end.

[rox63]

4. I would love to move to one of those countries

I'd have to start taking language classes beforehand, though.

[Bill McBlueState]

51. maybe not...

The Scandinavians I've met all speak English better than many Americans!

[DFW]

64. Swedish is incredibly easy to learn.

I took it for 2 and a half years in college, and the professor never even used English
after the first semester (native Swede), and never needed to. It looks complicated if
you have no idea what is going on, but it is very similar to English once you get into
it and understand what it is all about. It is a simplified Germanic language with most
basic things so close to English, you pick them up immediately:
snö--snow
regn--rain
kniv--knife
hus--house
äta--eat
mjölk--milk
sex--six (OK, SOME things, ya gotta watch! LOL)
Jag skall gå hem nu--I shall go home now

etc. etc., and if you know any German, you can figure out 75% of it.

Plus, once you can read it, you can read most of Norwegian and Danish, too.
Norwegian spoken is not too hard once you understand Swedish, but Danish is
a mess due to pronunciation, and needs some getting used to. On the other hand,
København (Copenhagen) is the coolest city in Europe north of Hamburg.

[NightWatcher]

5. Holland is the place to go. It has everything from Delft to Amsterdam

from quaint small towns to large booming progressive metrolpolis

...food, beer, marijuana....

[mainegreen]

20. I love Delft.

I've spent about 1 1/2 years of my life there.

[marmar]

6. I can picture my canal-side home in Amsterdam's Jordaan district as we speak....

....I'd love it!

And I really liked Copenhagen too.

[YOY]

7. You mean having a life that doesn't revolve around making someone else rich???

UNTHINKABLE!!!

[fascisthunter]

10. I know it.... who would have ever thought it was possible

[fascisthunter]

8. heck, I'd Take a German Citizenship

those you mention though are really good ones from what I have read. Every country has problems, but one thing they have right, is how their system treats it's own citizens, especially if you are liberal or progressive.

This country shits on us constantly even though the left has championed so many good things for its citizens.


Well, I will be working toward a Dual Citizenship. It may takes years but it's something I really want to do.

[DFW]

66. I don't know what the rules are for acquiring dual citizenship

You do have to watch out for double taxation, as both countries will try to get
you if you are not VERY careful. Most countries do not grant dual citizenship
to adults (they want you to choose one or the other) unless it is for reasons
of ethnicity/ancestry (Ireland was known for being loose about this), marriage
or birth to parents of two different nations. This last is the strongest argument
and the easiest way to get dual citizenship, although it's only easy if your parents
do the paperwork while you are an infant. It gets a LOT more complicated later on.
My wife is German, and our daughters were born in Germany. That made them automatic
German citizens, but I went down to the American Embassy immediately and registered
them as U.S. citizens as well, and now no one questions their right to either nationality,
which gives them the luxury of being able to live in one or the other whenever they
want.

Still, if you have both passports, you have to be very careful once you are no longer
a student. Deficit-producing, high-tax nations are always hungry for money, including yours.
If you don't get advised by a skilled accountant, you can find yourself in the 102% tax
bracket, with both of your homelands out to tax you for all they can, and no matter how
nice the Danes are, panhandling for food isn't a pleasant way to enjoy the best Denmark
has to offer.

[bikebloke]

11. I saw it 30 years ago.

Unfortunately, immigrating is easier said than done. At least I tried.

[bigscott]

12. i would move

to the Netherlands in a heartbeat!

[momster]

13. Only the Netherlands

(Holland doesn't like being called Holland any more). It's where we might go if McCain (spit, spit) gets in. Copenhagen is too expensive and Norway and Sweden are too bluidy cold for year-round living. But even the Netherlands are cracking down on their wide-open lifestyle and the levels of tension between (mostly Muslim) immigrants and the locals are increasing.

Ain't no place safe and no safe place to put your head.

[bean fidhleir]

46. "(Holland doesn't like being called Holland any more)"

Holland likes being called Holland just fine - it's the country that doesn't like being called Holland, since Holland is just one (two, now) of its provinces. It'd be like calling the whole country Friesland or Gelderland. Or the US, New York.

[elocs]

14. Big language since most of those people have not bothered to be fluent in English,

and I am not up on Denish or Hollandese.

[salin]

15. funny

I was in Norway this summer, nearly everyone spoke English. Your complaint sorta sounds like projection (ala most Americans do not speak a second language).

[elocs]

29. Right, we do expect everybody else in the world to know English.

I do bet that far more people in Europe know and can speak English than Americans can their language.

[DFW]

67. I was in Norway ten days ago, and I have no idea if they all speak English or not

I spoke to them in Swedish, they answered in Norwegian, and everyone was happy

[stray cat]

16. No. I am thankful I have the privileges and opportunities I have here that others here don't have

I'm lucky to have born here into the family and situation I was born. I received a good public school background. Except in grad school I have had decent subsidized health insurance from where I work. Even in grad school I could afford a catastrophic plan. I went to college relatively inexpensively at a small MN state school so I graduated without debt. I can't afford a house, but I have a job I like and continue to rent. I've been able to travel overseas and was even an exchange student in Jordan in highschool.

I may not agree with all US policies - but I know when I've got it good compared to many others here and abroad.

[raccoon]

17. True, same here,

"but I know when I've got it good compared to many others here and abroad." Especially compared with people in THird World countries.

Sounds like you've always had good health care coverage. Enjoy it while it lasts! To me that would be the main advantage of living in a social democracy.

Also, I was so fortunate as to continue to receive survivor Social Security benefits to enable me to go to college. That came to an end under St. Ronnie's administration.

[stray cat]

36. Grad school fo 7 years -health care was largely out of pocket unless >500/incident

and dental care as I'm sure you know was expensive. However, you are right - I have been very lucky. I definitely fear McCain wanting to do away with employer-subsidized health insurance and hope we can get something better in place - too many people falling through the cracks - perhaps myself someday.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. or canada. nt

[MedleyMisty]

19. I used to

But now you hear so much about the xenophobia in Europe and their politicans are moving to the right on the political compass just like ours. We're just ahead of the curve.

[wvbygod]

21. They all have offshore oil drilling

There is actually less crude washing up on shores with the drilling because it reduces
the natural seepage of crude from the underwater reserves. Their energy independence
is to be admired and we could do well to mimic some of their methods.

[Vickers]

44. Now where have I heard that before...?

[comtec]

22. Avoid Holland it's becoming gop-lite land here

and no I'm not kidding.
It's like they've taken all the not-so-horrible ideas and put them into practice here.
EVERYTHING that was once government owned or controlled and more or less worked, like the national rail system (NS), the buses, the phone (ok that was good) the power, the gas, the medical, they're all regulated and private now!

The only thing that improved was Telecom, which normally improves in teh market place, but NOTHING ELSE!

Bus and train travel has more than doubled from when it was Royal NS, and NS has REDUCED service! (ewer trains) even though demand has INCREASED!, they are constantly raising bus and train prices (at least it feels like that).

The trains (I rant about them because I commute every day by train. love it btw) a bloody expensive!
a non-discounted ticket from my home in Zwolle to Amsterdam Center is €28.40, €17.00 with reduction. For those of you from the bay area, that's concord to SF, which costs around 10 dollar round trip

Reduction is after 9am M-F, and is 40% off. Round trips cost less than two one ways... and yes i'm complaining about thorns on the rose!

Thing is, it's getting more expensive, and my pay isn't increasing. The only saving grace is that my employer pays my travel costs (yay) otherwise I'd be out the €355 they reimburse me every month, and that's a discount because I buy a month pass.

OK, the real reason to move to Sweden as opposed to Holland, it's not just Moroccans they are unpleasant towards, they don't want A N Y allochtonen (us foreigners who live here), and the law and government reflect this fact.



but if you can handle only seeing the sun 3-4 months out of the year (that's total days), then it's rather nice here. If you live in the randstad (Utrecht to Amsterdam/Rotterdam) you can easily get away with only english. Any farther out and you'll really need to get good at Dutch (a hard, non-nonsensical language).

But that aside, it's nice here. You can adjust, the hardest part is stores close early (6pm) here and Sunday the country is generally closed (except for Adam, Rdam, and dan haag (the Hague).

geniet, met je reiz

[helderheid]

24. Triest. :(

So sad to hear. We left in 2001. I do need to disagree about getting away with English. I lived in Zeist. I got away with English for 3 months before the shopkeepers expected me to speak Dutch, however the phrase "Het spijt me maar mijn Nederlands is niet zo goed. Mag ik verder in Engels pratten?" got me along for a couple more months until I learned Dutch.

I'm so sorry to hear things are going downhill there.

[comtec]

72. Hopefully they'll improve

the problem is the dutch are very "the tall flower gets cut first" mentality, so even if the SP and PvDA beat out the CDA (I hope) in the next election cycle (whenever that is) things may not improve enough because of lack of support in the eerste kamer (house of lords). The 'Senate' in europe tends to be lifers and "lords" so they really don't represent the little guy here.

So I dunno. RE-nationalizing the transportation, and at least one of the fuel companies (royal dutch shell) would probably greatly increase the standard of living here. Since the Guilder went away, and the euro came in prices have gone mad, while wages have not kept up. We saw 110% inflation in 2 years when it flipped. While wages converted neatly to euros from gulders according to the exchange rate, prices went rfom one guilder to one euro. The fixed rate is 2.25 guilders to one euro.

BUT.....the cost of living overall is lower than in the US because of tight controls on many rental properties and housing. My house cost 169k new, the average house costs around this, in my area houses actually cost between 150 and 300k. I think if you look and bargain hard enough, you can get a detached house for around 300k even, and they say WE'RE in a housing bubble thingie!

so yeah, some things are outrageous in cost, others are much more reasonable. thorns on a rose

[elehhhhna]

25. comtec, have gas prices gone up there as they have here?

I have family in Arnhem & would love to visit again -- it's been 10 years.

[comtec]

71. it depends, diesel used to be 90 cents a liter

now its' 1.32/L, petrol has gone from 1.10/l to 1.60.
so its' all relative.
a gallon is a bit under 4 L, a royal gallon (UK) is 4 L.
Hybrids (prius) re selling like mad, and I imagine as soon as a diesel hybrid hits the market, there'll be a 3 year wait list immediately LOL.

[helderheid]

23. If I'd lived in Holland 1 more year, I would have been.

*sigh*

My husband is though.

[donco]

26. hell no. nt

[pansypoo53219]

27. yes. i want the danish bakery again.

but their veggies don' look so good. but i did like denmark a lot.

[Muttocracy]

28. One of my friends broke a bone while living in Norway

and figured if he ever had to break a bone, he's thrilled it was there. He had excellent advanced medical care for cheap.

[moondust]

30. Denmark.

Since first visiting there 30+ years ago I've had a dream of being born in Denmark--without all the hype and personality cults and car culture and culture of "bigness" and aggression and violence and manipulation and arrogance and nuclear superpower stigmas of the U.S. Just a life-size life. I guess it's too late for that.

[kestrel91316]

31. I have connections in Sweden through my sister.

It's my ace-in-the-hole, and a good fall-back location for my niece and nephew, too.

[hfojvt]

32. since I have a great-grandfather from Switzerland

and took four years of high school Deutsch, I usually lean towards Rhenish Reich.

[treestar]

33. Yes, mainly because it is possible to live without being obsessed

with one's country being "number one" or the "most powerful nation" blah, blah, and being able to use your taxes to help your fellow citizens rather than running the world.

[closeupready]

34. I lived in Europe a few years' back, and while it's a seductive way of life,

they have problems of their own. As to the Nordic countries, the winters are too long and dark.

Also, their societies are more bound by class than American society.

Though the way things are going, I can see a time when Europeans have a way better standard of living than the typical American.

[raccoon]

37. Could you expand on this, "their societies are more bound by class than American society?"

As I'm sure you know the American myth is we're not as class bound as in European countries, but in reality, we are still pretty class bound.

[closeupready]

40. Sure, but bear in mind I'm only relating impressions and anecdotes.

For example, in France, it's sometimes said that the worst thing you can say of someone else is that they were poorly raised, mal eleve. Sort of like calling them a bastard. That would elicit little more than a shrug here. And I was acquainted with a girl who was a member of an old establishment family, and she went to a reunion once, explaining to me that this was a typically French thing to do, for an entire clan to celebrate together, regardless of where in the line of descent they were (more or less). And a British friend of mine explained to me once (we were talking about something similar to this, a kind of 'could you live in America/England?' game) that regardless of price, not all available real estate is truly available to all buyers, that much of the best is reserved for aristocracy and upper class individuals.

I could be way off-base, but after a year living there, that was essentially my impression of European society, the obsession with high class membership (as opposed to, for example, wealth or fame, both of which are regarded with suspicion in Europe).

[DFW]

70. That mentality does still prevail

A friend of ours is a teacher, married to a a rich successful business consultant.
He drives a Mazzerati, wears $1000 shoes, but at home, still dresses in old jeans,
and both being from working class backgrounds in the Ruhr, don't dress up if they
don't have to. Our friend was with my wife in a store looking at some expensive bed
linen. The saleswoman told her "these are too expensive for you." Her jaw dropped,
as she could have bought out the place with petty cash. They still very much go by
appearances in Germany.

Another time, I was introduced to someone I didn't know as the director for an American
outfit in Europe. The person grew very respectful, and said, "ahh, Herr Direktor!" I
explained that my name was not "Direktor," and I'd appreciate it if they would not call
me that. As most Germans, once they become "Direktor" of ANYTHING, even the local sewage
treatment plant, insist on being addressed as "Herr Direktor," my response drew the utmost
confusion (i.e. once you have acquired the title, why in the world don't you wish to use it?).
Another rule of life in Germany--wherever you live, you MUST be registered with the local
police. If you move, you must tell the police in the town you are leaving where you are
going, and when you get there, tell the police that you are now there. When I first heard
about this, I thought they were talking about East Germany. Nope, Western Germany. They
asked me about how it worked in the USA (this was in the pre-internet days). I said we had
no such system. If you want to move, you move, and if you want to be found, you leave a
forwarding address, and if not, you don't. My German friends couldn't believe it. For that
matter, I couldn't believe their requirement. I asked what it was good for. They said, well
it was easier to track criminals that way. I said maybe you consider every citizen a potential
criminal and need to do that, but we don't take that attitude (yet) in the USA, although these
days, it looks more like we're following their example than they are following ours.


The cultural and class differences still linger in Germany, along with the more positive
aspects.

[closeupready]

78. Yes, these stories ring very true from what I know about life in Europe.

As a tourist, people obviously like the fact that you are spending money and knowing that you will be leaving shortly. And actually, my landlady actually said that to me once, "what I like about tourists is that they eventually go home." So they take your money, wave goodbye and laugh all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, after returning to the US, those same Americans go on and on about how nice it is there. I don't mean to be nasty or anything, but having lived there, I know that there are two sides to Europe, and though they are beating us competitively on most quality of life indices, there certainly is a down/ugly side to life there. If things got bad enough here, though, I wouldn't be opposed to relocating.

Cheers -

[YOY]

38. You can see a time?

They already do live better than us.

[closeupready]

42. Yeah, in some ways, you're right.

Good for them, but sad for us.

[YOY]

43. I married a EU citizen.

We can always escape there, but I'd rather not unless the defecation hits the rotating blades.

[Rambis]

35. I could ice skate to work

on the canals since we can't seem to come up with a commuter train in this country.

[YOY]

47. and an Amtrak employee I can only tell you to not blame us

If you knew what we had to work with compared to what the Europeans and Japanese have to work with comparatively you'd understand the situation better. It's pretty sad.

[Rambis]

52. Didn't mean to imply that at all

It is a fucking mess and we should have spent the Iraq money improving rail. Until we can get away from freight first or lay new track to avoid traffic jams we can't even start. It is not a priority of the US government. Bail out the airlines but let Amtrak rot-

[YOY]

54. Well then, it looks like you understand it better than most Americans.

You hit all the major points in 4 sentences.

[fudge stripe cookays]

74. Glad you're still around!

I'm considering taking Amtrak for a trip next spring.

I travel a lot for my genealogy, but it looks like on one leg, from Milwaukee to Chicago, I'd have a baggage weight limit, and I don't know if I could stay within it. I have a manuscript, a scanner, a laptop, and some scrapbooks that i travel with. No matter how I go, flying or rail, it's gotten harder!

I checked the price, and for an overnight seat (no roomette), it was like $199! More people need to be looking into this option!

[seabeyond]

39. no n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. No offense but what makes you think they're welcoming Americans with open arms?

I'm not sure it would be the cakewalk that lots of people here think.

[raccoon]

48. I certainly don't think they're welcoming Americans with open arms, that's just my point.

How in the sam hill did you come up with that out of what I posted in the OP?


Seems to me that most countries I'd want to move to (including Canada) are a mofo to get into, and especially if you've got some age on you, which I do, fuggetaboutit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. It is HARD to emigrate to the EU

I looked into ancestry visas for a couple of countries, and I'm one generation too long in America for either Norway or Germany.

Otherwise, your only hope to is to get a job (but preference goes to current EU residents) or marry someone from an EU country.

[Blue_Tires]

45. i hear the women are hawt...

[MadHound]

50. No, not really

I like our country, front one end to another. It has a lovely diversity of geography, people, and culture. I love where I currently live, in the Midwest, with rolling hills and forests. I love this country. What I don't like is how our political and economic policies for the past fifty years have fucked up this once great country. A country that was once the beacon for the rest of the world has used it's unique position to become an imperial power, oppressing and killing people both within and outside its borders.

[LeftishBrit]

53. Don't know about 'wishing I were a citizen'...

I like living in Britain, and am a bit spoilt about temperate winters; and if I change in either respect, I *do* have dual citizenship with Canada.

However, I do really love Norway - the only one of these countries that I know at all well - and have called it 'the land that Thatcherism forgot'. Sweden and Denmark - and Finland - seem similar, again if one could face the cold dark winters. I am not sure about the Netherlands however; a quite ugly right-wing element seems to have emerged there recently.

[JCMach1]

55. Not really...

[bikebloke]

56. Well, I work for a British company.

And a colleague over there has suggested I transfer over. Only London is too enclosed for me. I'd suffocate without some open spaces to ride through. And the bike lanes are only 2 cm wide! Plus, I'm a light drinker, so they'd either deport me or lock me in the Tower for tourists to gawk at.

Early on, with my social democracy leanings, I was keen on Scandia. Since then, I've evolved into a warm weather person. So I keep lobbying at work for a New Zealand, Sydney or Barcelona office to man. Crikey, they won't listen to reason.

[carlyhippy]

57. I'd move to Amsterdam in a minute if I had the chance

Carly

[elleng]

58. Yes,

more every day.

[tabasco]

59. Every fucking day.

[malaise]

60. My oldest sister was born in the US

by accident (our parents were on their way back from England after the war and mum went into labor in the New York harbor). She went to college in the US, graduated and moved to Denmark because one of her room-mates was Danish and told her about the place. She married a Dane and has lived there for 38 years including five years in Greenland. They wouldn't give it up for anything. She actually gave up her US citizenship during the Vietnam War. It was funny listening to her bawl about the Florida heat last weekend during our reunion. She sure enjoyed shopping in Florida with Euros though. Mum went to high school in Belgium and studied in England so we grew up hearing more about Europe than the US. After dad died in 83, mum spent most of the rest of her life in Denmark.

If we didn't love the Caribbean so much, we could live in Denmark and be very happy. I love the easy pace outside of Copenhagen.

[Joe Holmes]

61. Europe is very cool, but it has problems.

My wife is an EU citizen and we have an apartment in Budapest. Beautiful city, friendly people, but Eastern Europe is extremely corrupt, a holdover from their communist days. The healthcare in the East is terrible for the average person- my wife's grandmother spent 6 months in the hospital waiting for a hip operation. Of course, if the family could pay the doctor a little bribe (about $3,000) then the operation could have happened in about 10 days. The public hospitals are disgusting, 4 or 5 people to a room, no privacy curtains. If you want the bedding changed, do it yourself. Or bribe the nurse.

Real estate in the East is still very affordable, I was looking at a 5-bedroom house on 10 acres of land, in the country, for $40,000! The wife said no to that, she wanted to have a place in the city. We still paid about 1/3 of what a similiar place here in California would cost.

[DailyGrind51]

62. If I wasn't nearing 60 with a paid-off house in a familiar neighborhood,

I'd get the fuck out of this neo-con nightmare!

[defendandprotect]

63. The problem has always been where do you go to avoid becoming a victim of . . .

US foreign policy --- ???

These thugs aren't only undermining the US/democracy --- they're active everywhere ---

and Candada is right to be concerned ---

[Rosa Luxemburg]

65. YES!

I like Norway. I like the trams in Oslo.

[Cleita]

68. The citizens of all those places had to suffer through

a lot before they came to where they are. We seem to need to pull our shit together to not lose what we have. Read about their history.

[raccoon]

75. Yeah, look at Scandinavia! They used to be Vikings, go around

looting, pillaging, and raping. (of course not all of them were Vikings.)

Now they don't do those things any more, they enjoy life in their social democracies.

[Zhade]

69. Ironically, I could have dual citizenship in Holland...

...but can't afford to move there.

Oh, and I don't speak Dutch. :p

[TrogL]

73. Have you considered Canada?

Culturally, politically and socially it resembles a Scandianvian country.

[raccoon]

76. Trouble is, Canada will only take you if you have a skill they really need,

and they don't want you if you're old. Both those disqualify me.


I love Canada. I think Canada is wonderful. I went to Manitoba last year and want to make a trip to Newfoundland. And other areas, too.

[jeffrey_X]

77. Costa Rica for me

friendly, peaceful and beautiful.

[EstimatedProphet]

79. All the time