Army to shoot live pigs for medical drill

[still_one]

Despite opposition by the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Army is moving forward with its plan to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday at Schofield Barracks for soldiers headed to Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080718/ap_on_re_us/army_pigs

Humans who inflict unnecessary suffering on animals, represent the worst aspects of humanity

I imagined they used similar reasoning when exposing soldiers and animals to fallout in the Nevada desert, or the syphilis and LSD experiments they ran

[Captain Hilts]

1. Pigs have the closest skin. fat ratio to humans. Pigs step on landmines for Walter Reed, etc.

They've been doing this for years.

I really like pigs - they're too smart to eat - but there is a reason the military does this, especially in burn studies.

[KG]

2. what, a real live shooting war isn't providing enuff experience?

[Captain Hilts]

6. They used to station surgeons at inner city emergency rooms. nt

[Marrah_G]

17. Would you want your son or daughter to be a medic first case outside the classroom?

[Tarc]

3. I'd rather not have combat medics go in to combat with nothing but computer sims

So this is the next best thing to get them ready, really. PETA just needs to go order up a plate of cheese to go with their whine.

[Marrah_G]

18. Exactly

[Prefer]

4. Sad Sad Sad

pathetic to see this cow towing going on here.

Ain't what it used to be...

[Squatch]

5. I think PeTA has a problem with cow towing, too.

It's bad for the cows and all that

[exothermic]

9. You ever try to push one?

:rofl:

[Squatch]

11. That has its own unique set of ugly consequences

[awoke_in_2003]

39. They are much easier to tip. nt

[TahitiNut]

10. "cow towing"?? Is that covered by AAA road service?

:evilgrin:

I think the word you want is "kowtow" ... which is the Anglicized form of a Chinese (Cantonese) word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow

:hi:

[awoke_in_2003]

40. Come on, Tahiti

don't spoil all the fun:hi:

[Ian David]

7. Instead of pigs, they should use yellow elephants.

[Jeanette in FL]

13. I'm going with "Chicken Hawks"

There seems to be plenty of them around these days.

[aikoaiko]

8. The Army's plan to practice surgery skills on injured/shot pigs seems reasonable on its face.

[elocs]

12. It's amazing how actually having a loved one in a combat zone changes your perspective.

My 19 year old godson arrived this week in Afghanistan and was to the Korengal Valley, that hellhole where 9 of our troops were killed last week. Even as early as last week my thinking about this would have been different because I have worked in caring for animals and at one time in my life I was even a vegetarian for ethical reasons (I still eat very little meat), but if shooting pigs will in any way help our troops when they are wounded, then I say shoot the damn pigs. I am sure this is no worse than having hunters blast away at deer and other animals during hunting seasons where animals that escape wounded end up dying somewhere in the woods.

[RidinMyDonkey]

14. Well I'm still standing up for the pigs

There has been enough death and suffering from this war already without added unnecessary cruelty to animals yet. There is absolutely NO reason why these people can't get actual experience in the medical field. Do doctors and EMTs go out shooting unsuspecting targets for their practice? Nope. Do we trust them any less with our lives? Nooooo. Why should the army be allowed to? Especially when they are more than capable of funding actual medical experience.

[ellie]

15. Agreed

My nephew is in Afghanistan. I am not sure what the objective is there. Why don't we don't just leave and we save everyone?

[Marrah_G]

22. If your nephew is there you should know that Doctor's don't travel with the troops

Medics are soldiers, they travel with the units. They are the ones that will save your nephew's life, all while being shot at, bombed, ambushed, etc.

[Squatch]

16. I remember receiving some NBC training where they showed goats being subjected to

nerve gas. Some goats had masks on, others didn't. When the nerve gas hit, the unmasked goats would stiffen up, flop over, and do the kickin' chicken for a while until they died.

Now, thanks to that training, if I *ever* see any stiff goats, I'm either getting the hell out of there or going to MOPP 4.

[awoke_in_2003]

43. ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

[Marrah_G]

45. hahaha I love that video!

[awoke_in_2003]

49. Well, I am gonna be buying

20 acres or so for my later years. I will have some livestock on it. It will take much restraint not to get any of these. If I did, nothing would get done, because I would be out their f'ing with them all the time. Then I would call the neighbors over to watch. Then the family. I am a bad person :)

[ZombieHorde]

54. I learned something new.

[Marrah_G]

20. Are your doctors underfire dealing with gunshots and amputated limbs on the scene

If you had a loved one that was actually in harms way, you would feel differently about this. The medics do an amazing job in hellish conditions.

These aren't the doctors at the field hospital. These are young guys, traveling with units and saving countless lives.

[RidinMyDonkey]

27. I have several loved ones in Iraq

My favorite Uncle Joe and three of my cousins are serving in Iraq. Having someone I love over there changes my stance by zero. Their safety is of top concern to me, however, I still fail to see how shooting pigs is going to help keep them safe. They're not going to be safe until they're home. I'm not going to fool myself into believing otherwise.

[Marrah_G]

29. Then I don't think you realize the job that a medic does.

Your Uncle and cousins may well come home to their families because there was a medic with them that knew how to keep them alive long enough to get to the hospital. This is not something you can learn completely "on the job" without people needlessly dying.

[RidinMyDonkey]

31. Even if that is the case

I certainly don't believe that they only survived because someone shot a pig at some point. And for the record I'm not saying the entire practice should go, I just don't understand why having a live target helps them one bit. They could use something that's already dead so another living thing doesn't have to suffer.

[aspergris]

32. cmon

treating a live patient is different than a corpse.

that's the whole point

one thing is undeniably clear

1) shooting live pigs, then treating them is bona fide medical training and makes the medics BETTER medics, which saves lives

whether that justifies shooting the pigs is the question. does the benefit outweigh the cost? imo, absolutely.

[Marrah_G]

33. Dead tissue does not react the same. The pigs are not awake when shot

[RidinMyDonkey]

34. Going by that logic

Pigs are different than humans. Why aren't we practicing on humans tissue then. I know, why don't we just shoot Iraqis and practice on them.

Going through the motions of saving it is still the same. I'm not an expert, but people have been finding alternatives for a while now. I'm sure they could think of something.

But it does make me feel slightly better that they're not awake.

[Marrah_G]

38. Because the pigs tissue is very similar to humans

I am pretty sure it is illegal to shoot other humans, even in the name of medicine.

There are many other reasons why it would be stupid to use human targets, but I think you already know that.

[awoke_in_2003]

44. "pigs tissue is very similar to humans"

Bingo. That is why student practice suturing (sp?) on pig knuckles.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Pretty Simple Minded Analogy You've Got There.

Do doctors graduate college and get a job in which they are RIGHT AWAY put as the lead surgeon who would be in charge of attending to an emergency wound? Ohhhhhhhh, wait, real life doesn't work that way as it relates to surgeons and doctors? Guess your comparison is total hogwash then (no pun intended).

[NightWatcher]

19. more worthy reason to die: training medics to save lives? McD's sausage biscuit?

I know people who have/are serving over there. I'd like the medics to get the best training plus, dont we already slaughter pigs for sausage? I think that training medics is a righteous cause compared to dying to be a McD's Sausage biscuit.

[Squatch]

21. Now, the pigs can get shot, fixed up, and *then* turned into Sausage biscuits.

It's win-win!!

[Marrah_G]

24. Ooooooooooooooo

Bad, bad Squatch!

:spank:

[Squatch]

25. I know...

This thread is cracking me up.

[cobalt1999]

23. Good.

If it helps the medics learn and assist them to better treat our soldiers, then go for it.

The pigs aren't destined to live their lives in a meadow anyway, they'll end up killed for food. Better end result as far as I'm concerned.

[cliffordu]

26. I would imaging that they anesthetize the oinkers before shooting them.

Ever see a wounded 180 lb porker?? It is NOT a creature you want to get near, or have to try and shoot again.

The pigs don't feel a thing, I'd say.

I wondered why I found sutures in my last BLT.

[tuckessee]

28. Anything that helps our Stormtroopers in their quest for oil

and vengence for 9/11 is wonderful.

[Marrah_G]

30. Wow. I'm going to leave it at wow. Anything else would end up deleted by the mods.

Off you go to the land of ignore.

:hi:

[Captain Hilts]

35. It's not the troops' choice where or why they fight. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. Ehhh, I See No Issue With It. It's For The Right Reasons And Those Reasons Are Important.

Sorry piggies!!!!

[Evoman]

41. Well....normal doctors are pretty good at treating gunshot wounds and they don't shoot pigs.

Can't you just teach em what the doctors are learning?

[Marrah_G]

47. You want to send Medics to Medical school and then to do a residency at a hospital?

These are medics, they are learning how to treat the specific kinds of wounds found on the battlefield.

They aren't talking about the military doctors, they are talking about the medics in the field who stabalize our soldiers enough to hopefully get them back to the doctors.


It is not a controlled or safe enviroment.

[Evoman]

50. Well...yeah, maybe.

I mean, most paramedics are pretty good at stabilizing gunshot wounds too, I think. Call me crazy, but I'm guessing there are probably good alternatives to shooting pigs.

:shrug:

[Marrah_G]

53. Paramedics are in completely different circumstances though

Maybe someday they will have a good solution, but right now there isn't lot of time. I remember when my brother was getting ready to go over as a Navy man. His battalion had to take basic combat training and a certain percentage also had to take corpsman training as they were going to be on the ground in Iraq.

Right now its the best solution they have. Hopefully in the future they can come up with some alternative type of dummy victim, getting the bleeding and tissue right may be nearly impossible though.

[Evoman]

58. Yes, these are the kinds of things you figure out before you go to war.

Well trained medics and all. But I guess the army right now isn't very concerned with well trained soldiers.

Meh.

[Marrah_G]

64. Well duh, look who is in charge !

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. Send the medics to San Francisco General Hospital...

or Oakland or LA General for two weekends and they would have all the training they need, plain and simple. No pigs needed.

If our medics are being trained in such a way that is too rushed or is only based on shot pigs, then I fear for our troops -- the Army needs to be doing a better job at training, frankly.

[Marrah_G]

65. Really? Hospitals are going to allow their patients to be practice victims for the military?

Who is liable if the patient doesn't make it?

[awoke_in_2003]

48. And normal doctors

go through an extensive internship where they can hone their skills. Medics do not have that luxury.

on edit: spelling.

[Evoman]

51. A month or two at an inner city hospital would basically guarantee a couple of gunshot wounds.

And some stabbings to boot....might be very useful for medics. Might learn some other skills too. I mean, how many pigs does one need to shoot to get adequate experience. One? Two?

I don't know. I'm not a vegetarian or anything, but this sounds like a really dumb idea.

[Marrah_G]

55. A couple gun shots in a trauma center isnt the same

The medics are literally on the battlefield dealing with actual battle wounds. It's all about learning how to get our boys stable enough to get to a hospital while someone or many someone's are actively trying to kill you.

[Evoman]

59. Well....but while they do these pig excercises, are they going to be fired at?

Really...it doesn't seem all that realistic if your going to just shoot a sedated pig on a field...not more realistic than a victim who was shot on the street, anyways. Hell, if they did a stint as a paramedic or something, they might also see burns, car crashes, and other traumas. Unless, of course, they are also going to use the pigs to simulate an IED attack.

[Marrah_G]

63. What hospital or EMT service is going to risk the liability?

If your family member was shot would you want a 19 year old soldier practicing on them?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

60. Clearly you have not spent much time...

at the ER of a large, urban hospital. I have on, on a few too many occassions.

I guess the one guy I saw being wheeled in on a gurney with half his brains hanging out of his skull from a gunshot wound wouldn't be anything similar to what they would see on a battlefield.

Nor the guy who had multiple gunshot wounds to his body, including one to his chest that was bleeding so badly the backboard and gurney were awash with blood.

Come visit San Francisco General with me on a Saturday night during a September and we will talk about what qualifies as battlefield injuries.

[Marrah_G]

62. I'm thinking the Medic would much prefer San Fransisco General.

This isn't just a matter of the wounds, it is a matter of getting these guys trained quick enough to accompany their units. In a perfect world I would agree with you, but the reality just isn't like that.

What hospital is going to allow a soldier to practice on their patients? Can you imagine the liability?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Meh.

Would you rather volunteer for the experiment?

[lonestarnot]

46. Fucking gorey cruel bastards!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

52. There is NO reason for them to be doing this....

:mad: If they want their surgeons trained on gunshot wounds, just send them to a large city's general hospital for a few weekends -- they will have the chance to work on all the gun shot sounds they need. They used to do that back in the 90s all the time -- I remember reading articles and seeing reports on it.

When the Presidio was still an active base, the Army was set to do a test on dogs where they were put in a "tumbler" to sustain blunt trauma injuries so the docs could work on them. The outcry here in SF was so great, they were forced to stop the test.

[Marrah_G]

57. They aren't training the surgeons, they are training the MEDICS

[azul]

61. Whoa, doggie. Respect creation and all life if you aspire to self respect.

This or that animal is not your property, nor is your own body entirely. It is the work of a creator or creation and deserves inherent respect when you wake up to the fact of creation. Humans were merely involved in the breeding and rearing.

IMO mankind lacks the knowledge to make value judgments on life. We do not see or know the stuff behind life's existence, yet have the beliefs of superstition that this or that living thing has a soul and is superior to this or that life that we have judged so lacking. We simply have not the humility to say that we don't know enough about it and treat all life with respect until we are enlightened as to our place in creation.

If you can kill this animal with righteousness, the next step is to dehumanize this or that person and kill them without remorse also. And then you've lost your humanity and self-respect and so this sad mindlessness continues.




Doctors can train on corpses for technique and then on live wounds next to a teacher until proficient. They do not have to be alone until they are competent, which should not be that long.