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Hey, foreigners! Do any of your countries have a pledge of allegiance to your country's flag?

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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:53 AM
Original message
Hey, foreigners! Do any of your countries have a pledge of allegiance to your country's flag?

Or something similar to it?

By the way, did Nazi Germany?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sad. I remember when the pledge of allegiance wasn't a bad thing.
Or maybe the country we pledged to wasn't.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It's just not worth...
getting worked up about. Take "under God" out of it and I have no problem with it whatsoever.

We have bigger problems.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm not religious, but 'under God' doesn't bother me as much
as pledging allegiance to a country that's let me down. And yes, we do have bigger problems, not being proud of my country being one of them.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Agreed. And it's not a good feeling....
.... I was at a Tigers game last week, and felt as cold as ice when the national anthem was sung - I almost felt hostile toward it. That's never happened to me before.


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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. this country has lost its soul, singing or saluting now
just does not feel right, we have been betrayed and it is time for us to take back the country. Really.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm pretty disappointed in my government...
and all the folks that either voted for Bush in 2004 - when they should have known better - and all the folks who didn't think it important enough to vote in 2004, thus giving him another four years.

Then I look at all the other countries that went along with the Iraq War despite strong public opinion against it - Spain, England, Italy, etc. All got suckered into a war about 'freedom'. Fools. Canada got it right this time.
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. In Spain, elected officials and military do this:
Kiss the flag -which is similar to a pledge, but completely silent and much quicker. This is in a country that was a right-wing dictatorship as recently as 33 years ago, but is now a vibrant *progessive* democracy (mostly).




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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Please, PLEASE stop the Nazi Germany references.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Definitely, stop that shit now.
I think the Nazis are getting offended by it.
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Why? Personally, I'm terrified of history repeating itself.
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 09:46 AM by KzooDem
My mother LIVED in Nazi Europe, and she and her family fled Hitler's march into France literally a few days before it would have been too late.

She is sickened to see some of the same things happening here that took place in Germany and Europe in the approach to tyranny by the Nazis. Nationalism was the same sick calling card that is now engendered by the Bush administration and the GOP.

It is HIGHLY RELEVANT to make the comparison. No, we aren't throwing people into gas chambers by the train load (yet), but some things are sounding very familiar. History: learn from it or repeat it.

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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. You don't have to systematically kill 12 million people for there to be parallels
with Germany in the 1930s, you know.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. There certainly isn't in Canada
We don't go for the "patriot" thing here. At all.

I like to fly the flag at my house, but most people don't.

Oh, and yes, the Nazis had pledges up the yin-yang. At every occasion. Any excuse would do to make a pledge of some kind.
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. We aren't religiously patriotic in Canada, but we do love our country
By "religiously patriotic" I mean the whole iconic system of worship the world associates with US imperialism, focusing on "the (US) flag", "the (US) pledge", "the (US) commander in chief", "the (US) troops", "the (US) homeland", etc.

That system of worship is the trappings (common language) of the US's particular style of imperialism. The most telling icons are the military honorifics "Commander in Chief" substituting for "president" and "homeland" substituting for "the US". These become required in a country devoted 100% to perpetual imperialistic war, where the president's first and only significant job is to prosecute the war, where "security" issues have to be divided between policing "the homeland" vs policing the world, in particular "securing" newly occupied countries that haven't yet been pounded into complete abject submission.

Contra those who object to comparisons, I do think comparisons with other major and minor imperialist states are in order. Sure, comparisons with the Nazi period in Germany are odious, but IMO they're sadly appropriate - comparisons re. iconic trappings like flag worship etc., and comparisons re. tools of oppression such as Gitmo, black sites, gulags, concentration camps. Also comparisons re. dehumanizing techniques designed to instill general fear in whole populations, whether practiced against specifically targeted groups like "Jews" and "homosexuals" etc., or against the entire world of non-US-citizens who may be "gitmoized", disappeared, or taken out with some FUD term like "enemy combatants". How else, except by making these comparisons, can one understand not just the fact of the US using F16s to target neighborhoods in Baghdad 7 years after a "liberation" turned into a blatant occupation, but the fact that the population of the US still doesn't understand, in their hearts, in their language, what's going on there?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. The over four years I lived in Canada, I was surprised by how few Canadians...
really seemed to like Canada. A lot saw it as a backward version of the US or the UK.

I have kin in Canada and both sides of my family came to the US through there, so I was far more pro-Canada than most of them.
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I suppose it depends on who one tends to hang with.
In Canada it's "the right" which is pro-US to the point of slavishness, so tends to be less patriotic, less proud of those qualities which make Canada distinct. Of course, qualities that make Canada distinct from the US tend to be political-economic, like a truly universal national health plan and other sectors that the right hasn't managed to privatize yet. In BC the right is trying its damnedest to privatize the electric grid, the transportation system, etc., and ise doing a great job of it so far. The technique prior to privatization tends to be, of course, a mass propoganda campaign to diss those distinctly (and definitively) Canadian sectors as unintelligent bureaucratic drains on the economy, something to be ashamed of - tho' increasingly mass privatizations tend to be presented as fait accomplis, worked out in back rooms and rushed through before significant debate or discussion can even begin. In any event, in a curious inversion of the case in the US, "patriotism" doesn't tend to be promoted by the right in Canada, but by the left, and the left here doesn't equate patriotism with foreign wars, with jingoism - and the language of patriotism is quite different. Perhaps not recognizable as such to someone trained to hear only one, and different, tune.

I shouldn't say "the left" as if it's only "the left" that's patriotic and proud of our accomplishments. In fact the vast majority of Canadians are proud of our health care plan, our national parks, our achievements in communications which require a large degree of "socialization" to cover an entire country of vast spaces and few people, and so on. It seems to me, and to opinion polling as well, that the kind of pride and patriotism that I speak of is a wide commonality and not just reserved for hyped up leftist politicos.

On the other hand, Canada definitely has become more complacent in recent decades. Increasingly, we're tending to "forget" that those aspects of the Canadian political-economy that are most unique are indispensible for our existence as an independent country. Since most of those aspects are, of course, socialization factors determined by the existential need to unite vast spaces with cohesive unifying networks of infrastructure that, by their very nature, can't be privatized and still be what they were meant to be and do what they were meant to do.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yes ALL Canadians I met...
liked their healthcare plan - ALL - conservative, liberal and inbetween.

I noticed conservatives were very pro-US and that this was accompanied by a disdain of much that is Canada, but I was dismayed at how liberals I knew - folks out of Trent U.,etc. were very anti-US but also seemed disgusted with much of Canada. I was a bit disappointed.

The RMC crowd was kind of creepy.

I WISH I had been able to get one of those buttons: "US OUT OF NORTH AMERICA." I thought that was funny!
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well, Canadians do have a peculiarly self-depracating way of damning ourselves
with faint praise, even in regard our accomplishments. Perhaps that's because we're geographically and economically so tightly linked with the US, and the US takes a leadership role by sheer size. A bit of an inferiority complex, perhaps.

Don't be fooled by the conservative set, tho'. It's very right-wing, esp. under Harper and the "Reform" movement that grew out of Alberta and then BC - and the Reform "base" is the identical kind as is called, grotesquely, a "values-voter" type base in the US. Canadians have to fight a never-ending battle to retain our medical plan, but not in an all-or-nothing way. Rather, the right tries to eliminate it piecemeal, e.g. introducing for profit hospital/clinics for this, for that, and the other, while squeezing funding all the while. All at the same time they're privatizing our natural resources base, cutting taxes for the rich, etc. etc. The joe average conservatives who say they "like" our healthcare plan are extremely easily swayed by arguments that these right-wing moves somehow enhance our system by "giving more choice" etc. That's why they're called "conservatives". The joe average liberal wants to maintain the status quo, whatever it is at the moment.

Perhaps our most progressive period came under the leadership of Lester Pearson, a Liberal. It's worth the time to look his bio up on wiki - it shows how under his admin Canada introduced plenty of progressive programs. But don't jump to conclusions about the "Liberals" being somehow progressive, defined by those programs. Pearson's was a minority gov't and required support of our 3rd party, the leftist, union and worker oriented and progressive oriented (but unfortunately not so much small independent entrepreneur oriented) NDP. The only time the Canadian Liberal party makes actual movement in a progressive direction is under a minority gov't, where giving some satisfaction to the NDP platform is the key to sustaining their grip on power. For leftist/progressive Canadians, a time of (federal) Liberal majority leadership is a temporary hiatus where nothing much happens, usually - but Lib majorities do give a certain calm after the storm of Conservative majority gov'ts which are totally obnoxious - both maddening and embarrassing.

People are the same everywhere, and Canadians are more the same as US americans than different, that's for sure. Pushed and pulled by the identical political-economic forces. The big difference, politically, seems to that our system allows for the existence of viable 3rd parties, and a 3rd party on the left only sometimes causes a "split" between the "center" (the do nothing, couch potato type Liberals) and the "left". And that's why I'm so enthusiastic about the emergence of a "netroots" progressive base in the US! Without it, the situation would be totally hopeless - with no means whatever to pressure the lazy uninformed do nothing "centrist liberals".
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nope.
.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. I have no issue with the pledge of alliegence.
I also have no issue with the Star Spangled Banner.

:shrug:
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. I'm with you. n/t
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
14. Er, what's the problem you have with the Pledge of Allegiance?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Why is it necessary?
Why do school children say it every day, anyway?

I think its purpose is conformity and conditioning.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Other than the "under God," part I have no problem with the words. But

the idea of doing a pledge of allegiance seems so...nationalistic.
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BridgeTheGap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. There is a huge distinction between policy & ideals
To me, the pledge of allegiance should be more toward the ideal of democratic governance and the bill of rights. The flag is a piece of cloth too often carried into the most heinous of actions for dubious reasons. I certainly do not pledge allegiance to that shit!
We need serious changes in this country and I will pledge allegiance to making those changes happen!
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. hmm...do you see "with liberty and justice for all" now
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. "Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use...
"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead." - Arundhati Roy
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. Making a big show of patriotism seems to be an American thing
Another queston I have: are any other countries so obsessed with their flags? Do British people fly Union Jacks at their houses, wear T-shirts with it, have a million different little products with it? Like pencils and coffee cups and the like?
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Counter Question:
Assuming that they don't, does it really matter? The American national "identity" is one of the most unique to ever come up in history. Should we, as Americans, conform to what other nations do?
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. On what basis is our nationalism so unique?
It's just nationalism taken to an extreme. People have completely forgotten what we're supposed to stand for but they blindly and proudly proclaim "We're the greatest Woooohoooo". It's nauseating.

I personally think that the pledge should be replaced with people reciting a few lines of the constitution every day. Each day of the month it could be a different passage.

Without the constitution this country is completely meaningless. Just another stupid empire full of stupid flag wavers.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I have seen lots of Brits in tshirts bearing the Union Jack.
In fact, I bet I can find more than a few album covers with it.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It doesnt mean the same thing.

It's a pop culture symbol at best.
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. The fire trucks in Portage, MI all have huge flags affixed to the rear of the truck.
When they blaze through the suburban streets with their sirens wailing, a huge (6' x 8') flag can be seen flapping off the back of the truck. This started in the wake of 2001. I sometimes half expect people to get out of their cars and put their hands over their heart as the truck rumbles by.

Now whenever I see this ridiculous display of nationalism, I say to whomever might be within ear-shot: "Wow, if it weren't for that big ole' flag flapping off the back, I would have never guessed that we were in the United States."

Some people scowl. Some people laugh.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. Mine had a loyalty pledge back around 1750 in Canada. Acadians wouldn't
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 05:38 PM by applegrove
take it so after 150 years farming beautiful land they got shipped off to Louisianna.
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