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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:04 AM
Original message
I Told you so, I told you so .... Oil Prices
The price of oil dropped yesterday, the largest drop in 17 years.

Every time I came here and said oil prices were artificially inflated and that the mess in the oil patch had nothing to do with supply and demand I was told to eat shit and die; demeaned as an idiot. It was worse than saying the emperor has no clothes, and I don't mean the current emperor either.

Watch.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Somebody lost a shitload of $$$$ yesterday. n/t
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aspergris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. And somebody MADE a shitload
What most retail investors don't understand is that FUTURES markets (and oil is primarily TRADED in futures) are zero sum

stock markets aren't

zero sum markets (futures, options, forex) have an exact exchange of money. there is never an aggregate win or loss overall in any zero sum market.

In the stock market, in the long run, the VAST majority of investors make money. And that's possible because it's not zero sum

futures market, NO money (overall) is made or lost, once you factor out commission

Shorts BANKED yesterday. I caught some scalp short action but nowhere near the full ride :)

something to keep in mind about futures markets
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Petrodollar valuation? nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agreed with you all along
It's wholly artificial state of affairs.
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newfie11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think this is the end.
I agree the price is manipulated but I bet it will be back up and fairly soon.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Don't think so
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:41 AM by ThomWV
Lookie here ....

There are two parts to speculation, you can bet on prices going up and make money, you can bet on prices going down and make money.

Recently all the money has been betting on the price going up and it was indeed a self fulfilling prophecy. Once the price aims the other way Speculators will abandon the market and start making their bets on the price going down - and when that happens, possibly today, then the price will collapse.

Mark my words, by election day you will be paying half as much for gas as you do today. I have said this before - you may have seen the outcry from the peak-oil folks - and if America were to wake up we'd call this what it is, robbery.
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newfie11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. I hope you are right
but trying to time the market is not for me. I stupidly sold all my oil/coal stocks thinking they were as high as I felt safe. That was 5 months ago! No I am not buying anything right now. Everything is sitting in the money market.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Prices back up along about Nov. 4
And really whirling UP UP UP in Dec. = Jan. as the republicons hand over the keys to the White House...

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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
48. That is exactly what I expect to happen.
Oil companies have seen those same polls we have indicating that Obama and Dems as a whole are are polling well right now. They can't afford to let fuel prices remain an issue for the voters and they are gonna "drop" prices for as long as it takes for it NOT to be a major issue any more.

Look for gas prices to drop to someplace around $2.50 a gallon for a while.



Laura
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. We'll see. In 2004 and 2006 gas price movements were pretty random around election time.
- up 8 cents from early October to early November in 2004 and down 8 cents in the same time period in 2006. The year they really dropped in that time frame was in 2005 when gas prices dropped 59 cents in a month, but there was no election that year.

In 2004 after going up a little before the election, gas prices went down by 20 cents by the end of the year. In 2006 the drop in the month before the election continued afterwards by 7 more cents by the end of January.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/ftparea/wogirs/xls/pswrgvwall.xls

It will be interesting to see if there is a change in the pattern this election cycle.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've been attacked over the issue as well.
It's as if people had rather oil prices stay sky high and keep going up just to prove their theories. However, myself, I bought transportation stocks last week betting on decline of oil prices.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. Who told you to "eat shit and die"?
Links?
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Mostly peak oil fanatics
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:43 AM by ThomWV
Go do a search, do you think I bother to bookmark every dam post I make?
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. If you're gonna make statements like that ...
I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you're right. You said it.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. Lehman's energy analyst sez oil will be at $85 at the end of the year.
To me, this means a Dem win, as the new prez won't be moving all our $$$ to Bush's cronies. But what they said was that the Saudis and OPEC realize that you can;t sustain these high prices cuz after awhile it makes people want to seriously make changes to move away from oil dependence.

We are soooooo being played! Peak oil, to me, means the peak prices these crooks have been able to exact from us.

Trump is on Howard Stern's show right now saying that there are ships laden with oil sailing all over the world right now, not even knowing where to put the gobs of oil their carrying around.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Even extraction of shale based oil is profitable
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:49 AM by mmonk
at $2 a gallon of refined gasoline. I had been trying to calculate what the price of oil should be just given the dollar and our inflationary situation and was coming out at between $60-$70 barrel oil though I don't think the industry will settle at that (I think they will settle between $80-$100).
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
58. I think it roughly costs $30/barrel to produce oil today
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. Umm, DUers have been demeaning you for saying speculation
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 06:45 AM by hlthe2b
was behind the oil $$? Seriously? You must have been hanging out in an area of DU that I haven't seen... I think MOST if not rearly ALL DUers ae smart enough to know this... Are you serious?
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. I have gotten it too.
There are some who seem to welcome the idea of an economic apocalypse.

Personally, while I think that Peak Oil is a cautionary tale for the very near future, a call to substantive action, I also think that the subject has been played as psyops by those who would use it as a cover for rampant and preditory speculation.
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exothermic Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
40. All fiduciary speculation is predatory...it depends on someone getting fucked.
:eyes:
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. Pain Threshold Check...
Oil dropped last week, then picked up all it lost and then some the next day...and so it goes.

Note that the price dropped as Clueless Paulson and Helicopter Ben were begging for more taxpayer money to bail out their Wall Street buddies.

It seems prices may be "levelling" for now...getting everyone used to the current price...and if prices drop then we're all gonna be "happy campers" to be paying $4 or $3.50 a gallon...taking the heat away from the oil companies for a short bit and then setting the stage for the next run-up.

The speculators are all but played out in the oil game for now...they're on to buying up bushels of September corn, wheat and other commodities...the next big price run up this fall.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. I knew it couldn't last . . .
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. There are both long term and short term trends.
It's true that oil was artificially inflated (and still is), and it's also true that the dropping dollar is causing a great deal of the price of oil; however, it's also true that the the long term trend is for drastically higher prices because demand will outstrip supply. It's all three of these.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. I agree with you
and I think we will continue to see a steady increase in the price of oil with large drops and peaks in price for several years to come.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. it's election time...troops are coming home. gas is falling. now that damned economy...
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. I knew you would be back.
You just can't stay away. :hi:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Don't bet on it
You'll lose that bet.
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
18. Oil prices have been overinflated by speculation...
...however, there are fundamentals that will keep the price over 100 bucks a barrel for the foreseeable future, because even with these prices, there is not yet a big enough glut of oil to bring them down.

I'm not surprised they fell, and they may well fall further, but that doesn't mean we should expect to ever see $2 gas again, and in the long-term, declining production and increasing population/consumption will make petroleum an increasingly pricey commodity.

I don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder about this. Who cares if someone disagreed with you on this?


By the way, yesterday's drop was only the largest in terms of dollars, not the largest percentage drop. Obviously, a $3 drop in the price of oil back in the $30/bbl days was a bigger deal than a $10 drop today...
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. There won't be a glut because the oil producing countries
won't allow it, however it's elastic enough that it could drop below $100 a barrel. They will sustain it at a higher level than necessary though given the run up. They will lock in profit for future flexibility.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
46. I will tell you why he has that chip:
It is because when one has the temerity to speak up about the rampant and destructive speculation taking place in the oil and other markets, speculation that is causing a lot of destruction, there are some here who are more than happy to crawl up your ass on a 24-foot extension ladder and scream "Peak Oil and nothing but Peak Oil".

The situation is far more complex than that. One can form the impression that some are rooting for the complete downfall of civilization, which would suck for them, because a collapsed civilization has really poor TV and Internet service.
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. As is often the case, more than one thing is true.
Sure people who scream about peak oil, or are convinced that sea level will rise 3 meters by 2020, can be annoying, but so can people who point to every little dip in oil prices as evidence that things are going back to the way they were a decade or two (and that by extension, everything is going to be hunky-dory).

Clearly things are not going to go back to the way they were, and we are facing a major realignment in the way we power our civilization.

That doesn't mean the OP Is wrong - prices may decline further - but I do think that a profound shift is under way that is different than the oil shocks we've had in the past, and I don't think I'm especially pessimistic.



There are all kinds of panicmongers here - people who insist that flight 93 was hit by a missile, that the WTC and tower 7 were felled by pre-set explosives, that no republican has ever won an election without "Diebolding" it, that we are only a few short years away from a swamped inferno of an earth, and I sometimes mix it up with them, but I certainly don't take what they asay personally.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. I don't take them personally either.
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 12:04 PM by Tandalayo_Scheisskop
If someone is being reasonable, then I continue the conversation. If not, then I move onward to other discussions. It's easy when you have your own computer. ;-)

On edit: Surely, there are those here(and I cannot give you their names, because I just blow them off) who have agendas that are...larger. Not in our best interests, shall we say. Life is too short to challenge them all.

On the larger web, they exist as well and some of them I am quite suspicious of their motives, their "librul" bona fides or not.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. a single day doesn't prove jack
especially when it can and recently has gone up nearly as much in one day and certainly in two consecutive days. a few percent is extremely minor in the scheme of things.

if this is the start of a big downward trend, then fantastic. but it's a bit premature to be claiming anything about this at all.

and by the way, if it were "artificially inflated", you might expect prices to trend down in the absence of news. that hasn't happened.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oil was at $27.69 a barrel when bush took office.
Even a decline in usuable petroleum wouldn't rise that far that quickly.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. demand has skyrocketed and the dollar has tanked
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 08:26 AM by unblock
china and india are booming, we're been shipping more and more, driving bigger cars, opec is stronger and shrub BOUGHT oil to fill up the strategic reserve.

and oil prices are notoriously sensitive to even minor changes in supply and demand.

there are many reasons for oil prices to be sky-high. the only reason for prices to come back down has been the risk of the economy getting worse, thereby reducing demand. that was the main reason behind this one-day drop.


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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Sorry but I doubt demand has risen over five times
the worldwide rate. It would move more at steady pace than rapid explosion. Of course I have been figuring in the declining dollar. The move on demand has risen but the market eventually clears after the lag. I do not see as rapid cost expenditure for big oil since they have reached record PROFIT recently. I would have to see their costs rise at the same rate to be convinced.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. of course demand hasn't rise fivefold, yow! that would make oil worth $millions / bbl.
oil prices are highly sensitive to small changes in supply and demand, largely because, in the short run, people and businesses can't do much to alter their consumption, so they'll buy nearly the same amount at nearly any price. we all complain but we still drive the same car the same distance to work. in the long run, we might choose more efficient cars, etc., but in the short run we put up with it.

as for profit, you have to believe strongly in those capitalism myths they teach in college economics course to believe that profit levels have anything to do with it. in the short run, excess profits don't do much of anything except make suppliers more at risk of competitive price wars. that doesn't happen often in the oil business because there are too few suppliers and they implicitly or even explicitly work in concert. in the long run, excess profits attract more competitors, but again, this doesn't happen in the oil business because of barriers of entry, such as the fact that all the oil fields are taken. if i wanted to compete and get me some of those outsized profits, how exactly could i start my own company to undersell the saudis? i can't. so what might work in other industries doesn't work in the oil biz.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
25. What I don't understand is...
...why can't BOTH things be factors?
Speculation AND Peak Oil?
Can't they both affect things?
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive to so many people?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. My argument re: Creation v. Evolution
Why isn't evolution ever cited as a process of creation?

But that's another thread.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
28. wow, so you are right one day in a row. that's quite a record.
:eyes:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. 'one day in a row'
:spray: < - - literally!
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Danascot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. Prediction
$5/gallon by the end of this year.

$7/gallon by 2010.

Oil prices, supply and demand are extremely complex but even if US demand drops somewhat, the rest of the world continues to increase consumption and worldwide demand will keep rising. Even if global oil pricing stays constant, the falling value of the U$D will make the price go up for us relatively in the US.

Only a worldwide recession could cause oil prices to drop significantly, which would be worse for us than the cost of gas.

Sorry, 25 years of irresponsible economic policy (including energy) and a perfect storm of circumstances has to produce consequences.

This isn't over. Plan accordingly.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
33. Nobody told you to eat shit and die and no one called you an idiot.
The reason oil prices went down yesterday is because financial sector holdings were liquidated to raise cash for bank runs and margin calls.

From the http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/business/16fed.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin">New York Times:


-snip-

Mr. Bernanke was especially pessimistic about any easing of energy prices, dismissing suggestions that they were being driven by speculation in futures markets. Instead, he said high energy costs reflected the markets’ recognition that demand was outstripping supplies.

“Over the past several years, the world economy has expanded at its fastest pace in decades, leading to substantial increases in the demand for oil,” Mr. Bernanke said. “On the supply side, despite sharp increases in prices, the production of oil has risen only slightly in the past few years.”

-snip-


And from the http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/07/20080715-1.html">chimp:


-snip-

Q Gas prices are now approaching $5 a gallon in some parts of the country. Offshore oil exploration is obviously a long-term approach. What is the short-term advice for Americans? What can you do now to help them?

THE PRESIDENT: First of all, there is a psychology in the oil market that basically says, supplies are going to stay stagnant while demand rises. And that's reflected somewhat in the price of crude oil. Gasoline prices are reflected -- the amount of a gasoline price at the pump is reflected in the price of crude oil. And therefore, it seems like it makes sense to me to say to the world that we're going to use new technologies to explore for oil and gas in the United States -- offshore oil, ANWR, oil shale projects -- to help change the psychology, to send a clear message that the supplies of oil will increase.

Secondly, obviously good conservation measures matter. I've been reading a lot about how the automobile companies are beginning to adjust -- people -- consumers are beginning to say, wait a minute, I don't want a gas guzzler anymore, I want a smaller car. So the two need to go hand in hand. There is no immediate fix. This took us a while to get in this problem; there is no short-term solution. I think it was in the Rose Garden where I issued this brilliant statement: If I had a magic wand -- but the President doesn't have a magic wand. You just can't say, low gas. It took us a while to get here and we need to have a good strategy to get out of it.

Q But you do have the Strategic Oil Petroleum Reserve. What about opening that?

THE PRESIDENT: The Strategic Oil Petroleum Reserve is for, you know, emergencies. But that doesn't address the fundamental issue. And we need to address the fundamental issue, which I, frankly, have been talking about since I first became President -- which is a combination of using technology to have alternative sources of energy, but at the same time finding oil and gas here at home. And now is the time to get it done. I heard somebody say, well, it's going to take seven years. Well, if we'd have done it seven years ago we'd be having a different conversation today. I'm not suggesting it would have completely created -- you know, changed the dynamics in the world, but it certainly would have been -- we'd have been using more of our own oil and sending less money overseas.

-snip-


and...


-snip-

Q Following up on the question about oil, in the past, when oil prices have gone up a lot, they've wound up going down a lot afterward. But I wonder if you're able to say that oil prices in the future are going to come down a lot.

THE PRESIDENT: I can't predict, John. I mean, look, my attitude is, is that unless there is a focused effort -- in the short term -- unless there's a focused effort to bring more supplies to market, there's going to be a lot of upward pressure on price. We got 85 million barrels a day and -- of demand and 86 million barrels of production. And it's just -- it's too narrow a spread, it seems like to me.

Now, I'm encouraged by, you know, the Caspian Basin exploration. I'm encouraged that the Saudis are reinvesting a lot into their older fields. And remember, some of these oil fields get on the decline rate, which requires a lot of investment to keep their production up to previous levels. So one thing we look at is how much money is being reinvested in some of those fields. I'm encouraged by that.

I am discouraged by the fact that some nations subsidize the purchases of product, like gasoline, which, therefore, means that demand may not be causing the market to adjust as rapidly as we'd like. I was heartened by the fact that the Chinese the other day announced that they're going to start reducing some of their subsidies, which all of a sudden you may have some, you know, demand-driven changes in the overall balance.

But, look, if we conserve and find more energy, we will done -- have done our part to address, you know, the global market right now. And the other thing is that this is just a transition period. I mean, all of us want to get away from reliance upon hydrocarbons, but it's not going to happen overnight. One of these days people are going to be using battery technologies in their cars. You've heard me say this a lot. I'm confident it's going to happen. And the throw-away line, of course, is that your car won't have to look like a golf cart.

But the question then becomes, where are we going to get electricity? And that's why I'm a big believer in nuclear power, to be able to make us less dependent on oil and better stewards of the environment. But there is a transition period during the hydrocarbon era, and it hasn't ended yet, as our people now know. Gasoline prices are high.

Again, I don't want to be a "I told you so," but if you go back and look at the strategy we put out early on in this administration, we understood what was coming. We knew the markets were going to be tight. And therefore, we called for additional exploration at home, plus what has been happening, which is an acceleration of new technologies -- including ethanol technologies -- to get us less dependent on crude oil from overseas.

-snip-


and...


-snip-

Q `You never mention oil companies. Are you confident that American oil producers are tapping all of the sources they have out there, including offshore? And on Iraq, will you sign an interim agreement with Prime Minister Maliki on American operations in Iraq, leaving it to your successor to do a more permanent agreement?

THE PRESIDENT: There are -- let me start with Iraq. We're in the process of working on a strategic framework agreement with the Iraqi government that will talk about cooperation on a variety of fronts -- diplomacy, economics, justice. Part of that agreement is a security agreement, and I believe that -- you know, they want to have an aspirational goal as to how quickly the transition to what we have called overwatch takes place. Overwatch will mean that the U.S. will be in a training mission, logistical support as well as special ops.

In order for our troops to be in a foreign country, there must be an understanding with the government. There must be authorities to operate, as well as protections for our troops. We're in the process of negotiating that, as well. And it needs to be done prior to the year because -- unless, of course, the U.N. mandate is extended. And so there are two aspects to the agreement -- people seem to conflate the two -- and we're working both of them simultaneously.

Let's see here.

Q American oil producers?

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, what was the question again on that?

Q You talked about offshore --

THE PRESIDENT: What about them -- do I think they're investing capital to find more reserves with the price at $140 a barrel? Absolutely. Take an offshore exploration company. First of all, it costs a lot of money to buy the lease, so they tie up capital. Secondly, it takes a lot of money to do the geophysics, to determine what the structure may or may not look like. That ties up capital. Then they put the rig out there. Now, first of all, in a federal offshore lease, if you're not exploring within a set period of time, you lose your bonus; you lose the amount of money that you paid to get the lease in the first place.

And once you explore, your first exploratory, if you happen to find oil or gas, it is -- you'll find yourself in a position where a lot of capital is tied up. And it becomes in your interest, your economic interest, to continue to explore so as to reduce the capital costs of the project on a per-barrel basis. And so I -- I think -- I think they're exploring. And hopefully a lot of people continue to explore so that the supply of oil worldwide increases relative to demand.

Now, people say, what about the speculators? I think you can't help but notice there is some volatility in price in the marketplace, which obviously there are some people in the -- buying and selling on a daily basis. On the other hand, the fundamentals are what's really driving the long-term price of oil, and that is, demand for oil has increased, and supply has not kept up with it. And so part of our strategy in our country has got to be to say, okay, here are some suspected reserves and that we ought to go after them in an environmentally friendly way.

A buddy of mine said, well, what about the reefs? So I'm concerned about the reefs. I'm a fisherman, I like to fish, reefs are important for fisheries. But the technology is such that you can protect the reefs. You don't have to drill on top of a reef. You can drill away from a reef and then have a horizontal hole to help you explore a reservoir.

It's like in Alaska. You know, in the old days, you would have had to have -- if you ever go out to West Texas, you'll see, there's like a rig every 20 acres, depending upon the formation. In Alaska you can have one pad with a lot of horizontal drilling, which enables you to exploit the resources in a way that doesn't damage the environment. These are new technologies that have come to be, and yet we've got an old energy policy that hasn't recognized how the industry has changed. And now is the time to get people to recognize how the industry has changed.

-snip-


and...


-snip-

I fully understand that this is a transition period away from hydrocarbon, but we ought to be wise about how we use our own resources.

-snip-


They're practically SCREAMING that we have supply challenges yet they both do it in a nuanced fashion. TRHEE TIMES he says we are in a transition period away from hydrocarbons.

You know, these people are trying to tell us something but I guess the message is just for those of us discerning enough, with regard to oil, that a finite resource can be depleted.

You go ahead and believe whatever you want though.


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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. Texasexplorer
Sure hope you're right, since there are likely more bank runs and margin calls on the way.

Personally, I expect that oil will drop significantly at least up until the election. The power holders totally want to keep friends of oil in the white house and the best way to do that is to keep prices heading down so they can say the worst is over. Until after the election, of course, after which it's biz as usual.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
35. tanking again today...
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Tanking on a 3 milllion barrel inventory build for previous week. n/t
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. and people are actually starting to
publicly discuss the economic slowdown in the US...

sP
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
37. The subtext in posts like this
There are any number of posts like this that promote some kind of denial narrative: "it's the speculators," "it's BushCo," "it's a bubble," etc. The implication is that high oil prices are an aberration, some kind of blip that will pass when the bad actors get their comeuppance and then things will get back to normal.

In this case, "normal" means cheap, abundant gasoline and a return to the comfy status quo.

It's sad to see how far from reality wishful thinking can go. The speculative premium is just plausible enough to deny global oil decline, but to suggest that the premium is more than a few percentage points is really grasping at straws.

Three-digit prices are the new normal. Time to start dealing with it.

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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
41. We'll see. You've still got a year to go on this prediction...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Yeah, maybe. But the automobile will STILL be the crystal meth of machines -
They make you think you're younger, stronger and sexier than you really are while rotting out your teeth from the inside....

A little one hundred year abberration in the history of mankind that seems to be effectively putting an end to the lot of us on soooo many different levels.

War, pollution, global warming......Just so we can drive to the Megamall. Listen to some tunes. And my generation, the first one to ALWAYS have cars in their lives, cannot seem to see it for what it is.

Can't be inconvenienced enough to change anything.


I Spent fifty bucks on gas last year. Not one fucking dime this year.


Y'all can have my allotment of driving pleasure.
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boomerbust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
43. Expect
A little sabre rattling in the near future, that will keep the crude prices steady.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
44. And at the same time gas went up five cents a gallon here
crazy world we live in.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
45. Question. When in your lifetime has oil ever dropped to below a price
That was lower than an earlier price and stayed there to the point where everyone would say oil will never go higher again?
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
50. I've been saying that the last two years.
The oil prices are completely made up. It has nothing to do with supply and demand.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
51. Here's a good article on factors which affect oil price volatility
http://www.mees.com/postedarticles/oped/v48n13-5OD01.htm

If you want only the short version:

-- There is some evidence that suggests volatility drifts upwards as OPEC meetings approach.

-- The gradual erosion of OPEC spare capacity.

-- The shift in the strategy of inventory management by international oil companies.

-- The increasing importance of the oil futures market in the current oil pricing system.

-- The deterioration (or no improvement) in the quality and timeliness of data on oil-related factors.

-- Daily oil price movements are affected not only by current fundamentals of the market but also by market participants’ expectations about future supply and demand of crude oil in the futures market.


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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. OPEC is a prime example of the Export Land Model...
Look it up yourself.

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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Thanks, TE. haven't heard that term before
Mexico would fit that model as well.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. In fact, Mexico is oil production has peaked...
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I'm aware of the situation in Mexico
Cantarell's slide should be 3 inch headlines in US papers, along with the increasing awareness that Saudi Aramco simply hasn't got the spare capacity they claim. Yet the US continues to accept SA's reserve numbers without question.

I think one of the points being made in the above article was that both supply/demand issues and futures traders have impacted the pricing of crude. It's not an either/or question, as some would argue.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. I am sorry for the way you were treated ThomWV.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
57. WOW, you're a genius!!
Here's where you said it would happen in February - WRONG

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2934371

Here's where you said it would happen in May - WRONG

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3256950

And these are the only two times I remember.

Maybe with your keen sense of the market, you should be in the business making millions!
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Ouch. Nice catch. n/t
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