First wedding I will decline to officiate. I'm still reeling after the call.

[Pacifist Patriot]

The conversation was going quite smoothly when the bride asked my race. I thought I misunderstood her at first, but she wanted to make sure I was white because this would be an issue with some of her relatives. Scrape my naive chin off the floor. I am way too used to people preferring a male member of the clergy preside at their wedding, but this is the first time I have encountered this. Ee gads! I think I'm going to be sick.

What the hell difference should race, gender, ethnicity, etc. make as to who solemnizes your union? I would think their beliefs about marriage and personality compatibility would be the most important issues. Sorry, but I cannot believe that someone who is not a racist would make accommodations to the few family members who are. Am I off base on this?

[EFerrari]

1. So creepy. You didn't need that gig. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. This is weird. As more time passes my body is actually starting to have a physical shaky reaction.

Creepy is a good word for it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. shake off the bad vibes she had hanging around her

I'll offer you a Lakota prayer of protection, if you think that would help.

[EFerrari]

9. I'm so sorry. And you know once you got there, it would only have gotten worse.

Good call, my friend.

[spanone]

24. it's amazing that an educated person would feel in anyway comfortable asking that question

assuming they're educated...it's frightening as hell

[DarthDem]

3. Good Choice

It was probably easier for her to accommodate the relatives than to contemplate ruining her wedding. However, you certainly don't need to be involved in that mess. Sound move.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. No, I don't think you are

I'm surprised the bride and groom even asked you, though, as I'm sure it is obvious you have liberal views.

[Pacifist Patriot]

10. I was surprised too because most people get my contact information from my website...

which is littered with pictures of me officiating weddings. And yes, my views are pretty darned obvious there too.

[Catch22Dem]

5. Bravo for you! I hope you don't find my question rude, but

What IS your race? I think it would be most fitting if you were white and refused to do the service AND let her know why.

[Pacifist Patriot]

15. Let's just say it was most fitting. *grin*

[Catch22Dem]

22. You're awesome!

If Mrs. C22Dem and I decide to renew, we'll call you!

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. Cool! That'd be my second DU union. ;-)

[cbayer]

6. I think you are right to decline.

I guess people have the right to choose who will marry them, and you have the right to decide who you will marry. I hope you are able to have a reasonable conversation with her about your reasons. She may be under the control of some of her relatives and understand your position.

[midnight]

7. No, you are not off base!

So much more work towards equality must be done.

[Ikonoklast]

11. Tell her 'Human'

People never cease to amaze me with their stupidity about skin color.

As if that's the most important thing about a person.

I just don't get it.

[krispos42]

16. That's the one

[knitter4democracy]

12. I don't think you are, but I can sorta understand her.

She knows which bigoted a******s are coming, and she doesn't want a scene, especially so as not to offend the officiant who might back out at the last minute.

Hubby and I wanted to convert to a different church before we got married but knew it would drive a huge wedge between us and our new priest and his family. We waited until we were married, and that made the ensuing aftermath easier.

[zanne]

78. I wanted my union with my husband to be sacred...

So I went to the Yellow Pages and we were married by a Justice of the Peace.

[Bettie]

82. We were married by a judge at the courthouse....

And we've been married 19 years now, so it seems to have worked out fine!

My MIL was SURE that because we were not married in a church, it wouldn't work out!

Or maybe it was wishful thinking on her part because she thought I was "corrupting" her baby boy. Luckily, he didn't need corrupting, he was already a liberal and had stopped going to their depressing church on his own!

[zanne]

83. Both our families were Catholic...

Strangely enough, though, I think they were a bit relieved that they wouldn't have to dish out any money! We've been married for 28 years.

[knitter4democracy]

88. Are we SILs?

She sounds just like my MIL.

[knitter4democracy]

87. Good idea!

Cheaper, nice, and just as married by the end! Honestly, I wush we'd eloped, ours became so crazy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. Easily 1/3 of weddings I officiate have 10 people or fewer. One of the things...

I advertise is specifically deesigned for people who would just as soon go to a justice of the peace but might want just a wee bit more. http://www.brevardminister.com/private_package.htm

The Independence Day weekend saw me with 5 weddings over 6 days. Not a single one was big enough to require a rehearsal and only one had more than 25 people in attendance. I adore small weddings! If I had my own to do over again it would be vastly different and a great deal more intimate.

[zanne]

95. And, for women who don't enjoy being the center of attention...

Fun and everybody has a good time. My wedding pictures were provided by a friend who just took pictures as we went along. We had a BBQ and pool party for our reception so the kids who attended had a good time, too.

[knitter4democracy]

96. Those sound perfect.

We just had SIL's wedding this summer. It was one of those big fairy-princess affairs--expensive for everyone, big, and super stressful. I really wish she'd gone small like that. It would've been so much nicer.

[grasswire]

13. the minister in my family got a call...

...from someone who had forgotten to buy their marriage license in time for the wedding and wanted her to lie about it and backdate it. Everything else was in place; flowers, food -- except they had no officiant and had no license. I told her to say sure, she would do it for five thousand bucks. She turned them down.

[MiniMe]

40. I would tell her that i would officiate, but I would not backdate papers

Asking a member of the ministry to lie is just plain wrong in so many ways.

[Pacifist Patriot]

46. My contract explicitly states that I cannot legally perform a valid marriage ceremony...

without a license. I tell the couple this at the consultation, I remind them a week before the wedding and then again at the rehearsal if there is one. I have a waiver in my binder at every wedding in case the license is left behind. I've never had to use it, but it says that the ceremony I am performing that day is symbolic only and will not result in the legal status of husband and wife. I will perform a brief legal ceremony for them at a mutually convenient time when they can produce the license for an additional $___.

I really emphasize strongly that the state legally ties my hands as to what I am even allowed to say during the declaration of marriage if I have not taken possession of a valid license ahead of time. I have had a wedding postponed thirty minutes while a bridesmaid ran back to the bride's house to grab the license off the microwave. And I've had a private elopement get postponed 24 hours because the license did not become valid until the day after they had scheduled to meet with me. Weird three day waiting period if you live in state, but it becomes valid immediately if you come in from out of state. What?

[grasswire]

55. yep -- this was a next-day call

Totally off the wall. Everything but the license and the officiant taken care of. Desperately looking for an officiant who will lie and do the ceremony.

[yardwork]

62. I hope they went forward with their wedding. It's exactly what gay people do all over the country.

Except in Massachusetts and California, every gay marriage in the country is exactly like theirs. All the celebration, none of the paperwork.

[Pacifist Patriot]

75. I've performed a number of symbolic commitment ceremonies for heterosexual couples...

who did not want the legal marriage. Like you say, all the celebration, none of the paperwork.

[LeftyMom]

14. Wow.

I would have asked her what year she was calling from, but that's why I look for jobs where I don't have to deal with the public much.

[morgan2]

17. If you had some racist relatives

would you want them ruining your wedding by complaining about the negro preacher all night?

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. I do have racist relatives. They didn't come to my wedding.

[onethatcares]

33. I had racist relatives and guess what?

prior to dying, he had his butt wiped by a black cna, was a roomie of a black man (that also had his share of hate), and had to deal with the end as it was dealt to him. I think he realized how farked up it was to think that way cause he was sharing his candy with his roomie before the end.

Isn't it about time to stop this shit? Many a good person has died defending our liberties, rights, and thoughts. To think less of a person due to skin color is just wrong.

[XOKCowboy]

42. PP a question...

You do know that you can have parents that are racist and still not be a racist? I'm from Oklahoma and I know lots of people that are in all other ways good people. They work hard honest jobs, stake their reputations on their word and handshake and are good responsible parents. The thing is their parents taught them what their parents taught them about racism. They're not KKK type racists, it's just their thought process. My dad had those kind of parents and in Oklahoma in the 60's he wouldn't have been alone if he'd been a racist but it didn't catch with him. He treated everyone equally and even took some flak for bringing his black co-workers up to the ranch to go fishing. It didn't faze him and from him I learned the same lesson. What's interesting is that both of my brothers still will say things that make me cringe.


My point is sir that sometimes if you want to have any relatives come to your wedding (and to keep peace in the family) a bride might have to invite people who's views she doesn't share.

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. Indeed I do. My grandparents were racist and my parents are most decidedly not.

I can certainly understand a bride having to invite people whose views she does not share. I am a liberal UU Democrat from a family with a number of conservative Christian Republican leaves on the tree. Needless to say some of my invitations went to people who do not share my perspective on life. But I cannot fathom hiring my wedding vendors based upon my grandparent's or aunt's and uncle's criteria. It just wouldn't occur to me.

Edit: Psst, I'm a ma'am, not a sir.

[XOKCowboy]

47. OOoops!

Well I guess I missed the racism but might have gotten just a touch of sexism (which I fight every day!!)

[EFerrari]

20. If I had racist relatives, they wouldn't ruin my wedding by being invited. n/t

[deadmessengers]

39. My wife and I had that problem

She's African American, I'm not, and both of us have more than our share of relatives that would have ruined the day had they gotten liquored up and said what was undoubtedly on their minds in a room full of people of another race. The answer for us was a quiet breakfast together followed by a trip to the local courthouse, by ourselves. In the end, we saved ourselves a pantload of money and a ton of stress, and neither of us would change a damn thing.

[barbtries]

72. my racist relatives

would have too much class hopefully, and if they didn't i don't think i'd have a problem telling them where to get off. "why should that bother you?" is a good question which in this context has no good answer.

[TheCowsCameHome]

19. Maybe you can negotiate a settlement in their divorce instead

Sounds like this litle honey is in for a life of trouble...........

[rzemanfl]

32. I handled the divorces of several people whose weddings I had

performed. They felt it was some sort of poetic justice. I don't do either anymore and life is simpler.

[Warpy]

21. Excellent choice

That sort of thing makes me sick, too. Nurses had to take all comers, but by the end of a shift with a rabid racist or homophobe, I'd be totally drained and depressed for the next couple of days. If you can avoid them, by all means do so. It's just not worth it.

The bride can't fix her family, that's not her job. However, since her family would likely object to a lot more than the melanin content of a minister's skin, perhaps you should have suggested elopement.

[Somawas]

25. Yes, you are.

"Sorry, but I cannot believe that someone who is not a racist would make accommodations to the few family members who are. Am I off base on this?"

I agree that you don't need the gig. On the other hand, I can easily imagine that someone who is not a racist would decide to accomodate a few racist family members. It's their day. They don't need the family embarrassments making a scene. No need for it. You're off base about that. Though I can understand your desire to have no part of it.

[EFerrari]

26. So what would you call someone who accomodates racists?

Thoughtful? Good planners?

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. That's where I am coming from.

I have racist relatives and I have never accommodated their "sensibilities." Just can't enable hatred.

[EFerrari]

44. It wouldn't be good for them, in the first place.

It's like asking someone to shoot you up with heroin. Friends don't ask friends to enable their hatred.

[Oeditpus Rex]

51. Enablers

[Donald Ian Rankin]

53. Unfortunate.

We can't choose our relatives, and even if you feel that anyone who is a racist is automatically someone you don't mind alienating (which I don't agree with), sometimes you can't alienate the ones you don't like without alienating others too.

[EFerrari]

92. I can't speak for anyone else but I've had to negotiate a situation

with a bigoted family member in a tightly knit family. It's not easy, that's very true.

And at bottom, there's no need for unpleasantness or anger. I just don't cooperate in any way that that person and the rest of the family has learned, finally, that my quiet protest is an act of love and they have learned to respect that. No recriminations, no drama, just other arrangements. We get on. Whether I could have managed that at 20 is another matter.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. I'd call that person naive, insecure,immature, etc.

If you know that gramps would make a scene and the rest of the relatives would give you flak for not inviting him, it may seem like the path of least resistance. Of course there are better ways to deal with it, and someone who is secure in self would find one.

I like deadmessengers's way of handling it -- don't plan an event that gives them the opportunity to act out.

[Somawas]

93. Pragmatic.

If I had to come up with a name at all. I don't think I do.

[yardwork]

63. I disagree. I think that that approach simply enables people.

If I had racist relatives I knew would make a scene I simply would not invite them. If I had to invite them - if they were my parents, for instance - I'd let them go ahead and make fools of themselves before I would make a fool of myself by screening officiants by ethnicity or anything else.

[Vinca]

27. You should have asked if her relatives were good Christian racists.

Who would Jesus hate?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. I wouldn't do it either. nt

[bobbolink]

30. And she thinks God is interested in perpetuating her biases???

What Sunday School did she attend?

Geeeeez, so sorry you got this call.... AND... while I hope you are feeling better now, I appreciate that it did bother you... it's so nice to know there are clergy who are sensitive enough to be upset with this kind of crap.



Bless you!

[asdjrocky]

31. I was a wedding professional for more than 10 years.

I've turned down more than a little business. Being a DJ, I didn't run into quite the same concerns as perhaps you do, but I have heard on a few occasions that they want none of "that ------ music played." That was always my cue to end the call.

However, when I've been face to face in that situation, I try to explain to them that without all of the races music would not be what it is today. Sometimes it has worked.

[Chovexani]

36. Good for you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

37. Wow, just wow.

[asdjrocky]

41. Yeah, and here I am, in blue Ca.

One thing that is good to know, it was always the older people who had objections, if any. The kids are all right.

[Mopar151]

66. D'oh!

How, i ask you, can you DJ a wedding without (the Isley Brother's?) "Shout!"? Huh? No "Macarenea"? No Kool and the Gang?
NO JAMES BROWN? HUH!

[asdjrocky]

79. No kidding....

But believe me man, it's been tried.

[TheCowsCameHome]

34. White pointy hoods don't go well with traditional wedding attire, anyway.

Best to decline and move on...........

[TechBear_Seattle]

35. I wouldn't have done it

I had a business a few years ago as a Humanist celebrant, specializing in non-religious weddings and other ceremonies. If I had ever gotten a question like that, I would have declined their business as professionally as I could manage.

[XOKCowboy]

38. OK I can understand a bride not wanting her racist father ruining her wedding....

Brides take this stuff seriously. She sounds like she's had many instances of bigoted relatives causing scenes in the past and didn't want that to happen on her wedding day. Just because she wants to keep the peace at her wedding doesn't necessarily mean that SHE is a racist.

It doesn't mean that she isn't either. It also serves as a reminder that there is still virulent racism in America.

[EFerrari]

43. So, you know a racist is funding your wedding and you do what?

Appease them because you want the party? Why bother getting married if you're going to sell it?

I must be getting too old to think straight in my head. We need a DU Crochety Intervention that I can use to disable my keyboard. lol

[Mutley]

52. To each his/her own

but personally, I'd tell my father to behave himself or stay home.

[Mutley]

48. I most certainly would not make accomodations to those members of my family.

They can either keep their negative opinions to themselves or stay the hell away from my wedding. Up to them.

[BlooInBloo]

49. Suprised white person #4657435236475....

You would think after SOME number we would stop being "surprised".

[Number23]

76. ha!

You would think after SOME number we would stop being "surprised".

You absolutely CRACK ME UP.

[FourScore]

50. It is shocking when you run into such blatant racism.

Somethimes, I think I live in such a bubble of liberalism. My town is extremely liberal. Whenever I travel outside this area, I am always slapped back into reality. People can be so ignorant.

[latebloomer]

54. Even Jenna Bush

had a black minister at her wedding!

[Edweird]

56. Principles are important.

Don't second guess yourself.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

57. You should have told them about the gay wedding you officiated.

[Pacifist Patriot]

59. That would be probably okay with them....

the brides were both white.

[LeftyMom]

67. But their tattoos were showing!

I'm still cracking up at that.

For those who haven't heard the story- at the end of the wedding, PP, teh bridezillas and the ringbearer (mechabridzilla's adorable but unfortunately slightly underage cousin) are doing the recessional. Just before everybody stands up to go get liquored up at the reception, the old lady near me leans over to her husband and in this scandalized tone "did you notice that both of them have tattoos showing?!?" I wanted to turn and whisper "oh my god, did you realize they're both women!?!" but I restrained myself.

I guess that's progress- nobody batts an eye at two women getting married, but ZOMG! several square inches of subcutaneous ink between them!

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. LOL! I'd forgotten that.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. Good for you!

You're my kind of DUer.

[rebel with a cause]

61. My father was a very strict Baptist minister

and he refused to marry anyone who had another living spouse, even some relatives were told that he could not do so. But he was also open to marrying people in our house who had no money for a ceremony. One day a couple called us and asked for him to officiate in their ceremony. My mother had recently died and he had me handle the business part of it. I asked them all the right questions, including whether either of them had been married before. They said no, and I went on to tell them that he had a strict rule that he would not marry anyone that was divorced. The couple showed up, and we were shocked by their appearance but continued on with the ceremony. When it was finished, my father had me fill out the license. When it came to the part about number of previous marriages, I was shocked when the twenty-three year old bride informed me that there had been three previous marriages. I confronted her on it and then looked at my father. His face had turned dark red but he just nodded at me, letting me know to finish the paper work so we could get them out of the house. When they were gone, I defended myself by insisting they had lied to me, and my father told me that he knew they had, but he would never marry anyone he did not know in our house again because he felt he had placed me and my younger brothers in danger by allowing this couple in our home.

I disagreed with my father on many things, and not marrying people with living spouses was one of them, but I found these people so disrespectful that it left a bad taste in my mouth that they had ever been allowed in our house. Within a year we read in the paper that the bride had killed another woman in a bar fight and in less than two years we read that the groom had been caught rustling cattle. The last I read about them was shortly after that and forty years ago. Both of them were in prison and divorced from each other.

[yardwork]

64. That's an interesting story! What was shocking about their appearances?

[rebel with a cause]

68. This was in the mid sixties and in a small town.

We were a religious family and led a pretty sheltered life. The couple was from a very different background. When I speak of their appearance I speak of not only the way they looked but also of their actions. They looked what we called "rough", but it was more than that. There was something about them that just made you shudder with a cold chill running down your spine.

Okay, I will try to explain what the word "rough" meant to us particularly in reference to this couple. They looked like those who hung in bars/taverns most of the time. They were clean, but their appearance was haggard and they looked older than what they were and hard. Her makeup would have been harsh and their clothing for a wedding was not what we would have expected from a small town couple. I am unsure of exactly what they wore, but it was probably more like what someone would wear to a bar than to a minister's home for a wedding ceremony. A man of my father's generation would find this very disrespectful to him and his position.

I cannot say we were nonjudgmental, but we never treated anyone different because of their appearance or lifestyle. She laughed all through the ceremony and was very disrespectful. They treated us like the naive hicks we were, and I was put off by them. I stayed courteous to the end, and treated them the way I would want to be treated.

Truthfully, I have been friends with those who were considered "rough" by others during much of my life, although I have always led a pretty "un-rough" life myself. The difference with this couple was their disrespectful actions and the fact that their evilness showed through. She killed with a coldness that shocked the people in our area. And he was caught going in darkness to farms, killing cows and butchering them in the back of his vehicle. Other animals had also been killed and butchered by him before he was captured.

[yardwork]

91. I can see why it was upsetting to your family. Would have been to me, too.

They sound like very scary people. Murderers and thieves.

[OmahaBlueDog]

65. Actually, something happened like this in my family, but it ended well

Mrs. OBD's Mom's family is pretty traditional Irish Catholic. When my SIL went to get married 20 years ago, she was in tears because Father James, the priest assigned to the service, was Indian (as in Bollywood, not as in Sioux) -- and with a thick accent. Suffice to say if was not the story book image of her dream day, and he was nothig like the priests the family had known for years. However, short of switching parishes (not practical), there was nothing to be done. One aspect of the Catholic Church -- even then -- was that the bride & groom to-be go to classes before the wedding; you end up meeting with the priest many times. After getting to know Father James, they came to conclude he wasn't a bad guy, and he performed a beautiful ceremony.

[fortyfeetunder]

69. I recalled one wedding

where the minister in his sermon called out on some of the relatives for their racism. WOW!

Good for you Pacifist Patriot!

[Missy Vixen]

70. PP, you're doing the right thing

The bride and groom are free to look elsewhere for an officiant. Perhaps they'd like to be married by the justice of the peace.

This may be OT, but I was a bridesmaid in a friend's wedding 20 years ago, during which the priest would not serve Communion unless I was seated elsewhere in the church. Despite being baptized a Catholic shortly after birth, "non-Catholics" were not allowed on the platform, even as observers.

Julie

[barbtries]

71. i think you're exactly right

and applaud your decision. whenever asked my race, i always respond with "human." if that's not an option, i put "other." it should not be an issue.

[ms liberty]

73. Not at all. I'd make my bigoted relatives squirm or uninvite them. n/t

[RedShoes]

77. This is the FIRST* wedding you've declined to officiate, but

"I am way too used to people preferring a male member of the clergy preside at their wedding..."

and you've never declined based on sex. (???) But declining based on race is ok. (???)

I think you have shown one of the disconnects that exist right now in America. Sexism? Way too used to it. Racism? No way. Why not treat both with equal parity?

[Pacifist Patriot]

81. My gender is more obvious than my race. I'll explain.

When couples are seeking an independent officiant they can use wedding planning sites that work in a couple of different ways.

Some collect minimal information about the event then send leads via email to officiants in the geographic area to follow up on their own. So the couple has no clue who is going to contact them.

Some allow the couple to browse through a list of officiants in the area and decide whom they would like to contact. My name is obviously female so anyone preferring a male wouldn't bother to select me as a possible candidate.

The reason I know so many people have a preference for male clergy is because of one lead generating site that allows the couple to indicate if they have a gender preference. I saw a number of leads come through specifying males (never specifying female by the way) should respond to the lead. Obviously, I did not remain listed at that site for very long.

My name and face are obviously female so anyone finding me directly through my own website who prefers a male minister would not bother to contact me.

Thus, I've never been placed in the position to decline due to gender preference. Unless you want to count responding, "Not Interested" to the leads requesting a male respond. Since I never spoke to the bride and groom I don't consider that declining a request to officiate a wedding. I did, however, contact the lead site and let them know I thought that particular screening question was inappropriate. No response of course.

[Blue_Tires]

80. wow....was she related to Jesse Helms?

[ThomCat]

84. Wow. Good for you!

I hope they can't find anyone who will accomodate their racism. That truly is disgusting that they'd go out of their way to accomodate that kind of bigotry in their family. What kind of lesson is that for the kids in their family?

[BlueIris]

85. Holy shit.

Good for you for refusing to validate their sick prejudices.

[mopinko]

86. brides are nuts.

anyone having a giant, expensive wedding, who does not have bushels of cash just waiting around to be spent, imho, is a little nuts. some are a lot nuts.
my sister is a photographer, and for years had to put up with brides every freaking saturday. i do not know how she did it. i couldn't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. See. Twenty years later, nothing has changed.

It happened to me too. Except, they just asked that their white sons not be paired with a bridesmaid that was of dark persuasion.

[Beacool]

90. That's a shame!!!

I attend a Lutheran church and both our current pastors happen to be women, one is white and the other one is black. Both are great ladies and we are lucky to have them. I can't imagine anyone objecting to either one marrying them.

Sick world.....

[Mad_Dem_X]

97. No, you are not off base.

If the race of the officiant was of concern to members of my family, those people would not be invited to my wedding.