Gordon Brown announces new anti-knife measures after 20th London teenager dies

[Mugu]

Philippe Naughton, Adam Fresco and Nico Hines, timesonline.co.uk

Gordon Brown declared tonight that new anti-knife crime measures will be announced next week after four men were stabbed to death in separate attacks across London in just 24 hours.

The Prime Minister said the latest spate of murders was “shocking and tragic” a few hours after the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police issued a rare appeal for calm in the capital.

Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, will set out the Government’s latest initiative on Monday. Later in the week, the first ever cross-government youth crime plan will be published with new enforcement and sentencing measures. It will also include a new approach to youth crime prevention, including “tough parenting” programmes.

Mr Brown said this evening: “The terrible stabbings that have occurred this week are shocking and tragic, and my thoughts are with the families and friends of those who have been hurt or killed in these attacks.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4318462.ece">Complete article

[Zynx]

1. I'm going to love to see how they enforce this one.

[Bluebear]

2. Is there a NKA (National Knife Association) that will start whining about "knife-grabbers"?

[Political Heretic]

3. Knives don't kill people....... eh you know the rest.

[Hugabear]

6. LOL, I was just about to make a NKA reply

Something along the lines of taking my knife from my cold dead fingers. Or how every person should be armed with a 9" hunting knife.

[jdadd]

4. From my cold dead hands.......

[anonymous171]

5. The gun nuts' worst fears have been confirmed

After they take away your fire arms, they actually will take away your knives.

[Hugabear]

7. So what exactly are these "anti-knife" measures?

I didn't really read anything specifically about "anti-knife" measures. Just some vague talk about trying to get knives off the streets, tougher sentencing, youth crime prevention programs, and "tough parenting" programs.

[spin]

18. Current British knife laws:

To view the current laws:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975

For a discussion visit the British knife forum at these links. At a minimum it's informative and the use of the King"s English make it entertaining.

FAQ:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8336

Ask a cop
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2011

Overall, the current laws are extremely restrictive, perhaps even draconian. It's hard to imagine what the new laws will be like.

A pocket knife with a blade over three inches is illegal to carry and the blade better not lock in place when open.

You can carry a knife if you have a good reason, for instance you are a chief going to or from your residence. But as I understand the law you best not stop anywhere on your way home.

I'm definitely glad that I don't live in the U.K. Not only could I no longer own and carry firearms, I would also be unable to carry the two knives I have with me right now. A folding pocket knife with a 4" fully serrated blade that locks and a 4" fixed blade with a plain edge.

[krispos42]

8. But... but... gun deaths are at record lows!

And we all know GUNS are the source of all evil and violence in the world. They make killing so simple and easy that there is NO DOUBT that banning them will reduce the crime and homicide deaths!!!





Unless, of course, you actually think about it and realize that banning guns affects the homicide rate like banning red-painted cars affects the vehicular death rate.


<sigh>

[varkam]

9. Well...

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it is worthwhile to note that the homicide rate in the UK for 2005 and 2006 was roughly five times lower (per capita) than the homicide rate in the united states: 1.4 per 100k versus 5.5 per 100k. Also, the majority of homicides in the United States were perpetrated via firearms.

[krispos42]

10. Oh, I know

I made this handy graph after fighting with an anti-gun person over the UK vs. US rates.



Over the past 40 years, the UK rate has crept up steadily until it has about doubled, whereas our rate is down roughly 40% from 15 years ago.

[varkam]

11. I do not think that something so complex as...

rates of violent crime can be boiled down to just something as simple as the availability of firearms. I have to think that there are many other factors involved, such as education, poverty rates, and so on and so forth.

Re: the drop in US crime - I once read a very interesting argument that the legalization of abortion in the 1970's was responsible for the drop in the US crime rate in the 1990's. Things such as tougher sentencing or increased policing only accounted for a very small percentage of the statistical variation.

Personally, I think that the gun issue is largely a red herring - but I do think that there are important points to be made along the lines of registration and regulation. I don't think that guns cause or incite crime, but they certainly do make it easier.

[krispos42]

12. Of course not

Yet that is the cry that is splashed across the TV screen. Banning handguns, registration, etc.

For example, in Philidelphia recently a cop was shot and killed with an SKS rifle, a rifle that is not and has never been called an "assault weapon". However the mayor of Philly immediately began thundering from the pulpit about how the Pennsylvania legislature wouldn't regulate "assault weapons" or allow Philly to do so. The fact that the shooter was a career violent criminal who was paroled early from a pled-down sentence is somehow neither important nor relevent.

:shrug:

I've stated before that by simply sticking to our core, traditional liberal values and getting things done like: quality primary and secondary public education. strenghing unions, rebuilding the single-income middle class, legalizing recreational drugs, a progressive income tax, breaking up monopolines, and univeral single-payer health care, our crime and homicide rates would fall dramatically and permenately! And faster than trying to take enough hardware out of the hands of honest citizens so that at some point it gets hard for criminals to get them.

I don't think that guns cause or incite crime, but they certainly do make it easier.

About 20% of crime is done with guns, so at best you're going to cut crime by a small fractions. Eventually.

Actually, our crime rates are univerally at the lowest rates in a generation or two. Pick a crime: rape, assault, burglary, robbery, murder, domestic abuse, car theft, etc. All dramatically lower than 15-20 years ago, in many cases 1/2 to 2/3rds lower.

And I'd point out that guns also make self-defense easier. "God made Man. Colonel Colt made them equal" and all that.

[varkam]

13. Hmm...

I've stated before that by simply sticking to our core, traditional liberal values and getting things done like: quality primary and secondary public education. strenghing unions, rebuilding the single-income middle class, legalizing recreational drugs, a progressive income tax, breaking up monopolines, and univeral single-payer health care, our crime and homicide rates would fall dramatically and permenately! And faster than trying to take enough hardware out of the hands of honest citizens so that at some point it gets hard for criminals to get them.


I'm not sure about most of that, but I do agree with you on the education and drugs issue - I think that the black market drug trade drives a lot of violence which could be stemmed through legalization and heavy regulation.

About 20% of crime is done with guns, so at best you're going to cut crime by a small fractions. Eventually.

Is that 20% of crime, or 20% of violent crime?

Actually, our crime rates are univerally at the lowest rates in a generation or two. Pick a crime: rape, assault, burglary, robbery, murder, domestic abuse, car theft, etc. All dramatically lower than 15-20 years ago, in many cases 1/2 to 2/3rds lower.

Right, and it was hypothesized that this decrease in crime was the result of legalization of abortion, given that most criminals start committing crimes when they are 16-18 or so.

And I'd point out that guns also make self-defense easier. "God made Man. Colonel Colt made them equal" and all that.

True, but I think that it is irrelevant to the point of the fact that guns do make the commission of crimes easier easier. While it may be that guns make self-defense easier, that is not exactly applicable in situations where the perpetrator has a gun and the victim does not. Also, IIRC, the majority of guns are never used for self-defense.

[krispos42]

14. Well...

Breaking up monopolies, the progressive income tax, etc., enables the single-income middle class. With financial security, families are stronger and more stable. Fewer divorces, more loving. Also, by being single income, one parent can stay home and be a professional homemaker, keeping an eye on the kids and keeping them out of trouble, love, attention, etc. Which results in better-behaved, better-raised, better-adjusted kids. Kids that, combined with better education, go out into the world as happy, productive citizens.

Is that 20% of crime, or 20% of violent crime?

That would be with violent crime. My bad. Things like robbery.

Right, and it was hypothesized that this decrease in crime was the result of legalization of abortion, given that most criminals start committing crimes when they are 16-18 or so.

I can see that. Economic and social conditions play a large part in determining odds of a person being sucked into a life of crime. If the people that live in those conditions have the option of abortion, fewer children will be born into those situations and thus fewer will become criminals in absolute numbers.

True, but I think that it is irrelevant to the point of the fact that guns do make the commission of crimes easier easier. While it may be that guns make self-defense easier, that is not exactly applicable in situations where the perpetrator has a gun and the victim does not. Also, IIRC, the majority of guns are never used for self-defense.

There is that potential. Cars also make escape from a crime easier. However, only those criminal at heart will take advanate of that potential in the first place. The UK did not experience any sort of reduction in armed robbery, for example, in the years after handguns were outlawed and confiscated. Australia's assault rate continues to climb steadily even after guns were clamped down on about a decade ago.

And I'll point out that the majority of guns are never used for criminal purposes. Studies show that guns are used defensively about 1.3 million times a year, the vast majority of times without a shot being fired.

[varkam]

16. .

Breaking up monopolies, the progressive income tax, etc., enables the single-income middle class. With financial security, families are stronger and more stable. Fewer divorces, more loving. Also, by being single income, one parent can stay home and be a professional homemaker, keeping an eye on the kids and keeping them out of trouble, love, attention, etc. Which results in better-behaved, better-raised, better-adjusted kids. Kids that, combined with better education, go out into the world as happy, productive citizens.

Those are some mighty large assumptions that you're making. For example, there is not guarantee that a progressive income tax = fewer divorces = one parent can stay home = keep kids out of trouble = less crime. For each of those "=" signs, there are at least a few big assumptions that you have to make in order to reach the conclusion. I mean, intuitively it makes sense, but I'm afraid that it might not translate that way in the real world.

I can see that. Economic and social conditions play a large part in determining odds of a person being sucked into a life of crime. If the people that live in those conditions have the option of abortion, fewer children will be born into those situations and thus fewer will become criminals in absolute numbers.

Exactly. It's kind of a morbid calculus, but it does make sense.

There is that potential. Cars also make escape from a crime easier. However, only those criminal at heart will take advanate of that potential in the first place. The UK did not experience any sort of reduction in armed robbery, for example, in the years after handguns were outlawed and confiscated. Australia's assault rate continues to climb steadily even after guns were clamped down on about a decade ago.


That's an interesting analogy, and as much as I wish I could refute it immediately, I cannot. I'll have to think about it :evilgrin: I do not think, though, that "only those criminal at heart" will use firearms for nefarious means. I think that is a simplistic view of criminality. For example, fully half of all violent crime involves someone being blitzed. A lot of times, people make a stupid mistake - not that they are necessarily bad people, but rather they do stupid things in a fit of rage or drunkenness. That is not to say that those "criminal at heart" do not exist - but merely that there are many different flavors of criminal.

I do not think, nor have I ever thought, that an outright ban is the way to go. I think that there are a lot of emotions tied up in this debate, that I think get in the way of finding a real sort of solution.

[conspirator]

15. Will I need a license for a cooking knife? n/t

[spin]

19. You might if British doctors have their way...

A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.


None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871

[soothsayer]

17. Didn't they already take away swords, like Australia did?

The UK is quickly becoming a creepy Orwellian place, covered in spy cameras and systematically taking weapons away from its citizens.