A Good Day to say "Goodbye".

[Oregone]

Today, with the passing of the FISA bill, will also serve as the anniversary of the last night that I sleep in my own home, shop in my small hometown, and watch our all-American programming. As is stands, our car is packed and our hopes are high, for tomorrow we depart on the last, and most important, leg of a 5 year journey of emigration. Tomorrow, we seek out a promise of upward mobility in a statistical meritocracy, which also means, we are pursuing the “American Dream”. Like those that came before us to found this country, we are only taking what we can carry with us, and our hopes and dreams—with luck, this will be enough.

When I first considered leaving the United States, it was based upon the premise that our social condition is controlled by a self-sustaining process of greed and poverty, supported by a social order that ensures that each generation, averaged over a long period of time, will be as consistently deprived as the rest. In other words, the conditions of this society ensure posterity will not be much different from the last, and the laws will ensure that nothing will be able to change or stop the cycle. When the structure doesn’t allow change, poverty becomes a perpetual cycle, as does wealth (but small cyclic changes are always observed). The bottom line was, ‘change’ was nothing more than a mere word, and nothing short of a revolution was going to make a difference.

Perhaps I am merely reactionary to the last 8 years of this absurd political experience, which subsequently corresponds to 8 years since I became politically aware. I’ve often thought, ‘perhaps I am wrong?’. Perhaps we really will not go to war? Perhaps the American people are smart enough to choose a leader who isn’t bent on destroying the constitution? Perhaps things really can change around here? I’ve tried to put my dogmatic thinking away, and ask honest questions with the assumption that I could be wrong. But time and time again, my assumptions on the goodwill of the country, the intelligence of Americans, and our ability to change the process have been proven correct (and this memorable day is another display of this concept). My entire lack of faith in this country, its people, and its process has been upheld countless times, to such an extent, I’ve probably blocked out most of these travesties with the hope of leaving those memories behind.

So now, I look ahead.

I look forward to a life where I do not have to listen to war anthems at the start of every high school sports game, nor witness patriotic firework celebrations that evoke images of “Shock and Awe”, or rather, the deaths of innocents. I look forward to turning on a news network that covers more than what celebrity received a DUI, and considers the strange possibility that there is more than a single country in this world. I look forward to living in a society that seems to care about their citizens. Without a doubt, I look forward to having Universal Health Care in 3 months from now.

And to be clear to those certain to look upon our decision with disdain, this isn’t my fight. I was merely born in an area controlled by this regime. It is no more my fight, than the Iraq War is the fight of a small Iraqi child hit by a stray bomb. And this sure as hell isn’t my own child’s fight, being that I find myself in no position to enroll her in this perpetually losing struggle. If it makes you feel good to suffer and struggle against this government entity, that is your business and yours alone, for not all of us dream of a life of political martyrdom.

Without a doubt, I do have good memories, and have met many wonderful people. I wish only the best for everyone I have known and this country as a whole (I do hope you prove me wrong). And for those of you who may find you have something in common with me, and the means to do so, pursue your dream with vigor. Life is so short and precious, so much so, that you shouldn’t let yourself be part of a machine or torn up by one.

Live your life and chase your dreams, ensure the safety of your family and loved ones, and let your heart guide you to better pastures. Of course, you will never know how green that grass is until you stand there, and sometimes you will never know how brown your own is until you stand elsewhere. Wherever you stand, stand for yourself and your family.

[Individualist]

1. Goodbye and good luck!

I envy you.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Oh my Lord. You've got to be kidding.

[Oregone]

9. No

This is a well-thought out decision in a process that was started, legally, 5 years ago. We spent years prior to that, as well as after, evaluating this and pursuing this. It is coincidental that we leave at the time of any other event, being that we have only had our VISAs for so long, and we have planned for some time to leave tomorrow. This is not a reaction to a single event, but in someway a reaction to a series paired with an understanding of our social order.

[neuvocat]

111. The straw and camel's back.

Well I wish you all the best.

[shadowknows69]

3. Well, thanks for ditching us in our darkest hour

Sleep well.

[Truth4Justice]

59. So you would blame a Jew for leaving Nazi Germany?

I would be out of this police state in a heartbeat if I could.

[aspergris]

125. lol Godwin on redi-grow... n/t

[DailyGrind51]

4. Hey, if wasn't 57 and had paid off a home in the last few years,

I would be joining you! Good luck!

[underpants]

5. What a wonderfully well written and thoughtful post

:hi:

[bdamomma]

67. I thought so too.

you do what you feel is right.

[exothermic]

6. If I were 20 years younger and in better health, I'd be hitching a ride with you.

...

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elocs]

7. Just when I think I have seen the ultimate in drama and hyperbole, I'm wrong again.

Everybody may as well leave since the Constitution has evidently been destroyed. Our democratic Republic is over. Why even bother to have elections next November? Will the last one out please turn out the lights--let's at least try to be green until the end.

[aspergris]

60. Ironic considering Searcha and Seizure

Even GIVEN the latest FISA thang, most people don't realize that US Law Enforcement has MUCH more restrictive search and seizure than many other countries that they would want to live.

England for example doesn't have an exclusionary rule, has much more surveillance, and there is no "right to remain silent". It can be used against you.

And I won't even get into france's non-adversarial system

[Prophet 451]

108. We DO have a right to remain silent

The version used now in this country is "You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court".

Translation from legalese: You don't have to say one word if you don't want to BUT if you later rely on something that proves your innocence (an alibi, say), the judge and jury have the right to consider why you didn't mention that during your initial questioning. So, you DO still have the right to remain silent and, since any jury would ask themselves why you hadn't mentioned an alibi (or whatever) before, it's really just a rephrasing.

Surveillance is fair comment, we do have much more surveillence on average but it's not evenly distributed. Some cities have loads (for example, Torbay, my hometown, has a CCTV camera on virtually every corner), some have very little (the industrial wasteland I currently live in, for example).

No, we don't have an "exclusionary rule" (I had to look that up) but the PACE Act (Police & Criminal Evidence) acts in much the same way, laying out how evidence can be gathered (although, obviously, the actual provisions are different). An interesting difference is that here, since we don't have a codified constitution (contrary to popular belief, we DO have a constitution but it's uncodified which means it's scattered across numerous documents in several languages), much of the law pertaining to police procedure has been made by precedent rather than statute.

[Pacifist Patriot]

110. My husband is in the midst of a huge project with an English firm...

I keep begging him to switch to their company and relocate us to England, especially if McCain manages to steal a win. But I was already a huge anglophile. I love the midlands and could easily call it home. I haven't started my day until I've logged on to BBC.

[aspergris]

124. Great

But as I said, criminal suspects (and let's remember - being a suspect doesn't mean you are guilty) have less rights in england.

No right to remain silent (it can be used against you).

No exclusionary rule.

Note that Canada recently adopted an exclusionary rule of sorts. England has not

[Prophet 451]

137. I actually live in the Midlands

I live in Stoke-On-Trent which is an industrial wasteland these days. Used to be very nice, apparently, but then the bottom dropped out of the pottery industry in the late-fifties, the local economy crashed and it's just been holding on ever since. That said, Coventry, where I was born and my grandparents still live, is a lovely place.

[Pacifist Patriot]

147. I stopped (briefly) in Coventry last October.

Just long enough to get off the train from London and be picked up by a friend who took me out to Warwick and Fenny Drayton. In September I'm going to be in Birmingham for a week which means I am going to spend a day in the Cotswolds, a day in Hereford and Worcester, a day in Shrewsbury.... I cannot wait!!!

[aspergris]

123. correct -my point stand

That's my point. Our right is greater

If you are questioned or arrested in the US and you choose to say nothing, that CANNOT be used against you. It cannot even be mentioned to the jury.

That is not in true in England.

So, my point is true.

The PACE act does NOT mandate that evidence MUST be suppressed if recovered outside the bounds. In the US it will.

Again, we have MORE rights in both these regards.

I appreciate your research, which validates what I was saying.

Criminal suspects in the US even GIVEN FISA et al have MORE rights here in most respects than many european countries.

The point stands. There is a LOT more stuff I could bring up vis a vis british case law. THis was just two obvious examples.

The right to remain silent is a BIG ONE. *if* your refusal to answer questions CAN be used against you, then that is a huge difference.

[Prophet 451]

136. In this area, sure

I studied law in university so this stuff is meat and drink to me and you're right: In the area of criminal procedure, suspects have more rights in the USA. There are certain groups, such as Charter 88 (full disclosure: I am a member of Charter 88) who are pressuring for a full codification of the British Constitution. We don't have a Bill of Rights as such (although it's open to question if the US does anymore) but the EU Human Rights Act fulfills much the same purpose. We're also pressuring for a UK Supreme Court.

One caveat: Some Americans seem to have got the impression that we also have indefinate detention here, that isn't the case. Any suspect can be held for 3 days without charge which can be extended to seven days by a judge. In theory, terrorism suspects can be held up to 42 days but it must be reviewed and approved by a judge at 15 days and 30 days and after 42 days, they must be either charged or released.

[aspergris]

145. that's roughly similar to here...

In criminal jurisprudence, you can be held for 72 hours on an "investigation" arrest - iow w/o formal charges.

One can be arrested for "investigation of assault" for instance following an assault based on probable cause.

The cops/prosecutors have 72 hrs to formally charge (either via information or indictment) or you must be released.

Terrorism "suspects" are of course a little different, and that's where the controversy occurs. If it's considerered a war thang, and not a crime thang, then various civil rights that apply to criminal trials don't apply. That's ALWAYS been true - in England and the US. the issue with Bushco is the EXTENSION of stuff that doesn't apply vs. the conventional POW rights (which are broader than e.g. Gitmo) and what is recognized under the Geneva convention.

If one is a terrorism suspect, at least in a de facto sense, in the UK you would have more rights since as you say you would have to be released after 42 days w/o charging, whereas people have been held many times longer at Gitmo etc.

[baby_mouse]

115. Yeah, but they only use it on criminals. NT

[Two Americas]

69. you may disagree with people

But why on earth would you mock and ridicule them?

Maybe that is the greatest damage the right wingers have done to us - made us into mean-spirited bullies like they are and coarsened us and hardened our hearts to each other. Very sad.

[Lilith Velkor]

81. Makes me totally jealous of the OP

but I'm also glad for him.

As a poor person living in the DC area, I get a front row seat. :nuke:

[Oregone]

86. Thanks for being glad for me...

I wish everyone who wanted to could do it easily enough. Fortunately, Im lucky in my circumstances. But you should most certainly look into it if you have a desire...some countries are very easy to immigrate to. The challenge is committing to leaving, actually.

[Lilith Velkor]

87. Even for a disabled person with no money?

I find that hard to believe.

[Oregone]

99. It would seem everyone has their unique circumstances,

and I wasn't aware of yours, which would be very challenging indeed (I assume). As I said, Ive been just lucky in my own right. Im saddened for you to be subject to any confinements that would keep you from pursuing a dream like this. For people like you and other, I can only hope that the society and country I leave has the ability to make a dramatic change, because as you point out, some people just don't have the option.

[Lilith Velkor]

106. I wish you well, dude

If it came down to it, I suppose I could emigrate illegally, like many other poor folk.

[bobbolink]

128. I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and would like to ask you a question....

As a person in the same situation as the one to whom you replied, I'm always amazed that it seems to come as a surprise to people that we DO exist.

Could you enlighten me as to why we are so easy to overlook? I'm very serious... I see this a lot, and I'd really like to know what it comes as a surprise that there are many people like us who DON'T HAVE Options.

I realize, also, that there may be many reasons... but, I'd like to start here, and if you would, share how this can be.

Thank you in advance.

[Oregone]

134. You are correct that such a demographic wasn't my first thought...

This is the internet, where anyone has an option to be anonymous--and thus, no one on the other end is going to know exactly who they are communicating with. What sense it to assume that the people they are talking to belong to a small minority of the population? Statistically speaking, you'd be most often wrong.

From my perspective, in regards to mentioning how most people can immigrate, I was also overlooking felons and people with terminal disease, as they also do not have an option to immigrate to Canada and some other nations (unless they were refugees). Despite that, there are some nations with less restrictive processes and you may only need to afford a plane ticket.

I am probably not addressing the basis of your question (because I am keeping it to context and relative to my own thoughts). If you are really wondering why people's conception of reality seems to exclude the existence of poor disabled people, I ask in return, where should our awareness & concern of such people come from? Do we see disabled people on TV? Are images of their trials and problems broadcast on billboards, reported on the front page of newspapers? No, its all hidden away, at every level, before even the populace has to think about the issues. Perhaps that keeps them from collectively demanding the government help more? Who knows if there is a reason. I think though, that it is safe to say, our society as a whole does not advertise the fact that poor and disabled people are a part of our society. With all you know of the average American (and the half stupider than that), do you expect them to think critically about anything pertaining to this (without having their hands held)?

[bobbolink]

142. nice defense

And here I thought all these years that "progressives" and Dems had concern for poor folk, and thought of us along with everyone else.

Shows you just how wrong I can be.

If Dems aren't able to raise awareness about poverty, then how can they legitmatly expect the votes of poor folk???????????

[Oregone]

148. With all do respect...

The person I was talking about was asking about why the disabled poor were overlooked in my original assertation that most who wish to immigrate can do so (as were felons and terminally ill people, which I pointed out in response).

Nowhere was there a question of why "progressives" and Dems had had no concern for poor folk? I think you are really extrapolating here to create some sort of point, and if you looked at the origin of the question, this is kind of a silly direction you are taking this in.

Im actually formally a member of the "poor" (and was at the time of applying). Being poor provided a free education (and other social services that I grew up on), which helped me immigrate eventually (still, I had incredibly lucky circumstances). Being "poor" alone did not keep me from starting and pursuing this process, but on the other hand, my parents shouldered the burden and I was able to be debt free when I started out. That aside, my opinion is that poverty is the number one concern/threat to human societies, and it should be our number one priority of all nations. Tackling the issue of poverty will so quickly erase so many other issues around us.

[grasswire]

151. how will it make a dramatic change without dissenters?

Hmm?

[Oregone]

159. Im going to have to let you figure that one out. nt

[bobbolink]

127. Exactly. Useless Eaters Need Not Apply.

:nuke:

[comtec]

90. Where are you going?

We expats gotta stick together (at least online :) )
I would recommend Sweden, or any oth the Scandinavian countries if you can. they're mellow, laid back, and tend to fight like hell against the common wisdom ( you should see the commercials out of Sweden.. OMFG LOL)

I hear Canada is nice this time of year, but they started closing their borders to the rats jumping ships a few years ago :(

Either way, good luck, it's HARD AS HELL living in another country. And that's an understatement. I truly wish you the best of luck :) and dont be a stranger. :)

[Oregone]

98. Just heading north

To Vancouver Island..leaving in a few hours actually.

Wed love to goto Scandinavia...thats where a lot of my family is from. But logistically, it makes things 10X as hard, if not more, so we had to settle for somewhere closer and a bit more familiar. Is that where you are?

[comtec]

102. nah, just holland here

my wife is dutch.
She has a rather perm. job, and I didn't made the math real easy :)
Canada, shoot, that's hardly even another country, just a really laid back state :)
No culture shock for you, I'm kind of jealous really :)

[baby_mouse]

116. Not particularly dramatic, and only hyperbolic

if it's an exaggerated description of something. The OP states in clear and unambiguous terms exactly what motivates them and these motivations may only be assumed to be false or exaggerated if you have privileged access to the inside of their head, which, given that I don't believe in telepathy, I'm going to have to assert you don't have.

[bobbolink]

129. Isn't it interesting how "drama" has become the "cool" way to denounce and reject somebody?

As if the speaker, whoever it is, NEVER has any emotions of their own, and that ALL emotions are "drama" (bad).

Ever so interesting...

:P

[baby_mouse]

140. Yes. As an argument it's meaningless gibberish. NT

[bobbolink]

143. Oh, it has meaning, alright. One more putdown.. one more judgement...

From the party of "awareness" and "compassion".

It really is time for us to begin to look at ourselves.

[Jack Bone]

10. Best of Luck!!

K&R

[Hydra]

11. I'd be running too, if I could

So with no little envy, I wish you good journey and try to stay invisible in the coming WWIII- dead people accomplish nothing.

[Common Sense Party]

12. I have no idea what you said.

But please check back in a few years and tell us how much greener the grass is wherever you're going.

Where ARE you going, by the way?

[aspergris]

126. Utopianistan?

Kind of like Garrison Keillor's hometown, but with foreign accents.

Everybody's above average!

[derby378]

13. Good luck to you - but I elect to stay and fight

My best to you and your family. Stay safe, and hold on to each other.

[Oregone]

44. And I respect your choice, too!

:)

Thank you for your wishes.

[Pastiche423]

14. I wish you luck, love and happiness in your journey

[mike_c]

15. god speed and good luck!

Sounds like a well-thought plan. Best wishes to you! :hi:

[NattPang]

16. Too bad.

Our constitution was gutted
with the passage of the
Patriot Act.
So you are late leaving.

[Javaman]

17. This is one grand goodbye post that I actually enjoyed.

Peace.

And all I ask of you is this: please help the refugees when those of us get out too late.

good luck.

[Ishoutandscream2]

18. I guess I'm getting personal, but I am curious

How difficult has the process been to leave the country and obtain citizenship in another. I have too many coals in the fire here, so that prevents me from thinking of an escape at this moment. But in a few years I may have the "luxury" that you have. Of course, things could change for the better. I'm not real hopeful right now, but you never know.

[mnhtnbb]

39. self-delete. Dup.

[mnhtnbb]

40. It takes some work. You have to figure where you can go based upon your situation.

Hubby and I have been planning a retirement home in Panama. We have our permanent resident visas.
By the end of the summer we will own our place there (no mortgage). We started this process of looking
right after the 2004 election.

We're retirement age (hubby is 65 and I'm 57) so Canada and New Zealand don't want us. We took a long look at other options--and neither of us is eligible for an EU visa--and settled on Panama.
They have excellent retiree benefits and the economy is booming.

We won't be citizens--but we do have permanent resident visas. We have been hoping for the best and planning for the worst. Best case scenario we split our retirement between Chapel Hill, NC (which I love) and Panama; worst case we move permanently to Panama.

I'm not ready to move permanently. Our youngest son starts college this fall. But this FISA vote
is very disappointing. If enough people abandon Obama because of his vote, it will set up the close
race with McCain that will make it possible for the Repubs to steal another one. I do believe
that if McCain wins, we might just be headed for Panama on a permanent basis a lot sooner than
I'd have thought just a week ago.

Good luck to you, Oregone.

[CreekDog]

56. ah, FISA vote bad, can't live here anymore, have to go to...

Panama? :wtf:

I wish you well, but don't say it's based on principle. :eyes:

[Oregone]

61. Edited...

On edit: I thought you were casting derision on my own decision, tying it to the passing of the FISA bill (I see you were responding to someone else). But I do stand by the statement that FISA is a sympton of a sick system, yet another indicator of what is wrong. People shouldn't leave because of a simple event, but rather, look at the larger system producing such events. Finally, people shouldn't just be leaving to run away--rather, they should be going to something they desire more.

[CreekDog]

63. i was talking to the other poster about moving to Panama

you might find Canada is as imperfect as we are. :think: but it's a great place, that's for sure.

[Oregone]

65. There is no such thing as 'perfect' in the real world,

But there are places that are perfect for certain people.

Besides, what the hell, at least we are giving it a whirl. Perhaps living there will be radically different than visiting, but at least we've given it a try. I don't claim now its a be all, end all to finding perfect existence and happiness, but at least its a shot at something that may be a bit better. We are open minded, if anything.

[Oregone]

45. Moderate to difficult, based on where you are going...

It costs some money, and then you have to figure out how to get there, and get your "stuff" there (which we are leaving behind), so it is tough logistically.

Every country has their own requirements and fees. Im actually not going to be a citizen for some time.

The best thing to do is check out the immigration sites of countries you are interested in, where most have tests that you can take on your own to see if you score high enough. They include factors about health, job, money, age, etc.

[orleans]

112. good luck on your exciting new adventure!

i lived in canada for awhile (a long time ago). i loved it. it was beautiful and everyone i met was so nice.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Anybody who cares about the Constitution is voting Obama.

Everybody else is just playing lip service.

[Joe Fields]

53. Anyone who promotes such drivel is a fool.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

156. .

:thumbsup:

[Fox Mulder]

20. There's still a Democrat who is fighting for us...

he hasn't given up and run away.

[symbolman]

21. Good news, Godspeed

the smart Jews with any money got the he'll out before the shithouse burned down.. We moved to the outer edges of the Bush Empire, but have found it too expensive, we're going to hang around and see how President Obama does, if that doesnt pan out New Zealand looks right pretty :)

I admire your strenght, it will be a hard road to hoe, but if you find Peace that's all that counts.. Life is to short to live under a Fascist Rule hoping Some Day it will all get better.

You're the director if your life's movie :)

Good luck!

[pokercat999]

42. Symbolman, trying not to be too picky but it is really, really

hard to hoe a road....not quite as hard to hoe a ROW. You can drive on a road, a paved road or a dusty road, a bumpy road or a slick, wet and icy road but a road is very hard to hoe. So remember the next time you're hoeing your ROW, it will be harder if it's dry and the dirt is hard or if there are lots of weeds but it will surely be easier than hoeing a road.

:evilgrin:

[fla nocount]

55. HA

Coming home today I saw 3 hoes in the road and two more sitting on a bench waiting on a bus.

[CreekDog]

57. i thought you hoe a "row" not a "road"

:shrug:

[symbolman]

76. Now you went and made me cry..

If I wasn't so heavily medicated I'd be upset.. :)

Sorry, I use my IPhone to post, and with my big Manly fingers it aint easy.. Like trying to thread a needle with sausages..

At least I didn't mix metaphors, like so many kids do nowadays.. And amazingly enough I HAVE hoed a road, in the Liberal Gulag camp after I told Cheney I hoped he accidentally walked into a restaurant that had dozens of microwaves going all at the same time..

[TBF]

22. Oregone, I wish you well -

we've been having these thoughts lately as well and trying to find a more conventional way to do it (work transfer that sort of thing...). You are brave to look out for your family this way. I hope you'll be in touch when you are settled in your new spot. L'Chaim.

[SoCalDem]

23. How do you get universal health care in only 3 months?

I take it you are moving to Canada, but I thought their "assimilation" plan took considerably longer than 3 months.

:)

[Common Sense Party]

25. You mean you can't just move there and get "free" health care

on day one?

[mudesi]

37. Yes, free

No need for the quotation marks. Maybe not on day one, but free nonetheless.

[Common Sense Party]

38. Nothing is free. Somebody pays for it.

[file83]

80. Economics 101, good for you. But if the risk is spread out evenly across

an entire society, then the cost per capita isn't so much. In-other-words, it's not that somebody pays for it, it's more that everybody pays for it.

The other side of the coin is how much it COSTS. In the US the healthcare system prices are artificially inflated for profits, but when EVERYONE pays, then it's curious how in other countries healthcare magically isn't as expensive.

Put those two factors together and it's easy for a society to absorb new citizens who haven't yet contributed to get "free" universal healthcare. ("Free" is in quotes because it's "free" for the new citizens at first, but they will eventually contribute to society by purchasing goods & services which contribute positively to the economy by supporting jobs, etc...)

[eridani]

93. They meant "free at the point of service" n/t

[Common Sense Party]

104. I guess so, but my PPO plan is free at the point of service, as well.

If that simply means I don't have to pay anything at the doctor's office. :)

[eridani]

135. You pay too much for your plan because you are in a fragmented risk pool

The bigger the risk pool, the cheaper the insurance. The biggest, cheapest risk pool of all is the entire population.

[Oregone]

46. No, you can't

Depends on the country I guess.

But you have to understand, they need to get you in the system first, you know.

[Oregone]

33. I have to apply

I'm already a permanent resident when I land.

[Book Lover]

24. In bocca al lupo!

Best of luck to you and yours. Have a safe trip, and enjoy your new adventure.

[kpominville]

26. I want to be able to say I tried my best before giving up

But I don't blame you for getting out now if you have kids.

[Indenturedebtor]

27. Where are you headed?

We're considering doing the same thing ourselves for many of the same reasons.

Please share where you're going and how you are able to go there! Please!

[roguevalley]

31. Leaving Oregon. Hugs, honey. I wish you well.

RV, one Oregonian to another.

[Oregone]

47. Im taking a ferry...

But only so far as Vancouver Island...the proximity surely makes logistics somewhat easier.

You can apply for Skilled Workers Immigration. There is an online test that will let you know if you will pass, and a ton of information at the government website. You do not need a lawyer BTW.

[Indenturedebtor]

51. Right on thanks for sharing :D

We'd rather avoid Canada if we can. And I'd be shocked if Canada wants more salesmen and admin assistants heh.

[screembloodymurder]

62. Was just out at Point No Point.

Beautiful.

[Zhade]

83. But don't you need either a job lined up or like 10 grand in the bank?

NT!

[Oregone]

84. You must have 15K CAN in the bank, but as for the job...

It gives you points, but if you have points from other areas (age, language speaking, degrees including spouse), then it is not necessary. It is actually tough to get a job BEFORE you have clearance to work legally. It creates a chicken and egg scenario. You are better off taking a community college course in French and proving proficiency.

[Dukkha]

28. I envy you

If i had the means I'd have left after 2004. You nailed it that it's just a land mass we were born under and there no obligation to serve the rulers that control it. We are humans bound to this planet not Americans bound to a country. Patriotism is perhaps the most illogical and irrational of all emotions. It's right up there with fundamental religion in being a major case of human atrocities in history.

Best of luck. Hopefully you'll watch us regroup from a far but I fear instead you'll watch us self-destruct.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. You say you're leaving, but you don't say where.

Given that you say your car is packed, it could be Canada ....... or Tierra del Fuego ...... or anyplace in between.

[Oregone]

48. Well, it wasn't my point of emphasis

So I tried to leave it blank. Everyone has their own conceptions of what a "better" place is, and being so, I tried to create more of a fill-in-the-blank for those reading who may experience similar thoughts (rather than create a reaction about the place I am choosing to go).

Im headed up to Vancouver Island, BC.

And despite the tone of my OP, Im running to the area, rather than running away from this area. Thats important for people to understand, and I really neglected to point that out. Its probably just my poor mood today.

[pengillian101]

119. Poor mood?

"Im running to the area, rather than running away from this area. Thats important for people to understand, and I really neglected to point that out. Its probably just my poor mood today."

If you are running TO a better place, why the poor mood? I would think you'd be happy.

Happy trails to you.

[RufusTFirefly]

30. You aren't a coward, Oregone. You're thoughtful, courageous, and forward thinking.

Good luck to you and your family in your new life.

[EconomyCollapsesInUS]

32. I Feel Exactly The Same Way

I am 42, and do not see myself dying in this country.

The main things keeping me here for now, are the standards. Family, job, friends.

I talk a good game about getting the hell out of dodge, but have yet to take steps to do so. I admire you for making the effort, and having the courage.

There are plenty of people here that will call you coward, and say you're deserting the country. The same was said about those who got in the Titanic lifeboats. Perhaps you would be more worthy if you stayed onboard, and went down with the ship.

[BeHereNow]

34. I nominate this thread for the DU Classic Hall of Fame! K&R!!!

Traveling Mercies to you and yours.

I think you should take the FISA vote as a sign
that you have made the best decision possible.

Please, do stay in touch with us.

BHN

:hug:

[kenny blankenship]

35. Good luck, wherever you go.

[geomon666]

36. Good luck. n/t

[RidinMyDonkey]

41. Congratulations and good luck!

I spend a lot of time lurking here and this is the first time I've actually been bothered to post something. This thread has literally brought me to tears. Do not mistake what I'm trying to say. I think it's absolutely great you are getting yourself and your family out of here before shit gets worse. But, it's a sad day indeed when this country has become so torn apart citizens think their only option is to leave.

Long have I considered making the move to Canada, but this is only my first election as a registered voter and as someone who actually cares what's going on in the world. I want to give it some time before I jump ship. Good luck to you though, I genuinely hope you have a better time in your new home than you have had here. If I ever I decide to make that move, I'll remember this post and I'll remember you as being an inspiration to get me going.

[ForrestGump]

43. Happy trails!

I hope that the rest of your lives make the first parts look like just a warm-up, in the best possible way.

And don't pay any mind to the asshats here who're grumbling about people like you who've reached escape velocity. Their condemnation is to some degree symptomatic of darned good reasons for getting out of this country.

I'm originally from a nation that sees its progeny disperse far and wide, so maybe that and my having lived in other countries about half my life have resulted in a perspective naturally more global and inclusive than that of jingoistic mofos who think the US is the be-all and end-all or who shout that anyone who "runs away" is a coward. To hell with them. On the other hand, I think there're plenty of native-born Americans who'd happily follow in your wake, whatever the impetus for leaving the USA may be.

Enjoy your new life!

[Oregone]

49. BTW, Thanks everyone for their positive wishes!

It means a lot to me to see people here understanding and enthusiastic (I get mixed reactions normally)! I too, hope the best for everyone in their lives, wherever they may be.

[VOX]

50. I hear you, and wish you well, but the United States will always be home...

As for greener pastures, they are sometimes hard to see, but can nonetheless be found while staring in awe at the Grand Canyon; snorkeling the Kona Coast in Hawaii; walking the beaches of Oregon in winter; listening to some blistering Texas blues in a small club in Austin; enjoying seats along the third-base line at a midsummer-night baseball game; hiking in the mountains so far from civilization that the enveloping silence actually feels like a sound; and taking in the explosion of color that is New England in the fall.

I was born here, and I've walked the roads of this country and talked with its people -- I feel an almost spiritual attachment to the land. My mother was from Seattle, and my dad from El Paso. My wife hails from Montana. Our family has other roots in Colorado, Texas, Mississippi, Wisconsin, Idaho.

Things are bad here, certainly the worst I've seen in my lifetime, and frankly, some things are downright insane -- but this is home. I will not be run off by a pack of carpetbagging, gerrymandering, lying, stealing, murdering Republicans, whose problems begin with the erroneous idea that they're better than anyone else.

There's much work to be done, and at times, it feels insurmountable. I'm tired of fighting, tired of feeling like I have no voice, tired of watching so much that is good and pure being destroyed. But I'm not alone -- far from it, there are many Americans who feel the same.

So I won't be going to Canada, or the UK, or New Zealand. I will be here, at home, doing my small part to turn this country around, even if, in the end, that effort proves fruitless.

Oregone, you have stated your feelings eloquently and with great passion. This will be a lesser place with your departure, but I wish you well, and hope you find the peace that you desire for you and your family.

Vaya con Dios. :hi:

[Blue Diadem]

52. If we were younger, we might be doing the same thing.

Not so much because of the state of our country,(although I'm as disgusted with it as you are) but because since I first visited Canada as a child, I loved being there and always dreamed of living there. As a young adult, our parents and their need for our help kept us here. Now they are gone but as middle aged adults, our grown kids and grandkids keep us here and so we stay to stand with our family and help them through whatever may come.

I wish you the best and hope your move to your new country lives up to every bit of your dreams. Have a safe trip and when you get a chance to get back online after you are settled, I hope you check in and let us know how you're doing.

[Joe Fields]

54. I sympathize. The best of luck to you and your family.

[tabasco]

58. It's a big world out there. Lots of nice places to live. None of them are perfect.

Europe is way ahead of us. They have more history.

The USA is a young country. We have lots of work to do.

No need to be such a drama queen. Live where you want. Good luck.

[Oregone]

64. What you may of missed about my unsubstantiated 'premise'...

Despite having lots of work to do, no amount of work will radically alter the overall system/society. The rules are written as such to perpetuate poverty and create the maximum profitability/growth/power for the upper echelons of society.

Yes, no place is perfect. Some may be a bit easier and more enjoyable to live in (as world surveys suggest). Instead of being a political martyr fighting relentlessly for a cause that will probably never come to pass, why not live and pursue real happiness in another region (not a perfect region, but more perfect FOR YOU)?

I apologize about the drama. No one wants to be 'that' person.

[earth mom]

66. Ok, I'm totally envious. Hubby & I have been throwing around the idea of moving to Vancouver Island

for years. However, we can't actually leave the U.S. because hubby has 10 more years to do before retirement from his job. However, we have relatives in Canada so we think we could easily move there, but hubby would have to transfer to a job close to the border and commute-if it's even possible for hubby to get that transfer. We've done nothing more than toss the idea around though, because there are so many hurdles. But the past week or so, I've been reading the website of a family that sold everything and have been traveling the world for 2 years and now seeing your post makes me really want to go for it. I think we are both gypsies at heart, but more than that, neither of us can take much more of the increasingly scary sh*t that is going on here in the U.S.A!

Anyway, good luck on your new adventure! Btw, how are real estate prices on Vancouver Island? B-)

[Oregone]

68. Good luck on figuring out your situation...

Its tough when you are close to retiring, I'm sure. I'm still in my 20's so it is a bit easier. If you are just barely considering it, you should get started with investigating it, because its not something that needs to be some long lost dream (its something most people can really do). But it does take time.

Prices on Vancouver Island are going up FAST (who knows if they'll hold). The market in BC is strong (construction is their top industry, Ive read, which is as big as the oil industry in other provinces). With the USD at parity, buying there is not going to be something we can do for years.

[earth mom]

70. Thank you for replying. Maybe we should be looking at a wee bit of land instead....

:hi:

[NRaleighLiberal]

71. Lovely post, and the sentiment is well understood. Best of luck and congrats.

My wife and I have spoken of doing the same a number of times over the past 7 plus years. Perhaps some day....Thanks for sharing your imminent adventure, and keep in touch through DU and let us know how things go!

[JamesA1102]

72. Don't let the door hit you in the ass! nt

[Oregone]

77. I wont, thanks!

[glitch]

73. BC is beautiful! I envy you... But it doesn't mean you have to stop posting here!

I'd love to hear how things go. Good Luck!

[NC_Nurse]

74. Best of luck to you!

:hi: :hug:

[Guaranteed]

75. You picked the wrong time to leave.

Things are just starting to turn around.

Good luck anyway.

[Oregone]

78. Turn around or not,

I do not feel they will ever be equivalent, in any reasonable amount of time, to the conditions I will shortly be within. Is there a deeper social sickness, fueling our lust for greed, our addiction to consumerism and prescription drugs, our embrace of violence as seen domestically (school shootings, beatings, fights), our rampant anti-intellectualism, our corporate controlled society?

If there is a deeper and darker undercurrent than simply what bills get passed, can things ever turn around far enough, quick enough, to justify staying and not avoiding it all?

[Zhade]

82. Not far behind you, my friend. Best wishes for your safe journey.

This country is broken.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Good luck in your quest

and I hope your new land treats you better

Having seen this one from the cheery eyes of a young immgrant who now knows better... I know how painful it can be when that dream dies

We will fight

But truth be told, we already lost the war

[Solly Mack]

88. You have the opportunity to increase the scope of your life. Take it! Enjoy it!

Live it to the fullest!

It's your life and your peace of mind. Do what you have to do.

[Mind_your_head]

89. Wishing you all the best!

godspeed.

[Greyhound]

91. Right behind you, but with a longer journey.

We're afraid that Canada is too close and too dependent on this fascist state to resist when the real shit starts.

Good luck to you and yours.

[anitar1]

92. Best of luck to you and the family. I have similar thoughts of

leaving, but it is too late for me. Adult children and many grand children here.I wish we could all go. At least I am in Oregon State which is better than many states. wishing you much happiness in your new home.

[slackmaster]

94. The concept of "buy low, sell high" seems to be lost here, but good luck to you anyway!

:hi:

I look forward to having Universal Health Care in 3 months from now.

May the pastures remain green after you tread on them.

[LibraLiz1973]

95. Good luck to you. We've been contemplating leaving since 2004

Right now it is just a series of thoughts.
I think America is no longer a country for the people.
The Government is TOTALLY broken & I don't see a clear way back to
any kind of normalcy. If McCain wins in November, leaving will
seem a lot more necessary. No doubt in my mind he will start something
worse than even GWB did. For as angry as GW is, I think McCain
is an even darker soul. How horrible is that?

[kdpeters]

96. Good luck to you. Try not to lecture to the strangers where ever you end up.

It was such a lovely post until the last three paragraphs when you started making presumptions and judgments on those of us who've not come to think and decide the same way you do. I realize you were trying to anticipate some of the jerks who can be counted on to offer their own judgments and lectures about your decision, but instead you became the jerk you were looking for. I understand your decision and wish you every happiness even if I haven't made the same decision. I'm not a martyr here. This is my home.

[Oregone]

101. Thanks for the advice

I actually do have a habit of lecturing people (especially regarding politics) in real life, being that most everyone I encounter is so misinformed and I can't keep my mouth shut. Its a bad quality of mine, and I hope to keep it shut in the future.

In this instance it was not meant like that. It was to preempt the small percentage of people who were going to call me a "coward" (some did, who had their comments removed). I guess I was just trying to leverage against that before it started, and did not do so in the spirit of making assumptions about everyone here. The only assumption I made was there was going to at least be one person, for whatever reason, who would fly of the handle.

[LynnTheDem]

97. The best of love, peace & happiness to you and yours!

{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

[redqueen]

100. Good luck...

I hope to do the same, and soon.

[Phillycat]

103. We leave September 11th for our move to Europe.

Just because the flights were cheaper, not for any grand statement. :D

Good luck to you. Since you mentioned a car, where ya headed - Canada or Mexico?

[Delphinus]

105. I wish you well.

Send us good thoughts after you get settled - you know we'll need them!

[grace0418]

107. Congrats and good luck. A few years ago my husband got an opportunity

that could've landed him at UBC for at least a couple of years. He got freaked out and didn't call the person. I was very angry for a very long time about that, it would've been an easy way for us to get into the country.

[MattSh]

109. Congrats.

There is life beyond the USA. There really is!

I left the USA 09/30/2005. Took the easy way. By marriage. But in other ways, it hasn't been easy, since everything here is so different, including the language. But that's part of the challenge, and the fun. And I've recently gained permanent residency in my new hometown Kiev, Ukraine. I'm under no illusions that things are perfect here, or will be anytime soon.

I've got so much more here than before. A wonderful wife and son, two homes, a car, and no debt (except a small student loan balance). And health care too, though it does leave a bit to be desired sometimes, I do have it.

[pollo poco]

113. This Oregonian wishes you all the best

I am leaving for Europe in September. Very lucky to have the option.
I share every sentiment you have expressed. Like you, my plans were made long ago.
My second choice would be the British Columbian Islands. There are so many gems.
I may end up there yet.

I am much older than you. Getting out with the shrunken equity from my home sale.
Again, lucky to have any equity. Now I am traveling light.

When I was a kid, I always asked my mom why more Jews didn't leave Germany.
This process has given me a lot of insight into the question. It's hard to leave everything you have built with your life.
The more time you have into it, the harder it gets. But I share your lack of faith.

These days I feel like there is a target painted on my back.
I fear they already have a place for me in their camps, and a nice pink triangle to wear.
Many will pooh pooh me, but my Jewish friends over 50 don't.

Happiness and blessings to you. BC is a great place. The dream is alive and well there.
Canada will soon be as proud of you as we all are.

[NJCher]

114. Good luck, Oregone!

I wish you and your family the best in your new venture. :)

I also wanted to say I liked how you summed this up:

...social sickness, fueling our lust for greed, our addiction to consumerism and prescription drugs, our embrace of violence as seen domestically (school shootings, beatings, fights), our rampant anti-intellectualism, our corporate controlled society?


...and could I also add, "lack of a conscience?" As a nation, we have no committment to the world as a whole. There is no thought about how this country's actions affects people individually.

It's a very sick country and I see nothing happening to move it back to anything resembling what it once was. The healthiest thing to do is to leave a sick country.



Cher

[FirstLight]

117. I would be long gone, 'cept for this chain around my ankle

...you see, I am a proletariat and have no money to have traveled, much less move out of the country.
.
In fact, I can honestly sy I have never left the US. Not even canada or mexico. And I have seen very little of this land as well...Been to Mississippi to see relatives once when I was 12, DC in 8th grade, went to Ashland, OR once on a weekend in winter at 19, and that's it. Otherwise I haven't even explored Northern Califrnia as much as I would like.

Lots of world to see... I used to want to go to the Sorbonne, write in a cafe by the Seine. I even took 5 years of french in high school and still practice from time to time.... Mais oui!
I haven't traveled because of a lack of wanting - but I am poor, and undereducated, and have 3 kids and no child support and many other hurdles to climb. Unfortunately I feel at times like these that I have no choice but to hunker down and hope for the best, because it is really all the chance I have for change.

Good luck to you, and if you can send us a boxcar, we'll be along soon!

[Taverner]

118. Live long and Prosper, my friend

[marions ghost]

120. you're right to be seeking something better of course

but don't assume that everyone here has the choice that you do to just pick up and leave.

Some of us are going to have to stay and try to help fix it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

121. Pay no attention to the naysayers

If I weren't over 50 (and therefore considered undesirable by countries that accept immigrants), I'd be out of here.

There's a reason that most of our immigrants are from the Third World now. Most people in other Western countries see no reason to come here, unless it's for a specific job or a specific person.

[Imagevision]

122. The new world order chose Bush to begin the new trend cycle, no-shit!

[TahitiNut]

130. God Save The Queen!

:eyes:

:patriot:

:shrug:

[NuttyFluffers]

131. bye, best of luck! keep in touch!

:toast:

[Fiendish Thingy]

132. Good Luck! I'll be joining you in BC in about 18 mos.

I look forward to the day when I can say I no longer pay for torture, no longer pay for this war, no longer pay for this war's deficits.

Despair over our shredded Constitution, and disillusion over the Democratic congress's cowardice and complicity drove me to apply for Canadian residency; despite the hardship that likely lies ahead, I look forward to the change...

To those who remain, by choice or circumstance, my best to you as you fight on...

BTW, someone posted above that Canada is tightening immigration; that's not true- Canada has a shortage of skilled labor and desparately wants immigrants. The problem is, they're not allocating enough resources to process the flood of applications from around the world (US visa applications have doubled during Bush's terms). The current wait time is about 18mos; we submitted our application in February 2008, and expect our visa to be ready next August. Then we have to sell our home and find new jobs ( and my wife has to take a licensing test for her job as a medical technologist), so although we hope to land in about a year, we don't expect to relocate permanently until sometime in 2010, probably after the Olympics.

So, to those who are considering Canada, don't give up! They have even recently lowered the application fees.

Maybe we could start a community of DU/BC expatriates (or, as I prefer, Patriots-In-Exile)!

[Oregone]

150. Great to hear that you are coming too!

"I look forward to the day when I can say I no longer pay for torture, no longer pay for this war, no longer pay for this war's deficits."

This is a really similar thought Ive had myself, and I am incredibly excited about freeing myself from that as well.

[EbenezerMcIntosh]

133. It's all about "you." I hope "you" are happy.

[baby_mouse]

138. Well, yah. It is.

Where Oregone decides to live really is all about Oregone.

?

What are you trying to say?

[Oregone]

160. That's sort of a point I'm getting at...

Were all hedonistic creatures at heart, and maybe it just doesn't appear so because concepts such as guilt, honor, responsibility override the rudimentary pleasure principle, causing a shift in the perception of stimuli.

I'm just doing whatever everyone else is doing for MYself and MY family, all the while throwing concepts like patriotism and martyrdom in a trashcan to rot. The end result is that not only am I satisfying MYself (as those who "fight the good fight" do), I'm also bettering my environment at the same time (thus leading to the attainment of future pleasure at less effort).

Its all about me--what I am doing. What you are doing is all about you, even if you see it as a fight for the unnamed masses (being that such a struggle is simply satisfying one of your intrinsic desires, or avoiding the pain which Guilt would bring you for not doing so). Were not different in our Ends, but merely our Means due to social programming.

[old mark]

139. Oregone, all the best, and I hope you will love your new home.

My grandmother and father came to the US from Bermany right after WWI, in which my grandfather was killed.
It can be difficult adjusting to a new country, and I wish your family all the best.

If possible, can you post again after you have settled in and begun your transition?

Mark

[LSK]

141. I have toyed with the idea of moving to Europe but never really did anything about it

I hope someday the US will be more European.

[mrs_p]

144. vancouver island

is a fantastic place and i envy you!! it truly is a special spot on this planet and i wish you the best!

[smitty]

146. Good luck in Canada, you have few surprises coming your way.

Most good so I think you'll do well. Perhaps you'll also lose some of your disdain for your fellow Americans.

[Oregone]

149. "Perhaps you'll also lose some of your disdain for your fellow Americans"

I would undoubtedly welcome that. :)


The surprises Ive encountered in other countries in the past have been mostly pleasant so far. I expect there will be negative ones as well (we are visiting family before we cross in a few days). But, with all, they will be unique experiences that we can build on, which we probably could not have gotten any other way.

[grasswire]

153. did I see your stuff on craigslist?

There's more than one listing this weekend for "leaving the country, must get rid of everything."

Honestly, my first thought was that it's great to have one less person in Oregon!

[Oregone]

154. Not me...

Keeping all my "stuff" for the moment.

We will bring some other stuff with us when we have a chance to go back and cleanup the rest with a U-Haul.

About half our consumer crap, Id be ecstatic to donate to charity when I get a chance.

[BooScout]

152. Bon Voyage

....and check your pms.:)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

155. New Zealand looks appealing

[NNN0LHI]

157. Wait a minute. Don't they have high-speed internet in Vancouver?

I mean you are not really leaving, leaving. Your still going to be posting here ain't you?

Kind of like spending some time at a vacation home in Canada. Just maybe longer than usual.

Don

[Oregone]

158. Haha

Yeah, not leaving DU, no. Basically, yes, like a vacation that doesn't end (hopefully).