Local revival with faith healer still drawing criticism, this time from a psychotherapist.

[madfloridian]

From a letter to the editors today, a therapist expresses concern for a patient who stopped taking his medication after he was told by Bentley that he was healed.

Healed? Double check

After the June 22 front-page article on the Florida Outpouring Revival <"Signs and Warnings">, I simply have to speak up. I am a psychotherapist. Several weeks ago, the mother of a young adult patient of mine called for an appointment for her son.

He had been stable for quite some time on his medications for schizophrenia. He had recently decompensated, and was hospitalized in order to stabilize him and restart his medications.

He had attended one of Todd Bentley's gatherings and was told by Mr. Bentley that he was "healed." He stopped his medications, only to relapse into psychosis.

The outcome could have been worse. My client has very risky behaviors when psychotic. He might have died.

Even the pentecostal preachers in area are distancing themselves from this Canadian evangelist who is drawing crowds from around the world.


People worship and sing during the "Florida Outpouring" revival last week at The Lakeland Center.

Some background on this revival.

Some Pentecostal observers are calling the Lakeland revival the "third wave," following the "Toronto Blessing" that began in January 1994 and overlapped with the Brownsville Revival that began in June 1995 at Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola. In both of those revivals, there were daily services for more than two years, and both featured claims of miraculous healing and prophetic messages and worship practices not usually found in most churches, such as speaking in tongues and "holy laughter," in which worship leaders and portions of the crowd are seized with long bouts of hysterical laughter.
Bentley revival

But there was little outcry from the evangelical community until he started claiming to raise the dead.

If you are interested there is a video of Bentley at the link.


Canadian evangelist Todd Bentley lies on the stage at the "Florida Outpouring" revival last week at The Lakeland Center. Bentley has preached, prayed in tongues, relayed prophetic messages and laid hands on people wanting to be healed from a wide range of troubles, from financial difficulties to mental illness to cancer.

While faith healing is a part of the Pentecostal tradition, the claims of resurrections have raised eyebrows. No dead bodies have been brought into the revival. Rather, reports of the recent death of a loved one - in some cases located long distances away - are relayed to the stage by e-mail or cell phone, and Bentley has led prayers for the person to be revived.

"We do our best to find out the situation. In one case, a boy drowned in a pool. He had no pulse, wasn't breathing and was clinically brain dead," he said.

A recent article quoted several ministers here who are really getting concerned at the international attention this guy is drawing.

[Donnachaidh]

1. PT Barnum could probably take lessons from these charlatans

Religion will be the downfall of the human race.

[hobbit709]

3. Barnum at least admitted he was in it for the money.

[Zhade]

13. I can't take credit for this, but - "there's a sucker born-again every minute".

I think our own Hawkeye-X came up with that truism.

[WoodyM]

36. I think it was P. T. Barnum but

whoever it was is wrong. It has to be more than that. Just think of the people who still think Bush is a good president.

[hobbit709]

2. Belief gets in the way of thinking

and vice versa.

[Ilsa]

4. It can be so dangerous for a psych patient to go cold turkey on meds.

Stopping drugs without weaning from them can cause health problems, for example, dizziness, just for abruptly stopping an antidepressant med.

People can be so careless about meds. And doctors and pharmacists have to be very clear to caregivers about abruptly stopping psych meds.

[Skittles]

5. can failth healing heal idiot syndrome?

apparently not

[eShirl]

15. heal it? it relies on it

[Ian David]

22. Sadly, no...

[TlalocW]

6. This, unfortunately, is nothing new

Read, "The Faith Healers," by James Randi. During his attendance of several faith healing events, not just individual people brought up on stage but the whole audience were told to prove their faith that God was going to heal them instead of letting the Devil continue to run their lives by making them take medication and going to Earthly doctors (who were doing the Devil's work either intentionally or through their own ignorance), and the way they proved it was by throwing their meds up on stage.

Randi went up on stage after the event and found diabetes pills, heart medicine, etc. In some cases, the medicine had already been picked through by the evangelists' staff to get the "good stuff." While trying to do individual case studies on people who had gone up on stage and been "healed," they found right at the start that one man had died because he quit taking his meds.

These people are some of the lowest of the low, and if there is a hell, they'll be going to the deepest, darkest pits.

TlalocW

[hlthe2b]

7. Where's Marjoe Gortner when we need him?

Come on back Marjoe. Another round of talk show circuits and press junkets debunking these charlatons would be greatly appreciated.

[madfloridian]

11. Here's a video of Marjoe Gortner as a very young boy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSdI8ag1k0A

There is something so wrong with this.

[Irishonly]

28. A Link for Marjoe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe_Gortner

When I first read madfloridian's post Marjoe was the first thing I thought of. I didn't find anything to back up what I guess is urban legend. I had always thought he talked people into giving up their drugs for the Lord and threw some legendary parties.

[Rex]

8. Long bouts of hysterical laughter...hmmm...

and claims of bring back the dead. Could only be one person.

[MindPilot]

9. So who's to blame?

The the bullshit artist or the poor gullible schmuck who believes the bullshit?

Kinda like those sub-prime mortgages...

[SpiralHawk]

10. Mat 24:11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

"If you are opposed to the brutal brand of torture that the Pharisees of yesteryear inflicted upon me, then stop now the republicon-pseudo-christo warring, torture, and oil-profits crusade. Act today. Stop supporting, and find a legal, ethical way to oppose and depose the sactimonious Pharisitic torture-freak cabal that is damning America to moral, economic and environmental Hell."

- JC

[madfloridian]

16. About 30,000 a week are being deceived.

The locals are getting kind of nervous at the attention being drawn here.

[BR_Parkway]

55. Locals are getting kind of nervous at how much of "their" cash is

being siphoned off. Those folks only have so much to put into the plate, and if someone else's plate is getting passed, yours starts looking mighty empty.

[Edweird]

12. faith healers are fake? I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya.

I would have 'faith' but I have the things called *thoughts*.

[Monk06]

14. I can't wait for him to be charged with a felony for fraud or criminal negligence causing

bodily harm. Then he can have his Canadian passport
revoked.

[desktop]

17. Maybe in Canada, but he won't be charged in USA

Evangelists in USA don't get charged with anything, they do the charging, of all their victims credit cards. Heck, don't let Bush get his phone number or he will be invited to the white house for a state dinner.

[Dr.Phool]

18. A Psychotherapist!!!?

Quick! Call Tom Cruise! He'll straighten that guy out, and jump around on his couch.

And if Tom's not available, there's plenty of other Scientologists only an hour away in Clearwater. They own the fucking town.

[deaniac21]

19. You go, guy!

[Ian David]

20. Fundie chicks make me hot. They always look like they're having an orgasm.

[comtec]

24. that would be the ONLY time they're enjoying themselves...

their men just don't know crap!

[mikeytherat]

26. But what happened to their eyebrows? Were they "raptured up?"

I do like the redhead who "has the vapors," though.



mikey_the_rat

[Ian David]

30. Yeah, but the blond next to her seems more enthusiastic. n/t

[Ian David]

21. See also: James Randi exposes faith healer Rev. Peter Popoff

James Randi exposes faith healer Rev. Peter Popoff - Democratic ...
Peter Popoff, like many faith healers, calls out the names, illnesses, ... When world-famous magician and psychic investigator James Randi and his close . ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=vi...

Day Two: without an apology to all women of color from Clinton for ...
In Popoff's case, his ministry's tax-exempt status was recently revoked in Canada; also, skeptic scientist James Randi notoriously debunked Popoff on The ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=vi... - 91k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


God's Profits: Faith, Fraud And The GOP Crusade For Values Voters ...
"The Faith HEalers" by James Randi. Randi outed Peter Popoff on national TV (Carson show) in the '80s (?)-and I see Popoff is back on TV. ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=vi...

[irishlover]

23. I've been watching this off and on for weeks

Todd Bentley, Canadian pentacostal phenom, confirms Obama's
observation that desperate people cling to guns and God. I've
been watching a couple hours of this outpouring revival in
Lakeland Florida for the last 6 weeks. I've watched the slick
camera work, the mood music and the incitement of crowds in
the thousands by bizarre head twitches, goofy HAHAHAHA
laughter noises and "Sheekaba baba" talking in
tongues. I've watched people you would pass on the street and
say Hi to, just regular people, transformed into hand waving,
eye rolling, falling down crying slaves to this strange
looking manipulator. The psychoanalyst who talks about her
patient going off his meds because he was "healed",
the hundreds of others both in the hangar in Lakeland and
online from all over the world, who stop needed medications
because Todd told them they were healed, will all comprise a
sub group of people we will never hear about in one email or
newsreport. They will die, get sicker, or commit atrocities
on themselves or others, singly, one at a time and there will
be no way to gauge the damage this revival is doing. The
revival keeps adding days, keeps taking people's money and
keeps alienating reasonable ministers and pastors who are now
uncomfortable with these claims of raising the dead. I heard
him say this myself two weeks ago: he had 25 people come back
from the dead.
I believe in the power of the mind to heal. I do not believe
anyone needs Todd Bentley to smack them in the head or chest,
make them fall down and cover them with a red blanket. You
have Direct TV, check it out most nights on GodTV CH 365.

[Lars39]

29. Welcome to DU, irishlover !

"They will die, get sicker, or commit atrocities on themselves or others, singly, one at a time and there will be no way to gauge the damage this revival is doing." So true.

[Dogtown]

25. "Must be lookin' for answers"

"hard times flush the chumps..."

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. kick

[pegleg]

31. It's really just a cultural thing. If it works for some - great .

It may seem strange to some but it's no different than - say, a native American shaman or a wiccan ceremony. There is such a strong anti-Christian bias at DU, that anything related to christianity comes under scrutiny and is condemned. Notice that all those people are there of their own free will. So I would only say that if it bothers you, then consider yourself bothered.

[madfloridian]

32. Sorry, but I have to snicker.

Suddenly an evangelist who claims to bring the dead to life is just a cultural thing....and if we disapprove we have anti-religious bias.

Don't, my friend, lecture me about religion.

[pegleg]

33. Considered yourself lectured to, my friend. No harm in snickering though.

But bigotry in all its forms needs to confronted. criticism is a different matter altogether. Muslims have similar ceremonies as well as Asians, Native Americans, and Wiccans. Believe me you never see them under the microscope here, hence anti-christian discrimination and bigotry.

[drm604]

34. Christianity is what we encounter most in this country.

In the US, when you encounter religious fraud, it's mostly of the Christian variety. Not because other religions don't have con artists, but because the US is mostly Christian (and the vast majority of those are sincere and legitimate). If most of the religious fraud we encounter consists of fake Christians then naturally most of our criticism will be aimed at those fake Christians.

Hindu fraudsters stick mostly to places like India as there's no profit for them in the US. Since they're not here in large numbers we don't encounter them. Any that are operating here will be preying on the Hindu community and thus won't even be noticed by the larger public. People don't criticize what they're not aware of.

Native American fraudsters would operate, I'd imagine, mostly on reservations. So, like Hindus, they get very little public attention, most people are unaware of them, and they don't get criticized by the public at large.

I won't go through every possible brand of religious fraud because I think I've made my point. Fraudsters operating under the guise of a majority religion get noticed and receive much public criticism. Fraudsters operating under the guise of minority religions don't get much notice and therefore don't get much public criticism - plus, there are a lot less of them around to criticize.

This isn't a case of discrimination, much as you'd like to convince us otherwise. This is a case of criticizing the things we see a lot of and not criticizing the things we see very little of.

[pegleg]

37. Bigotry is bigotry.

whirling dirvishes happen here. Asian chicken healers happen here. wiccan happens here. Native american ceremonial dances happen here. Are they for real? that's not for me to decide.

[drm604]

39. Way to miss my point. n/t

[madfloridian]

40. It's me he is calling a bigot for my OP.

I consider it personal.

[pegleg]

42. I agree there are frauds and hucksters out there. But my point is

is that it isn't up to me whether or not all those people attend these things. Not one of them is forced to take part. If that is the way they choose to express themselves then so be it. I agee that it might look pretty foolish, but so might a thousand people prostrating themselves toward Mecca or a bunch of painted warriors dancing at the face of Mt.Rushmore, of a baptism in a river - all very common sights in this country. Now if a faith healer claims to cure a malady, when in fact he doesn't, that's just plain fraud.

[drm604]

44. And, if you'll reread the OP you'll see that that is what happened here.

A man was convinced to give up his anti-psychotic medication and ended up in the hospital. He was fortunate to end up in the hospital because it could have been much worse.

[pegleg]

46. Consider me humbled.

[drm604]

49. Don't take it personal, and welcome to DU!

People like to argue around here but it's not necessarily personal.

Once or twice I've been guilty of just skimming the OP and missing the main point.

[fascisthunter]

50. .

glad you reconsidered

[madfloridian]

38. Oh, wait, now. Bigotry? That's a whole other matter.

I consider that a personal attack.

[Marrah_G]

35. The difference is:

The Shaman or Priestess/Priest is not telling the sick person to stop treatment and the Shaman or Priestess/Priest is not getting rich. The Shaman or Priestess/Priest are not gathering hundreds into tents, asking them for donations and performing 3 second smack downs while professing the client is cured.

If they are, then they are charlatans just like this guy.

(Within my Tradition of Wicca there is indeed a rule (law) against accepting money- because this brings about greed, which in turn corrupts the Priestess/Priest and causes them to harm others.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. If it works for some, great.

Too bad it doesn't work for anybody.

Christian zealotry, NA shamanism, or new age Wiccanism are fine, presuming they don't attempt to treat actual medical conditions.

[fascisthunter]

51. or work as Pharmacists just to deny folks birth control pills

[Bill McBlueState]

48. you should visit the health forum

Skeptical DUers are eager to criticize any form of quackery, eastern OR western.

[ismnotwasm]

52. True to a point

But in my experience, these Evangelicals are no more and no less than criminals. I used to work in long term care. I had a Multiple Sclerosis patient, young, and already a partial quad. He was on Medicaid, but that didn't stop Benny Hinn from sending him requests for donations. It didn't stop fundie church he attended from accepting tithes, while it's deluded members would come over and pray for his cure. It's a bit longer story, but lets say it was cruelty beyond belief.



I've observed or taken place in Native American ceremonies in the past. I didn't see requests for money. Quite the opposite. I don't know anything about Wiccans, but I think it's disingenuous to compare either to a large, well organized religion in the business of making money through deception.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. "Faith is believing something you know ain't so." Mark Twain

[bongbong]

45. Real reason for their worry...

From the story:

"A recent article quoted several ministers here who are really getting concerned at the international attention this guy is drawing."

The only reason the other hucksters and Elmer Gantry types are upset is that this charlatan is CLEANING OUT THE SUCKERS. The suckers won't have any money left to help out other evangelists with their necessary expenses, like making sure the leases on their German car fleets are paid.

Obligatory joke: Do you know what the pastor said when he heard the details of Buddhism?
Answer: Only religions with a hell are worth a damn!

[RedLetterRev]

47. The next time anyone, anywhere in the US

sees a Dervish, or a Wiccan, or a Hindu, or anything other than a charismatic wackogelical preying upon crowds of thousands or even tens of thousands at a time, complete with bands, light-shows, sound-effects and raking in millions in cash, you just haul off and let me know. Please, I beg of you. We seem to have a great wealth, even an embarrassment of riches in the latter and a complete dearth of any of the former. Moreover, the charismatic wackogelicals would be absolutely in hysterics over the competition.

So it's not like we're running around looking for exceedingly rara aves in born-again snake-oil salesmen. They're everywhere, like a bad rash. Any one of us can walk out our front doors, proceed to the middle of the street, turn around blindfolded five times, throw a stick and hit one. It has become a national sickness.

I have yet to see a single Dervish, Wiccan, Hindu or any other sort of tent-meeting in the US drawing tens of thousands of adoring fans, willing to buy their way into heaven by makin' it rain all over some bellowing boob with a handful of stick 'em up and a mouthful of hellfire and brimstone. So let's not pretend that they're even on the same level of obscenity.

People who should know better are throwing obscene amounts of cash for a very few people who aren't willing to hold an honest job to enable such to live in huge mansions, drive hideously expensive vehicles, put on exceedingly expensive productions, while those who are throwing the cash are betting a holy lottery whilst eating little more than cat food to get there.

And don't get smart with my handle -- I'm a wedding/union officiant (this is where English majors go to die). I bust my arse at three jobs; one makes a living (information technology) and two earn the gas money to get there. I have as little to do with organized religion as I possibly can, for all the reasons cited in paragraph 1 above. Moi? Born again? I was born perfectly fine the first go-round.

[Hannah Bell]

53. revival flourishes in hard times or times of rapid change.

[RedLetterRev]

54. I'm certainly in the wrong business to get rich.

I'm a glorified clerk who's empowered to write and perform ceremonies, offer a particular and specialized sort of professional service as a member of a professional organization, offered to anyone regardless of affiliation, colors, creeds, orientations or paths, all for a one-time, very, very small fee. I basically cover my gas and travel time. But I love creative writing; I love celebrating love wherever it's found and whatever wonderful forms it finds itself.

Best of all, I can put head to pillow and sleep easily at night. I doubt the snake-oil profits, er, prophets can claim the same. Hell on earth for them must be always looking over their shoulders.

I'll leave off with two thoughts from a man much wiser than me, one Robert Anson Heinlien:

The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it. (Lazarus Long, Time enough for Love, by Robert Heinlein)

and

When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you may not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. (Robert Heinlein)

[Solly Mack]

56. True