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Man shoots, kills two, gets off scott free. This can only happen in Texas

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:22 PM
Original message
Man shoots, kills two, gets off scott free. This can only happen in Texas
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/30/burglary.shooting.a...


.....
Joe Horn, 61, shot the two men in November after he saw them crawling out the windows of a neighbor's house in the Houston suburb of Pasadena.

Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

"The message we're trying to send today is the criminal justice system works," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson said.

....

The two Horn suspected of committing burglary, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.



Man takes law into his own hands, law says it's OK. This man ought to be charged and convicted with first degree murder, but there you go.

I'm not at all surprised that the two victims were not white.
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geek_sabre Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. how many threads on the same topic do we need?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
92. 26.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. If they were white, the law WOULD give two shits about them.
And this guy would've gotten nailed.
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pt22 Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Those Magic Eight Balls are magnificent.
...
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
69. You don't need a magic 8 ball to know how this country works.
Just need to be able to observe, have a sense of history, and common sense.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
77. The real magic 8 ball in this case...
...is the one that several people on this board think the shooter should have used to determine that these guys were in fact just going to rob the house and not kill anyone.
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
81. Exactly. "Y'all is just another n****ger what needs a good whoopin, Texas-style, boy". nt
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
96. No. That's incorrect. In Texas the law is that you can shoot someone breaking into your home.
The only question about the case is was does it count if you're watching the home for another. If they were white it would've been upheld as well.

It's a law that's taken very seriously here.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. i didn't know that they
were not white. they were people and this guy was "trigger happy".
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That's an odd comment. What do you base that on?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. I don't memorize posters, I judge each post on its own. This looked like a legit complaint to me.
I'm still wondering what you are basing calling the OP a hypocrite on...
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. Agreed
Glad that someone else saw through this poster as well.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
98. "Whining" - another piece of the puzzle.
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. The guy shot 2 people IN THE BACK when they were on his NEIGHBOR'S property
Doesn't take a genius to figure out that this should be illegal. He decided to give judge, jury and executioner in carrying out the death sentence for unarmed burglary of a residence.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
116. Yeah, "in the back"
We'd never see this on "Bonanza" or "Gunsmoke"

:sarcasm:

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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
132. they were shot, and died, on Horn's property,
witnessed by a LEO who testified to the grand jury after having declined to arrest Mr. Horn on the scene.

Grand Jury says clean shoot. You can disagree, but that's the decision.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
93. Holy trolly, what kind of racist idiocy is that?
Edited on Tue Jul-01-08 01:36 AM by Bluebear
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. But are you suprised that the 2 "victims" had criminal pasts?
n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yep, bastards had it comin'.
*nudge* *wink* :puke:
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Honest Judge, they needed killin'! n/t
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pt22 Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Maybe we should publish a "visitor's guide" for illegal aliens.
Somewhere in there maybe mention that your chance of being shot will be greatly minimized if you refrain from breaking into people's houses and robbing them.

What do you think?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Absolutely, tell them they 1) Might get shot in the back by a coward
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 09:10 PM by wtmusic
2) Penalty for burglary is death without a trial
3) Don't expect equal treatment if you're poor and brown

Yep, that'll larn the fuckers.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
82. Yeah. It's another good reason not to break into houses. nt
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #82
121. It's good to know you support the death penalty for burglary.
What else do you support the death penalty for? Tax evasion? Perhaps the white collar crime that bilks billions from Americans every year? Or just this instance that involved shooting immigrants who were running away?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #121
125. I don't support the death penalty for any crime, actually
This was not a judicial killing; I'm opposed to judicial killings. This was a case of three dumb guys who all did stuff they shouldn't have, and two of them ended up dead.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. So what should become of the one who lived?
Seems to me that 2 of the stupid guys got the ultimate punishment. And you're content for the third to get away scott free.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. I could see maybe man 3. Maybe
But I also don't know Texas homicide law very well (states define the types of manslaughter differently). IMO a murder charge is out of the question here (though ironically if one had lived, he would be liable for a felony murder charge against the other one).

People who rob houses and stores get killed. It's an occupational hazard. I'm not singing praises of the people who pull the triggers; I'm just stating a fact. And the law in general gives a lot of leeway to people who feel threatened by someone they observed committing a crime, particularly (as in this case) on their own property.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #121
145. my 2 cents, sorry they got killed, but every occupation has a down
side. now if the two guy's were just out walking down the street and got killed I could understand the big freak out. but if you go and commit a crime like breaking into someone's house and get a cap busted in your ass, well there you go.

Me personally I haven't owned a gun in my short 48 years on this planet, but I damned sure have been thinking about getting one lately.

and yeah I have two son's that I love dearly but if they got killed in the commission of a crime like robbery, or burglary well I would just have to hope that they didn't suffer.
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
83. Sounds like that Texan who shot & killed a Repo man right out his upper story window. He walked too.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I was waiting for this post
I'm somewhat dismayed that it happened so fast.

Yes, they are victims. They were murdered by a trigger happy gun nut. Your putting the word in quotes speaks volumes about you.

Second, what relevance does any alleged criminal past have in this case? I'd love to hear your explanation.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Life is a series of choices, risks and rewards
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 08:20 PM by ben_meyers
One of the rewards of a criminal lifestyle is the accumulation of possessions, one of the risks is that someone might blow your ass off with a shotgun.

I guess these 2 made the wrong life choices.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. You could say the same thing about them negra slaves
who got uppity. Made the wrong choices, an got their asses whipped.

Whoo ha. I think I'm done with this sick ass thread. :puke:
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
85. So in AZ stolen property is worth more then two human lives, shot for nothing? YIKES!!!
Oh well, thats where McSham is from so it figures.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #85
103. You do realize this happened in Texas, no? N/T
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
53. Criminal past? Who cares! What about criminal present?
You know, stealing shit that somebody else worked hard for because being a thief beats getting a real job.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
134. they were victimizing someone else at the time
alleged criminal past does not come into play - current criminal activities got them killed. I'll not get into "deserved it" or not, but B&E/home invasion is not a "job" that comes without risks.

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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
155. What evidence have you seen that horn was a "gun nut"?
He didn't use an "assault weapon", didn't even use a handgun.


He used a shotgun.

What is it that indicated to you that he was a so called "gun nut"?

For all the information I have read about him, he could just as easily have wanted to ban "assault weapons" and/or handguns.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. I'm amazed the murderer had time to find out their criminal pasts before murdering them.
:shrug: He must be that guy from National Treasure who can hack into police records that quickly.

Excuse me while I return to Democratic Underground. I must have wandered into some board for hate-filled, anti-Constitutional bigots.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. No shit.
Throw me a line. :scared:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
59. Most criminals are recidivists...
if you see someone committing a violent crime by that action alone you could make a pretty accurate conclusion that they have a criminal background.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #59
75. So the murderer is likely to murder again, since he won't be imprisoned. nice. nt
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #59
89. This burglary wasn't a violent crime. No one was in that house they stole from. Bubba Joe made a
big issue on it with the 911 operator and the rest is history. He was TOLD not to get involved, NOT to go outside, but he did because he wanted to be a big shot down at the beer tavern.

Just another southern "good-old boy" who knew he would walk since he "only" killed two non-whites.

Texas justice ? :puke:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #89
95. by threatening Joe when he confronted them...
that makes it a violent crime.
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #30
79. He's from Texas" "We is always right down heh in the lone star state" dontcha know..
just another gun toting bubba. We got lots of them here in GA too.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
88. In fairness, it was their criminal present that concerned him
you know, the fact that they had just broken into his neighbor's house, and then came into his yard after he warned them off.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #88
106. I understand that you're all for gunowner's rights and all...
I read alot of your stuff in the gun forum. But really, you have to be careful not to let your opinions on gun rights morph into an endorsement of vigilante justice. In my opinion, that just gives us twice as many criminals. The man who shot these burglars is now a criminal, no matter how that grand jury voted. People have cited the recidivism rate of criminals. Do you think that this man who got away with murder won't do it again?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. How little you know about my opinion
I don't like the TX and FL laws, personally, because I do think that a shooter should face a higher level of scrutiny than either state gives them.

Mostly, as I said above, I'm just sad that Ortiz and Torres decided their lives were worth less than some property.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. That's convoluted thinking and blaming the victims.
Ortiz and Torres were guilty of burglary; good ole' Joe is guilty of murder. The court system would have dealt with Ortiz and Torres, but your buddy acted as jury and executioner. Nowhere in the constitution is that valid. "Joe" confronted them first; he was the aggressor.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. Oh, I see
I missed the part where he went to their neighborhood and broke into people's houses. That makes more sense.

If you feel confident that someone breaking into a house is just going to steal stuff, that's your issue.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Now you're just knee-jerking and reacting emotionally.
I'll let you come back to your senses for awhile. No sense in trying to communicate with someone who is not thinking straight.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Not at all
Edited on Tue Jul-01-08 08:27 AM by dmesg
As I said, I think the Texas law doesn't provide strict enough scrutiny to the shooter in this situation. As far as I can tell, we agree on that.

What I won't do is pretend that anyone but Torres and Ortiz made the decision that their lives were worth less than somebody's property. Horn didn't decide that. Texas didn't decide that. Torres and Ortiz did.

I also imagine that if the shooter had also been dark-skinned, nobody would have ever heard about this story, and that bugs me.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #109
137. Burglary often results in the burglars getting shot.
So they did assume the risk of death by breaking into someone else's house. That's not to say that Mr. Horn was right, I wasn't there so I can't say.

David
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hey, don't you have a thread about your other pet topic to visit?
You started an incredibly simple minded capital punishment screed a couple of days ago...and never came back to it.
Such behavior makes one appear to be a...troll.
Just saying.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Pet topic?
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 07:58 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
Two people are murdered, the murderer is not punished, and you have nothing to say except to bring up another thread I started days ago? Why should I "come back" to it? I said all I had to say in my OP and nobody was able to give a valid rebuttal because it was bullet proof.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Well, the legal system has concluded that they were not murdered...
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 09:13 PM by mitchum
and "murder" IS a legal term (despite what all of you emotional types wish that the word meant)
You can say that "their deaths were appalling", "they were brutally killed", etc, but you really shouldn't be be so sloppy with words (whether you use them in boldface or not)
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm sure the two gentlemen considered that occupational hazard before...
embarking upon their careers.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. No a bunch of idiots on a grand jury decided that.
Now a murderer is walking the streets. He shot them IN THE BACK as they were running away. That is the very definition of cowardice. This piece of shit should be in fucking jail right now.

This is NOT justice. I guess if you are white, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want as long as your victims are minorities.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. That "bunch of idiots" is part of the legal system
Geezus, it's like trying to explain something to preschoolers...
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
141. And the cowards hide behind highly artificial definitions...
...conveniently losing any reasonable sense of right and wrong. Not unlike a certain Administration I could name.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
146. Wasn't the owner of the house that was robbed Vietnamees? nt
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
113. Yes, I agree. lynrd_skynrd's OP was bullet proof. nt
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. The names appear to be Hispanice and if so, they are white. See
Overview of Race and Hispanic Origin

"White refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples
of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who
indicated their race or races as White or wrote in entries such as
Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish."
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sl8 Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Might want to look at that link again.
Footnote 2:

"Hispanics may be of any race. The terms
Hispanic and Latino are used interchangeably
in this report."

and on page 10:

"Nearly half (48 percent) of
Hispanics reported only White,
while approximately 42 percent
reported only Some other race,
when responding to the question
on race (see Table 10)."
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I'm very familiar with the various definitions. The names suggest either Spanish ancestry meaning
white or ancestors indigenous to the Americas.

Nothing suggests they were black as defined in the census.

Have a nice evening, :hi:
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. Take a look at their photos. Do they look white to you?
They were hispanics, but could be easily confused for blacks.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #39
76. Hispanics can be black, white, native american, or asian/pacific islander
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
105. My point is people often erroneously believe that people of spanish descent called hispanic as a
broad term are not white when in fact the census does identify them as white.

Have a nice day, :hi:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. Texas, White guy kills two brown guys. Gets away with murder. Surprised? n/t
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. Texas. Man commits act well within the law. No murder. nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Point made. n/t
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georgia lass Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
84. Nope! nt
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Headline from the Sydney Morning Herald: "I'm going to shoot them"
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 08:01 PM by depakid


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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Man shot and killed two unarmed guys. Shot one of them in the back.

Back in the Wild West they called that Bushwackin
and you got hung for it. Hell you got hung for drawin
on a man first and shootin him. Least ways that's what
Roy Rogers taught me.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
97. Roy Rogers lied. You're allowed to shoot anyone on your property anywhere.
I most likely would not shoot someone going 'into' my house while I was outside it unless they were armed and my loved ones were inside. But if someone breaks into my house and sexually assaults me I'm happy that I don't have to wonder if it's okay to shoot them when their back is turned.

This is taking it too far, but it well within the law.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #97
130. Well, it's not quite that
IANAL, but as I understand the castle law in TX it changes the requirements for a positive claim of self-defense if the homicide (or battery) happened on your property or in your car: in that situation someone is presumed to have acted in self-defense without evidence to the contrary.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. They were in his yard and one ran towards Horn before he was shot
While he should have stayed inside, it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5864151.html

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. The other one was running backward, I suppose.
Could be. :crazy:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. No
but it was all at close range - he may have turned once his buddy was shot. The point is we don't know how quickly he turned or how close he really was.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Read the article
Better yet, watch the news and hear the audio of the 911 call.

He told the 911 operator that he was going to kill them, and then he did. That's called premeditated murder.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. He didn't shoot until they entered his yard and ignored a warning
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 10:07 PM by hack89
to stop. He felt threatened. Why do ordinary people have to defer to criminals? Why do we have to passively accept the role of prey?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #44
126. What warning did Horn provide for his prey?
What warning did they ignore before turning around to run?
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. I guess they picked the wrong house to rob...
:shrug:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. I have no problem with it, those two fuckers....
wont be committing any more crimes again and IMO thats a good thing.

We should would all be better off if we would get to know all of the people in our own neighborhoods and if we would all be willing to stand up and protect each other from crime. Its all about what kind of world you want to live in I would rather living in one where criminals are routinely confronted and killed by average citizens rather that live in a world where people just keep their heads down and try to ignore whats going on around them. I feel safer for my family when people are willing to act to protect those around them.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You must be a very frightened.
Do you hide in the closet all day trembling? Agoraphobic? Itchy trigger finger?

Just trying to get inside the mind of someone who thinks it's ok to shoot a burglar in the back.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I can tell you that I don't hide in any closets or tremble! I bet there
are some, in Tx. at least, that are having second thoughts about the value of burglarizing someone's house though!
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Not at all.
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 10:32 PM by Jack_DeLeon
I enjoy being outside, althought work keeps me inside alot. I like going over to my family's house and walking their dogs around the block. Its not just during the day I actually prefer to walk them at night since this is Texas, its cooler.

I think anyone who is afraid to go outside and walk around in their own neighborhoods arent truly free. While walking I occasionally encounter stray dogs, I usually just scare them away, if I think they belong to someone in the neighborhood I'll go talk to the owner about it. Had to talk to two different owners this past year but they finally tied them up. I think about the kinds of things I dont want my grandmother dealing with when she walks the dogs and I try to ensure that she wont have any problems.

People should be free to travel without having to worry. I wouldnt want any criminals accosting my grandmother while I'm not around, so while it would be unlikely these two would have I think its definitely a good thing that that now they definitely cant.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
70. So perceived freedom from worry is worth killing someone over?
Isn't that kinda like invading Iraq because we thought Saddam *might* have weapons, but then we killed a million of his people along with him, and it's biting us in the ass now?

Or is it the fundamental injustice of it that drives you into a helpless rage?

Do you have material possessions that are worth more than a human life?

Or maybe you think burglars should be hanged, like cow rustlers were once. Help me here. :shrug:

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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Not perceived freedom, actual freedom...
from to travel about unaccosted, when people arent free to walk around their own neighborhoods they arent free. Some people in this country arent free. In some places the people living in those neighborhoods have brought it on themselves by not standing up for what is right when they could have, or by themselves supporting those who would take away effect means of self defense away from themselves. I do what I can to make sure those kinds of things dont happen where I live. I value my freedom and the freedom of those around me.

Do you have material possessions that are worth more than a human life?

If I'm able to stop someone from taking or destroying my property or the property of those I care about I would do so. Its not that I value it over a human life, but I do value what it represents over the life of someone who would deprive others of their rights.

If you are like most people you have a job, you spend a good portion of your waking life there, you give up time with your friends and family so that you can have the money to support them, pay your bills, do the things you want. Money is only worth what it costs you to earn it, which is why rich people value money less that poorer people because we work harder for our money than rich people do. I give up more of my life to earn $100 than some corporate CEO. So when someone steals something from me its worth more to me than the money I spent on it, its worth the amount of my life that I gave up to earn that.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #72
120. Just so we understand each other here
you're for giving burglars the death penalty?

(be forewarned, I will cut through any attempts at semantic evasion like a knife).
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #70
104. That's the crucial question
Do you have material possessions that are worth more than a human life?

Unfortunately, for reasons that may ultimately be mysterious, Torres and Ortiz decided their lives were worth less than some material possessions. I am sad that they decided that, but they are the ones who made that misjudgment, not Horn.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #104
119. It never fails to amaze me
the logical gymnastics that people engage in to justify their own irrational views.

"Torres and Ortiz decided their lives were worth less than some material possessions". I'm sure that's *just* what they were thinking.

I've held a spotlight to your own conviction that burglars should be given the death penalty, and you can't deal with it.

Funny, actually.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #119
124. Where do you get the idea that I think Horn deserves praise?
There's a lot of assumption and projection going on in this thread. I think Horn acted pretty stupidly and escalated a burglary to a double homicide. But I don't think he's a murderer, and I don't think the responsibility ultimately lies anywhere but at Torres's and Ortiz's feet.

And I reiterate that my main discomfort with this case is that if this had happened in a black or hispanic neighborhood, we never even would have heard of this.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Hope you never speed.
Because if you do, you're a criminal, and by your words you should be confronted and killed.

Hope you never do anything in any shade of violation of the law lest some great white hope come forward and execute you.

Sound stupid yet? It should.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Yep, you sound stupid...
there is a difference between a victimless crime that is based on an arbitrary law and a crime that actually violates the rights of a person.

The crime of theft actually victimizes an individual and deprives them of their rights.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Nope.
You said "criminals". No asides.

Your delight in the killing over property is suspicious at best. "Victimless crime" is subjective according to your opinion.

Thanks, but let me know who elected you God.

Mark.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. We are all possess free will...
given to us by God if you believe in that.

As such we are all our own gods within the confines of this world. We all make our own decisions and do what we each individually think is right.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. All your decisions are belong to us.
Sound about right?

What a selfish fucking thing to say. What we "think" is right. Fucking selfish.

Look it up.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. So you dont do what you think is right?
Edited on Tue Jul-01-08 12:20 AM by Jack_DeLeon
You do what others tell you is right? You dont make your own decisions based on what you have experienced and learned?
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
78. But the murderer with the shotgun might.
He shot two unarmed men in the back as they were fleeing his yard. Even in Texas that's illegal. To justify deadly force, the culprits either have to be in your house, or you have to have a legitimate fear for your life. Impossible to argue that two men running away from you were a mortal threat.

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
32. I don't think skin color had anything to do with it! The laws in Tx changed
Sept. 1st 2007, and Joe Horn was abiding by the law. When someone breaks the law, they should be willing face the consequences if they are caught. I'm sure I could make some much needed money by dealing MJ, but I'm not willing to do it because I KNOW I'd be the dummy who got caught! You may not agree with all the penalties, but that's a different argument!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. I don't GAS about race! If somebody is trying to steal my things
or my neighbor's things, they get punished! Why do you always think anger at people who break the laws is based upon race? Of course there is racism, and although it's lessened over the years, it still exists. That doesn't mean that criminals are only punished if they have darker skin color! I've been responsible for the conviction of several criminals, and all but one were white. It's sad that you seem to see everything through jaded glasses.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Wow Only One White Criminal? Wow !
Keep bustin those darkies napi! Jaded glasses? Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #73
110. You misread my statement AGAIN! I said all were white except
for ONE who was from somewhere in the middle east.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #73
136. God You're A Nasty One. Disgusting Almost. Could Work On Your Comprehension Skills Too.
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Sounds like you are in favor of the Jim Crow Laws.
Shoot anyone darker than you look.

:grr:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I'd have no problem with shooting whiteboys...
if they violated the rights of myself or the people I care about. I'm obviously a racist right. :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
55. And people who think Joe is a murderer...
... is precisely how RePukes label Dems as "bleeding-heart liberals" and get away with it.

Joe was lucky they weren't armed themselves, but they could have easily have been. If I were in his position, I would have done the same thing. And if someone was robbing my place, I sure as Hell would give my neighbor a pat on the back if they did the same thing Joe did too. The two punks are criminals and were lucky they didn't meet a worse fate (like becoming doggy-chow).
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. I don't see how calling a spade a spade in this instance makes you a "bleeding heart".
There are many people on this site who would laugh hysterically at bestowing that appellation on me. This guy killed two people, cold bloodedly shooting them in the back, who posed zero threat to him. That's murder. They didn't even rob him and they may not have even seen him. Even I would object to summarily executing convicted burglars. This wasn't self-defense or protecting your home. There is nothing else to call it but murder. Besides, who gives a fuck what the asshole right wingers say about us anyway? What the hell do they know? These are people who still support the Chimp after all. Fuck them and their opinions. What Joe did, in my opinion, is worthy of a death sentence, not praise.
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #65
99. So you're a wimp.
So if two people broke into your home, neither one *brandishing* a weapon, you'd just let them ransack your place?
On that tangent, if two people broke into your neighbor's home, you don't see either one *brandishing* a weapon, you'd just let them ransack their place? Some neighbor you are. You say they posed no threat, but how can you be sure?

You know, that's the question you now must answer: How can you be sure intruders pose no threat?
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. I Thought The Sensible Thing Is To Just Call The Police
And let whatever semblance of a justice system we have in this country run its course. Lest you'd like someone taking a gun to Ayu's back for stealing that taiyaki.
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opiate69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. "Bleeding-heart liberal"...
If wanting to ensure that "equal protection under the law" (you know, one of those annoying "principals" that allegedly make this country such a beacon of goodness) is more than just empty sloganeering makes a bunch of ignorant, slack-jawed fucksticks want to call me a "bleeding heart liberal" like it's a bad thing, well, they can all kiss my fat, lilly-white ass, and I'll wear the label with the utmost pride.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
56. This guy committed outright murder. He should be executed.
These guys didn't break into his house and all they were doing was robbing the neighbor. A crime for sure but not a capital crime even by my measure. Dude was already on the phone with the cops and the two perps would have been caught forthwith. Then he shoots them in the back which indicates they were either running away or completely unaware of his presence. That, to me, is murder, which is a capital crime and this guy should be executed for it. Texas is fucked up.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. "Murder" is a legally defined act.
By law what this man did is not murder, not by any stretch, especially capital murder worthy of an execution.

You may not like the law, but that doesn't change the fact that legally what Horn did was not murder.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
117. Not being charged with a crime is not the legal (or moral, logical) equivalent
of that crime not being committed.

In other words, a failure to prosecute is not the equivalent of an acquittal.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. I'm glad you are so tight with your neighbors...
you would allow them to be victimized when you could have done something about it.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. If, like "Hero Joe", I was on the phone with the cops at the time I would have helped immeasurably.
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 11:43 PM by MrSlayer
By giving full descriptions and maybe even taking a few pictures. I would not have killed two people over my neighbor's XBox, no matter how much I like them. If they were in my house, I would have killed them. There's a huge difference.


Edit: missed an apostrophe.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #68
115. Two criminals seeing you take their picture
ensures that you will be their next victim. Your fate will be in their bloody hands.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #115
143. They wouldn't have to see me doing it.
Just as they didn't have to see this guy. He didn't have to involve himself at all other than calling the police. I've heard the 911 call and this dude just wanted to kill the robbers. In fact he was so up on the new law that it seems to me that he was just looking for an excuse to kill anyone he could. This is not a good guy or a hero.
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
122. "all they were doing was robbing the neighbor"
I'm damn glad you aren't MY neighbor. Two lowlifes attempt to break & enter a families home to steal their hard earned possessions. When Mr. Horn attempts to stop them they get confrontational (read the story). Mr.Horn then shoots the criminals. The only crime in this instance is two criminals valuing their lives less than the property they were attempting to steal.
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geek_sabre Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
133. you are
obviously ignorant of the facts of the case.

They saw him, moved towards him onto his property after he said "freeze," both were shot on his property. This, according to the plain clothed cop who witnessed the whole thing. They were certainly aware of his presence.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
63. I was hoping someone would post this on DU.
Chron.com's comment section is littered with pro-murdering Joe Horn defenders.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Thanks for the link, gun nut! nt
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
87. Why the hell would you post that crap?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #66
102. um... this is a political message board, not a marketing site.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
80. I'm sorry, but I can't muster up much sympathy for the two thugs...
Granted I think he was at the least stretching the self-defense law and at worse, possibly guilty of manslaughter... regardless, alot more good people die in the world that my sympathy is reserved for.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #80
94. Funny, my sympathy doesn't have a quota. How do you gauge yours?
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
86. It's disgusting.
Truly disgusting.

:puke:
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
90. Yeah, he should have gotten charged with something
By all the accounts that I've read I think he way overstepped his bounds. He nor anybody else was in immediate danger of death or injury, and they weren't stealing his stuff or in his house.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
91. This is why burgulary is as hazardous as running into oncoming traffic
Putting myself in Horn's situation I would be scared shitless even if they were running away. Yes he was certainly wrong, but I certainly would not want to see him convicted of murder.

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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
101. So, if'n y'see any Mezzicans hangin' 'round yer nayborhood, jes' blow 'em away! An' if'n they run...
Shoot 'em in the back, sev'rul times, jus' t' make sure -- ain't no Mezzican can be too dayd, y'know? 'Cause ya jes' know they're a-standing there, thankin' 'bout stealin' yer raydio, yer bowling ball, yer open bag a' cheeze-puffs. And whas' a few less Mezzicans, anyways? What ever happen'd t' Murikans, fer shee-it's sake? Hol' on now -- *Blam* *Blam* *Blam*

Hot dammy, Ah got me one, Gud-dimmit! Ah bagged me 'nother chili-choker! Jus' stack 'em over there on the pile. And brang me 'nother sixer of Lone Star, you sumbitch!

**Haaawk -- ptooie!**
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
108. The guy wanted to play John Wayne
Edited on Tue Jul-01-08 08:19 AM by LanternWaste
The guy wanted to play John Wayne and the law back him up.

May God have mercy on his poor, miserable excuse for a soul...
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
118. Texas has a long history of lynching. This is just a new version.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
123. A constructive suggestion for everyone who thinks there has been a miscarriage of justice!
If you believe any of the following:

- Joe Horn lacked the moral justification needed for shooting those men, and deserves punishment for his actions,

- The current laws of the state of Texas concerning deadly force fail to afford adequate protection for people who are confronted by armed citizens who believe that a crime has occurred or is in progress,

- The grand jury and/or DA in this case misinterpreted the laws of the state of Texas and allowed a guilty man to walk,

- The shooting resulted from racism rather than a color-blind desire to stop a crime,

Call or write your representatives in Congress and demand that the federal government pursue a federal civil rights lawsuit against Joe Horn.

Federal civil rights actions have defeated segregation and brought murderers to justice many times. They're still pursuing murderers from the 1960s, who got off because they were supported by their communities and states were unable to prosecute.

All this "is so" and "is not" discussion can never make a difference.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
129. He's a murderer...plain and simple. What if it was YOUR teenager
who was doing something stupid like stealing some stuff from a house? Ok...yeah...go ahead and kill them. Unbelievable.
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Dimensio0 Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #129
139. So you believe that the consequences of criminal action
are the responsibility and fault of the victims of the crime? Fascinating. Can you please explain the rationale behind such a position?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #129
140. My teenagers would know that breaking into a house is like running into oncoming traffic
Because there's a good chance that the owner will have a gun and will shoot you.

What Horn did was wrong but manslaughter is a far easier sell than murder in this case. If two guys were breaking into my next door neighbor's house I would be scared shitless and might do something in the heat of the moment I wouldn't otherwise do. The phone call isn't good enough evidence for a murder conviction. I do think he should be tried for manslaughter, though.

That said, if they had broken into his house, he would've been well within his legal rights to shoot them without consequences. Which, again, is why breaking into a house is as hazardous and stupid as running into traffic.


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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
131. What would happen to someone who shot Cindi McCain
for trying to steal drugs from them?
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geek_sabre Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
135. Bet Kitty Genovese wishes she had Joe Horn as a neighbor
Edited on Tue Jul-01-08 11:16 AM by delaware97
That people are so self-absorbed and trusting in LE (which has no legal responsibility to swoop in and save your life) is why women even today can be raped in broad daylight in the middle of the street, and none of the dozens of passersby will stop to defend her. Threat of arrest and prison is obviously not enough to deter crime. From what I hear, there haven't been any break-ins in Horn's neighborhood since this incident.

I really hope we don't eliminate the right to self-defense like they have in Britain. Bystanders are either forbidden or too scared (not sure if its law) to come to someone's defense, for fear that they themselves will be punished. When elderly women can be arrested for chasing off a gang of thugs by firing a toy gun for "putting someone in fear with an imitation firearm," your fucked as a society. A right you cannot defend is a right in name only.


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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
138. It could happen anywhere with a decent explanation of self-defense
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
142. Oh, crap -- we're surrounded by Texas here!
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
144. wow
People trust the average American to know when it's appropriate to use deadly force? Cops get hours of training for that. That guy is just lucky that the people he shot were criminals. It could of been some of those "freecyclers" picking up some free stuff that his neighbor left out!
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #144
147. I believe he witnessed them B&E with a crowbar.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think he alluded to it during the 911 call.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
148. you can bet if mr horn was a black man, his ass would be in jail.
if he'd shot a couple white boys, he might not even be alive.

all this vigilante shit is reserved for whitey.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. How do you figure that? n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. If you think an injustice was done based on race, please contact the Civil Rights Division
Edited on Wed Jul-02-08 02:44 PM by slackmaster
Of the US Department of Justice.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crt-home.html
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #148
153. I completely disagree
Edited on Wed Jul-02-08 02:53 PM by dmesg
If this had been a burglary-turned-shooting in a black neighborhood, the media would never have given a shit and LE would have swept it under the rug.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
149. He played out a popular dream and became John Wayne in his own mind.
He played out a popular dream and became John Wayne in his own mind. For an instant, he was the 'rootinest, tootinest, cowboy this side of the Pecos-- ready ta take down any varmints'.

For one moment in time, all the world became black and white, good and evil. He was the Cowboy and they were those "lyin' evil Injuns". For one brief moment.

Then, after that moment passed, two men were dead and the full context of that scenario will haunt him for years to come.

Be careful what you wish for you poor, dumb schmuck.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. I find myself completely unable to read other peoples' minds
How do you do it?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-02-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. Mere supposition on my part
Mere conjecture and supposition on my part.

As far as I know, mind reading is non-existent and hence, I would've imagined even the weakest of minds would have induced that. :shrug:
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