Didnt Mcain kill the POW/MIA search in Vietnam? n/t

[ORDagnabbit]

[Mass]

1. WTF? Do we need to do the same thing the SBVT did?

Leave that to the GOP! And apologies to Democrats that I thought you were a Democrat. Your latest post makes it clear.

[ORDagnabbit]

5. It was Mccain and Kerry who did it. sorry got that part wrong.

http://fredheads.com/index.php?topic=227.0

When, on Nov. 11, 1992, McCain was advised that Dolores Apodaca Alfond, chairwoman of the National Alliance of POW/MIA Families (her pilot brother, Capt. Victor J. Apodaca, is missing in action in North Vietnam), was offering some testimony that was critical of the Senate Committee, he rushed into the room to confront her.
Award winning journalist Sydney Schanberg described the scene. "His face angry and his voice very loud, he accused her of making "allegations ... that are patently and totally false and deceptive." Making a fist, he shook his index finger at her and said she had insulted an emissary to Vietnam sent by President Bush. He said she had insulted other MIA families with her remarks. And then he said, through clenched teeth: "And I am sick and tired of you insulting mine and other people's who happen to have different views than yours."
By this time, tears were running down Alfond's cheeks. She reached into her handbag for a handkerchief. She tried to speak: "The family members have been waiting for years -- years! And now you're shutting down." He kept interrupting her. She tried to say, through tears, that she had issued no insults. He kept talking over her words. He said she was accusing him and others of "some conspiracy without proof, and some cover-up." She said she was merely seeking "some answers. That is what I am asking." He ripped into her for using the word "fiasco." She replied: "The fiasco was the people that stepped out and said we have written the end, the final chapter to Vietnam." "No one said that," he shouted. "No one said what you are saying they said, Ms. Alfond." And then, his face flaming pink, he stalked out of the room, to shouts of disfavor from members of the audience.
McCain took the lead in demanding a U.S. Justice Department investigation of POW/MIA families and activists accusing them of fraud because in some of their fund-raising literature they claimed the U.S. government knowingly left U.S. POWs behind after the Vietnam War and that some remain alive today.

McCain told reporters, "The people who have done these things are not zealots in a good cause. They are the most craven, most cynical and most despicable human beings to ever run a scam." The Justice Department did investigate the POW/MIA families and activists finding NO scams or reasons to charge anyone.

The SPOTLIGHT November 15, 1999
McCain is famous in POW-MIA activist circles for his clashes with those who disagree with his conclusion that no American POW or MIA was left alive in communist hands when he was repatriated by the Hanoi government in 1973.
Perhaps the best example of his crude treatment of the loved ones of still-unaccounted-for POWs and MIAs is illustrated by an incident that occurred in 1996 when the senator's path crossed with a number of POW-MIA family members outside of a hearing room in Washington.
Upon leaving the room, McCain immediately quarreled with family members, who were eager to question him on the issue. Instead of answering their questions, the Arizona senator pushed and shoved them out of his way, nearly toppling the wheelchair of POW-MIA mother Jane Duke Gaylor, whose son, Charles Duke, a civilian worker in Vietnam, is among the same 2,300 American POWs and MIAs still unaccounted for by the communists.
The Duke case file contains sufficient evidence that Duke was a prisoner of the communists, according to Garnet "Bill" Bell, who headed the U.S. government POW-MIA office in Hanoi.
The POW-MIA activists, shocked and horrified by McCain's crude behavior toward Mrs Gaylor, registered their complaints with Senate officials. Mrs Gaylor and her niece, Geannette Jenkins, who was pushing her wheelchair, were advised by Sgt. Dana Sundberg of the Capitol Hill Police to file assault charges against McCain. They declined, fearful of the power of the Arizona senator.

----

Once Kerry/McCain had closed down the search for POW/MIAs, they "normalized" relations with communist Vietnam and got an exclusive billion dollar deal for John Forbes Kerry's cousin, a Forbes (no relation to Steve) and head of Collier, International.

I supported McCain in 2000. But in researching McCain's "best friend in the Senate" JF Kerry, I decided McCain was no better than Kerry on the issue of communist Vietnam. On the issue of Iraq, McCain has been great, but over the horizon we have communist China and on that issue I prefer not to trust McCain.

[Mass]

6. McCain was great on Iraq? Thanks to make clear where you stand. Go back to freerepublic.com

[ORDagnabbit]

10. good god leave the kindergarden attacks at home..been here for a long time and just cause I have a

different opinion than you and ask questions doesnt make me the enemy. grow the hell up.

[Mass]

11. Come on. McCain great on Iraq? Not sure where you stand, but clearly not among progressives.

I could have excused the other part based on ignorance, but this is not even an ignorance. The man wants us there for 100 years.

[ORDagnabbit]

12. where the hell did I say granpa was good on iraq? the man should be committed to an insane asylum!

[Mass]

14. Reread post # 5, last paragraph

On the issue of Iraq, McCain has been great, but over the horizon we have communist China and on that issue I prefer not to trust McCain.

[razors edge]

15. You said he was "Great" on Iraq.

You never said he was good.


"I supported McCain in 2000. But in researching McCain's "best friend in the Senate" JF Kerry, I decided McCain was no better than Kerry on the issue of communist Vietnam. On the issue of Iraq, McCain has been great, but over the horizon we have communist China and on that issue I prefer not to trust McCain."

[ORDagnabbit]

16. its 2008 people....its a quote from the link I sent...sheesh. see people put links and then the

text from the link.

I was trying to show that wacko righties who used to support mccain are unhappy with him on other issues.

[Mass]

17. So you believe that. Sorry, as I said earlier, it is sad. It was a bipartisan effort

signed on by Clinton. McCain got beaten to death by the right because he did that. There are a lot of issues with him (including in his personal life), but this is only one with the extreme right wing and a few POW families who still would like to have some hope 40 years later. I cannot blame them for that, but that does not mean we have to believe them.

BTW. DU offers htmlcodes to show quotes. You may want to use them so that people can differentiate your original thought from your "sources".

[razors edge]

18. Sorry for the misunderstanding but

your post had three paragraphs followed by

--------


Making it look like the final two short paragraphs were your own.

edit:sp

[grantcart]

8. Here is the youtube of the Alfond/McCain exchange

Alfond is a part of a splinter group that refused to accept any facts about the POW/MIA investigations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CazKanlYDg

[ORDagnabbit]

7. just so you dont think I'm looking at wacko sites..heres a great salon.com article

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/01/29/mccain/

Fair or not, the senator has also generated a reputation as being hostile to the families of those Americans still missing. And some of that is probably his fault. A well-known example is his barbed exchange with a witness whose brother went missing in Vietnam. Dolores Apodaca Alfond, who appeared before the Senate committee on Nov. 11, 1992, expressed concern that the committee might shut down without finding all the answers. The famously testy McCain bristled at the suggestion. "I do not denigrate your efforts," he said. "And I am sick and tired of you denigrating mine and many other people who have views different from you." Even he admitted that day that he may have "appeared upset." News clips say McCain left the hearing room that day to the sound of hisses from the audience of around 50 relatives of missing Americans.

Unfortunately, it is possible that the normalization route favored by McCain and Kerry did come at a cost to some of the families of missing Americans. There are still 1,763 Americans missing and unaccounted for from the Vietnam conflict. Based on U.S. government information, the National League of Families, an advocacy group for the families of those Americans, estimates that with full cooperation from the Vietnamese, remains or proof of death could likely be ascertained for half of that number. The United States has formally asked the government in Vietnam for a raft of specific documents -- like results of Vietnamese crash site investigations -- that might shed some light on these. The documents have not been forthcoming. Some experts think this is because there is little upside for the Vietnamese to go out of their way now.

[grantcart]

13. here is the youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CazKanlYDg

The Peoples Republic of Vietnam has provided access to every single site that has been requested and American serviceman have gone through out all of Vietnam to any location they wanted to find even the smallest scraps of remains.


The survival percent and the accounting of POW/MIAs from the Vietnam war is the highest of any major conflict that the United States has been in.

In Korea, for example, the total fatalities was roughly half that of Vietnam 33,686 but its MIA is 300% that of Vietnam 4759 those died in captivity was 2701. The number that died in Vietnam during captivity is only 84.

http://www.angel45-2b.com/statistics.html

[LSparkle]

2. I've heard something like that ... that he was surprisingly unsupportive

Like he really DIDN'T want to get to the bottom of what really
happened to some of those guys ... ???

ON EDIT: I don't know if we want to really re-open that particular
point, but I do think it's legitimate to examine his ENTIRE record
on veterans' issues. This man should NOT be let off the hook for
voting AGAINST THE NEW G.I. BILL ... What else has he voted against
that affected vets?

[grantcart]

3. No there was an exhaustive examination

It contained 20,000 interviews with refugees who hoped they would jump to the front of the line with a sighting.

The Vietnamese fairly early on gave wide access and eventually 100% access to anywhere in the country including examining their records.

The conclusion was that rumors of POWs in Vietnam were based on 1) Sightings of some deserters (who have since returned to the United States,2) sightings of Swedes and Russians working in the area 3) false evidence.

Basically while some fliers will killed by villagers after they landed once they got into the PRV hands they were treated harshly but none were kept back. (The Viet Cong also kept their own prisoners under much harsher conditions simply due to the fact that they had to keep moving).

In the end it was found that the Vietnamese were honest about the prisoners they had. On the other hand there was a small group (I believe the number was about 18) of POWs that were alive and documented to be in the hands of the Laotian government that never came out. (It was thought that they were executed after a particularly lethal bombing raid on Laos).

The people doing the investigating (whom I met and observed) were highly motivated Army types that married Vietnamese wives and spent years searching for evidence. Everyone became convinced that the Vietnamese were truthful.

At the end the Clinton administration concluded that it was time to close the book and also normalize relations with Vietnam. In this one instance McCain assisted the Clinton administration by taking on the small splinter of the POW/MIA community that refused to accept the unanimous verdict of everyone involved. This group believe that there were signs seen from aircraft and triggers on communication devices that could only be done by POWs in Vietnam.

One of the problems is that Perot and other far right critics of Clinton spent millions on 'bounty' for information or 'evidence' that Americans were still in Vietnam and for a while a large and continuous stream of con men traveled in the area selling their evidence back to these critics.

In the final drama there is a Senate committee meeting where McCain defends the decision and the POW/MIA widow charges him with duplicity and impugns those in charge including Gen Vessey. Gen Vessey was President Clinton's personal ambassador on the issue.

The people that are attacking McCain on this issue are related to the swift boat critics and their real target was what they thought was the perfidy of the Clinton administration selling out the interests of the POWs for economic interests and the normalization of ties with Vietnam. McCain, in this instance, was trying to help defend the Clinton administration and assist the reconciliation between Vietnam and the US. Those that are attacking him on this particular issue are far right demagogues that hate Democrats even more.

[AmyCamus]

4. Is OK if I defend Kerry & McCain on this issue?

McCain was a member of the Senate's POW/MIA Committee chaired by John Kerry. They investigated in the early 90s and found there was nothing to the stories that some POWs and MIAs still alive in Vietnam.
McCain didn't "kill" anything.

[1Hippiechick]

9. Video links, if you are interested.....

JOHN MCCAIN, MISSING, PRESUMED DEAD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0

VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST JOHN MCCAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g&feature=rela...

F*CK MCCAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYJPuKWZlVs