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Oh, the Horror! Obama trashes the Constitution!

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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:06 PM
Original message
Oh, the Horror! Obama trashes the Constitution!
I have plum run out of patience with the uproar over FISA. Of all the issues the Democrats have muffed this ranks among the least of their failures. I'm more exercised over matters that this Congress should be addressing... like not having to cast our votes on faith or seeing this country's future squandered on a murderous, colonial adventure.

But what about the 4th Amendment... the rule of law! Isn't that just as important? Yes, but what Obama can do about FISA, irrespective of the bill's final language, would be wholly symbolic. The problem lies with the very nature of a secret court.

FISA HEARING: SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
JULY 28, 2006
"It would be good for Congress for a federal court to make that constitutional judgment. Congress lacks the institutional capacity to make a constitutional judgment of this nature. As a political branch, its members are susceptible, in appearance if not in fact, to the partisan pressures of subservience, by members of the President's party, or hostility, by members of the opposition. While Congress may make broad constitutional judgments in legislating, it has no mechanism for making judgments that require assessment of the details of a particular program. Congressional oversight, while it should continue, is misused when it is asked to bear the weight of such constitutional judgments."--- John Schmidt, former Associate Attorney General of the United States under President Bill Clinton.

"Nevertheless, I reiterate the Administration's willingness to support appropriate legislation that does not restrict the President's ability to collect foreign intelligence necessary for the national security. We need to strike a balance that sacrifices neither our security nor our civil liberties."
--- Jamie Gorelick, Deputy Attorney general in 1994 responding to questions about President Clinton's Executive Order 12949 allowing warrantless physical searches.

"By this logic, noted Kate Martin of the ACLU , "It is also true that torture allows the government to get information it would not otherwise get."

As we see, while Bush's power-grab may seem the more egregious, libertarians like Jonathan Turley had long been up in arms that FISA was a slippery slope. And that proved true.

Since its founding in 1978, the secret court has received 7,539 applications to authorize electronic surveillance within the U.S. In the name of national security, the court has approved all but one of these requests from the Justice Department on behalf of the FBI and the NSA. Each of these decisions was reached in secret, with no published orders, opinions, or public record.

The ACLU had long wanted to litigate FISA but I can guarantee our present Supremes would make matters worse. Consider it's record on cases involving the 4th Amendment in general:

ILLINOIS v. CABBALES (03-923) : Jan 24, 2005 (6-2) A man stopped for speeding had his car sniffed by a drug dog while he was being issued a ticket, was not detained for longer than he normally would have to wait for the dog. Dog alerted on the car, the car was searched and cannabis was found in the trunk. The U.S. Court overturned the Illinois Supreme Court and found: "A dog sniff conducted during a concededly lawful traffic stop that reveals no information other than the location of a substance that no individual has any right to possess does not violate the Fourth Amendment."

BOARD OF EDUCATION OF POTTAWATOMIE COUNTY v. EARLS (01-332) : June 27, 2002 (5-4) Supreme Court ruled that any extracurricular activity is cause for drug testing in public schools.

ATWATER v. LAGO VISTA (99-1408) : April 24, 2001 (5-4) A woman was stopped for not wearing her seatbelt while driving with her children. The police officers "pulled Atwater over, verbally berated her, handcuffed her, placed her in his squad car, and drove her to the local police station, where she was made to remove her shoes, jewelry, and eyeglasses, and empty her pockets. Officers took her 'mug shot' and placed her, alone, in a jail cell for about an hour, after which she was taken before a magistrate and released on bond." Atwater sued, arguing that this type of treatment as unreasonable and therefore a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Souter, writing for the 5-4 majority said that the police may arrest and mistreat them at any time, so long as they have reasonable suspicion that even the smallest infraction has been committed.

FLORIDA v. WHITE (000 U.S. 98-223) : May 17, 1999 (7-2)
Two months after officers observed respondent using his car to deliver cocaine, he was arrested at work on unrelated charges. At that time, the police seized his car without securing a warrant because they believed the car was subject to forfeiture under the Florida Contraband Forfeiture Act (Act). During a subsequent inventory search, the police discovered cocaine in the car. Respondent was then charged with a state drug violation. The Court ruled in another terrible decision that police may seize a car anytime they like if they have probable cause to believe it has ever been involved in any crime.

WYOMING v. HOUGHTON (000 U.S. 98-184) : April 5, 1999 (6-3)
A decision allowing searches of passenger's purse with probable cause against the driver, when the passenger was not holding the purse.

MINNESOTA v. CARTER (000 U.S. 97-1147) : December 1, 1998 (6-3)
The Court made a bizarre ruling that unless guests in a home are staying over night, they have no legitimate expectation of privacy from the spying eyes of police. In this case a policeman peeked through the closed blinds into a private residence in an apartment complex and saw some people bagging white powder. The officer arrested then men as they left the building. The court held that "Any search which may have occurred did not violate their Fourth Amendment rights. Because respondents had no legitimate expectation of privacy, the Court need not decide whether the officer's observation constituted a 'search'." Ugly as hell.

MARYLAND v. WILSON (000 U.S. 98-184) : February 19, 1997
One of the recent decisions by Rehnquists fascist court allowing police to order passengers to exit a vehicles pulled over for traffic stops without even any suspicion of danger, threat, or wrongdoing. See PENNSYLVANIA v. MIMMS

FLORIDA v. BOSTICK (000 U.S. 89-1717) : June 20, 1991 (6-3)
A decision allowing police sweeps of buses which are recognized as "are inconvenient, intrusive, and intimidating." Despite being trapped in his seat at the back of a bus by several officers without any probable cause, the defendant should have known that he was "free to leave" and had the right to deny any and all requests by the police for information and searching his belongings.

OLIVER v. US (466 US 170) : April 17, 1984 (6-3)
In a nightmarish decision going against all reasonable standards of privacy, Reagan's fascist court ruled that police are exempt from private property trespassing restrictions and may search any area of private property, even when there are fences and No Trespassing signs, except for the area immediately around "the home".

MICHIGAN v. LONG (463 U.S. 1032) : July 6, 1983 (6-3)
The court allowed a 'weapons search' of a vehicle to as a means of 'protecting' the officers who had detained a man who had driven into a ditch and appeared intoxicated. The man's car contained a pouch of cannabis and he was arrested. The Supreme Court ruled "The circumstances of this case justified the officers in their reasonable belief that respondent posed a danger if he were permitted to reenter his vehicle. Nor did they act unreasonably in taking preventive measures to ensure that there were no other weapons within respondent's immediate grasp before permitting him to reenter his automobile. The fact that respondent was under the officers' control during the investigative stop does not render unreasonable their belief that he could injure them."

UNITED STATES v. ROSS (456 U.S. 798) : June 1, 1982 (6-3)
A huge and terrible decision by the High Court which explicitly attempted to allow searches of any containers inside any vehicle on the basis of a police officer's assertion of probable cause, totally circumventing the 4th Amendment's warrant requirement. Thurgood Marshall's dissent is extremely good.

NEW YORK v. BELTON (453 U.S. 454) : July 1, 1981 (5-4)
The court allowed an officer to unzip a zipped jacket pocket and remove the contents of the pocket from a jacket left in the backseat of a car after he had arrested the driver and passengers. The court revised the Chimel v. California standard which said that the State was allowed to search those things within immediate reach of someone when arrested. This opinion also attempted to make broad changes by saying that : "Not only may the police search the passenger compartment of the car in such circumstances, they may also examine the contents of any containers found in the passenger compartment. And such a container may be searched whether it is open or closed, since the justification for the search is not that the arrestee has no privacy interest in the container but that the lawful custodial arrest justifies the infringement of any privacy interest the arrestee may have."

RAWLINGS v. KENTUCKY (448 U.S. 98) : June 25, 1980 (7-2)
A case where it is determined that even if a second-party's 4th Amendment rights are abridged and that breach yields evidence against the first person, that the first person has no 'standing' to prevent the use of property improperly searched. Police had a warrant to arrest a person, but found several other people when they arrived at the location. They 'smelled marijuana' and got a second warrant to search the actual house, after which they forced a woman to empty her purse which contained a controlled substance. The defendant admitted the drugs were his. The court ruled that despite the fact that the woman had been improperly searched, resulting in materials which later were used to prosecute the defendant, that the defendant could not exclude the evidence because he had no 4th Amendment protection over someone else's purse. Very bad.

PENNSYLVANIA v. MIMMS (434 U.S. 106) : December 5, 1977 (6-3)
The court allowed an officer to routinely order all people stopped for traffic violations out of their car (and presumably all passengers) without any suspicion or cause.

COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES

By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Sorry, I don't get all in a froth if my candidate for president disdains grand empty gestures.












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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. As I suspected FISA is merely "the outrage of the moment"
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Yes, it is the latest Liberal outrage du jour. I'm sure more will come, they always do.
There are evidently some who would prefer Obama to make the symbolic gesture that might help to lose him the election, rather than be pragmatic about it and win. Yes, they are the only ones who love the Constitution and they are not only noble and self righteous in their perfection, but pure as driven snow as well, willing to tell one and all how they think Obama should do this or that. After all, they know best. The holier-than-thou-ism gets old fast. Let McCain get elected and then you will really hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Hate those 'liberals' doncha? Still got the W '04 sticker on your car?
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. Since you evidently can read, did you even bother to check out my profile?
Or was that too much trouble? Or are you simply one who cannot stand to read an opinion that dares to differ with yours? Am I going to have to turn in my Liberal card because I failed the latest litmus test?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I could care less about you, actually. You are what you type. Not what you proclaim to be.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Evidently you cared enough about me to accuse me of being a Bush supporter.
Well, I've typed more than 4000 posts here. How big of you to pass judgement on me based upon one post with which you disagree. Apparently there is only one accepted point of view on the subject. In your attempt to be the Almighty, maybe you overlooked this bit from here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html


Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper...


You may disagree with me, but you don't have the right to call me a Republican. That's simply the lazy person's and cowardly way of refuting an argument. Fortunately for me I won't have to read any more of your juvenile spoutings ever again.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. The Boston Tea Party was symbolic and to the O.P where do you draw the line to reverse course?
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 03:20 PM by Uncle Joe
But speaking of pragmatism, I know that some of the following suggestions may sound extreme to the holier than thou liberals; who believe they're the only ones in love with the Constitution but they sound pragmatic to me.

I believe we should be pragmatic to the point of putting cameras in every dwelling, that should help eliminate terrorism in it's tracks.

As a pragmatic solution, I believe the prison industry and camera industries could help subsidize the cost as they would profit from the expected increase in prisoners and sales of video bugging equipment.

As another hidden pragmatic benefit this would insure virtually everyone's safety and well being as government could watch us around the clock, if some elderly person falls down and isn't able to get up, the government could call 9/11 for assistance.

I do wonder about Bob Barr though, did he leave the Republican Party and join the Libertarians because he wasn't pragmatic?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Sounds cool to me....
Think how nice it will be to feel so SAFE from
foreign attack.

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. It's like Ben Franklin said
and I'm paraphrasing here "Screw Liberty, I'm afraid, SAFETY means everything to me".

or Patrick Henry

"Give me a Big Brother government to watch over me, or give me Preparation H, for my anus is puckered from fear".

or John Hancock

"Do you really believe King George will read this shit!?"

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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. If it jeopardizes his chances of winning, I'd rather Obama not cast a symbolic vote against FISA.
I don't think it is a difficult concept to grasp. Well, evidently it is to some who believe the only valid opinions are their own.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I would rather Obama issue a substantive vote against or filibuster for two reasons.
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 05:09 PM by Uncle Joe
1. Because it's the Constitutionally right thing to do.

2. I believe it will enhance his chance of winning.

Apparently this does seem to be a difficult concept for some to grasp, maybe they don't believe the Constitution is valid?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. No one seems to get this...
just as they don't seem to grasp that his
stance on the IWR is what netted him the
nomination.

People are looking for a L-E-A-D-E-R.

:hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. It was just another cave in, right? That's all...just like Iraq
Just like selling our country out in trade deals that did not benefit us.

Just like the bankruptcy bill.

Just like women's rights.

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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. When did Democrats sell out women rights?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. You need to look some stuff up.
Under birth control, abortion, etc.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I seem to remember that was under a Republican Congress
What laws are you specifically referring to?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. As you may NOT have expected, your post has nothing to do with the FISA bill.
It is about oversight, or the total lack thereof.

All of the cases you cite ended up in court.

That's how we KNEW they were egregious.

No one will ever know what illegal searches
are going on under the FISA auspices.

And NOW, the known illegal instances can NOT
be prosecuted, because of the immunity clause.

Even John Ashcroft refused to sign on to this.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I explained that. It would end up in the Supreme Court.
And there was NEVER any oversight. That's the point, duh...
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They had to attain a warrant within 10 days of the tap.
Duh.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. From the secret court. Oh, what's the point you won't look at the
situation realistically. The examples I cited of the 4th Amendment being trashed were clear cut insults to the Constitution yet no one gives a shit. Suddenly the general public is going to upset about wiretapping potential "terrorists". Amazing disconnect ...
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. They were even bypassing the "secret court".
THAT'S how bad this is.

No disconnect here.

The disconnect is with your insistence that
the FISA bill is no big deal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Maybe you wouldn't feel so empty if you read the bill
which is not directed at potential terrorists but at all of us.

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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm talking about this as a political issue.
If you don't see how it will be framed by the MSM I can't help you. And why is surveillance so much worse than physical searches? It does not compute.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Because it is happening to us all, all the time, and it will be pervasive.
And there will be no court proceedings to challenge it.

Why are you against speaking out against this.

It was a HUGE issue BEFORE Obama won the nomination.

Maybe you are just late to the party.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. It was a huge issue because the civil libertarians
have been against FISA since Clinton was in office. This is NOT just about Bush. I'm not the one late to the party I hated FISA from the beginning. The point of citing those examples of the 4th Amendment being abridged was because they are far more serious. It's going to take a lot of changes to get it back.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. They are just as serious, but only applied to single individuals.
The fact that the cases even went to court shows
the difference in import.


Tell me again why you think we should shut up
and roll over for the FISA bill....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I don't think you have any help to offer.
Most Americans don't want the government trawling all their communications and the corporate media, who loses audience size every day, is Obama's challenge, regardless of the issue, He seems to be doing just fine with that challenge.

The surveillance this bill makes legal is also better than mass round ups and executions. That's no measure of the public good.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. How does it do that?
Here is the proposed law - where does it target us?

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h6304/text

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The immunity.
They abused the law, as generous and ridiculous as it was.

The telcoms were SPLITTING off all communications to the
feds.

It will never be investigated.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I'm not so sure that provision would withstand legal scrutiny.
The constitution does not allow ex post facto laws.

I don't like that provision but I am not sure how you seek redress. Should the DOJ indict all of the corporate officers? Their defense is that they were acting in compliance with the NSA and the president's executive orders. That is a pretty legitimate defense. Should their be class action suits? The immunity granted is NOT blanket immunity despite what the opponents to the legislation claim.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. No one will have standing to challenge it.
Only Congress.

And we obviously can't expect them to do anything.

According to the OP, we shouldn't even be bitching about it!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Where do you read that no on has standing to challenge?
As I read the proposed law, the actions/surveillance conducted under this law are subject to Congressional review and oversight. Additionally, the law provides for judicial review and, as I said, it does not give blanket immunity.

SEC. 802. PROCEDURES FOR IMPLEMENTING STATUTORY DEFENSES.

‘(a) Requirement for Certification- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a civil action may not lie or be maintained in a Federal or State court against any person for providing assistance to an element of the intelligence community, and shall be promptly dismissed, if the Attorney General certifies to the district court of the United States in which such action is pending that--

‘(1) any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to an order of the court established under section 103(a) directing such assistance;

‘(2) any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to a certification in writing under section 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) or 2709(b) of title 18, United States Code;

‘(3) any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to a directive under section 102(a)(4), 105B(e), as added by section 2 of the Protect America Act of 2007 (Public Law 110-55), or 702(h) directing such assistance;

‘(4) in the case of a covered civil action, the assistance alleged to have been provided by the electronic communication service provider was--

‘(A) in connection with an intelligence activity involving communications that was--

‘(i) authorized by the President during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on January 17, 2007; and

‘(ii) designed to detect or prevent a terrorist attack, or activities in preparation for a terrorist attack, against the United States; and

‘(B) the subject of a written request or directive, or a series of written requests or directives, from the Attorney General or the head of an element of the intelligence community (or the deputy of such person) to the electronic communication service provider indicating that the activity was--

‘(i) authorized by the President; and

‘(ii) determined to be lawful;
or

‘(5) the person did not provide the alleged assistance.

‘(b) Judicial Review-

‘(1) REVIEW OF CERTIFICATIONS- A certification under subsection (a) shall be given effect unless the court finds that such certification is not supported by substantial evidence provided to the court pursuant to this section.

‘(2) SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIALS- In its review of a certification under subsection (a), the court may examine the court order, certification, written request, or directive described in subsection (a) and any relevant court order, certification, written request, or directive submitted pursuant to subsection (d).

‘(c) Limitations on Disclosure- If the Attorney General files a declaration under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code, that disclosure of a certification made pursuant to subsection (a) or the supplemental materials provided pursuant to subsection (b) or (d) would harm the national security of the United States, the court shall--

‘(1) review such certification and the supplemental materials in camera and ex parte; and

‘(2) limit any public disclosure concerning such certification and the supplemental materials, including any public order following such in camera and ex parte review, to a statement as to whether the case is dismissed and a description of the legal standards that govern the order, without disclosing the paragraph of subsection (a) that is the basis for the certification.

‘(d) Role of the Parties- Any plaintiff or defendant in a civil action may submit any relevant court order, certification, written request, or directive to the district court referred to in subsection (a) for review and shall be permitted to participate in the briefing or argument of any legal issue in a judicial proceeding conducted pursuant to this section, but only to the extent that such participation does not require the disclosure of classified information to such party. To the extent that classified information is relevant to the proceeding or would be revealed in the determination of an issue, the court shall review such information in camera and ex parte, and shall issue any part of the court’s written order that would reveal classified information in camera and ex parte and maintain such part under seal.

‘(e) Nondelegation- The authority and duties of the Attorney General under this section shall be performed by the Attorney General (or Acting Attorney General) or the Deputy Attorney General.

‘(f) Appeal- The courts of appeals shall have jurisdiction of appeals from interlocutory orders of the district courts of the United States granting or denying a motion to dismiss or for summary judgment under this section.

‘(g) Removal- A civil action against a person for providing assistance to an element of the intelligence community that is brought in a State court shall be deemed to arise under the Constitution and laws of the United States and shall be removable under section 1441 of title 28, United States Code.

‘(h) Relationship to Other Laws- Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit any otherwise available immunity, privilege, or defense under any other provision of law.

‘(i) Applicability- This section shall apply to a civil action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Right here...
(i) authorized by the President during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on January 17, 2007; and


Under this immunity clause, if the companies
acted on orders from the President, they will
not be able to be touched.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Oh, but you miss a very crucial element
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 03:56 PM by merh
AND

‘(ii) designed to detect or prevent a terrorist attack, or activities in preparation for a terrorist attack, against the United States; and


You can't have (i) without the (ii). "And" connects the two and is vital to the immunity granted.

To survive a challenge using that "immunity" one must prove that the surveillance was designed to detect or prevent terrorist attacks or activities. To have tapped the communications of the DNC or an individual peace activist and try to seek immunity under this clause one would have to prove that the conduct was in some way related to terrorist activities.

You can't have one without the other.



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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. If the president ordered it....
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 04:04 PM by PassingFair
we will NEVER KNOW what they were looking for.

Because they will not have to answer for it, and
it will not EVER see the light of day.


On edit: Why don't they just strip the immunity
from the bill?

FISA will revert back to it's 78 rules until
Obama or McCain take over in January.

THEN they can change it.

This is being shoved down our throats to stop
the lawsuits against the telcoms.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. You are mistaken.
This law provides for congressional and judicial oversight.

The "immunity" is given only if it can be proven that (a) the president ordered it and (b) the monitoring was required to prevent or detect terrorist acts. In order to subject oneself to that defense (immunity as some call it) one has to make a showing that they meet both (a) and (b).

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Congress will not do it.
And citizens groups will not have standing to even inquire.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I'm not a lawyer and am trusting the ACLU because they are lawyers.
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 03:28 PM by sfexpat2000
But when I read Sec 702b (Limitations), it seems that were relying an awful lot on the term "intentional". Only one end of the communication seems to be required to be outside the US and if they both are inside the US, it's implicitly okay unless it was "intentional". Isn't that a lot like trying to prove "intention"?

And then, look at this under 703:

CERTAIN ACQUISITIONS INSIDE THE UNITED STATES TARGETING UNITED STATES PERSONS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.: Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Government to seek an order or authorization under, or otherwise engage in any activity that is authorized under, any other title of this Act.

(Doesn't that language seem awfully permissive to you?)

(2) LIMITATION- If a United States person targeted under this subsection is reasonably believed to be located in the United States during the effective period of an order issued pursuant to subsection (c), an acquisition targeting such United States person under this section shall cease unless the targeted United States person is again reasonably believed to be located outside the United States while an order issued pursuant to subsection (c) is in effect. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Government to seek an order or authorization under, or otherwise engage in any activity that is authorized under, any other title of this Act.

(Ditto about permissiveness.)

:shrug:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Then how would you write the law?
Do you believe that the US should conduct Foreign Intelligence Surveillence (conduct spying) to protect our national security?

Is it better to NOT have a law, to not have legislation?

The 4th amendment itself is not an absolute "without probable cause" - how would you write this legislation?

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I think I would leave 1978 FISA as written in place.
No one has yet to show a material deficiency that makes sense to me. Imho, this rewrite is mostly about giving the Republicans a platform for their bs. We've militarized our society and we've politicized our wars. :shrug:

Remember, we have evidence that Bush started spying on us in January 2001 and that didn't prevent 9/11. A lady from the ACLU said last week on WJ, if you're looking for a needle in a haystack, stop pouring on the hay.

And agree about the 4rth Amendment, of course.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. But the ACLU and others challenged the older FISA laws
and have done so since they were enacted in 1978. How do you know that other admins since 1978 were not spying on US citizens?

Provide me with the language from the previous FISA law that you like better than this law so I can compare the two. I actually read this as being more restrictive.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I've no reason to believe that we haven't been spied on since 1978
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 03:48 PM by sfexpat2000
or that ACLU hasn't been vigorous in objecting to that, either.

I have to walk this girl and then I will dig up the language. It will be good for me to look at both.

(Late today. :) )
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. ACLU objected to the FISA courts and the lack of proper due process
I look forward to further discussion - enjoy the walk.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. zOMG allowing the 1978 FISA destroys the 4 amendment!!!!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. All failures of Constitutional matters are failures to protect us.
Whatever seems small can become big in the wrong hands. We have the 4th amendment for a reason.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I agree but it did not start with Bush abusing FISA
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Doesnt' mean we shouldn't bring pressure to bear where we can.
What is your argument here, exactly?

That we should shut up about FISA and it's
immunity clauses because there wasn't a big
enough hue and cry about other 4th Amendment
Issues?

I was JUST as angry over the allowance of
"random alcohol check points".
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. There was a hue and cry but not from the general public.
Do we want to pick a fight we cannot win?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yes.
Bring flashlights.



You ALWAYS lose, lose, lose before
you move forward.

On anything important, anyway...

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. And I see no reason to keep watering down the Constitution.
German law was watered down right before Hitler took over in Germany. It was a series of processes. It's time for someone in public office to take a stand.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. It's always time to make a stand.
What are they in there for?

If they are not standing, they are laying down.

Just sitting on their asses....hell I can do that!

:)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Me too. As to the question what are they there for,
I would love to hear their answer. I doubt it has much to do with us anymore.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. no he didn't, the enablers that say it's ok did it. So you did it.
I am supporting Obama but i will not enable him. This position of his is dead wrong and illegal. Hey what happens when people enable a politician? Or have you been asleep these last 7+ years?
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. No, but apparently we all have been since 1978
Did you take the time to actually read what I posted?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. Even worse. Of course we've all been enablers since 1978.
The right wing has been fucking with our country--and the world--since WWII when the rich tried to stage a coup in favor of Hitler. They failed, but then Friedman's economic policy at the U of Chicago, the birth of the neo-conservatives, and 3 decades of CIA insanity allowed for our country to quickly crash behind the scenes. The chickens hatched back then, raised by Reagan and Bush I, ignored or coddled by Clinton, have come home to roost.

Obama isn't going to change anything. He wouldn't be capable even if he wanted to--which, frankly, I don't think he does. The only difference between the Democrat and the Republican presidential candidates is that the Democrats lie and the Republicans are actually the monsters they claim to be.

Obama already reversed his stands on NAFTA, now FISA. He's already not the candidate people voted for in the primaries and people are justifiably pissed, if not a little thick for having been so naive.

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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
58. Sure i read it.
You wish to keep up the enabling cause you're "plum run out of patience" Go ahead it can't make matters worse can it?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. Yep, this is just a goddamned piece of paper and we'd better
do what we are told....

:sarcasm:

For the record, this is NOT a goddamned piece of paper for some of us and some things TRANSCEND party

There are days

:banghead:
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. In other words you're willing to sacrifice our Constitution and our country
All so a Democrat can get back into the White House. Sorry, but I find that sort of attitude rather disgusting. One doesn't play politics with what is right and wrong. Oh, and didn't Obama swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution? So much for that oath, eh? If he is willing to break that oath, then what other oaths is he willing to break in the name of political expediency?

It is because of people like you that we've arrived in the position we're in. People who are willing to sell out our Constitution and our country a bit at a time for a modicum of political power. You should be ashamed of yourself, but as we can all see, you're way too proud of your "political pragmatism". Hint: Many of us think of it as selling out:puke:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. When a politician sacrifices our constitution he or she no longer has the
right to call themselves a "Democrat". The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are the two documents that made America great. Both have been shredded in recent years. Without them, what are we? I don't put party before country; that's what the Freepers do. Having a (D) behind a name should never give anyone immunity if they harm their country and their constituents. Our politicians MUST be held accountable for their actions, period. Obama should be working towards restoring those documents, not degrading them further.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. When a politican guts the constitution they don't have the right to call themselves a Republican.
That's the text you're supposed to work from.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #41
61. Where were you in 1978?
Did you read the OP? Selective outrage.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Let's see, 1978. . .
Oh, yeah, out there doing what I could to turn back the tide, even before I was out of high school. Of course I wasn't a noob to politics even then, since I had been protesting the war(Vietnam), Nixon and involved in politics since I was nine years old. What were you doing then, what you're doing now, outraged at the outrage?

Sorry, but I don't bend over out of either political expediency, or because the battle is a long one. You on the other hand seem to want to do both. It is, in part, because of people like you that we've arrived where we are now. Thanks, but no thanks, I don't fall in line behind such ilk, nor do I compromise on moral and Constitutional principles. You don't like that, tough shit, deal.



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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
62. I ran out of patience with enabling excuse-makers decades ago. n/t
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