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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 05:59 PM
Original message
Question about election fraud.
I for one think the last two elections (at least) were stolen, manipulated, or whatever term you choose. And I know there are plenty of DUers who agree with me, and have been actively vocal since 2000 about it. I also don't think much has actually been done to change the odds of it happening again. So some questions:

If Obama (or any Dem) wins the presidential election, was there fraud involved in that result?
If not, WHY not?

If SO (if the system is still fraudulent AND Obama gets elected), what might that say about our two parties and those behind the curtain rigging the election?

Are we only interested in winning or are we truly interested in the integrity of our quickly disappearing democracy?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm Interested in Integrity First
My country will always come before my Party.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am interested in honest elections and democracy
Obviously I would prefer that those who vote made intelligent and informed decisions based on issues, but I won't hold my breath.

Obama could win and there could still be fraud. I don't think they changed enough votes to overcome a landslide last time, so a big win would bury the fraud, just as happened in 2006 where we could have and maybe did win more than we thought.

Also, keep in mind that some things have changed, such as some state rejecting the voting and tabulating machines used previously once they were shown to be hackable. That could also make a difference, as could voter awareness of those problems, which would make people pay attention to their vote and/or vote with verifiable methods.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Two ways to stop the conspiracy talk....
1.) Force everyone with concerns to shut up

2.) Make elections auditable and audited
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. 3) Make sure we get enough people out
to vote so the election is not even close. Long lines like we saw in the primaries. (Naive on my part?)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That's how to overcome a rigged system. I think the poster was...
saying something like: "If a Democrat wins, will we all say the election wasn't rigged?"
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. First off: the Dems are not the GOP. There is a big difference...
...between the two parties.

Secondly: what you're suggesting is a hypothetical.

The most likely way the 2008 elections will be manipulated will be through fear to benefit the GOP.


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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Many people here reflexively cry voter fraud whenever their candidate loses an election.
It really is pathetic.

If Obama somehow loses in November, the only explanation that the nutters will accept is vote fraud.

2004 is a perfect example, people found comfort in putting blind faith in "vote fraud" instead of examining the failings of Kerry as a candidate.

Obama will win or lose on his own merits.

Its ridiculous to think that a bunch of nutters on the internet know about some massive vote fraud conspiracy, but the Democratic Party and candidates are completely oblivious, and apparently complicit in Republicans "stealing" elections wholesale.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. ..an excellent example of the "shut the fuck up" method of dealing with concerns...
Edited on Wed Jun-25-08 06:43 PM by Junkdrawer
of election fraud.

Note how any discussion of "Let's make sure elections are auditable and audited" is completely avoided.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. if Obama wins it will be in spite of the vote suppression and electoral fraud.
That is why we have to GOTV and make sure we win too big to steal.
It is nice of you to be so concerned about the GOP worry that we might steal it though.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-25-08 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. 'Fraud' tends to be used
concerning individuals 'fraudulently' voting, and was the 'frame' republicans used to appear like good guys; and then the U.S. attorneys found too little of it to spend much time with.

I expect reps to manipulate numbers received from states/localities in '08 election. And what that will say is that our system is flawed and should be changed.
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