Mormons go after gays again

[Cronus Protagonist]

Proposition 22 all over again....

http://365gay.com/Newscon08/06/062408lds.htm

Mormon Church Joins Calif. Anti-Gay Marriage Fight
by The Associated Press

Posted: June 24, 2008 - 8:00 am ET

(Salt Lake City, Utah) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is asking California members to join the effort to amend that state's constitution to define marriage as being between a man and a woman.

A letter sent to Mormon bishops and signed by church president Thomas S. Monson and his two top counselors calls on Mormons to donate "means and time" to the ballot measure. A note on the letter dated June 20 says it should be read during church services on June 29, but the letter was published Saturday on several Web sites.

Church spokesman Scott Trotter said Monday that the letter was authentic. He declined further comment, saying the letter explains the church's reasons for getting involved.

The LDS church will work with a coalition of churches and other conservative groups that put the California Marriage Protection Act on the Nov. 4 ballot to assure its passage, the letter states.

[EFerrari]

1. Good luck, fellas, we aren't going for it. n/t

[AlCzervik]

2. oh goody, can't wait until they stop by my house again, it's going to be fun---for me.

[sui generis]

6. well they are unfailingly polite

they just don't take good notes. If I open the door wearing THIS:



on the front side and THIS ON THE BACK:



Why oh why do they keep coming back????? :think:

[Strawman]

25. Kinda like this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uFUW6htvUss

[sui generis]

3. wah wah.

Technically they need to give a genetic definition of a man and a woman that isn't mere gross morphology.

Actually, I'd like to join in that and add that only fertile godly men and women, and this must be tested and confirmed first. Also, women that aren't too old. Or men. Oh, and preferably just blondes, and I mean, no gat damn calicos. If Jesus was blonde like in all the pitchers ( :P ) it only stands to reason that non blondes aren't really christians anyway. Absolutely no divorcees. Pre-owned cootch is immoral.

Red heads are goin ta hell anyway fer bein born that way so no exceptions.

[TrogL]

37. Have you seen the pictures inside a Mormon church

They must have issued Jesus SPF 85 sunblock.

[KamaAina]

4. Why are they allowed to do this?

Churches (and other tax-exempt nonprofits) are banned from partisan politicking, yet they may (and frequently do) take the wrong a position on ballot measures such as this. This is a loophole big enough to drive an SUV through.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. No kidding... During Prop 22 I walked in on a goup of ten Mormons

They were sitting in a circle making signs and getting everything ready to post around the neighborhood. I also happen to know that they did not pay for the signs themselves, but got them paid for by high officials in the church. One of them was so flaming his painted eyebrows were singed, but there he was sitting with them making all these anti-gay bigoted signs.... haha... I called him out and he wondered why I picked him out.... lol... he was so queer he looked like a black guy at a Klan meeting... actually, he was the only black guy among a sea of white folks, come to think of it... black and gay and Mormon... poor guy... :P

[MiniMe]

49. And what member of the * justice department is going to pursue it?

Crickets chirping

[msongs]

7. racist mormon cult is all smiles i public but behind closed doors their evil ways predominate nt

[SidneyCarton]

8. Yup. Evil, that's us.

We've got horns, get married nekkid, and eat small children.

Why the furor, in comparison to Dobson, Hagee, Robertson, et. al., President Monson is tame to the point of bordom.

[Radical Activist]

11. Just another example of the church leadership not following their own religious principles.

This won't save a single straight marriage. It will spread the same kind of hate and bigotry that caused Mormons to be driven from Missouri and Illinois.

[SidneyCarton]

13. That is of course possible.

The church strongly discourages the use of violence, but fools are fools and bigots are bigots and we have as many among our ranks as any other faith. I myself am not optimistic for this venture, and feel the measure will fail. Nevertheless, at times one resigns one's self to failure in regard to ones values, if for no other reason than to be counted.

[Radical Activist]

20. It goes beyond violence.

If Monson wanted to spread the gospel of Christ he could issue a statement condemning bigotry, including those bigots inside the church, rather than encouraging an alliance with the fundamentally bigoted organizations pushing the gay marriage amendment. There's a difference between having bigots in a religion and having a religious leader actively promoting bigotry, as is the case here. I realize that Monson will never make hateful statements toward gays, but spreading prejudice is the unavoidable and undeniable result of these marriage amendment drives. That isn't what Jesus or Joseph Smith taught.

[FreeState]

17. Yeah you think they would follow their own scriptures atleast...

(and I am Mormon - at least for the next month...)

“We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.” Doctrine and Covenants 134:9

[SidneyCarton]

19. Touche

And what are we to do when politics mingles itself with religion? The key problem here is the definition of marriage itself. For our secular (and rightfully so) government, marriage is a legal status granting certain benefits. For the religious, Marriage is a sacred covenant with its principles established by divine authority. The same word defines two very different institutions. IMHO, the U.S. would do better in getting out of the marriage business altogether, issuing civil unions to all interested and consenting adults. Marriage would become a wholly religious affair, that could be entered into at the couple's discretion. If then, the Mormons, Baptists, etc. do not want to marry homosexuals, they wouldn't have to, while the Unitarians and perhaps the Episcopalians among others would gladly do so. No one would necessarily get everything they wanted, but everyone would be equal under the law and able to follow the dictates of their own conscience.

[FreeState]

21. But isnt that already the case?

If then, the Mormons, Baptists, etc. do not want to marry homosexuals, they wouldn't have to, while the Unitarians and perhaps the Episcopalians among others would gladly do so.

The churches currently only marry whom they want to. A Catholic church wont marry a non Catholic. Sealings in the temple are still for Members of good standing only.

The only real problem I have with renaming Civil Marriage to Civil Unions for all is the bigotry that will be directed towards GLBT persons if that were to take place. The extreme right already says "gays want to destroy marriage." They don't need any more ammunition for their hatred. I also on a personal level feel there is a distinct difference in how Americans view Marriage over any other relationship - even if Civil Unions for all was enacted the current civil social standing marriage can not be duplicated with a different term, its too entrenched into our society IMO.

Oh BTW welcome to DU... :)

[CraftyGal]

39. Free State, you are correct.

For instance, if I had married a Mormon in good standing and I was still in good standing we would have had been sealed together in the temple as per our religion. However I married a non-Mormon and though I am still in good standing (otherwise I would have been excommunicated) we wouldn't be ablet o having the marriage sealing ceremony because TrogL isn't Mormon. Clear as mud, right?

CraftyGal

[Book Lover]

35. This atheist is married

And you will not wipe my (or for that matter, any gay couples' marriages) away with semantics. One does not have to be religious to be married.

[SidneyCarton]

41. Fine.

My point was not to wipe any marriages away, but to get government out of the religion business and extend the same privledges to all consenting adults. As there is no way in hell that this will happen anyway, I suppose we can bash each other's heads in ad infinitum over this wedge issue that allows for only an either/or position while the country burns down around us.

Peace to you and your wife, I wish you happiness.

[Radical Activist]

22. Or any of a number of things Jesus said

about loving they neighbor, let he who is free of sin cast the first stone, inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these...and so on.

One of the last straws for me was Hinckley saying during the lead up to the Iraq war that we have to trust that the government has more intelligence information than we know about, and LDS soldiers couldn't apply for conscientious objector status. It was an official statement that the church does not stand for peace, so now I belong to one that does. Its hard to believe that someone is a prophet and seer when he couldn't see that Bush was lying to us.

[FreeState]

23. True that :)

It is interesting to me that in this case the persecuted have become the persecutors. The LDS church is the last church that should be talking about "traditional" anything. I mean really my Great Great Great Grandfather had 7 wives all with the LDS Churches blessings (actually it was a commandment).

[Radical Activist]

34. They join a long tradition

from the colonial Puritans to Israel.

[Diclotican]

47. Radical Activist

Radical Activist

I don't know what happened and what Hincley was been told. But as many others who believed the US government do had intelligence about Iraq, they was not evil, just been told that the government had information. And believe it to be true. And for the profet thing. Even an profet could go wrong. If our Lord just was not telling it to him.. It was MANY in america (US) who believe that the government of US had proof for what they was claiming. That Iraq had WMD. More than 51% in fact really believed Bush to be true. Even after it was proven more and more that it could not possible be true.. Because the totally loss of prove..

And I would not be surprise that a old man like Gordon B. Hincley believed that the government of the USA was telling truth, when they was saying thar Iraq had a lot of WMD. And the intend to use it... Many enlighten men and woman even here in peacefully Norway believed strongly in the case with the WMD. And worked hard to get us into the band wagon when it come to war. But thankfully our government was showing the picture on the wall. And declined the request to send large group of troops to Iraq.. But it was a close call, and we have a ambassador who have been less than stellar. And have not acted as the diplomat he claim to be.. He might have been a good diplomat for GWB, but not for US..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[FreeState]

50. The problem for many is that this was not the first time for the Church leaders to

claim they "knew" something from the pulpit and the truth be something entirely different. Look up Hoffman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann) and see how Hinckley handled that. He believed they were real. As to the Prophet can go wrong thing... well thats not LDS theology - its taught that when the Prophet speaks in his official calling he can never go wrong - its only when he speaks outside of his calling that he could go wrong. But when he says "thus sayith the Lord" or implies its from revelation the Church teaches he could never be wrong.

(Hey also I dont know who you are - Jeg var misjonaer 1990-1992, kontor i Asker for 10 måneder også Bergen, Stavanger, Skien)

[Diclotican]

51. FreeState

FreeState

It would not be the first, or last time that forgery have been forced on a Church. Even if the paper was to good to be true. And as they always was trying to teach us when we was young HOME. If it is to good to be true, then it is not true. And in this cases, it was not true. I don't know why the leader of the Church believed in this forgeries, even the pretty weird one. But they maybe BELIVED it to be true, because they wanted it, and because they was afraid what could be there to damage the Church. Better to get the document, and stop it to be circulated, then to risk that it would damage the Church..

When it come to this forger, he might have lost his faith long before he was going to mission. And I believe it to be sad. Not because he was losing is faith, that is bad enough, but rather because of peer pressure from the family, friends and its like. I believe if you have to go on mission, it should be because YOU want it, not because your family and friends demand it about you.. But this is maybe something that have been changed lately too?

It is maybe not official LDS theology, than even the Prophet can do wrong but I do believe sometimes, that even a Prophet, can be told something by our Lord that can be changed.. Or if the Prophets was given different information about a subject he would choose the most "conservative" one. I have not been graced with the knowledge that our Lord can give. I don't believe I am "prophet material" anyway;). But when it come to this forgeries, every one can do wrong. Specially when the forger in this case is expert on the subject.

I do believe in revelation but if our Prophet are going out of his boundaries, he would do wrong to.. Have listing to some of Hinckleys speaces and I have to say, when he are talking as Prophet, it was something else in his voice, than if he was just talking as an "ordinary" man in the Church.. But if he suported the war in Iraq, then he was ut of his bounderies as Prophet..

If you was just reading closely what come from the US ADmin when it come to Iraq before the war, everyone with half a brain was understanding that this was a dam fat lie from the get go.. But when over 50% public belived Saddam Hussain to be behind the attac, everyone can do wrong. Even if he had greater insight than the rest of us..

I am living in Asker, you might not have meat me, but you hav maybe known my sister, because she was an "undersøker" in 1992-93. And was baptized in 1993. I was baptized in 2003 by the way. By Eldste Wright. So you have been wisting our little norway as an missionary. Hope you had a nice time here in Norway then;). And Bergen is maybe the most beautifully city in the whole of Norway;)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[CraftyGal]

38. Usually because the woman is always in the wrong....

therefore if the woman doesn't repent the man is told to leave the godless. Ask me how I know? I have been there. my exhusbadn wa the one who had the affair, I was the one blamed for it. I was even talking to the other sisters and they all asked me if I was "servicing" him in bed. I was shocked and appalled that it was turned around that I was the one who destroyed our marriage, not him. I left after that. I stayed away until 2002 and I had moved to another province (I lived in BC the first time around), Alberta. I had a church group that treated my kindness and respect. Then I moved from a small town, about 1,000 people to the city Bout 300,000...TrogL correct me if I am wrong on the numbers. I tried for another year, however we just didn't fit in. This ward was very clique and the kids in my sons age group teased him unmercifully because he had difficulties reading, especially out loud. He would cry having to go to church and to go to the primary activities during the week. So we pulled out, then I met TrogL and the rest is history.

CraftyGal

[Diclotican]

46. CraftyGal

CraftyGal

It is bad that you have been treated that way. It is _not_ the way it should be don. If it was your man sho had the affair, he should be told to stop it, and go back to his rightfully wive and be faithfully to YOU alone.. The action taken from your ward, when you was blamed for this is just horrible.. You are not the person who should be punished for this.. I am very sorry about what happened and I have a loss of word to really tell you who sorry I am..

And to be teased because you have problems reading out loud is just STUPID. But very children like. And to be scared because they should come to the Church is also bad.. Because the Church should be a place of happiness, not a place of sadness.

I don't know what is the case in other church, or in other ward, but where I live and going to Church, for the most it is an good welcome, if we are their often, or seldom. I am little to fond fo sleeping in at sunday, so I often have to oversleept... But When I come I am always greeted welcome. Even for folks I maybe not know to much about..

And I believe us to be pretty open to all persons, but we are a small Communion then, nothing 10 of thousands.. I believe it to be maybe little over 4000 members in the whole country.. So we might have to be open to the world somehow?:

Very sad you have to leave your Church, both because you was accused of been the case of why the marriage broke apart. And because you and your son was treated bad.. I feel so horrible because of that. This is _not_ the way we should treat our friends, and in many cases family.. This is just plain wrong.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[martymar64]

16. The Mountain Meadow Massacre

That's the Mormon legacy I think about. Also blood atonement (i.e. Enforcers) isn't too family friendly either.

[SidneyCarton]

18. Gee, after 30 years of massacre after massacre, the Mormons strike back, ... once

I don't remember the state of Missouri ever sentencing anyone to death for the Haun's Mill massacre, or Governor Lilburn Boggs being censured for being the only Governor in American history to sign an actual "extermination order" against a group of citizens. But keep telling yourself that we're the monsters.

[Kitty Herder]

31. Boredom is right.

One of the many truly excellent things about freeing myself from the mental and emotional tyranny of the Mormon church is that I no longer have to try to stay awake during general conference. Or sacrament meeting.

There are, of course, much more important rewards for leaving the church, like self-respect as a woman, significantly less depression, more peace in my heart, and finding a spiritual path that holds meaning for me. But not having to endure boring meetings is definitely a big plus. Oh, and coffee.

Finding out that you've been lied to all of your life is hard at first, but the truth sets you free and imbues life with new meaning and purpose.

[gollygee]

9. whoops

deleted - posted in wrong thread

[poverlay]

10. Bigoted cults who interfere in others lives should lose their tax-exempt status... n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. I thought the same thing during Prop 22

But they and the Catholic church were reported to the IRS and nothing happened.

[poverlay]

42. I am horrified, disturbed, distraught, despairing, etc. etc. over the

overwhelming lack of justice that seems to be the current status quo...

mala tempora currunt: "bad times are upon us"

[Ghost in the Machine]

12. Wonder if they want to outlaw gays, like they did marijuana?

For most of human history, marijuana has been completely legal. It's not a recently discovered plant, nor is it a long-standing law. Marijuana has been illegal for less than 1% of the time that it's been in use. Its known uses go back further than 7,000 B.C. and it was legal as recently as when Ronald Reagan was a boy.

The marijuana (hemp) plant, of course, has an incredible number of uses. The earliest known woven fabric was apparently of hemp, and over the centuries the plant was used for food, incense, cloth, rope, and much more. This adds to some of the confusion over its introduction in the United States, as the plant was well known from the early 1600's, but did not reach public awareness as a recreational drug until the early 1900's.

However, the first state law outlawing marijuana did so not because of Mexicans using the drug. Oddly enough, it was because of Mormons using it. Mormons who traveled to Mexico in 1910 came back to Salt Lake City with marijuana. The church was not pleased and ruled against use of the drug. Since the state of Utah automatically enshrined church doctrine into law, the first state marijuana prohibition was established in 1915. (Today, Senator Orrin Hatch serves as the prohibition arm of this heavily church-influenced state.)

Other states quickly followed suit with marijuana prohibition laws, including Wyoming (1915), Texas (1919), Iowa (1923), Nevada (1923), Oregon (1923), Washington (1923), Arkansas (1923), and Nebraska (1927). These laws tended to be specifically targeted against the Mexican-American population.

http://www.congressunderfire.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=2&mesg_id=2&page=

[Radical Activist]

14. Interesting

I had no idea.

Funny how Utah and Wyoming were the first two places to given women the right to vote and the first places to outlaw pot. I wonder if there's a connection.

[Book Lover]

36. Small point of clarification

Before nationhood, New Jersey recognized a woman's right to vote. We had to give it up in order to join the US.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sui generis]

24. good thing they didn't come back from Mexico with gays

instead of marijuana.

Everyone would have tried that too, I guess, shaved their asses, gotten pedis and manis and a smart new bob, and then promptly made it all illegal.

If it gives you pleasure it must be evil.

Mostly marajawana just gives men manboobs, which admittedly is fun for people who are into manbazoombas, but that's not a good enough reason to make stoned gay people illegal.

:silly:

[marshall]

29. They differentiate between gay sex and people who have gay sex

They don't really recognize a person as gay, the focus on recognizing a person's behavior as gay.

[edbermac]

26. Mormons want to define marriage as between a man & woman?

I thought the Mormon definition of marriage was between one man and a dozen 14 year old girls.

:sarcasm:

[Diclotican]

45. edbermac

edbermac

What other groups, who like them self to be named "mormons" want to do is something they have to take up with the lord someday. But as I understand it, the marriage are a union between a grown up man, and a grown up woman. And no grown up man and a dozen of 14 year old girls.. I really feel that is an horrible thing, to marriage that young girls.. They are still just kids who want to do what kids want to do... And I would bet that for the most part this kids who live in other groups than LDS would not be marriages to a man twice her age anyway...

When it come to the gay thing.. I am little twisted because if two grown up woman or man want to live together and be seen as "wife and man" then THEY should be happy to do it.. I really don't believe it should be so much of a problem anymore. We exist in 2008, not in 1955. On the other hand I am little conservative there and I strongly believe in the marriage between a man and a woman as the definition of marriage. Sorry if I offend some here, but that is just what I feel about it.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[iamthebandfanman]

27. wait, had they stopped? n/t

[yardwork]

28. Yank their tax-exempt status. This is clearly political action.

[Kitty Herder]

30. I've never understood how they get away with this.

If anyone knows what loophole allows it, can you clue me in?

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. No one in the IRS has the stomache to fight them

n/t

[noonwitch]

40. Marriage is between a man and his wives!

I know the LDS has banned polygamy, but they only did so in order for Utah to get statehood.

[Diclotican]

43. noonwitch

noonwitch

And it was right to ban polygamy to. It is an culture who thankfully is out of the Church today... (and have been for over 100 year). I believe it to be wrong, to have wives.. It is hard enough to get one wive who would be there with you the rest of the life.. To have a FEW wives is pretty hard.. And think about the mothers in Law.. No thank you..:scared:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[comtec]

44. THIS from the church that believes a marriage is between a man and a woman, and a woman, and a woman

hee sorry
I know many Mormons, very nice people.
between 7th day wack jobs, and a nice Mormon boy, ill take the mormon boy (do girls even get sent on missions?).

Iagree that the churchs tax free status needs to be rejected, but not totally.
They do a lot for their own.
IIRC if ur mormon, and ave decent grades, you get a free ride at BYU.

and iirc, byu is respected as an actual academic university, not like bob jones.

The LDS church has it;s own evils to amend for, but seriously... lets start with the baptists... those fuckers are evil personified, Mississippi burning anyone?

that aside... this is fucking stupid!

[BuelahWitch]

48. They need to look into their married men hitting on young women instead

Their marriages need defense against these men thinking they can play around because of a belief in polygamy in the afterlife. I can't tell you how many married Mormon guys used to hit on me when I was a young woman. Nor am I the only one with that experience.