No EU Lisbon treaty without Irish people's approval, says Miliband

[keep_it_real]

-snip-

David Miliband offered an "absolute guarantee" today that the Lisbon treaty would not come into force unless it was accepted by the people of Ireland.

The foreign secretary rejected suggestions that Britain wanted Ireland to rerun its referendum in the hope of securing a "yes" vote and said there would be "no bamboozling or bulldozing" of Dublin as it considered its next move.

"The absolute guarantee is that unless there is an agreement from all 27 countries to the treaty it can't come into force and also a guarantee that any change in the Irish constitution requires the acceptance of the people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/20/eu.foreignpolicy

[HeresyLives]

1. Promising things he can't deliver.

The UK has already signed it. So have most other countries, and they aren't about to stop for Ireland.

[tama]

4. What do you suggest they do?

Also Czech republic is about to say no.

[HeresyLives]

8. Rejig it again

and move on.

[tama]

10. How? n/t

[HeresyLives]

15. Several proposals have already

been made, to meet the concerns of the Irish. In a document that big already, there is always room for a couple more provisions.

[tama]

21. Which concerns?

The one rejecting the treaty? And no, under the current rules the treaty is not accepted unless ratified by all 27 members. No can do without second referendum or Ireland changing its constitution so that a second referendum would not be needed - there is no other way besides these two, both of which btw have been rejected by EU comments.

[HeresyLives]

28. Abortion for one.

They don't want it allowed. The 'Polish Plumber' problem for another. A mythical Polish plumber that moves to Ireland and takes their jobs. Basically it means anti-immigration, which is understandable, but the Irish have moved to other countries as well.

[tama]

32. Nope

Ireland according to its constitution cannot accept the treaty without second referendum - which doesn't look like happening - regardless of what the treaty says about abortion and Polish Plumber.

And regarding that Sinn Fein - a leftist party - was the only political party against the treaty, the issues you mention as the "real reasons behind the no vote" are bit thick and taste like smearing with poopoo.

Eurobarometers main findings about the Irish referendum were:

"Support for Irish membership of the EU was very high among both 'yes' and 'no' voters: Among 'yes' voters, 98% and among 'no' voters 80%.

For the 'yes' voters, the main motivation was the feeling that it was in Ireland’s best interest (32%) and that Ireland benefits from the EU (19%). Helping the economy (9%) and keeping Ireland engaged in Europe (9%) were other reasons.

The 'no' voters presented a much wider range of reasons to explain their preference. A lack of knowledge of the Treaty (22%) was the main one, while others included the protection of Irish identity (12%), safeguarding neutrality, lack of trust in politicians, losing the right to a permanent Commissioner and protecting the tax system (all 6%).

'No' voters supported the view that the result would put Ireland in a strong position to renegotiate the treaty (76%).

The young people who participated, women and those not working were significant supporters of the 'no' vote; many professionals, managers and retirees were backing the 'yes' campaign.

Over half of the people who did not vote in the referendum said this was due to a lack of understanding of the issues."

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/981&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. But it hasn't delivered the signature

Brown offers EU treaty assurances

A judgement on the High Court bid by tycoon Stuart Wheeler is due next week.

But a judge in the case earlier expressed "surprise" ministers were going ahead with ratification and asked that they "stay their hand".

Mr Brown said the request "fits in with our timetable" and "of course" it would not be ratified before the ruling.

The bill that would ratify the Lisbon Treaty passed its last Parliamentary hurdle in the House of Lords on Wednesday and gained Royal Assent on Thursday.

But the process is not technically completed until the "instruments of ratification" are deposited in Rome.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7465665.stm

But the point is that you couldn't pass the treaty without Ireland, unless they left the EU. It's very easy for them to 'deliver' this. They really wouldn't be able to do anything else

[HeresyLives]

9. Royal assent

so it's legal in Britain, whether they 'mail' it or not. :rofl:

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. No

That's not what the article says, is it?

[HeresyLives]

27. Doesn't matter what the article says.

If the Queen has signed it, that's the end of the road.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. You being the ultimate authority on the British constitution

rather than the BBC, or the government, or a British high court judge ...

[truebrit71]

2. It bloody well better not do....It says it right in the document for crying out loud...

...all 27 have to ratify it...not 26 and a special dispensation for countries where the voters told the EU and their corporate overlords to go take a mighty flying fuck at the moon....

Other citizenries, like the UK, had their rights voted away by their own government earlier this week....Broon and his fellow cronies didn't think a referendum was necessary and so they ratified the treaty FOR them...how kind and thoughtful of them....:eyes:

[HeresyLives]

3. Ireland will be isolated

and overlooked, and the EU will go on.

[tama]

5. Nah

EU is broken and people are fed up with the way elites fucked it up while showing nothing but contempt for democracy. But lot's of denial left among the elites who want to turn EU into imperial superpower... :)

[HeresyLives]

7. The EU has been put together

and operating since the fifties, and now represents about 500 million people. Ireland won't stop that.

Ireland, of all places, should know better. The EU is what helped them become the Celtic Tiger.

[tama]

12. You know

as well as I do that if put under referendum, the Lisbon treaty would be rejected by peoples in most EU-countries, just as happened in Ireland, wich is btw one of the most pro-EU countries as you imply - which should tell you something about the overall popularity of the treaty that the elites want for their own elitist reasons. If the simple conclusion escapes you, that when a bunch of governements wants to impose Lisbon treaty over the about 500 million people against the will of the about 500 million people and without those about 500 million people having any say on the matter (except in Ireland), then the bunch of governements do not really represent the about 500 million people you claim they do - then I don't really know what to say to you. Except to ask you if you really are a democrat, with a small d?

[HeresyLives]

14. Not everybody in the US got

to vote on your constitution either. I'm sure there would have been no end of fights if they had. Even today there are court cases on it, long arguments over it, and proposed amendments.

No document is ever perfect, and certainly won't be supported 100% by over 500 million people. That's not even possible.

The best they can do is get majority support, and try and meet the concerns of the lesser fry.

[tama]

20. My constitution?

I happen to be a EU-citizen, and was even pro-EU few years back. Not anymore, not since I was denied my right to vote about the constitutional treaty and Lisbon treaty. I don't support tyranny, and the representational parliamentary system as a whole has degraded into tyranny.

You want a constitution or constitutional treaty for 500 million EU-citizens, then the right way and the only way to do it is that you ask the 500 million people in a single EU-wide referendum and let the majority decide (national sovereignity taken into consideration also, if nationally counted votes give majority of no for that country then that country has the option of not joining the new union or joining it anyhow, preferably in second purely national referendum).

Why should EU-citizens accept less democracy than Venezuelans and other progressive South Americans, Nepalese and other nations that have had constitutional referendums recently? Because US didn't have a constitutional referendum more than 200 years ago? Puh-leeze!

[HeresyLives]

29. Sorry, assumed you were American.

I'm Canadian, which is why I said 'your'.

The EU didn't start out this big, it just grew that way over the years.

Constant referendums would be a problem in themselves. The other countries you referred to are not as big as the EU and don't involve separate countries.

How big is the document you want to vote on?

[tama]

33. How big?

"How big is the document you want to vote on?"

As big as I care to draft. What, did you expect me to vote somebody elses document? ;)

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. "the lesser fry"?

[HeresyLives]

26. Small country, on the fringes.

Not a centerpiece like France or Germany.

[spoony]

11. Not necessarily, the Czech Republic may not ratify now

In any case there's a lot less unity than they like to put on the public face.

[HeresyLives]

13. If they don't want to be members

they can always opt out. But as long as they are, they have to make realistic decisions, and they're not doing so.

[spoony]

16. Their decisions are quite realistic to them, far more than to any of us

posting from thousands of miles away.

[HeresyLives]

17. Well, they're in or they're out.

There's a decision they can make easily, and right on the spot. :rofl:

[tama]

23. You don't still get it

They're in - Czech, Irish and all, nothing changed. What is out is the same old Constitutional treaty repacked into Lisbon treaty. The official denial is not yet out, but soon will be.

[HeresyLives]

25. No, nor do I understand the hostility here.

The US brought individual states together, and when a few of them wanted to opt out, you fought a war over it!

So I hardly think Ireland, which most Europeans now see as ungrateful, is going to stop the EU.

If Ireland doesn't want to be a part of it, that's up to them, but there are lots of other countries pounding on the door to get in.

[tama]

30. No hostility here

And from what I hear and see, most EU-citizens are very gratefull for the Irish people - but feel free to live in your dreamland where only governements matter and people don't. You mix up governements with countries, but to tell the truth, European governements are not really much more popular or representative of their countries than Bush administration is representative of USA.

[HeresyLives]

31. Sounds hostile to me.

So I'll leave you to it.

[tama]

18. Told so allready

in post 4. What the EU-elites and their worshippers don't realize is that you can't sell to public a product (the Constitutional treaty that was rejected in two referendums and would have been rejected in many more if allowed to proceed) that was allready rejected in a new package - package of even less democracy.

[spoony]

19. Well put, sorry I missed your other post

:hi: