Will Supporters of FISA on DU defend the bill or disappear like the Project Chaos people did?

[Leopolds Ghost]

Poll question: Will Supporters of FISA on DU defend the bill or disappear like the Project Chaos people did?

Just asking, since I recall folks actively spamming FISA threads and
posting "love it or leave it" and "this bill is nothing new" type remarks,
trying to get the threads shut down with "Let it sink", and even plonking
anti-FISA OPs.

To quote Lord Cutler Beckett, don't be shy, folks! Your bill passed!
Stand up and claim your reward!

Onre or two people even admitted that as IT geeks, they were directly
involved in implementing the illegal NSA dragnet. After all, it was
put into place by Clinton and Bush I.

Do you guys really believe a project with this much mainstream support
in the Washington establishment, that is backed by the global economic
policy think tanks who have already implemented it in places like
Britain and Russia (along with a host of other Reagan-Bush style
"neoliberal reforms") that employs thousands of high-tech workers
in the DC area alone, doesn't have supporters on DU?

Note: this is not an attack on DU Democrats, since no real Democrat
supports warrantless wiretapping. But there are people out there
pretending to be liberals, saying there is no inherent right to
privacy and we should accept spying, etc.

[PATRICK]

1. The overt reasoning is so absurd or lame

it is hard to remember the ulterior rationale being any better.

FISA itself stunk as an unnecessary go around of important law. the same lame and faulty rationale was used to simply open the barn door so wide it fell off its hinges. The present legislation is innocently saying "What door? I don't see any door?"

It speaks in principle to the dangers of exceptionalism that the tyranny of the GOP is so accustomed to. Any emotion, any rationale, any weak paradox will do to expand the wrongs obtained by capitulation. The first steps were taken long ago and just now some people have freed their minds to notice the trajectory long traveled.

[Leopolds Ghost]

2. They are a frog in a pot of boiling water

They don't question things like, why is it possible to arrest someone
in the parking lot of a mall for wearing the wrong T-shirt, or detain
someone for walking on foot in the wrong neighborhood.

[Leopolds Ghost]

43. "MoveOn - STFU ! Stop being a goddam tool. Try this kind of logic before you get us ALL screwed."

"DON'T ask Obama to filibuster the NSA bill!
You are falling into the Right Wing's impossibly clever trap!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3502109&mesg_id=3502517

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/22/154532/464/756/...

[Leopolds Ghost]

44. "I do NOT believe MoveOn would do this" - they would NEVER ask Obama to oppose FISA - I'm concerned!

jimmyzvoice (1 posts)

I Do Not Believe MoveOn would do this

"I have seen this story here and on Huffington Post. But, even though I often receive e-mails from MoveOn.org, I did not receive such an e-mail. I went to the MoveOn.org website and cannot find anything about this letter. It seems suspicious to me. Is someone else putting this out to jam up the phone lines of the Obama Campaign? This whole story seems to me to be out of character of MoveOn to badger Obama rather than supporting him in what he wants to do."

[Leopolds Ghost]

45. "By getting everyone riled up on this one... are Repuks asking Obama to oppose FISA to get at us?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3502109&mesg_id=3507191

Posted by Stuart G

"By getting everyone riled up on this one...

They would be working on their divide, conquer and hate routine..
Is it possible that the second ad, is really something that Move On
did not put up? Just asking the question..

I have looked at the Move On web site..

There is nothing there about this.

http://www.political.moveon.org /

note the difference in the addresses....the one that contains
the stuff that urges Obama to filubuster is:

http://pol.moveon.org/immunity/080621obama.html


Their web site for political action has nothing...on this.
Is it possible that this is a fraud?

Something put up by the Repuks in order to get at Move On
and the rest of us."

[Leopolds Ghost]

46. "The RW is setting a trap, trying to get Obama to oppose FISA when Bush will break the law anyway!"

I thought the psy-ops people were paid more than this, perhaps
it is sheer stupidity (or a level of comfort with government surveillance
since they were a child) and not deliberate disinfo on these idiots' part.

They are even claiming MoveOn's appeal to Obama is a fraud and they feel
"betrayed" by MoveOn, like a good little concern troll should.

Witness this example:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/22/154532/464/756/540290

You Are Falling for the Right Wing's Trap. (by kath25)

"Yes, the FISA bill stinks. No, we shouldn't protect corporations.
(note misdirection) Yes, it's not a "compromise" at all -- I
agree, it's a capitulation to the White House and the Right Wing.

"Of course it is. The Right Wing designed it that way." (!!!)

"the Right Wing's greatest success on this might not be letting the
President break the law -- he does that anyways! -- but getting
activists to think they're being betrayed, thus eroding one of
Obama's biggest advantages!"

[Leopolds Ghost]

3. Looks like the answer is "slink away" & not "express concern that the issue is considered important"

[Leopolds Ghost]

4. Silence implies consent...no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yes, yes it does

by the way those reps who voted against this travesty should get a cookie

Those who voted for it, assuming we have elections, should be voted out

[Runcible Spoon]

6. would appear to be so.

Le Sigh.

[Leopolds Ghost]

8. I recall one or two folks in particular who tag-teamed every FISA thread back in Feb

With "Let it sink" and "Oh god not this again."

[Occulus]

26. And "The telcos acted in good faith

leave my carrier alone"

Actual quote. Google it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

30. "Don't tread on me" --> "I'm a loyal customer, and they are selling me a product!"

Funny how moderates fantasize about freedom of commerce and contract
as if it still exists, and then wave the flag of loyalty to a brand.

The oil companies acted in good faith and should not be blamed for
wanting to do business in Iraq... leave my gas station alone! ;-)

[Occulus]

40. In the context of my post,

'moderates', in yours, should be in quotes.

;)

:D

[ColbertWatcher]

7. Other-regret any posts supporting the bill.

And take back all my support for it, like this.

[Leopolds Ghost]

9. Hey, reasoned deliberation is not allowed in discussions of Congressional acts!

To gaze upon Congressional actions and attempt to explain them
by reason and deliberation would be to go slowly insane as the
Elder lobbyists from beyond the deep slowly eat our brains on television.

They have only one message: "Obey, and we will consume you... last."

:hi:

[ColbertWatcher]

18. Hey, reasoned deliberation is not allowed...Oh yeah!? Bite me! n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. You have to say that with a questioning eyebrow.

Bite Me, Congressman. How would you reply if I said that?

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Pfft, I got your eyebrow...

[Junkdrawer]

10. Just regrouping, waiting for the talking points email. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. We could try to even predict them

let me see

NOT so bad

If you think it is GO, LEAVE

Who needs the fourth Amendment?

And my possible favorite

Why don't you trust the guv'ment, they only want the best for you!

And of course... WE ARE NOT A FASCIST STATE, and all those poli sci definitions don't count!

Let's see how many of them I get right....

And can I get a cookie?

[Junkdrawer]

13. Don't forget the inevitable "It's the best we can do now..."

"Give all your money to the Dems and we'll fix this when we get a REAL majority."

and

"You idiots don't realize that Harry doesn't have 60 votes."

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You are right, my bad

the usual we need to keep our powder dry...

Damn it must be bad when we know what the TPM will say

[Junkdrawer]

15. They're running these past the focus groups as we speak...

I'm guessing that the ones that produce the longest period of befuddlement will win.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Hey I MISSED IT

the new talking point

These guys are here to SUPPRESS the vote!

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. Yep! Already we are seeing "rally round the flag" posts

I expect a stickie thread on "what is and is not acceptable criticism of
Dem candidates" any day now. Because, y'know, Bill of Rights gadflyism
and protest smacks of the sort of thing that libertarians... and other
GOP creeps... "Keep the faith, or else McCain will win because this is
a conservative country and most people don't agree with our obsessions"

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. And we are seeing NEW talking points

damn I will miss on the cookies

Apparently we are on somebody's payroll

[Leopolds Ghost]

16. How about "Pelosi had to stand by Hoyer and the decision of the conference committee"

"She could not afford to embarrass her own party by tacking to the
left of the leadership in an election year, regardless of how much
WE LIBERALS would have loved to see her do so."

[Junkdrawer]

17. The other option is to get a sockpuppet to post something COMPLETELY...

over the top and then nobly come to the party's defense.

After today, however, "over the top" will be a tall order.

[Leopolds Ghost]

19. You mean, like "maybe protests at the convention are justified after all"

"Then again -- naah, those protestors are illegal agent provocateurs,
the very people this wiretapping was designed to nab!
At last, we can put it to good use... AGAINST the GOP!"

Because everyone knows rioting is illegal, right?

And the law must be upheld right?

As it applies to commoners...

[Donnachaidh]

29. or "we'll fix it when we take back the WH"

:pfft: :puke:

[lonestarnot]

12. More than likely your answer! Pigs!

[Junkdrawer]

23. They're heeere.....

[Junkdrawer]

28. It took a while, but the new talking point is: (drum roll please)....

"Anyone disgusted with the Pelosi is a troll"...

Thank you, thank you.

[Individualist]

31. DLC talking points email!

[Junkdrawer]

33. It's like clockwork. Big political event. Unchallenged liberal outrage...

then, 4 to 6 hours later, a flood of posts defending the DLC position.

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. We'll get "the word" on the TV talk shows

Who needs internet, except to repeat the message?

[Swamp Rat]

22. k&r

[JackRiddler]

25. Disappear - mission (almost) accomplished.

[Individualist]

32. Attempt to browbeat progressives into supporting crap -

and failing miserably!

[MonkeyFunk]

34. people here supported it?

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. Or insisted that it wasn't important.

Not sure which is worse. I can tolerate a reasoned argument in defense of
warrantless wiretapping. Devils advocate and all that. But to suggest it
is a distraction, "keep your eye on the ball people" that sort of thing.

Implies that the only House Whips being retained are the ones they send
out to do damage control on the blogs.

Hell, we aren't even hearing "loyal opposition" leaks from the likes of
Conyers aides expressing frustration...they are thoroughly cowed it seems.

[BeHereNow]

38. Great post- I only have one editing suggestion for you-

"since no real Democrat
supports warrantless wiretapping"

No real AMERICAN supports warrantless wiretapping...

which tells us everything we need to know about our
representatives on BOTH sides of the aisle.

BHN

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. k&R nt

[New Dawn]

41. They'll slink...

[Leopolds Ghost]

42. Bump -- check out this post urging Obama to ignore complaints about FISA!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3502109&mesg_id=3502123

This is why Che avatars are not one of the things NSA looks for in their
global search & wiretap filter.