To those of you who are grave-dancing over Tim Russert's death...

[Danger Mouse]

please reconsider your actions and your words.
         Tim Russert was not always on our side...a lot of people here loved him, a lot hated him. I could go either way...but I respected him. He was a fantastic father, and leaves behind a grieving wife and children, and his own father. Right before father's day, a son is without his dad, a father without his son, a wife without her husband.
         He had a family that loved him.
         Very recently, my stepfather passed away, as many of you know. He was not always a good man, and he did many terrible things to me throughout my life...but I still mourned his passing, because I had respect for the deceased and for the feelings of family members more attachted to him than I was.
         It's called compassion. We liberals are supposedly known for it...yet I see a remarkable lack of it here among some.
         Tim Russert may have been many things, but he was NOT an evil man. To spit on his grave is reprehensible.
It makes all of DU look bad, it makes each and every one of us look bad, and it contributes absolutely nothing.
Tim Russert's passing doesn't make him a saint...of course many of us are critical of him. But most of the posts I've seen that contained criticism of him have done so in a way that is respectful, not childish and spiteful.
         Let the man rest in peace. Let his family mourn. If you hate him so much that you can't bring yourself to be polite or compassionate, then please consider not saying anything at all. I'm not asking anyone to refrain from criticism or to praise him...I'm just asking people to try and practice some compassion and empathy.
         Thank you for your consideration.

[malta blue]

1. thank you Elrond

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

5. i've said it so many times in the past...i hate grave dancing...

one of the most unsavory behaviors i've seen at du.

[roguevalley]

77. his career and deeds are irrelevant today. later, dice and slice his

actions on the job but today, my sympathy is with the survivors of his death. his father just got put into a nursing home. I feel for that old man, surviving his son. that is the part that matters today.

[King Coal]

82. Who was grave dancing? I can't believe anyone here would do that.

[rucognizant]

130. Off Topic

Yes, sad about Tim Russert. particulary the timing, I feel so bad for his family. I wonder if his Father is in ALF because of physical problems or senility. ( Hoping it is the latter so he won't be aware of outliving his son!)

But on the 2, TWO/ BOTH, threads re: the Dulles Bush family, I can't get it to scroll so I can read the comments.
Then if I hit the back arrow, it doesn't work either. I have had to close the window 3 times to get out of it!
This site works just fine as do several other regular websites I have tried. ( I have a MAC)
???????????????????????

[LaurenG]

2. Thanks for putting it so nicely. K and R. nt

[Danger Mouse]

11. appealing to the better nature of all of us.

[bjobotts]

113. What a tactless, tasteless, hurtful heading. Totally unnecessary claim.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

136. and I must state, that the several clear-eyed, open-minded,

history-based posts which bring out his support of the Bush/Cheney cabal, his covering up the DOD propaganda efforts, his refusal to allow air time to retired military who were against the Iran war, his swallowing and promoting all Iraq policies since 9/11 up to mid 2006, are not doing so in a tactless way. To the contrary, bringing a little reality to the coronation of Tim Russert is appropriate.

When Nixon died, people had all sorts of reactions, and frankly some were dancing on the grave. Yet, in retrospect, he was more liberal in domestic policies than many democrats currently holding office.

Russert was neither a saint, nor the devil. He made many mistakes, especially when he gave Cheney and Bush a head's up about precisely what topics he would cover and how he would cover them. His most recent sin was failing to even mention that the DOD ran an illegal propaganda campaign against US media, and that the so-called experts that he and other newsies put on the air, calling them independent, knowledgeable Experts, were actually retired military AND lobbyists for Boeing, Hughes, Haliburton and others, and had been prepared by the DOD. By keeping that news out of the MSM, he was complicit in an illegal propaganda program against America.

Sure, he was a loving father. So what? How does that change the damage he helped do to our country?

[defendandprotect]

145. I agree and in fact I think it's an argument here to embrace untruths

because someone has died ---

It's also gives a clearer look at how many people still don't get it about our corporate-press
and it's really a continuing concern because people still believe what they see and hear on TV!

And that, perhaps, is the saddest point of what we've discovered since Russert died.

To be HONEST about what has gone down in America isn't "dancing on someone's grave" except in
the minds of the ghoulish.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

152. There's no chance to defend himself.

Sure, he wasn't about to pop up on DU, but the fact remains that he cannot undo what was done, cannot make up for his past mistakes, cannot make up for his bad karma because he's dead.

He can't come clean, or apologize, or make amends.

So for that reason alone ("He's dead") we should avoid piling on. Everyone knows the charges you put forth, but since he's dead, it's moot.

"Sure, he was a loving father. So what?"

Hopefully that line will not be uttered at the funeral of anyone you care about...unless you'd be as understanding then as you are when it's someone with whom you disagreed.

I also hope that something along those lines won't be said at your funeral either.

Anyone here (or on Earth, for that matter) has done things that could be brought up after we're dead, but people don't generally do that because, again, we're not there to answer to the charges.

It's over, he's gone, he can't do it again.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

156. yet the damage done continues on.

and mentioning it, highlighting it, and discussing it is vitally important. How else to we fix the problem, how else do we define what got us to this place, how else can we make changes without a clear realization of how we got here? And take steps to avoid repeating those mistakes (or worse).

[krkaufman]

163. The passing of Tim Russert has not somehow miraculously cured the ills of our media ...

... so the poster's point is anything but moot. Russert was one of the most critical lapdogs in Cheney's propaganda campaign to take this country to war because of his position in the media hierarchy, so criticism of Russert, in light of the media's continued refusal to accept responsibility for their part in our being misled to war (see McClellan), is as relevant today as it was on June 12th.

No one is suggesting prank-calling of Russert's home phone, or staging protests outside his home or Rockefeller Center. People are making posts on a political web forum, regarding what they feel is important.. to themselves and to the world... and I, personally, understand the deep emotions many feel towards Russert and his colleagues for their complicity in the hundreds of thousands of casualties since March 2003.

Where's MSNBC's mourning for them?

[Leopolds Ghost]

198. I hope something similar WILL be said at the funeral of anyone who tactless, impotent grave basher.

"Sure, he was a loving father. So what?"

Eulogy for the grave-dancer:

"He wasted his evenings posting angry rants about recently deceased
celebrities and pretending to be part of some grassroots popular movement
when he was really just bitter and alienated and didn't know how you go
about swaying people to your point of view. Obsessing over whatever is
on TV, even prompted by a person's death, and not bringing it up
otherwise except occasionally, revealed his hypocrisy in life.
'Well, it's on TV, and I disagree!' they constantly declare, as if TV
is an authoritative source that is worth listening to. They never
actually turn it off and get involved in their community on a face to face
basis, or they'd know how anti-social their style of ranting about
deceased public figures really was. No one wants to hear it in real
life, not unless serious crimes are being papered over."

[RainDog]

3. k&r

[jefferson_dem]

4. Thank you.

The vile and petty comments made by some here about this fine political journalist on the day of his passing is beyond belief and really says more about those making the comments than it does about anything else.

[Danger Mouse]

6. It says a lot about them. You're right about that.

it deeply saddens me, to see people behave like that.

[Mike Nelson]

7. It's good that this is the first post I see on him...

I did not admire his work too much, but am not looking forward to reading and "grave-dancing" posts. Certainly, Mr. Russert doesn't warrant that reaction.

edited to spell "warrant"

[Danger Mouse]

8. They're out there. It's unfortunate, but they are there.

[gatorboy]

12. ...

Wrong area.

[icnorth]

9. You have a kind heart Elrond.

We (the world) need more examples of people like you. :hug:

[Danger Mouse]

17. i don't think it's such a huge deal...it's just being compassionate...

but thank you. :hug:

[Bryan]

10. K&R

Yes, Russert was content to be a courtier to the permanent Beltway government, an obstacle to the kind of world we want; but it costs us nothing to treat his passing with solemnity and the sadness of his family and colleagues with respect. Thanks for helping to remind us of that.

[Danger Mouse]

13. exactly...love him or hate him...it hurts us not to be polite.

in fact...it makes us all look good.
grave-dancing never makes anybody look good. never.

[ekwhite]

98. Thanks for reminding us

As the old saying goes - be the change you want to happen.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. beautifully spoken- and

:hug: and thank you for saying this.

I too, have experienced similar losses, and feel very much as you do.

Death comes to all of us- ..ALL of us. The dead can't be shamed, or hurt by what is said and done in their wake, but those most vulnerable (family, friends, loved ones), and those whose personal griefs have been "triggered" by another's death, surely can.

peace to you- ElrondHubbard
and comfort and healing as well.

blu

[Danger Mouse]

i would hate for someone related to russert to read a post on DU calling him a 'Repig'...

spitting on tim russert will not hurt tim russert. it will only hurt the people who love him.

[earthlover]

89. Bitterness is self destructive too.

It can turn someone into an asshole. Those who would dance on graves deserve to be in one.

[rdenney]

103. Ugh, as far as I know we will ALL be in graves one day..unless we are blown to bits with an IED...

which MSM hacks like Russert helped the * administration to start and continue, unabated.

Don't like that like of talk, "dancing over the graves"?

Lets NOT forget the graves of all the dead people who have been killed in *'s Oil war !

[earthlover]

137. I don't think a person's political beliefs should make us lose our humanity

by disrespecting the family of a dead person by dancing on his grave. Yes we all die. That is something we all share in our humanity. But if you say you only will act civil if it is someone you agree with politically and are free to be a jerk if the other is someone you disagree with politically, you really are being an ass hole. Even right wing kooks can dance on graves. Sad that they are not the only ones.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

153. Bad karma.

We should be sad that he can't make up for what he did wrong.

And we sure shouldn't be adding to our own bad karma by ripping him apart when it serves no purpose.

Go after the members of the MSM who are still actively helping Bushco, not the ones that are beyond our possibility to influence.

And to follow up on what you said, there are a lot of right-wing kooks that ARE dancing on his grave. As "they" say, "Politics makes strange bedfellows."

[janet118]

168. Then why do you keep repeating that term . . .

Thou doth protest too much. I haven't seen posts that name call and wouldn't have thought any existed if you weren't so eager to point them out and call them "grave dancing." Just because people object to the over-the-top, 24/7 praise of Russert's "journalism" creds, does not mean they are happy that he died.

I feel bad for his family. He seemed like he was a loving father, son and husband, but that has nothing to do with his credibility as a journalist/bureau chief.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

15. I knew Tim Russert personally

and while we were far from friends, he was a helluva decent guy. Like his politics or not, those pissing all over the grave before the first shovel is lifted to set him to rest are despicable.

Thank you for the kind and reasoned words, Elrond!

sP

[TomInTib]

26. My ex-girlfriend is very close to Mo.

She says Russert was one of the sweetest people she has ever known.

And she rarely says anything nice about anyone.

[Danger Mouse]

29. He always struck me as a nice person.

Just a feeling I got from him.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

32. though my position in our relationship was clearly

not equal with his (work related project) he treated me as an equal and never once gave me any flack for the constant annoyance I tought I was being. Everyone (most) just loved the guy...

sP

[bjobotts]

108. So is Bush, Gonzales...His work is not what he was just what he did

[bjobotts]

110. Being critical of his work is not "grave-dancing". If you saw 1 or 2 doing that

[bjobotts]

112. Why feel obliged to make such a hideous suggestion...read this not in headline...

"For those of you celebrating child molesting and Tim Russert take a moment."

For those of you pissing on Tim Russert's casket stop and think

For those of you lining up to piss on Russert's grave consider this

Why in the name of decency would you title such a stupid post (as if people needed to be told the obvious) "grave dancing" when at best only one or two remarks that may have been irreverent were certainly never in the headlines. Your was by suggestion the most hurtful tactless I've seen posted yet and that was before I even read your piece. God learn some manners or some tact as the heading was just plain tasteless.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. He always struck me as a water carrier for the Bush administration

Just a feeling I got from watching his interviews with them.

That's not grave dancing.

I feel badly for his family. It has to be hard losing your father so close to Fathers Day. But I also don't think we need to canonize him.

[Frisbee]

165. Agreed...

Sometimes people just have a different point of view, without being an evil person. That's how Russert struck me, but I don't think his intentions were ever bad. But sadly, for many here, it seems that to be anything but but a hard core right down the line progressive makes one a horrible human being. I laughed when I heard * say he was a "compassionate conservative", but sometimes when I see the hatred spewed by the supposed liberals here, I also have to scratch my head. Of course I'll make an exception to that rule for Bushco, hate away there!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. from the short time he and I spent together

I can safely say that we would have been friends had that time been longer. We hit it off right away...worked well together...and you could tell that just about everyone he met throughout the course of the day liked him...

Oh, well...no one here knew him...so I guess the knives are safely in the hands of those who would do harm to him...

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. I never got to meet Maureen or his son...

we just did some work together...but I can agree with what your ex said...

sP

[City Lights]

16. K&R

:thumbsup:

[papapi]

18. Thanks for this Elrond. . . .

I thought Russert did his job well. I will miss him.

[MiniMe]

19. I think that some of the people here thought he was a neocon, and the

people over in freeperland thought he was a flaming liberal. To mean, that means he was truly more in the middle than anything else. It all depended on what he was reporting on. The thing that I liked best was, he really loved what he did. Right, wrong, left, right, he was truly enthusiastic about it.

RIP Tim, and condolences to his family.

[Danger Mouse]

24. He was enthusiastic, and those eyes, so piercing.

He was good at what he did, right or wrong.

[pipi_k]

150. Yep....I just told someone....

a Conservative on another site....that there was irony in what she said. Because she stated that she did not agree with his politics.

I'm all, like....WHAT??? There are Liberals/Democrats who are saying the same thing!!!!!




I haven't seen too much of it in this thread, but last night I saw one where people really were dancing on his grave, and I just don't get it. If the guy was just as hard on both sides of the political spectrum, what's the problem? Is it that people are pissed that he wasn't a loyal little party robot? Uncover sleaze and corruption from BOTH parties....that's a journalist's job, or so I thought...


Anyway, it's sad that someone like him should be lost to us while the Billow Reillys and Sean Hannitys and Rush Limbergers are still walking the streets spewing their nasty garbage everywhere.

[Breeze54]

20. Thanks, Elrond Hubbard... compassion and empathy seem to have taken a vacation at DU,

since the GD_Primaries started. It's very hurtful to us all, imho.

Thanks for saying what you said. Someone had to...

:kick: & Recommended

[Danger Mouse]

22. The best way we can help Obama as a community is to not do shit like that.

God forbid some asshole in the M$M get win of DU gravedancing of Russert, who was a well-respected member of their field...

[Breeze54]

53. I don't get the equivocally to Obama though but people on messageboards say hurtful things...

...time to time. We're all guilty of that. I don't see Obama
being a target over this and if anyone did do that, I'd laugh.

[rdenney]

104. Yeah, lets all tiptoe after all the stolen elections, the dead US and Iraqis' that have died because

frat boys like Russert couldn't ask the pertinent questions, and instead, softballed everything for his masters in the MSM. :puke:

[Obamarama]

21. This is the reason I spend very little time on DU now....it's a toxic environment.

I haven't run across the grave-dancing posts yet, but it sure as hell doesn't surprise me that they exist. How unfortunate and unnecessary.

[Danger Mouse]

23. Such lovely stuff as 'repig' 'rot in hell you bastard' and 'i wish i could piss on his grave'...

[kath]

40. WHERE was that written? - please link.

I've been on lots of Russert threads and seen NONE of that.

Just because one doesn't jump in and canonize him ---"oooooh, Saint Timmy" --- does not by any means mean that one is pissing on or dancing on his grave.

but many are far too stoopid to discern the difference. pathetic.

[Danger Mouse]

44. here.

'repig'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3447204&mesg_id=3447944

'piss on his grave'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3447204&mesg_id=3447944

there is more out there.
and obviously you missed the entire point of my OP. i said criticism of him is okay...lot of people here have been critical! it's a matter of showing respect to his family and acting like decent human beings.

[kath]

60. both of those links go to the same post. And that's ONE post out of thousands, by a newbie.

You *did* say in your OP that most of the criticism has been respectful, and that's true. And it's good that you allowed that criticism is okay. Out of thousands and thousands of posts, only a minuscule number have been over the top. Many of us held off on saying anything critical until we became nauseated by all of the saccharine canonization going on.

A celebrity death is not a justifiable reason for leaving the "reality-based community".

[Danger Mouse]

61. i don't believe in canonzing him either.

i liked him. but i don't think he was a saint.

[Hekate]

86. Thankfully this poster has apparently been tombstoned. nt

[ekwhite]

99. There is no reason to be crude

The man just died today, for Gaia's sake. There will be plenty of time to criticize his work later. For now, let it lie.

[pollo poco]

171. war, war, and more war

Our public discourse has been seriously damaged.

At one end of the spectrum you have Rush, Billo and their ilk. They are mouthpieces for their fascist party. As such, they bash away. Their style of discourse is relatively new on the scene, but they have really set a war-like tone. Dirty tactics, hyperbole, masculinist, abusive.

All's fair in war, and they see everything as a war.

At the other end there is a gentleman like Bill Moyers. His toughness, erudition, and courteous treatment of opponents is old school. He will not raise his voice. But he gets the job done right.

In the middle you have Olbermann and others, who try hard to reference the old school, but who actually reflect the current bellicose style of communication pretty heavily. Murrow didn't talk that way. He was much more like Moyers. Old school.

All's fair in war...and we see everything as a war. In this case, a ratings war.

Where does DU come down? Pretty solidly with Olbermann. He is playing to us. He is appreciated because he returns the blows of our enemies. We are tired of being bashed, and we want to bash back. This is a significant victory for the right. What used to be debate has become mere yelling, name calling, and ridicule. The right has succeeded in removing all courtesy, humility, and common decency from public discourse.

Now, both sides (as if there were only two sides!) agree that everything is a war. And, all's fair....

While I do not agree with those who lionize Tim Russert, I am sad to be living in a time when people (including me!) are so infected with war. I hope we can find our way back to a more tolerant and neighborly attitude. We didn't start this fight, but part of our victory must be to redefine the rules of public discourse, to reflect values that enhance the strengths of progressive society, instead of joining the fascist blowhards in a contest where words have become nothing more than weapons.

So, RIP Tim Russert. I didn't like what you did professionally while you were here, but you died too young. Too young to see your error? Perhaps. But now we will never know. At least you worked it out so you didn't have to yell all the time. That's better than I have done.

[Twig]

101. DU has been toxic for quite a while now

When I did finally decide to log in and see if this had changed, I had totally forgotten my password. My last visit was in February 2007 I believe. I used to love it here and would read DU daily, but then topics like "F*** You started to be prominent.

Anyway, thanks for being the first topic that caught my eye, but then the toxic topics started rolling in. I just cannot believe the absolute hatred out there. Too bad they can't be put into a separate room.

Twig

[rdenney]

120. Perhaps thats because life in the US is Toxic, and people like TR have contributed to this?

Actions and words have consequences. TR supported the * regime and thats a fact.

[bbinacan]

25. AMEN!

This needed to be said. Thank you.

[gatorboy]

27. A good thread. A needed thread.

I can understand that the anonymity of the internet can make folks a bit more...bold than they normally are. But come on folks...Not like this...

[Danger Mouse]

30. Stuff like that hurts DU and Obama.

[tavalon]

28. Damn, I'm out of the loop

I was just discussing Jon Stewart being the new anchor of Meet the Press, and didn't even think about who was at the helm before and why he might need replacing. I guess I just thought some unnamed anchor was leaving. My condolences to Mr. Russert's family.

[bread_and_roses]

33. I think it probable that "respect for the dead" is a primitivism

...a hangover from fearing that the spirits of the dead will harm you if you speak ill of them. Why should anyone respect someone in death that they didn't respect in life? And people who choose public life also choose to subject themselves to the "disrespect" of strangers - it's part of the price of success, and why death should change that is a mystery to me.

[Danger Mouse]

36. It's not just for him, because he can't be hurt by nastiness towards him.

But his relatives can be hurt by it.
And so can DU.

[kath]

41. it is primitive.

seems very childish and moranic to me...

[Danger Mouse]

45. talking about yourself?

[kath]

54. uh, no.

responding to the observation that all this "you must NEVER say anything bad about the dead" stuff is likely "a hangover from fearing that the spirits of the dead will harm you if you speak ill of them" - a childish and primitive concept.

reading comprehension is your friend.
not clear why you're attacking me... :shrug:

[Danger Mouse]

55. well, i don't think all of us who are asking for attacks on russet to stop feel that way.

i'm more concerned about his family, personally.

[burythehatchet]

143. Boy, I hope you and his family share turkey on Thanksgiving

because your "concern" would be well placed with several million families who are dealing with their survivial and who weren't propoganda tools for the cabal.

[YOY]

83. No, it's respect for the lving that he has left behind.

I didn't always like the man's reporting but I did like his style on occasion.

May his family's greiving be filled with only the happiest memories of him.

[earthlover]

90. I suspect that you have no clue!

You don't dance on someone's grave because....DUH....there are survivors out there who could be hurt by such things. If you have to be reminded of this elementary fact, you probably are scratching your head about a LOT of things. Another reason...bashing is pointless, since he is dead and your bashing can have no fruitful consequence. Another reason is that when DU members would bash someone with as much stature as Russert upon his unfortunate death, any thinking American would get pissed off at such a thing, and this does not reflect well on us. So, as a member of DU, I would ask....please quit embarrassing me to be associated with mind-numb ass holes who like to dance on graves.

[bread_and_roses]

128. What a herd mentality, to be "embarassed" by the behavior of anonymous strangers

on a message board...because you are a "member" of the same "club" I suppose? Lordy, what an angst-ridden life one must lead with such intense identification with casual fellow-travelers

And such furious ire over the mere opinion that it is odd to expect people to "respect" those in death whom they did not "respect" in life.

As for the survivors, one assumes that they reaped the rewards of the deceased's successful public life; bearing the slings and arrows of public derision and denigration of said successful public figure is the price they pay, if any are so foolish as to seek it out.

I barely know who TR is - I don't watch the talking heads. But if you want disrespect for the dead, I'll show it to you. I call Reagan the same dead as I did alive: a blood-soaked old fraud, friend and defender of murdering torturers, an opportunistic puppet-creation of profiteering oligarchs. I piss on his grave. How's that?

[earthlover]

139. sounds like it is you who are in the herd mentality

If someone is not in your liberal herd, you feel like you can piss on their grave. If someone is in your liberal herd, then not so much.

I have a radically different view from you. I think we should respect people who are mourning period. Because they are humans. Because we are all part of humanity. Not because I agree or disagree with someone's political views.

I really don't understand people who can compartmentize their humanity, and only display it for memebers of their herd.

[Zodiak]

167. This is not about a "fan club for liberals"

It is about a body count...a very large one. IT is about a lost country with an international reputation for torture. It is about the Constitution of this nation lying in tatters and us all living in fear of surveillance while those that destroyed that sacred document continue unchallenged.

If the political argument was whether or not to build a liqueur store, then I can understand your derision, but I think you fail to see what motivates your fellow DUers, and it is not the abstract ideology of "liberal", but the real-life effects of its opposite.

[ekwhite]

100. It is not just a superstitious hangover

It is also about respect and compassion for the family members. How would you feel if someone close to you died, and you heard people saying nasty things about them on the street? Would the "it's part of the job" excuse make you feel any better?

[kath]

175. So Russert's family members have been coming here to DU in droves, and if anything

critical is said about him, it will hurt their widdle feelings?

PUH-LEEZE.

[ekwhite]

188. People who were friends and acquaintances of Tim Russert

have posted on this VERY THREAD. Apparently, you do not care about hurting their feelings, our appearing cruel and insensitive. Their "widdle feelings" count, regardless of what you may post. You are hurting your own reputation, and the reputation of DU, through posts like this. Regardless of how you feel about Russert's politics (and I did not like his), there is no point in dancing on his grave.

[kath]

191. It is not "dancing on his grave" to tell the *truth* about what he (and others

in the Corporate Propaganda Ministry) has done. Far worse to cover up or avoid the truth.

Some of us like being members of the Reality Based Community. It would be nice if the population of that community swelled to decent proportions...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802290020
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012501951.html


The man had been a public figure for decades. As such, he has been discussed/criticized in the public sphere for decades, so it should come as no surprise at all, to his family or anyone else, that he continues to be discussed. Part of being a "celebrity", a status from which he profited greatly.

Very, very, very few here have used bad language (called him "asshole" or similar terms) , or said "I piss on his grave" or anything even *remotely* approaching it. To rail on those of us who have attempted to inject a little "reality check" into the discussion is childish and inappropriate.

And it's not about Russert's "politics". It's about the damage that he and his ilk have done to our country. There's a difference, and the ignorant cannot seem to recognize this.

[ekwhite]

200. Oh, so those who disagree with you are ignorant?

Your self-righteousness is showing.

[zagging]

144. It's not primitive

It has more to do with good manners and self respect. The dead cannot refute the grumblings of their enemies.

Please don't mention Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. You understand the difference.

[Pacifist Patriot]

170. Respect for the dead has far less to do with fearing evil spirits than...

being sensitive to the feelings of loved ones left behind. Courtesy possibly derived from superstition is still preferrable to nastiness in my opinion.

[Time for change]

210. That's exactly the way I feel. Well said.

[Ken Burch]

k&r

Please, everybody, respect the Russert family in their time of loss.

[The Doctor.]

34. Where are all these "Grave Dancers"?

Seriously, all I've seen are a bunch of people canonizing Russert, a bunch of people saying we shouldn't canonize Russert, and then the first bunch calling the second bunch 'vultures'.

So, please... are you taking one or two rude quotes from a tiny handful of DUers and pretending the celebration of his death is an ubiquitous attitude?

Well, I've looked around, and it's not.

[Danger Mouse]

37. It's not, but there are people out there doing it, and it's more than just a couple.

Obviously you haven't looked very hard.
I never said it was a ubiquitous attitude, notice that I said MOST OF THE POSTS ABOUT RUSSERT HAVE BEEN RESPECTFUL? or did you not even bother to read the entire op?

[The Doctor.]

56. "Most" does not equate to "Vast Majority".

And yes... I've looked, and in doing so I can stand by my assertion that it's a "tiny handful" 100%.

Or did you 'not even bother to read the entire post'?

[Danger Mouse]

58. there were also some deleted posts and subthreads, and a lot of threads i haven't even looked at.

i never tried to make it sound like it was a lot of people, to begin with.
but even a few assholes can make the rest of us look bad.
that's all i'm saying.

[kath]

62. several of those posts were by someone who went around saying "fuck you" to everyone who "dared" to

say anything non-complimentary about Russert. They were NOT posts by "grave dancers", but were from the "deification" crowd. Just FYI.

[Danger Mouse]

63. good to know.

[kath]

65. one of the deifiers said "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" at least twice in one or two of the early

threads. Someone else jumped in with a "go fuck yourself", and someone replied to that or the original "fuck you" guy with an "I agree" type post. They're all gone now, I think, and not one of the three were "grave dancers" or even Russert criticizers. All canonizers. How very civilized of THEM, eh?

[anniebelle]

127. When the ship lifts, all bills are paid.

I see that is the sentiment of most timmeh glorifiers on this board. A quote from The Dick: "MTP is the best place for us to get our message out". Journalist or enabler? I don't know how the Wilson's feel about having timmeh being one of the gop's tools to get to Valerie Plame, thus her husband to ruin his career and hers and to lead us into this occupation of a sovereign country. Who mourns for them? I remember the media being all gushy over Raygun's death - you see what that has wrought. According to some polls - "the greatest American EVER". Dying does not eliminate the harm done to our society by "Gotcha Journalists" like timmeh. You entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine, SO FAR.

[The Doctor.]

68. I know... but that's what

alerts are for.

Going and making a big stink over the small handfull of assholes without explicitly maintaining how few of them there are is like saying, "DU is Full of Assholes!" to people reading the site.

That's really all I'm saying.

Just alert, get the shitty posts/threads deleted, and it doesn't look like the big deal it really isn't to begin with.

[Reterr]

79. Alerting is too quiet and private-public scoldings are more fun

Alerting may be more effective, may fix the problems sooner, but doesn't garner quite as much attention you have to admit.

But, you get to the bottom of what irks me about this sort of stuff-it reinforces the notion that DU is full of assholes, while many of the most offensive ones are probably trolls who will get TSed and be chucking in glee about how people are posting about how DU is full of assholes.

FFS, overall DU has far fewer nasty people than most online forums-NO place online is going to be completely free of it, but for a sense of scale head over to FARK or read the comments on ABC news articles, comments at Huffington Post (which are totally Freeped of course) etc. This place is really not that bad if you focus on the majority of the posts here rather than a minority.

[Reterr]

57. There are grave-dancers and the people who call the grave-dancers "not even human"

"You are a pathetic, sad excuse of a human being", "You are not even human"....

Is there some irony there or what eh? Not defending the grave-dancing-I saw a few nauseating posts but meh...there is disgusting stuff posted here all the time. Most of the people posting here are probably nice enough, but God the drama ....

I don't care for grave-dancing posts, but if that alone makes someone sub-human, what the hell is Dick Cheney? I mean so on the full scale of possible offenses we have pedophilia, rape, murder, corporate crime, starting of unnecessary wars....and then we have posting rude things about someone who passed away on DU. And the latter leads to people being dubbed "miserable failures as human beings"?
Ridiculous...

I mean c'mon....over the top reactions all around.

[Danger Mouse]

59. i would say grave dancing calls into question a person's maturity and compassion...

more so than their humanity.

[last_texas_dem]

117. Yeah, I think this sums it up pretty well

>>>>Seriously, all I've seen are a bunch of people canonizing Russert, a bunch of people saying we shouldn't canonize Russert, and then the first bunch calling the second bunch 'vultures'.>>>>

In other words, it's the same sequence of events that has transpired on DU just about every time someone well-known, from Ray-gun and Gerald Ford to the "Crocodile Hunter" and Laura Branigan, dies. I swear, it's deja-vu all over again...

[October]

142. I know. There are more threads accusing people

of "grave dancing" than anything else.



I'm sorry for Mr. Russert's family. Prayers for them.

[femmocrat]

35. Very well-said, Elrond.

K&R

[Olney Blue]

38. I agree with you, Elrond.

[JuniperLea]

39. Better to say nothing at all

He's not worthy of the praise, or the grave dancing, imho.

[Danger Mouse]

46. fair enough.

but by doing that, you're taking the high road, and i respect it.
:pals:

[Reterr]

42. This is phrased much better than the one excoriating people for being "giddy"

I agree with you about how awful the grave-dancing is and pardon me if I offend here, but many of the responses to it are just as disgusting.

I saw a thread earlier excoriating people for being "giddy" about Russert's passing and in the same post was the sentence "You are not even human". I don't understand how someone says that about someone else based on a dumb post-so an admittedly shitty post on a message board means that that person has NO redeeming value as a human being :shrug:? Maybe they love their kids, are a great dad or mom etc. hmmmm?
We don't even frigging know anything about 99% of the people posting on this board. Message board posts are really a lousy indicator of just about anyone's worth.

"You are a sad, pathetic excuse for a human being" etc.? Now, I can understand someone saying that in the heat of the moment, but then presumably the person saying that should be able to understand that some people can be nice people in many ways and people who wouldn't actually hurt Russert or anyone else and still mouth off in an obscene way on a message board.

Frankly, calling someone a "pathetic, miserable being who is not even qualified to be called human" based on a bunch of stupid posts on a message board is really inane. When someone excoriates people for grave-dancing and then calls the people doing so "not human" it comes across as empty self-righteousness.
They are doing the same fricking thing as the people they are self-righteously scolding-i.e. posting something noxious, that dehumanizes someone else, on a message board .

None of us are determined by our posts on DU or for that matter any of the individual actions we do and now I am nauseating even myself with how self-righteous I sound so I will stop.

[Lifetimedem]

43. All we can ever know

about anyone's character is how they respond in times of grief and gladness.

[Reterr]

50. Respectfully disagree

There are, at least in my opinion, many more metrics of character than reponse to grief/gladness.

Also, most people put their worst sides out on message boards-this should not be something particularly surprising. Many people also talk very loosely without thinking sometimes. I don't think this makes them "sub-human" anymore than Russert was sub-human for supposedly dropping the ball many times as a journalist (if he did that is-honestly I am not particularly familiar with him-from what I saw of him, I thought he was one of the better ones). If he did however, he would have caused more harm than someone posting drivel on an online board. And neither needs to be dubbed sub-human.

Shit, Cheney probably has *some* relieving features-we just haven't figured out what those are yet ;).

[BlueManDude]

47. I only "knew" Tim Russert as a journalist - and he was not a good one.

Was he a great friend and husband and father - all indications are yes but my "realtionship" with his was as a newsman he he was often carrying water for the GOP. No one is dancing on his grave but I for one will not forget his impact on politics including helping the GOP win Gov races in Mass and FL with his atrocious moderating of debates. Go read the Daily Howler about Tim Russert.

[Danger Mouse]

51. Dear Lord I'm not trying to put the man on a pedastal.

I swear some people totally missed the point of the OP.
and yes, some people are dancing on his grave.

[YankmeCrankme]

66. So what if they are. How does that affect you, really?

Does it affect you like gay marriage affects heterosexual marriage? If people want to dance on his grave let them. It doesn't even really say anything about them in particular, either. You like Tim Russert some people don't, you can express you fondness for him and they can express their dislike.

I've got no respect for him, he contributed to the disaster this country has become as much as any non politician. His giddy fawning over Bush was disgusting, as was his lack of integrity to journalistic standards before war and hasn't changed since. That's not even mentioning his pathological hatred of the Clintons.

So he was a nice guy and a good father. His family will always have that. Al Capone was nice to his family and good to his dogs. What also counts is what you do with the rest of your time.

You want integrity, read the post about Bill Moyers' speech to West Point. Imagine if Tim Russert had used his prominent position on national TV to highlight those issues or challenge the administration. Maybe then there wouldn't be people "dancing on his grave".

[janet118]

81. Good guy, maybe. Good journalist, no way

The excerpt below from Bill Moyers' documentary, "Buying the War," is one reason I do not think Tim Russert was a journalist in any sense of the word. If you believe today's wall-to-wall news coverage about Russert, he was a great son, husband and father. And his colleagues obviously respect him for his treatment of them in the workplace. Those are important character traits.

The difficulty I have with all the over the top eulogies is Russert's promotion to God's gift to journalism. He was NOT a fair, competent and trusted journalist and, as the news director at NBC, he did NOT elevated the network's coverage of national politics. NBC news, owned by GE, is still shallow and confrontational and divisive.

NOTE: To his credit, he was one of the few representatives of any of the networks who even agreed to be interviewed for this documentary.

BILL MOYERS: Critics point to September eight, 2002 and to your show in particular, as the classic case of how the press and the government became inseparable. Someone in the Administration plants a dramatic story in the NEW YORK TIMES And then the Vice President comes on your show and points to the NEW YORK TIMES. It's a circular, self-confirming leak.

TIM RUSSERT: I don't know how Judith Miller and Michael Gordon reported that story, who their sources were. It was a front-page story of the NEW YORK TIMES. When Secretary Rice and Vice President Cheney and others came up that Sunday morning on all the Sunday shows, they did exactly that.

My concern was, is that there were concerns expressed by other government officials. And to this day, I wish my phone had rung, or I had access to them.

[rdenney]

121. Bingo!!! These TR suckups just don't get it. He "went along to get along". Not much of a legacy, IMO

[medeak]

49. Russert was dem operative

after law school.. he was one of us people

[Missy Vixen]

52. I wonder about the humanity

of anyone who would think that dancing on ANYONE'S grave is appropriate.

Even if you did not care for the party who's no longer with us, they had family and friends who loved them.

I must be a Pollyanna, but frankly, would it cost some of you to even be respectful and polite? How would you feel if someone did the same to you?

Julie

[sunnystarr]

64. I would never dream of passing judgment ...

as a man he stood tall in my eyes. He came from lower middle class and earned his position with his passion and hard work. He found the American dream and he never forgot where he came from. I respect him and will miss him. My grandsons can't understand why I'm crying.

[kath]

67. Ack. In response to some of the recent posts here, and on many of the other threads --

Have so, so few of you paid any attention in the past 10 years to the "media watch" type sites (MediaWhoresOnline was one of the first and best, but there are many others. there's a big one whose name escapes me)that have *documented* so many, many media atrocities over this past decade? Are you happy with the state of the US so-called "press" and the so-called "news"? Do you think that they have served our democracy well? Have they done their job -- an important part of that job being to hold our government up to scrutiny? Do you think they're "fair and balanced"? Are you happy with so-called "debates" with questions about UFOs and other endless nonsense? Is "the Liberal Media" an accurate description? Has no one read Eric Alterman?

oy. I'm shaking my head here. have to sign off soon.

Is there one of our wise DUers who can post a little "primer" of sorts on this topic? Or a link to same? I know Glenn Greenwald has written a lot of good stuff on the sad state of our "press", but don't have specific links handy. (Alterman's "What Liberal Media", or similar title might be a good place to start. ALso Joe Conason's "Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth". 20+ years ago Neil Postman saw a lot of this coming and wrote "Amusing Ourselves to Death".

This is important stuff.

oy. ACK. GACK. :banghead:

[Time for change]

213. Here's a couple

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/229

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1252317

Russert was one of the biggest assets the Bushies had. Because of the power of his position and his ability to convince so many Americans that he was an unbiased journalist, he might have been a greater asset to the GOP than Karl Rove.

[hlthe2b]

69. Thank you..... that is all....

[UTUSN]

70. Neh. (Did HE do that?!1) n/t

[timtom]

71. Honestly, I only checked a couple of threads

and they were all respectful. I saw no maledictions.

[TahitiNut]

72. Talk to the hand ...

[KoKo]

73. I feel I'm watching the "passing" of Saint Ronnie.....

It does make one wonder........I don't know about what...but something...:eyes:

[rdenney]

123. LOL!!

[rdenney]

122. Russert will be talking to someone far below "the hand" when he gets there.

He helped the GOP to keep the war in Iraq going with his "opinions" How anyone can justify that kind of behavior, I will never understand.

At least he won't be around to throw stones at Obama, so that a good thing.

[BlueStater]

192. You're implying Russert's going to Hell?

Talk about over the top.

Russert was a flawed human being but if that's enough to send him to Hell then that's where we're all going when we die.

[weezy2736]

74. K & R

I've been considering taking a break from DU while some of these ass holes get over themselves. It's more disturbing to watch than the damn primaries.

When you want to know why a republican pulls off an upset in any race around the United States, look at your own actions. For the love of God, people, have some compassion. You don't have to agree with every dimple on somebody's ass to be their friend. If you like that kind of environment, there's a party somewhere over -> that would fit your liking a little better.

It ain't a sin to be hard on a politician. It's nice and easy for you to pick out everything he's ever done to a democrat and overlook everything he asked republicans.

Jesus Christ, people, you sound so much like 'If you're not with us, you're against us' over the past few weeks. Get a fucking grip!

[a la izquierda]

129. Been thinking the same thing.

I thought people to the left had a tendency to be compassionate and above the fray, seeing the best in humanity. There are people I think are truly disgusting, and I'll throw their names out there once in awhile, sparking an occasional heated debate. But the venom on DU lately is foul. Sure, I have less than 500 posts, so most of you with a bazillion won't take me seriously; but I'm a keen observer of what in other places around the world are considered to be "lefties" and yeah, there are the bad apples, but compassion rules. Compassion is what gets men like Romero killed in El Salvador. Who among you is putting yourself out there for your principles (veterans and active duty military, thanks to you in advance--I appreciate ya!)? Talk is certainly cheap. Anonymous bashing of others is even cheaper and easier.

On DU, compassion has NOT been the name of the game. Did I agree with Tim Russert all the time? Heck no! But he started out working class, common folks who Democrats are supposed to want to help; he pulled himself up by his bootstraps and made himself. He started out like many of us started out: I grew up damned poor and I'm still poor, but I'm getting there.
The holier-than-thou attitudes of *some* people on here are an abomination. He's got a wife, a son and a very elderly dad. You don't have to idolize the man, or like him. But I'd be freakin' embarrassed if something with my name attached to it hurt someone's feelings in such a time of sadness. Maybe that makes me a bleeding heart liberal...but, um, I thought that was the point.

[pansypoo53219]

75. but did he elevate

or bring down our political discourse? i don't watch teevee gnews and talking heads, so i don't know.

[unkachuck]

76. tens of thousands....

....die daily because of corporate enablers like timmeh....

....who mourns for them?

[Clear Blue Sky]

78. Nice words.

You are correct that he was a beloved father and son and husband. Very tragic.

And he was a good journalist. He challenged those he interviewed, regardless of political party.

It's embarrassing to see the mean spirited posts about him in some of the other threads.

[Snarkoleptic]

80. Thank you.

I've had a standing appointment with Tim via MTP every Sunday for a very long time.
His clout in bringing insiders to speak to the rest of us is legendary.
It's tough to agree with everything he said.
His work ethic, integrity and balance cannot be impugned.
These are some giant shoes to fill.

[kath]

87. Read my post above.

y'all need to pay a bit more attention.

do a bit of reading, and see if you still think he had ethics, integrity, balance, was a good journalist, "cannot be impugned" blah, blah.

More than a million are dead, and our country is in really deep shit, our Constitution in tatters - due in no small part to the enabling of our CorporatePropagandaMinistry. yeah, Russert's not the only one, but due to his wide viewership he did an awful lot of damage.

check this out:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012501951.html
In Ex-Aide's Testimony, A Spin Through VP's PR
by Dana Milbank
Memo to Tim Russert: Dick Cheney thinks he controls you.
This delicious morsel about the "Meet the Press" host and the vice president was part of the extensive dish Cathie Martin served up yesterday when the former Cheney communications director took the stand in the perjury trial of former Cheney chief of staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

Flashed on the courtroom computer screens were her notes from 2004 about how Cheney could respond to allegations that the Bush administration had played fast and loose with evidence of Iraq's nuclear ambitions. Option 1: "MTP-VP," she wrote, then listed the pros and cons of a vice presidential appearance on the Sunday show. Under "pro," she wrote: "control message."

"I suggested we put the vice president on 'Meet the Press,' which was a tactic we often used," Martin testified. "It's our best format."

It is unclear whether the first week of the trial will help or hurt Libby or the administration. But the trial has already pulled back the curtain on the White House's PR techniques and confirmed some of the darkest suspicions of the reporters upon whom they are used. Relatively junior White House aides run roughshod over members of the president's Cabinet. Bush aides charged with speaking to the public and the media are kept out of the loop on some of the most important issues. And bad news is dumped before the weekend for the sole purpose of burying it.

With a candor that is frowned upon at the White House, Martin explained the use of late-Friday statements. "Fewer people pay attention to it late on Friday," she said. "Fewer people pay attention when it's reported on Saturday."

She walked the jurors through how the White House coddles friendly writers and freezes out others. To deal with the Wilson controversy, she hastily arranged a Cheney lunch with conservative commentators. And when New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof first wrote about the Niger affair, she explained, "we didn't see any urgency to get to Kristof" because "he frankly attacked the administration fairly regularly."

Questioned by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, Martin described how Hadley tried to shield White House spokesmen from the Niger controversy. "Everybody was sort of in the dark," she explained. "There had been a decision not to have the communicators involved."

But Martin, encouraged by Libby, secretly advised Libby and Cheney on how to respond. She put "Meet the Press" at the top of her list of "Options" but noted that it might appear "too defensive." Next, she proposed "leak to Sanger-Pincus-newsmags. Sit down and give to him." This meant that the "no-leak" White House would give the story to the New York Times' David Sanger, The Washington Post's Walter Pincus, or Time or Newsweek. Option 3: "Press conference -- Condi/Rumsfeld." Option 4: "Op-ed."

Martin was embarrassed about the "leak" option; the case, after all, is about a leak. "It's a term of art," she said. "If you give it to one reporter, they're likelier to write the story."



If he had so much integrity, why was he the Dickster's "best format"? Because the Dickster has so much integrity? ANd the Chimpster? and the rest of the neo-cons? Oh, yeah, they're all just *dripping* with integrity. Just like their good bud and "best format", Timmy "the Bulldog". (Bartcop and others have some very good examples of TImmy the "bulldog" or "pit bull" in finest form (NOT) while interviewing neocons. Google is your friend.

[Snarkoleptic]

92. It's tough to believe any of what is brought to us by the MSM.

However, can we please give Timmeh some slack until the body has cooled to room temp?
He did a fine dance between Madalin/Carville (even though I suspected Carville of being a Reupke/DLC operative).
In world where there was enormous pressure to parrot the Neocon story-line, Timmeh was was on our side more than the side of corporate media.

[kath]

177. wrong. he was clearly on the side of corporate media.

Not on our side AT ALL, going clear back (at least) to the ClintonBlowJob Debacle.

read up a bit. It might open your eyes.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

84. Its not about him as a person

its about the media spinning what a great journalist he was, and how lucky the american people are to have journalists like him.

He may have been a great person, but he did nothing as a journalist to shed light on important issues to most americans, and spending 10 hours praising him as a journalist is just silly.

Its corporate media trying to tell us how great they are and how lucky we are to have people like Russert shaping national debate. Well we aren't.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

85. A lot of what they're saying makes him sound like a Democrat.

He and his family worshipped the Kennedy's, he wrote a paper about how great JFK was and he went to Woodstock. Wish I would have known this sooner - I would have liked the guy a lot better.

[Botany]

88. Some of the posts I have seen tonight are just mean.

Tim loved his family, his friends, his job, and his country.


I wish his family and friends nothing but the best.

[Bette Noir]

91. Thank you for your words.

I turned on MSNBC today, expecting to hear the latest about the campaign. Instead, I saw Keith, nose red, cheeks wet, eyes swollen into slits, talking about the passing of a friend and mentor. Dropped dead while at work, only 58, previously believed to be healthy.

I'm an old hospice nurse. Dozens of people have died in my arms, but all of those deaths were expected. When someone as hale-and-hearty as Russert drops in his tracks, it is an instant reminder that *none of us know.* All of us will die, and we don't know when. Russert was demographically similar to my husband: a chubby, middle-aged man who works too hard.

It is for this that we refrain to speak ill of the dead-- the next one might be one of us, or someone we love. The ones who die are out of pain, and know no trouble, but the ones left behind suffer terribly in their absence. Kindness is never wasted.

[SeattleGirl]

93. Thank you, Elrond....

....for a fine, well thought out post.

[sasquatch]

94. I just want to clarify what I posted earlier though

I posted a thread earlier where I said:"I bet bartcop is happy". That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm dancing on Big Tim's grave, it means that I'm pointing out that some people are including the "Hillary is 44" crowd and people like Bartcop that think HRC was done wrong by the media and this is karma. Personally I think its sick to dance on his grave when there's others that deserve it.

[FloridaJudy]

95. Thank you.

By all accounts, Russert was a decent and honorable man. My heart goes out to his family, colleagues and friends. While I frequently disagreed with him, his passing was a shock to me, who never even knew him. What those who were close to him feel right now must be overwhelming,

Let's save our venom for the folks who really deserve it, people. Even if you disliked the man, have some consideration for those who grieve. That's what thoughtful adults do.

Go in peace, Tim.

[mckara]

96. Tim Russert Deserves Our Respect

As do all others who pass away. Except maybe Cokie Roberts! :rofl:

Just kidding! I'll miss Russert on Sunday mornings.

May God bless him and his family.

[ekwhite]

97. People are grave dancing over Russert's death?

How cruel. The man had a family, after all. Certainly, I disagreed with him most of the time, but I certainly don't find any joy in his death.

[SwiperFox]

102. ...

Impartial? A good man? Who are we talking about here? One of the 4000+ soldiers killed or one of the million+ Iraqi dead? This Russert individual does not deserve the song and dance you are doing. Cut the hypocrisy, for god's sake! He was a true scumbag who fully knew the extent of the neocon machinations and, of course, was a major cog in the whole scheme. Honestly, aren't you praisers a bit embarrassed? You think that showering any corpse with positive praises, deserved or otherwise, will reflect good karma on you? PLEASE! I'm so tired of the hypocrisy of this place. I am glad there are a few who have the fortitude to point out valid points such as these. Reminds me of the house and senate where all support the regime while a few like Kucinich rise against the current of HYPOCRITES! If you are not on the side of truth entirely, then you are part of the problem. WAKE UP!

Read this for some Russert insight:


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/31

[kath]

116. Thanks for posting that - that journal is VERY good.

[ekwhite]

199. I am not certain why you are responding in this way to my post

Perhaps you mis-posted? You seem to be putting words in my mouth. It is not hypocrisy to comment that you should at least let the body get cold before dancing in joy.

[bjobotts]

105. Why would you have such a title. as if we here are doing that. It's condescending and petty.

[bjobotts]

106. Of course there is controversy over his work not his person.Your title is insulting

[bjobotts]

107. Grave dancing??? what a pathetic choic of words for your sentiment

[Raineyb]

207. My guess is to shame people into shutting up

Wouldn't want that nasty truth to come out about the man's career.

Not a cool tactic.

Regards

[leftofthedial]

109. he was a sweet, wonderful guy

and a media whore.

[John Kerry VonErich]

111. Not just gravedancing, then there are "conspiracy theorists" here...

that will truly believe and express on here that Russert got, what they call "Wellstoned" becausse of Plamegate.

[Kaotac]

114. People are doing that?

I thought Russet was an okay guy? From what I saw of him on the occasional Jon Stewart.

[cboy4]

115. These are the same assholes who laughed when the

Croc Hunter died, and even went so far as pasting a cartoon animation of a sting ray chasing after him.

Despicable. :puke:

[Danger Mouse]

134. Or, I'm sure, made fun of Laura Brannigan when she died. I heard that one was ugly.

[Honeycombe8]

118. I loved him. He was one of the best. Very informative, and usu. impartial.

He was all about the "game" of politics....not taking sides. This angered the far right. This angered the far left. That's how I knew he'd got it right.

And he was admirable for the outward affection he showed him family, in particular his father and his son.

He was one of a kind. I will miss him a lot. Sundays will not be the same.

[Old Hickory Fan]

119. Russert was an average American on this date

One interview I feel was strictly for the general public.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o9dJjAEVZ4g

[Eurobabe]

124. I have personally X'd all the Tim Russert threads. n/t

[southern_belle]

125. Thank you. k & r n/t

[DailyGrind51]

126. Thank you!

Tim Russert attempted to play things down the middle, when he was interviewing, fully understanding that ,to do otherwise, guests could get pissed and not appear on "MTP" in the future. This was his professionalism, not his political proclivity, at work.

[skepticscott]

146. That's exactly the problem

He was more concerned with his reputation (and ratings) that resulted from getting famous and influential people to appear on his show than he was with asking the difficult (and to his guests awkward and embarrassing) questions that a hard-nosed and impartial search for the truth demand. I don't mean to pick particularly on Russert, since he's no worse in this respect than any of the other political talk show hosts and professional interviewers in the MSM, but he was just one more cog in that machine. He and pretty much everyone else in the MSM have a tacit agreement with the political powers that be. They will continue to enjoy access to things that they can pretend are important, and in return they agree not to go outside certain limits in questioning and political investigation and reporting. Sorry, but I just can't put that down as "professionalism". It is certainly not the job of a true journalist to avoid pissing off politicians of any stripe.

Was Russert going to have Dennis Kucinich on his show Sunday to talk about the impeachment of George Bush? If not, ask yourself why. Is there any political issue more important than the impeachment of a president?

[peacetalksforall]

131. Elrond, there is a big difference between dancing on his grave and

commenting on his politics.

Dancing on his grave is attacking the person.

I see noting wrong with attacking his politics. Timing is important, however.

Right after the funeral, when they pick someone to carry on the show, Repubs themselves might attack.

Yes, there are distinctions between the man and his politics.

[Highway61]

132. Thanks...well said

It's sad that a "reminder" like this needs to be necessary at all because of a few disrespectful boneheads.

[Voltaire99]

135. Your sentimentality isn't a strength. It's a refusal to see, an inability to choose.

Until you learn to recognize and despise your enemies, they'll play you.

This is politics, my child. It's not making-nice, it's not neighborliness. and sure as hell it's not akin to you giving your dead relative a pass: no, it's about the division of power for good or evil.

Russert knew that, and whom did he serve? Russert was a Little Eichmann: he served fascism.

It made him a small scumbag who helped bigger ones. Good riddance!

[Danger Mouse]

182. I despise Bush, Cheney, and their cronies.

The M$M sucks, but I don't hate them. Not worth the energy.

[ekwhite]

189. This is politics?

No it isn't. Calling him a scumbag after he just died is not politics, it is just pure nastiness. I, for one, am not all that keen about giving power to people who are willing to trash a dead man before the body is cold. That treatment is reserved for an evil few (Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, etc.) whose crimes deserve it. What crimes, besides being wrong-headed and annoying at times, are you willing to accuse him of? Would it be "just politics" if I pissed on your grave, or on the grave of someone you admired? Was it "just politics" when people were saying nasty things about Ted Kennedy's tumor? I think not.

[EV_Ares]

138. Well, I have not danced on his grave, he is entitled to how he did his job. I am

just saying that the media is in my mind over blowing the entire thing. Tim Russert, I have no doubt was a good journalist, however, all these blowhards getting on the air and making him out as a saint, their going on about this and that, he was partisan at times, not any better or worse than other media people. If the media wants to do their job, they can honor Russert as they should, he was one of their own, but there is a hell of a lot of pretty horrible things going on in this country and the world right now they need to be covering, like all the people who have lost everything in their lives in Iowa and elsewhere. There are those of us who give a dam about these people and I have already been told everything I need to know about Russert and that is with no disrespect to the man.

[Maureen1322]

140. I was genuinely saddened by his death

I wish his family well.

[Bluenorthwest]

141. After the last few months

I find this a shockingly late call for compassion and humanity. Empathy?!?!?

This is a time, no offense, to look at the path we clear and the style we set as we go along. The grave dancing, from my point of view, is yes disgusting, but it is also exactly the tone and modality of the Primary season. This is the sort of politics many here helped make.
Respecting the dead is fine, but respecting the living is also important. Living life and managing communications with a full tilt lack of respect and decency in one realm leads to the same being applied in other areas of life, to other people.

The time to call for compassion and empathy was months ago. Be nice to the dead if you wish, just remember they dead don't know it, but the living never forget. This cycle the winning side has called the tune, and now you seem to dislike the dance that accompanies that tune? Should have called a more human tune.

[CaptJasHook]

147. Two of the many problems with the blogosphere is its immediacy and its anonymity

I think many of us had a small niggling voice in the back of our heads that voiced Russert's complicity in BushCo.

However, it shows a lack of respect for life and a horrible lack of compassion to give that voice immediate, anonymous connection to the keyboard.

Russert and his family did not deserve him to die in such an unexpected way so early in his life (I lost my father when he was just 50). He had many years ahead of him for which us to have a dialogue about the last 8 years. If anything, his death robs us all of an intelligent, passionate voice in the ongoing dialogue of this country.

Rest in Peace Tim, and peace to your family over the next few days.

[tomp]

148. you will of course let us know....

...when the official mourning date has passed and we can actually speak the truth.

I haven't seen the posts you're talking about but i don't really care. before he died i ddin't know he was a "good father" and i don't care now. i don't mind that it is mentioned because it was part of his life (in fact, who knows, this is his media friends telling us this?) . in fact, the only reason we know this is because he died and the media is trying to paint him as a saint. that very portrayl is counter to our interests. this appeal to manners lets them paint any picture they want of him and it becomes the official picture and justifies the next right wing pundit. as we speak, people are either not being informed or are forgetting that he assisted the most criminal regime in american history.

i'm not going to disrupt his funeral but i'm not going to say something different because he died. a person's death is a time to comment on his/her life. his sellout of media principles in a time of crisis is a very important part of that life.

[Kajsa]

149. Thank you, Elrond.

However mixed my feelings are about Tim Russert, his family
deserves some peace at this difficult time.
I lost both my dad and former father-in-law in the same year.
A few years later, my stepfather passed away.

My condolences, Elrond, on your stepfather's passing.
:hug:

There remains an empty space in my heart for each one.

And yes, three days before Father's Day just amplifies the pain and loss.

You ARE a good person, Elrond!
( don't argue with me, now!-:) )

We need more people like you.

:hug:

[bigwillq]

151. Thank you.

This is a very nice post.

Regardless of how we personally felt about the man, a family is mourning right now. There is no need for the hate and vile that some posters feel like spitting right now.

That old quote about "if you do not have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is probably the best thing many of us can do right now.

[Xeolyte]

154. Sympathy for the Devil

We are in the fight of our lives, trying to save what’s left
of the tattered remains of America. One man could not destroy
our beloved country alone. He has to have enablers. People who
carry out his bidding unquestionably and spread his
propaganda.

Yes I feel sympathy for Russerts family, but not for him. He
was an enabler of the horrors perpetrated on our country and
in our name in other countries.

I cannot help but wonder if you would feel the same way if
Rove died unexpectedly.

Xeolyte

[YDogg]

157. welcome to DU

or at least to posting. :hi:

[sam kane]

155. Where is the "grave-dancing?"

This seems like a an inaccurate charge against this community.

I came here looking for suggestions on who killed him, for what dirt he had. That's what I usually find at DU, NOT gravedancing. Man, making this claim against DU as a whole is so unfair...

[L0oniX]

158. This fawning over Tim's death is off balance with respect to others who die ...IMO

I don't see near as much sympathy here for those who die in Iraq or the over 5000 children who die from neglect here in the USA every year. Why is the soldier who died yesterday, today or tomorrow not as deserving of the same attention and compassion? Just saying ...it seems many here have lost some perspective on this. I suppose some will say that my response is grave dancing and I say that they do not have a good balance of the value of human life. Tim was a millionaire and his family will be taken care of more so than the grunt soldier who looses his wife and children and home from divorce and foreclosure. People should try to have more compassion and empathy for those who have been lied to and went to an illegal war and died for it.

[Reterr]

173. Very true-for some I am starting to think it is a lot more about sanctimonious displays

and feeling superior while scolding those eeeeevil grave dancers than any actual consideration for Russert's family etc. If they actually cared that much about Russert's family, they would stop adding to the shit pile by discussing it more and more :eyes:. Hypocritical, nauseating and sanctimonious....

[RetroLounge]

159. Yes, pissing on them while alive is much better

especially if they are running agianst your candidate.

:eyes:

RL

[AllentownJake]

160. My father drank to much and had untreated PTSD from Vietnam

He also loved Newt Gingrich and Bill O'Reilley and sweared by anything they said.

However he also was very active in coaching kids with mental disabilities till he was too sick to do so because my brother is mentally retarded and he loved those children. He coached Baseball and Soccer every season for those kids. He was a College National Champion Soccer player and he had the patience to teach kids with very limited abilities to kick a ball.

He was never abusive but the drinking could be embarrassing at times and the PTSD when Vietnam was on the air was unbearable (he had people under him who died). His depression when those stories were on TV was very hard to deal with and of course during those times he drank more. Despite spending a year of his life fighting in Vietnam his best friend was from Vietnam and he loved that man like a brother.

He died two years ago. I tend to focus on the positive aspects of my Father's character and not the negative now that he is gone.

[Neshanic]

161. My thoughts are with people dying for a lie. Thanks for heads up.

[Pacifist Patriot]

172. Must it be mutually exclusive?

I've never understood why expressing compassion in one instance must mean it is denied elsewhere.

[brokensymmetry]

162. Well said.

Let us resolve to keep our compassion, and to
never let the heat of battle deprive us of it.

[Phred42]

164. If stating the Facts is Grave-dancing - So be it.

I'm sorry for the loss his family and friends are feeling now. I do know personally what they are going through.

Having said that


Let's not forget that Russert was part of the Reich Propaganda Machine. R
Russert owns a large slice of the lies thaat went int the Invaision of Iraq. HE DID NOT DO HIS JOB. In the run up to the war he practically turned his show over to Cheney so that the Reich could SELL US the War and Timmmmehy stood by and ALLOWED it - or by his silence Promoted it.

"A time comes when silence is betrayal" - Martin Luther King

This country will be better off without people like Russert embedded in our National Media.

[Dukkha]

166. He wasn't genuinely evil like Jerry Falwell

Who deserved all the grave dancing he got and much much more.

[Pacifist Patriot]

169. Thank you. I tend to avoid DU whenever there is a notable death...

precisely because of such behavior. But I've been away for so long I am craving news of the DU variety so here I am.

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ourbluenation]

181. sweet jesus. nobody is telling you what to do. have at it. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

183. such hatred i've gotten from a few.

:evilgrin: and i was being NICE about it.

[ileus]

176. He was my favorite MSMer...RIP Mr. Russert.

[Wetzelbill]

178. I avoid DU when someone well-known dies

Someone who you know will prompt a thread or two. I've been sickened by how a few people will speak of the dead. Nobody is perfect, by any means, but I've seen threads about people like Steve Irwin, for example, get downright disgusting. I can't take that sort of thing. Tim Russert was a good hardworking man who had his faults that he could be viably criticized on. He was a solid moderator and loved politics. Plus he worked for Mario Cuomo and Pat Moynihan and that's pretty cool in my book.

[Paladin]

179. There's A Big Difference Between "Grave Dancing"....

....and objecting to the kind of rank canonization attempts that MSNBC's endless tributes have now been reduced to.

And as far as "grave dancing" goes, If I'm lucky enough to out-live the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney or Ann Coulter, I'll probably dance on their graves if I get the chance---right before pissing on them......

[Breeze54]

184. I'll join you... but I may have to squat!

:P Not that it would matter to those 3 assholes!

[lib2DaBone]

185. Come on now...

No one is grave dancing on Tim Russert. That's a little over the top. He was a TV personaliity, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mad_Dem_X]

186. Well said. Thank you. nt

[Zavulon]

187. Couldn't agree more.

You know, if nothing else, the guy always made Meet the Press an interesting watch. I didn't like everything he did, but to be honest I wouldn't want the host of that show to be 100% slanted either way.

Lots of Democrats hated him, but so did lots of Republicans. As my father used to say, "if you think I'm favoring your sister and she thinks I'm favoring you, I'm doing something right."

I liked his books, too. I'll miss the guy.

Thanks for your post, Elrond.

[kath]

204. oh, my dog, that's that fallacious "argument" again -- "if I piss off both sides, I'm doing a

good job".

who has that photo that says "Sheesh, not this shit again"?

[Zavulon]

208. Oh, my dog, I forgot,

all journalists have to be completely on our side all the time to be considered reasonable. I wouldn't have remembered that had someone knowledgeable enough to begin a post with "oh, my dog..." pointed out that I'm just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Oh, my dog, thanks for setting me on the path to truth and enlightnment! Arf!

[I Have A Dream]

190. You are a good man, Elrond Hubbard. Thank you for this thread. nt

[Redstone]

193. I'll not ever celebrate ANYONE'S death...

Except maybe Cheney's.

Redstone

[lumberjack_jeff]

194. No gray. Heaven forbid we consider shades of gray.

Russert was exemplary of a really unhealthy change in the fourth estate, they are no longer the watchdogs with a mission and a sense of civic responsibility. They're now simply a business intent on maximizing revenue, every other consideration is secondary.

I'm sure that his family misses him, and I feel empathy toward them. But his sycophantic nature has given them the golden ticket - it entitles them to be part of the inner circle of power and anything but penniless.

He did fine for his family. He did less well for his society.

[Raster]

196. Thank you Jeff! While not up for grave dancing, I'm certainly not up for canonization either.

And the MSM's over-the-top nonstop tribute is indicative of just what blowhards the American mainstream media has become. "He did fine for his family. He did less well for his society." That about sums it up for me.

[Reterr]

203. excellent post

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

195. Posted at Democracy Arsenal

Russert

Posted by The Editors

Those of us at Democracy Arsenal and National Security Network want to convey our sympathies to the family and friends of Tim Russert. We counted on his reporting and his tough questions to help illuminate some of the most important national security debates in this country. His contributions to our national debate will be missed.

[SwiperFox]

197. Facts, facts and more facts...LEARN THEM!

Respect is earned, not demanded. My thoughts go out to the innocent lives lost to the machinations of the elite, their heartless propagandists and their blind, politically-correctness-infected followers. Scumbags, despicable scumbags. My first posts on DU have been motivated by this nauseating display of praise for a dirty rat that did nothing but hurt the nation and, by default, the whole world.

[democrat2thecore]

201. Could you just - go away? We need no more like you at DU. -nt

[chill_wind]

206. sigh...4-post-count newb on a high horse is lecturing ProSense about "facts!"

eom

[sudopod]

202. A winner is you!

[DaveJ]

205. Good luck with containing free speech on the internet. n/t

[Time for change]

209. Where do you draw the line between criticism and grave dancing?

If someone dies who we think is a very bad person, yet that person is celebrated as a saint by our corporate media, I don't see anything wrong with trying to set the record straight on that.

Compassion and empathy? Sure, those are great things. But most of us have a limited amount, not an infinite amount. The fact that we don't have compassion or empathy for a particular person doesn't mean that we aren't compassionate and empathetic people.

[high density]

212. What does it matter if he's celebated as a saint?

That is generally what the media does when somebody dies, especially one of their own. What is the reason to fight it? History books aren't written by citing anonymous posts on a liberal message board. I can see people getting angry over it for Reagan, but this hostility toward Russert is something else.

[Time for change]

214. Why can you see it for Reagan but not for Russert?

Anyhow, my original question was what is the line between grave dancing and criticism. Elrond said in his OP that he's not complaining about criticism, just "grave dancing". Yet it seems to me that most people who object to grave dancing are really objecting to criticism.

"What is the reason to fight it?" This is a discussion board. We discuss things that are on our mind on a discussion board. Russert's dying caused many of us to consider what his life meant to us, so they're discussing it.

[high density]

215. The people who are blaming Russert for a war and not stopping Bush is not "discussion"

It is lunacy. Reagan was a political figure. He set policy. Russert was a talking head that interviewed people. He did not set policy.

[redqueen]

216. He influenced public opinion... to a great extent. (nt)

[Time for change]

217. Don't tell me that Russert didn't influence policy

He was probably the most influential person in all of the corporate media.

Why do you think that the corporate media is such a great concern to so many of us? What they say influences tens of millions of voters. With our media in so few hands now, our democracy is greatly jeopardized.

[Arugula Latte]

211. When someone dies, whitewashing their past is not a good idea.

I don't think it's unfair to point out that Russert did a great deal of damage to the institutions of this country over several years by carrying water for the ruthless rightwing powers that be. Yes, he was probably a heckuva guy to his friends and family. To the greater population of this country, however, he did a big disservice. Pretending otherwise doesn't do anyone any good.