Anyone seeing evidence of workplace shift to ATTRACT...

[OneGrassRoot]

and retain experienced employees in the US?

We're all too aware of downsizing and outsourcing, but I've read several articles recently regarding an impending labor shortage due to boomers retiring. They discuss how this is causing employers who are thinking ahead to try hard to recruit and retain seasoned employees over younger workers with more education.

Anyone actually seeing evidence of this? I've seen recent threads of employers having a nonchalant attitude toward employees still, not an atmosphere of workers being in any driver's seat.

[blues90]

1. I haven't

I am a boomer with lot of experience and i can't even get an interview lately let alone a job .

[high density]

2. Not really

I've been off the job market for about a year now, but when I was searching it seemed like 5-10 years was the preferred amount of experience. Those with very little or a lot of experience were SOL.

[bpeale]

3. i work for a research university

and they are doing away with jobs and outsourcing as people leave or retire. my advice for people in academia, leave before they do away with you.

[angstlessk]

4. Well from all the actual EVIDENCE..we are TOO educated to do the jobs

the Mexicans are willing to do and TOO uneducated to do the jobs the HB visa people will do??? Old, young or even middle aged..we seem to be irrelevant to the workplace?

[cap]

39. we arent uneducated... it's just that they are writing the job

reqs too narrowly. Most jobs require an average college degree no more. The rest is just learning the job duties of that particular organization. For gosh sakes, most college grads dont use the calculus that they learned in their freshman year!

The point of having a college education, especially a liberal arts degree, is to have the basis to acquire the skills that you need to for a job.

Frankly, if the growth field in the future is to become an astronaut and fly a space ship, I think most people on this job board could learn to do so and be successful at it. Why? They are educated people.

[OneGrassRoot]

40. You hit the nail on the head, IMHO. Well said. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

5. I see lots of jobs for financial analysts and programmers - wherever they're from....

... Of course, they require advanced degrees in math, econ, finance, cs, or the like, which is something that is less and less common homegrown - which explains why I work primarily with Chinese and Indian folks. America seems to only produce unjustifiably-entitled-feeling idiots these days.

[catnhatnh]

9. You mean people who feel they are unjustifiably...

more entitled to HAVE jobs in this country than outsiders brought in at BOTH the high and low ends of the wage scale to debase labor prices while sowing high (and hidden) unemployment???

[BlooInBloo]

10. Nope.

[cap]

11. Americans are refusing to get educated in fields known to be targets

for outsourcing. That's why there's only immigrants. I see it as eminently sensible. CIO's are telling their kids not to go in for CS degrees!

[BlooInBloo]

15. Makes perfect sense - stay away from the sciences because other people study them.

Sheesh.

[catnhatnh]

20. Nope...

...you are confusing cause and effect...beCAUSE H2B visas drive down demand and wages in a job field, the EFFECT is that it becomes less economically viable to study in that field....

[BlooInBloo]

21. No I'm not....

Like I said initially - I've worked in my current position for over a year, and all the groups on our floor have had ongoing interviews and hiring the entire time. There's plenty of work for the suitably educated. Advanced degrees in math, finance, physics, econ, cs are what I'm talking about.

I work almost exclusively with Chinese and Indian folks simply because there don't seem to be many 2nd+ generation Americans with that background. The work is there to be done. Still.

[catnhatnh]

22. You mean that even if their visas were revoked....

...you don't think you could negotiate a pay raise-WOW, that is sad....

[BlooInBloo]

23. (shrug) I suppose I could, but that would just be gravy on top of gravy....

... Don't get me wrong - I like gravy ass much as the next guy, but I have no problem with sharing.

[cap]

32. obviously you are under 40

there are boat loads of over 40 programmers and engineers who are unemployed and havent been able to get steady jobs for the past 5 years. People are leaving the field because they cant make it. They are educated people with the skill sets or have the background to be retrained if given the opportunity. I know lots of Ivy Leaguers who have technical degrees who cant find jobs.

Remember the engineers who were over 40 were the people who COULD learn on the job. They had to. None of this stuff existed. They had to figure things out.

I say ship the whole field overseas. It does not offer a career track that will take you to age 65. Given that the average of the workforce will be over 50 in 4 years, I have to question the value of any field that will not offer retraining. Dont even get me started on the current lack of women in the field. It used to be 30% women.

[BlooInBloo]

43. (shrug) I can only speak of what's in front of me...

... And what's in front of me is NOT as you describe, but is as I describe.

[cap]

44. your experience is limited...

Ask personnel how many resumes they receive for each position. Remember the 90's, even before the Internet boom? Want ad sections in newspapers were several pages thick for programming jobs. People got several offers for positions. No one was out of work for more than 2-3 months -- and usually had a job offer within the first month. Go to your ACM or IEE meetings and you will meet your out-of-work engineers.

Try reading some job boards where unemployed engineers post. You will change your mind. Slashdot usually has some folks ranting about this. There are loads of qualified American engineers. I dont see any reason for a 20 something to major in a field where they can ship the position overseas at the drop of a hat.


Where are the 50-65 year olds? I bet you dont have anyone that age.

[BlooInBloo]

49. And yours is nil. We have numerous greybeards. Wanna make any more ignorant bets?

And then claim that *I'm* the one with limited experience?

... where I clearly and repeatedly emphasized the math, finance and physics as well, which would give any reasonable person a certain "flavor" of the types of jobs we have - not plain-jane CS. And I also mentioned, repeatedly, the advanced degree business. Offhand, I would guesstimate that my floor - about 200 people - is about 50/50 MS/Ph.D. folks (well, not including admins and the like).

[cap]

50. You are drawing from a limited sample pool.

The IEEE has done a report on outsourcing that has shown the demise of jobs within the IT field to be declining by a factor of 50%. There has been Congressional testimony by Dr. Matloff (sp?) to this effect. The banks have a goal of outsourcing 30% more by the year 2010. Who wants unstable jobs?

Why are the people on Slashdot writing posts that they've been unemployed for YEARS! not MONTHS! but YEARS!???

MIT graduates are not gravitating towards tech jobs anymore. They are noticeably going into fields other than engineering.

There are a ton of ex-Bell lab engineers not working in their field or working below their capacity. Princeton IEEE has been trying to help their membership get jobs. The best and the brightest are getting out of the field.

[BlooInBloo]

51. I'm not in IT. I'm in finance. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

I'm sorry, but I have to go to work now, and interview visa-people for jobs you say don't exist - and even if they did exist, you all say, IT people who (commonly can't program their way out of a paper bag) would still be qualified - say you. Despite the fact that I repeatedly talked about advanced degrees in mathematics, finance, physics, etc.. Such an education is radically different from that of youe typical web-page-maker.

We see this phenomenon ROUTINTELY:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html

:rofl: My fav-anecdote: asking a candidate to rate himself 1-10 in his c++ - he says "11" - funny enough right there - but then he can't even correctly answer a basic question on a class' ownership of a pointer and its memory. :rofl:

You can't have it both ways: endorsing advising Americans to not get advanced degrees in the sciences, and then complain that Americans can't get jobs in fields that require those very degrees.

"My sample pool is limited" ROFLMAO!!! As if other peoples' AREN'T.

[cap]

54. This situation does exist:

Americans already qualified cant get jobs. People should not go get degrees in subjects that they cant get jobs in (unless they truly love the field!).

Finance is also on the chopping block. Back Office functions are being outsourced. Your field may start to get the ax next.

I would not interview people based on oral pop quizs on their command of a language syntax. That type of information is readily available on the web. Also, there are a lot of unqualified candidates who can answer those questions by prepping on the web -- type "C++ interview questions" and memorizing the answers. The big problems that arise come from a lack of understanding of how to architect systems, and how to construct scalable systems.
There is too much moaning in IT about how you cant find decent candidates. I can take almost anyone -- even that guy who flunked your pop quiz and turn him into a decent worker. It is all about management. I have worked with liberal arts types with no background in CS or finance and they have done just fine. Again, this work can be done with a basic college education, there is no great knowledge really needed.

Again, your pool is limited. Look at the studies I mentioned above. They look at the pool nationwide. Also, check out UnitedProfessionals.org with Barbara Ehrenreich. They are starting to organize nationwide for change.

[BlooInBloo]

58. Good luck to you. We'll keep hiring.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. I see your point, but

if you're going to post about the intellectual shortcomings of Americans, maybe you can muster the vocabulary skills to find a better adjective than "unjustifiably-entitled-feeling."

:hi:

[DebJ]

6. Not at Hershey: US soldiers may soon be handing out Mexican

chocolates: go to www.kissesforhershey.com and sign the petition. Sheesh, I'd pay double for a chocolate bar to keep jobs here. Sheesh.

[OneGrassRoot]

7. Holy crap....I was afraid this was the case

I was just hoping someone here had noticed a positive shift. It's probably different for the various skill sets and industries - these articles didn't mention any specifics.

Thank you all for responding. For those of you searching, I truly wish you all the best. Hopefully something good is on the horizon.

[Jazzgirl]

8. Knowledge management is big too.

Yup. Where I work a ton of people are beginning to retire. It is amazing me the number of people I know that are retiring in the next 6 months! People that I thought had a few more years are retiring early because they're sick of the crap. They are offering packages to try to retain people. Its an industry where it is beneficial to have long-term knowledge and its almost all gone....

JG

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Could you elaborate on what knowledge management is?

I looked it up quickly but the description is rather vague. I'm just curious. :)

Thanks

[MadMaddie]

12. No this won't happen until American companies finally

realize that outsourcing to other countries is negatively hitting their bottom line.

Security of propriatary information is lacking (data is overseas and probably bieng stolen)

They really do not have control of customer information (Identity theft will continue to increase because of this. Customers will continue to sue until the practice stops.

And with the impending retirement of the baby boomers, none of the companies and our US government have really planned for the brain drain.

It could be devastating.

[OneGrassRoot]

18. Interesting...

I can't find the article right now (I can't seem to find anything quickly any more :eyes: ), but I'm sure it was mentioned here a couple of weeks or so ago.

Anyway, bigshots in the corporate world were discussing how global warming and a backlash against globalization were the biggest issues they are facing.

Maybe this was the same forum where Murdoch admitted he pushed the B*ush agenda?

The point is that your description may be exactly what they were alluding to with the backlash against globalization, and how it's going to impact their bottom line in the near future.

[Cobalt Violet]

13. Not at my place.

They keep coming up with new ways to cut peoples pay.

[Deja Q]

14. It's a fair claim but so far the boomers haven't started retiring yet...

Once it does, things will get better. It's a matter of when.

[cap]

45. boomers cant retire.. they have no savings..

eom

[hack89]

17. Yes

developers with security clearances are scarce - my company goes to a lot of effort to recruit and retain them.

[cap]

33. how about getting security clearances for existing developers?

it's an artificial shortage. We used to divide the work up and have people work on the stuff that doesn't need a clearance, like the logging subsection, until they got their clearance. Then they could work on stuff that required the clearance. Or they built the software but just didnt have access to the data. There's lots of ways around the clearance issue.

[stevedeshazer]

19. I'm 52 and the only jobs are dead end low pay types

I make about 40% of my 2002 pay.

It's not happening here.

[cap]

34. it's time people start to band together...

In 2010, 25% of the workforce will be over 50. Why should they be sucking wind?

[w8liftinglady]

24. Oh,Hell..no-until they NEED the experience...at least for nurses

God,I wish Texas would unionize.

[rainbow4321]

Hospitals are recruiting from overseas

Mainly the Philippines. One local hospital went over and bragged about bringing back a few hundred nurses. Filipino docs are changing professions over there and becoming nurses so the US can recruit them and bring them over here.
My place is to the point of desperation where they are ignoring if any of these recruits are incompetent. All they want is someone with a pulse and a license.
The baby boomer retirement is going to hit my profession hard. Couple that with burnt out nurses who are leaving the profession as well as the fact the people cannot get INto nursing school (no nursing instructors=no classes available), and the whole US health care system is going to get fucked up even more.
The hospitals are all OK with this cuz they can pay these nurses much less than the nurses who work/were educated here in the US.

[w8liftinglady]

26. I have 2 indentured servants-excellent RNs,who have sold their souls for 2 years

I feel so sorry for them.They are dumped on,majorly.They are miserable.

[madrchsod]

25. no

older workers have more medical problems than younger workers and they also expect more money for their experience. the idea that business wants older workers is a myth

[cap]

36. Very true...

Older workers want the workforce to go back to working the way it used to. Remember the 8 hour day, a grievance policy, an HR that actually disciplined managers, an understanding that high turnover was a failure of MANAGEMENT, adequate sick leave (no going to work when you have a fever of 101 degrees), 50 year olds who took a week off to recover from back surgery, 50 year olds who came into work using a cane, a workplace that kept workers in their jobs until age 65 (you know all our financial planners show projections that want us to chunk a certain amount into savings each and every month until we are 65). We remember how our elders aged and retired when we were in our 20's.

[BluePatriot]

48. Amen

I am in my early 20s but I dream of a workplace that you describe...

*have had 2 people walk out w/o notice in the past two weeks, one a manager
**company of 50 people
***HR lady twiddles thumbs, probably blaming individuals for massive organizational problems

[cap]

57. I call it Red Queen school of management...

Off with their heads. When you do that often enough, workers leave without giving adequate notice.

Oh yeah, and whatever happened to having some security that when you give a two week notice, you can work the two weeks without being terminated on the spot? It makes it easier on your team to pick up where that worker left off. People actually stay in touch and give a little free consulting advice when there are future problems. Bet that doesn't happen in your company.

[shanti]

27. oh yeah....

there was a huge story in the sacramento bee about the 'brain drain' of california state employees. the state is now realizing that in order to retain skilled employees (the younger ones), they have to offer them more competitive wages.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. I've worked from home, being self-employed forever, it seems...

I used to do medical transcription and that job DEFINITELY went through a very intense period of outsourcing to India. It also very quickly returned to the States. I got phone call after phone call asking if I could help, as these clinics tried the outsourcing avenue but quickly found the quality of work dismal, not to mention the lack of confidentiality of patient records.

It's especially upsetting to read about the nursing situation - them bringing people from overseas. Geesh.

I can understand how, logically, some things can be outsourced well; but there are simply some things that it makes no sense whatsoever to do this, as the results are truly life-threatening, like in the healthcare industry.

Thanks to you all for sharing what you're seeing and experiencing.

[OneGrassRoot]

29. Now I'm obsessed, want to learn more about this

I was curious, now I really want to gain better insight into this situation, industry by industry. Which ones will likely continue the outsourcing trend, and which will likely face backlash and come back to their senses. I realize this "coming to the senses" may happen only after a disaster.

So many lists and articles about this are sponsored by organizations with a vested interest in propaganda.

Is anyone here involved with human resources, unionization, trendspotting, or anything else that you can point me to so I can get a better feel for this? I'm writing for a new workplace magazine and, while the focus was completely different, my inner Pollyanna now wants to incorporate these issues somehow. Like I said, I started off simply curious, now I'm obsessed. LOL.

Thanks again.

[radfringe]

30. a friend of mine

his workplace is going through cutbacks, many of the jobs/tasks are being outsourced to subcontractors

he asked his boss "what about loyalty towards the employees you do have?"

the boss replied "You want loyalty, go buy a dog"

[OneGrassRoot]

31. Unfrigginbelievable.... n/t

[bleedingheart]

35. Outsourcing doesn't work as well as it is hyped up to...

I personally think that once the "outsourcing trend" ends, we will find that work is best done where it can be easily managed. So offices in India will handle business in India...offices in the US will handle business in the US.

It is hard enough to manage an office and a company locally, try doing that ...AND...handling the things that have been outsourced. The biggest issue I have witnessed time and time again is that lack of planning, lack of proper communication (both ways) results in tasks taking twice if not four times as long.

[cap]

37. but you've broken the back of the worker...

there are no more complaints in the offices, no pressure for wage increases, so I say that outsourcing has succeeded. Nobody cares about quality of work. And frankly, in some offices, the quality is now so poor, it might as well go to the lowest cost producer. There's nothing being done any better for the premium paid here.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. I'd like to believe the same....

though that's no consolation at present for those impacted right now and can't find jobs.

Someone above talked about banding together. Surely some kind of movement can get started. Easier said than done. Look at how we've tried to "out" these thugs in this administration and we often feel we're beating our heads against a wall.

I don't know.....it just feels like so many things are at critical mass...but that can be a good thing, even if it all seems so hopeless right now.

[cap]

41. barbara ehrenreich & unitedprofessionals.org

is one organization

we are all too isolated...we are all sitting at home cruising the internet and not connecting with each other to demand a change.

The important thing is not to lose hope... things will change.
There have been 87,000 strikes in China over workplace issues. Things will change.

[OneGrassRoot]

47. Thank you very much! n/t

[leftofthedial]

42. nope

if you're over 40, don't bother looking

[lectrobyte]

46. Not really. If anything, in IT at least, there's still an incredible pressure

to move stuff overseas, or insource with H1B's.

[cgrindley]

52. Retiring boomers won't be replaced

by American labor, but by outsourcing their old jobs. Actually, outsourcing is a boomer concept. They're responsible for it. I think it's all about gaining the greatest return for shareholders. Sometimes, I actually hope that the market collapses.

[cap]

55. Dont blame a generation for its elite's mistakes

boomers are hit hard by outsourcing. Let's not divide ourselves but stand united. No child wants to see its parent lose their job. No parent wants to see its child lack a future. Everyone wants to work productively until they are 67 years old. I just dont see where the 55 to 67 year olds are going to work.

[B Calm]

56. The last time I felt secured in my job was under the Clinton administration.

Back then jobs were more plentiful.