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Anyone else notice this? The judges in the FLDS polygamy case

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:27 AM
Original message
Anyone else notice this? The judges in the FLDS polygamy case
divided along gender lines.

Is it a coincidence that the six Justices on the Texas Supreme Court and the three Appeals Court Justices who voted to send the children back to the ranch were ALL men –

and that the initial trial judge and the person who wrote the dissenting opinion on the Supreme Court were women? (Two men did join the dissent.)

In a very complicated, difficult case involving competing societal and moral values does the gender of the judge affect the outcome? Would there have been a different decision if there were more women among the justices?

And considering the huge numbers of women who have been graduating from law school over the last couple of decades, why is there still such an imbalance at the Appeals Court level and higher?

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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe the female grads are able to make a living as an attorney, something that disqualifies one
from seeking to be a judge.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh please
Harriet O'Neill joined the majority (as did the other dissenting judges) in the portion of the opinion as it applied to boys & young girls. She & the others dissented from the opinion as it applies to teenage girls.

So the decision really is: 9-0 as to boys & young girls, 6-3 as to teenage girls.

BTW, the 4th Court of Appeals in San Antonio is an all female appellate court & last week they ruled against CPS in the habeas cases pending in Bexar County.

dg
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The fact remains that the judges who accepted the FLDS arguments in full
were all men.

And this required the men in the Appeals Court to ignore their usual practice of not "re-trying facts" from the trial court, in which a woman judge happened to preside.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. It's not the Appeals Court or the Supreme Court's fault
The State simply did not prove their case. There are specific requirements & they have to show evidence on each one. They didn't do that. The Courts did not re-weigh or re-try the evidence. There was none there on the record & in the exhibits as to these women to begin with.

So, keep conveniently overlooking the female justices on the 4th Court of Appeals who also told the State the same thing & blame the men. Won't change the fact that the State failed to prove its case as required by statute.

dg

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KSinTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. It i s an interesting gender fault line
I suspect (and basing on an upthread comment) that it has as much to do with social mores as much as gender. I found it interesting the split along the teen/pre-pubesent children.
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. Because it's Texas!
and they haven't had a Democratic governor in 20 years.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why so few women judges
Many reasons and it is dependent on the jurisdiction.

First thing is although many women graduate from law school, many leave the "law" (more specifically litigation) when they start to have children. Litigation is a grind. Most judges come from a litigation background.

Also becoming a judge is political - you either run or get appointed. There are fewer woman politicians.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. My question about all of this still hasn't been answered. I thought
polygamy was illegal. Is that not so in Texas? Why haven't there been arrests for polygamy?
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. There's nothing illegal about having your wife and 3 mistresses living with you
Edited on Fri May-30-08 10:00 AM by Rosemary2205
they aren't legally married to all those women.

There are Muslims who immigrated to this country with thier wives and the US and most states make a special exception for that circumstance. Both marriages are recognized. To TECHNICALLY, polygamy is not illegal.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Technically, having more than one wife IS illegal in Texas and in most states.
But Texas authorities probably assume that the current law wouldn't stand up in Court if it were challenged.

On the other hand, you are correct that this doesn't apply to situations involving only one legal wife, as long as all the partners are at the age of consent.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Because none of these men tried to legally marry more than one wife.
That's what's illegal.
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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think the flds woman look like men in prairie-drag.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thank you for that enlightening addition to the discusion
:wtf:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. I hadn't looked at that breakdown. Thank you for pointing that out.
Very interesting that the men were ok with sending the girls back, and the women weren't. Do you have ages for the Justices? Wondering if that factored in also. Thank you for posting this as I hadn't seen that.

As to why the imbalance, imho, sexism still reigns.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. It's more than the Judges. In debates about this here and other places.
I noticed that the majority of people wanting to give CPS the George Bush like ability to do as they damned well pleased. That the US Constitution is just a damned piece paper that has no place in a custody hearing were women.

The people asserting that what best protects the children is the law and without due process no child can be safe. The majority were men.

I think this just due to the different priorities of the genders. I'm not saying that men will not make sacrafices for thier children. But it's not an instinct with them. They will not instinctively forsake the entire world for the sake of their child. Men are more cognisant of the sacrafices they will make for the children.
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What are you talking about?
The constitution relates to this custody dispute? I'm confused.

Maybe women are more emotional. But also realize the women judges also agreed with the men when it came to the young boys and girls. These kids (based on the evidence to date) were in no immediate danger. So the state can't come in and remove them.

This is a tricky difficult case. No easy answer.

But I will say this -- if the state can come into a private home and seize the kids, it better have a damn good reason and evidence to back it up.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Dissenting Opinion....
http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/historical/2008/may/080391d.htm


In this case, the Department of Family and Protective Services presented evidence that “there was a danger to the physical health or safety” of pubescent girls on the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) Ranch from a pattern or practice of sexual abuse, that “the urgent need for protection required the immediate removal” of those girls, and that the Department made reasonable efforts, considering the obstacles to information-gathering that were presented, to prevent removal and return those children home. Tex. Fam. Code § 262.201(b)(1)–(3). As to this endangered population, I do not agree with the Court that the trial court abused its discretion in allowing the Department to retain temporary conservatorship until such time as a permanency plan designed to ensure each girl’s physical health and safety could be approved. See id. §§ 263.101–.102. On this record, however, I agree that there was no evidence of imminent “danger to the physical health or safety” of boys and pre-pubescent girls to justify their removal from the YFZ Ranch, and to this extent I join the Court’s opinion. Id. § 262.201(b)(1).

Evidence presented in the trial court indicated that the Department began its investigation of the YFZ Ranch on March 29th, when it received a report of sexual abuse of a sixteen-year-old girl on the property. On April 3rd, the Department entered the Ranch along with law-enforcement personnel and conducted nineteen interviews of girls aged seventeen or under, as well as fifteen to twenty interviews of adults. In the course of these interviews, the Department learned there were many polygamist families living on the Ranch; a number of girls under the age of eighteen living on the Ranch were pregnant or had given birth; both interviewed girls and adults considered no age too young for a girl to be “spiritually” married; and the Ranch’s religious leader, “Uncle Merrill,” had the unilateral power to decide when and to whom they would be married. Additionally, in the trial court, the Department presented “Bishop’s Records” — documents seized from the Ranch — indicating the presence of several extremely young mothers or pregnant “wives”<1> on the Ranch: a sixteen-year-old “wife” with a child, a sixteen-year-old pregnant “wife,” two pregnant fifteen-year-old “wives,” and a thirteen-year-old who had conceived a child. The testimony of Dr. William John Walsh, the families’ expert witness, confirmed that the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints accepts the age of “physical development” (that is, first menstruation) as the age of eligibility for “marriage.” Finally, child psychologist Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry testified that the pregnancy of the underage children on the Ranch was the result of sexual abuse because children of the age of fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen are not sufficiently emotionally mature to enter a healthy consensual sexual relationship or a “marriage.”

Evidence presented thus indicated a pattern or practice of sexual abuse of pubescent girls, and the condoning of such sexual abuse, on the Ranch<2> — evidence sufficient to satisfy a “person of ordinary prudence and caution” that other such girls were at risk of sexual abuse as well. Id. § 262.201(b). This evidence supports the trial court’s finding that “there was a danger to the physical health or safety” of pubescent girls on the Ranch. Id. § 262.201(b)(1); see id. § 101.009 (“‘Danger to the physical health or safety of a child’ includes exposure of the child to loss or injury that jeopardizes the physical health or safety of the child without regard to whether there has been an actual prior injury to the child.”); cf. Tex. Dep’t of Human Servs. v. Boyd, 727 S.W.2d 531, 533 (Tex. 1987) (affirming the termination of parental rights for “endanger . . . the physical well-being of child,” and holding: “While we agree that ‘endanger’ means more than a threat of metaphysical injury or the possible ill effects of a less-than-ideal family environment, it is not necessary that the conduct be directed at the child or that the child actually suffers injury. Rather, ‘endanger’ means to expose to loss or injury; to jeopardize.”). Thus, the trial court did not abuse its discretion in finding that the Department met section 262.201(b)(1)’s requirements.

Notwithstanding this evidence of a pattern or practice of sexual abuse of pubescent girls on the Ranch, the court of appeals held — and the Court agrees today — that the trial court abused its discretion in awarding temporary conservatorship to the Department because the Department failed to attempt legal steps, short of taking custody, to protect the children. Based on the language of section 262.201 of the Family Code, I disagree. Subsections (b)(2) and (b)(3) of section 262.201 require the Department to demonstrate that “reasonable efforts, consistent with the circumstances and providing for the safety of the child, were made to eliminate or prevent the child’s removal,” Tex. Fam. Code § 262.201(b)(2), and that “reasonable efforts have been made to enable the child to return home,” id. § 262.201(b)(3). The Court suggests, consistent with the mothers’ arguments in the court of appeals below, that the Department failed to adequately justify its failure to seek less-intrusive alternatives to taking custody of the children: namely, seeking restraining orders against alleged perpetrators under section 262.1015 of the Family Code, or other temporary orders under section 105.001 of the Family Code. Id. §§ 262.1015, 105.001.

However, the Family Code requires only that the Department make “reasonable efforts, consistent with the circumstances” to avoid taking custody of endangered children. Id. § 262.201(b)(2). Evidence presented in the trial court indicated that the actions of the children and mothers precluded the Department from pursuing other legal options. When the Department arrived at the YFZ Ranch, it was treated cordially and allowed access to children, but those children repeatedly pled “the Fifth” in response to questions about their identity, would not identify their birth-dates or parentage, refused to answer questions about who lived in their homes, and lied about their names — sometimes several times. Answers from parents were similarly inconsistent: one mother first claimed that four children were hers, and then later avowed that they were not. Furthermore, the Department arrived to discover that a shredder had been used to destroy documents just before its arrival.

Thwarted by the resistant behavior of both children and parents on the Ranch, the Department had limited options. Without knowing the identities of family members or of particular alleged perpetrators, the Department could not have sought restraining orders under section 262.1015 as it did not know whom to restrain. See id. § 262.1015. Likewise, it could not have barred any family member from access to a child without filing a verified pleading or affidavit, which must identify clearly the parent and the child to be separated. See id. § 105.001(c)(3) (“Except on a verified pleading or an affidavit . . . an order may not be rendered . . . excluding a parent from possession of or access to a child.”). Furthermore, the trial court heard evidence that the mothers themselves believed that the practice of underage “marriage” and procreation was not harmful for young girls; the Department’s witnesses testified that although the Department “always wants kids to be with their parents,” they will only reunify children with their parents after “it’s determined that know and can express what it was in the first place that caused harm to their children.” This is some evidence that the Department could not have reasonably sought to maintain custody with the mothers. Thus, evidence presented to the trial court demonstrated that the Department took reasonable efforts, consistent with extraordinarily difficult circumstances, to protect the children without taking them into custody. Id.

The record demonstrates that there was evidence to support the trial court’s order as it relates to pubescent female children. Although I agree with the Court that the trial court abused its discretion by awarding custody of male children and pre-pubescent female children to the Department as temporary conservator, I would hold that the trial court did not abuse its discretion as to the demonstrably endangered population of pubescent girls, and to this extent would grant the Department’s petition for mandamus. Because the Court does not, I respectfully dissent.



______________________

Harriet O’Neill

Justice





OPINION DELIVERED: May 29, 2008


<1> Although referred to as “wives” in the Bishop’s Records, these underage girls are not legally married; rather, the girls are “spiritually” married to their husbands, typically in polygamous households with multiple other “spiritual” wives. Subject to limited defenses, a person who “engages in sexual contact” with a child younger than seventeen who is not his legal spouse is guilty of a sexual offense under the Texas Penal Code. See Tex. Penal Code § 21.11(a)–(b). Those who promote or assist such sexual contact, see id. § 7.02(a)(2), or cause the child to engage in sexual contact, see id. § 21.11(a)(1), may also be criminally liable.

<2> The Family Code defines “abuse” to include “sexual conduct harmful to a child’s mental, emotional, or physical welfare” — including offenses under section 21.11 of the Penal Code — as well as “failure to make a reasonable effort to prevent sexual conduct harmful to a child.” Tex. Fam. Code § 261.001(1)(E)–(F). In determining whether there is a “continuing danger to the health or safety” of a child, the Family Code explicitly permits a court to consider “whether the household to which the child would be returned includes a person who . . . has sexually abused another child.” Id. § 262.201(d).
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Thank you. And don't you wonder why this is the DISSENTING opinion?
How could the majority deny the risk to those pubescent girls?
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Concurring in part & dissenting in part, actually nt
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Which begs the question.
Why did the majority not acknowledge the risk to the pubescent girls?
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Because the State didn't prove it nt
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The trial Court tried the facts, and found enough evidence.
The Appeals Court is not supposed to re-try the facts, but it did so anyway. I think both the Appeals Court and the Supreme Court took the easy way out.

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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. The adversary hearing was a kangaroo court
and no evidence was put into the record that met the statutory requirements. The facts were not re-tried because there were no facts supporting removal in the record.

dg
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. I hadn't noticed that
(I was reading today though that the return of the children isn't the end, the parents have to accept further intervention, such as unannounced CPS visits. Evidently the whole thing was a kind of "deal" that was worked out)

I think that men, the primary law givers, have certainly affected legal outcomes because of gender based presumption as well as gender entitlement. For centuries. I think women would be more aware of gender bias, and far more aware of gender entitlement, since they wouldn't the recipients of said entitlement ( Male gender entitlement might answer your second question) But that's just what I think.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. i posted this info when the Appeals Court decision came down.
gender lines AND party lines too. all Repukes on the panel and all men. there are two female judges on the Appeals Court, and they are both Dems. as to why they did not participate, i don't know if they were asked to be on the panel.
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