Girl, 12, told she can't play ball with boys

[Maine-ah]

You play ball like a girl.

That used to be an insult. In Beaverton, Oregon, it's becoming more like a fantasy.


Jaime Nared, a 12-year-old girl who stands 6-foot-1, has been told she can no longer play on the boys team of which she has been a member since the second grade, according to a report on the Web site of The Oregonian. Curiously, the timing of her ban came in the wake of a 30-point effort against an all-boys team.

"She scored 30 points," Jaime's mom, Reiko Williams, told The Oregonian. "I remember one play. She stole the ball, dribbled up court and made a behind-the-back pass to a teammate. He missed the lay-in, and she grabbed the rebound and put it in. I think it was just too much for some of those parents.

"The next day, she came home and said they wouldn't let her play with the boys anymore."

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8178466?GT1=39002

[monmouth]

1. LOL. I just posted this in the lounge. Couldn't believe it. Some men

are such wusses and I mean the fathers (I guess the mothers too)...Imagine a twelve-year old girl being a threat instead of encouraging this phenom...

[SharonAnn]

13. What "deja vu". When Iwas 12, I also was told that I couldn't play basketball with

the boys anymore. My dad was the one who told me this. He said it "wasn't appropriate". Just neighborhood pickup, and the basketball court was in our family's back yard. I was 5' 6" at that time (grew another 4 inches later) and loved to play basketball. My younger brothers? Not so much.

Anyway, all of a sudden at age 12, I was told lots of things I couldn't do any longer. One of them was that I couldn't mow the lawn any longer, that was "boy's work". What struck me as funny then, and still does, was that we had just bought a power mower. Before that, we had to use a rotary push mower and there was a steep side hill to maneuver. So it was OK to do it when it was physically very difficult, but when it was easier, then it was not OK?

Guess it was because it had an engine. Everyone knows those are "guy things".

Anyway, I was always the one who played with my brothers' chemistry sets, erector sets, played around building things out of wood, etc. And I'm very "feminine", just have an engineering brain.

[FlyingSquirrel]

23. That's funny - my daughter mows the lawn and my son doesn't

She is 13 and he is 11. He has tried, but doesn't do a very good job. Of course I didn't say he COULDN'T, but he just doesn't like doing it. Maybe when he gets older.

[ccharles000]

52. When I was 13 my mom let me walk around the block...

my sister is 17 and is not allowed to walk around the block.

[ensho]

58. they usually tell girls they can't play after they develop breasts

not joking.

[femrap]

34. I wonder if you know that the word, 'wuss'

is a combination of the words, 'woman' and 'puss.'

The Fragile Male Ego is a problem that sometimes I believe will lead to the end of our civilization. To be beaten by a 'girl/woman' is the most feared act by most males. If a girl/woman can do the task, then it just can't be that difficult...so where does that leave the little basketball boys? Humiliated....and that is simply NOT allowed.

I hope she can remain playing.

[Echo In Light]

42. Chauvinism/jingoism still runs rampant in our "modern" society

It manifests among either gender, and in different ways, although men have primarily been the ones to fuck everything up as drastically as it is. Here's to hoping women can bring something better to civilization aside from assimilating to long standing male constructs and belief-value systems: imitating man's most loathsome traits and characteristics won't help.

[femrap]

71. Our civilization has OD'd on masculine....

time to stop the violence and oppression and consider empathy and solutions via words. But I gotta admit, I've met males that understand only one thing....just like mules...you need a 2 x 4 to get their attention.

There are some men who 'get it.' And they need to step up to the bullies as well.

So many woman are raised in fear...hard to overcome. I don't see many women acting like males...do you?

[drbtg1]

56. Fast Times at Ridgemont High...

...defined wuss differently.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083929/quotes

No offense, but I'll use Cameron Crowe's (via Mike Damone) definition. ;)

[cbc5g]

75. As a guy If you hurt a girl you will be punished by the guys in school

There are very specific reasons why they separate boys and girls sports.

[Selatius]

2. The other parents are a bunch of fucking pansies. nt

[LisaL]

29. I sympathize with her problem. However, no mixed team rule

is no mixed team rule.
A boy wouldn't be allowed on a female team, so why should a girl be allowed on a male team?

[Scout]

40. where was the "no mixed team" rule while she was playing for years?

funny how they didn't have that rule until she started showing up the boys...

:eyes:

[Echo In Light]

43. Rules are changed when the fragile egos of "gladiators" are ruffled

[newmajority]

3. One would think that a 6 foot 1 12 year old would be an asset to any basketball team

regardless of gender. Considering that she's not done growing yet though, she might have a future in the WNBA, if she wants it. Then she can laugh at all the dumb jock boys who were jealous.

[Systematic Chaos]

5. She's already stated her future goal. It's not the WNBA.

It's the NBA. :D

[stevedeshazer]

17. I hope she makes it

As a former basketball player, more power to her.

When I was twelve I was 4-foot-something.

Good for her.

[tblue37]

19. God, I love those pictures of Obama addressing crowds the size of a

freakin' city.

[stevedeshazer]

22. At an estimated 75,000, this crowd would be Oregon's sixth largest city.

And that basketball girl could see over most of them, too.

:)

[nolabels]

31. If she has enough skills they will have to let her in

She may change her mind when she gets older though. At any rate that would be a fun lawsuit to watch if any of the cards lined up that way

At any rate, hope she has fulfilling basketball adventure :-)

[LisaL]

32. I don't think she would win any lawsuits.

Because it seems to me, if you have to allow females on males teams, you would also have to allow males on females teams.

[nolabels]

33. I don't think there are many males trying to get into the WNBA

Not to be smart ass or anything but i think it might be about two different things here. At the present time the whole thing is hyperbole. As for my take, it would be about the NBA separating their pride from the money. For the aspiring star it might be the idea of how people are categorized and what a person can attain from it.

Then there could be that other problem, she might think girl basketball players are not tough enough. Our daughter picks fights with our son all the time just for the fun of it.

[Winterblues]

54. While you may be correct that a few women could take some punishment

Very few MEN would be willing to dole out that punishment to a woman as they would a man. It certainly would inhibit the men's playing style..

[nolabels]

66. I don't understand if this sarcasm or not but my understanding of basketball..........

if played correctly is of a team game. It is a team game in which contact is allowed but is not actually any part of the game accept in calling penalties and fouls. They don't tackle the guy with the ball (at least officially). The game is starting to evolve into more and more of skill game every year, one in which the ball takes the pounding instead of the people playing it


Coach John Wooden Provides Life Lesson

Monday, October 1, 2007
(snip)
The rest, of course, is history — and what a history! Under Coach Wooden, UCLA won an unprecedented 10 NCAA championships, including the seven consecutive from 1966 through 1973! This included one of the most amazing streaks in all sports history, 38 straight NCAA tournament victories. 38 straight! That’s truly unbelievable. But even that is overshadowed by the 88 straight wins, including four consecutive 30-0 seasons. UCLA, during the Wooden years at Pauley Pavilion, won 149 out of 151 games. I remember that time so well — living just a short distance from the campus, always assuming that the Bruins would naturally win every game they played. And as long as this diminutive, soft spoken, but authoritative gentleman was there, they practically did. John Wooden is the first person to be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame as both player and coach. And it clearly wasn't due to physical size or bombastic approach or temper tantrums or even sly, uncanny recruiting methods. No, it was due to a combination of integrity, quiet hard work, devotion to details and fundamentals, and faith. Faith in himself, his teammates and players, and in God.
(snip)
http://www.newsmax.com/boone/john_wooden/2007/10/01/37061.html

[Winterblues]

67. Have you been watching any of the NBA playoffs?

Apparently not.:shrug: I don't think very many women could handle what is being dished out.

[nolabels]

70. Yes i have been watching all them i possibly could

I work four nights a week and only get to watch on week-ends and listen during work days. Guess you might have not been looking the same places i have about tough girls and how tough can be if they want to. The NBA playoffs don't look all that rough to me. I even think they even look tame compared to some things. I personally don't like violence because it seems kind of wasteful and infantile but it's out there if you are really looking. You might even remember this thing called Rollerderby


http://www.womenboxing.com/


http://www.derbydolls.com/la/

[femrap]

35. Given that we live in a Patriarchy where

the masculine is the rule, I don't see why males should be on a female team. I know some feel this is 'reverse discrimination' but again...Patriarchy rules our culture. The feminine is looked down upon as weak, coy, and obedient....and always smiling.

If she is physically up to the game, (and it's obvious she is) she should be allowed to play.

[malakai2]

38. Okay, so patriarchy aside...

When the boys hit puberty and suddenly she's playing against boys who are taller, faster, etc., if it turns out she's no longer up to the game, should she just take a seat? Or would that be patriarchy ruling our culture?

[femrap]

72. Patriarchy does reign over our society....you

just can't put it aside. It's reality.

She'll play the game until she no longer wants to or can't be effective....isn't that 'the pursuit of happiness' that this fucked up country of ours is supposed to be about????

[malakai2]

79. Two points

When she reaches a point where her current physical advantages disappear and she's playing against boys (or men, whenever it happens) that grow to be bigger, faster, stronger, etc., is that an issue of patriarchy or biology? Sure some glass ceilings still exist, but sometimes the ladder ends well short of any ceiling. At the high end of sports, it's usually the people way out on the right side of the distribution curve of physical abilities that excel, and in humans that typically means the top fraction of a certain sex dominates physical sport. That's why things like women's soccer and basketball exist, not because sports are inherently patriarchal in a He-Man Woman Hater Club organizational way.

But in this case, we aren't dealing with fully or almost fully mature individuals. When it comes to competitions involving kids, early developers are occasionally kicked up a class or even prevented from competing because their early development grants them such an advantage over everyone else. Happens to boys and girls, happens often enough that when it's boys being removed from competition it doesn't make the news. Given how often it happens, I'm inclined to believe that is what happened here. The rule they used to remove her from competition may not have been designed to be used they way it was in this case, but it did accomplish some leveling of the playing field for everyone else. Should they have granted her special treatment not afforded other early developers and let her continue to beat the hell out of lesser competition?

Another a question then, because you are opposed to the idea of opening up women's divisions to men for what I'm guessing are unfair competition issues, what principle makes it okay to open up boys' divisions to girls that might have developmental advantages that confer to them the same kind of competitive advantage? Who does that help?

[femrap]

80. Boys who have better skills than their age

group are benched??? Where...on Mars?

Our culture will NOT withstand a girl beating boys...it hurts the Fragile Male Ego. I remember my grandmother telling me to lose at games so the boys would feel good and not get pissy and pout or throw something. It was to keep the 'peace.'

Boys have testosterone which results in muscle development, strength, and sometimes when there is too much of the hormone...violence and acne. Girls have estrogen and progesterone...primarily so to give birth and to provide subsequent nourishment to the newborn. What is wrong with our culture is that Violence and brute strength is highly valued and diplomacy, empathy and compassion is for 'sissies.'

Our culture is on macho overdrive. And I guess that's why the world is in the state it is...the Earth is being raped for every damn natural resource it has. War can now destroy the planet with the use of nuclear bombs. Look at the world and see how women are treated...I truly hate the fact of putting gas in my tank that comes from Saudi Arabia, the most belligerent toward women with their Wahabi form of Islam.

One 12-year old girl wants to play basketball with the team she has been playing with for the past 5 years and now she can't. She learned her lesson early in life, didn't she? Only the boys get to do what they want.

'Who does that help?' You ask...who fucking cares. Let the kids play ball...maybe it's time that the boys learn a lesson for a change...like, Wow! Girls can be good at things, even better than me.

What a concept.

Now go read a book on the topic of gender differences and development....I'm not getting paid to enlighten or educate.

[Maine-ah]

37. the thing is though is that she's been playing with them for years

and now that she's unusually tall for her age and sex, and she's a much better player, suddenly the rule of no girls on the boys team comes into effect.

I think there is something rather wrong about that.

[Kitty Herder]

76. Good for her!

I hope she is not stopped from accomplishing that goal.

[ProfessorGAC]

45. That's The Same Thing I Thought

Geez, how many coaches wouldn't want a 6'1" 12 year old on the team. And obviously she's not a tall, lanky klutz. The story in the OP says she led a fast break. Can't be klutzy and do that.
The Professor

[TheWraith]

4. If it's a size issue, why not just bump her up a couple of grades?

Have her play on one of the teenage teams.

Seriously, 6' 1" and 12 years old? What's that girl eating?

[Maine-ah]

6. that was my thought too

but there are probably age restrictions for the older teams, just like they have age restrictions for things like T-ball.

[gristy]

8. Younger players can always play on an older team.

Not an issue.

[sandnsea]

7. Apparently it's a boob issue

She gets on the court and all those boobs suddenly turn into gentlemen and just move out of the way to let the lady pass. :eyes:

[pnorman]

18. "a boob issue"

Funny, I thought this might lead the discussion in another direction! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

pnorman

[LisaL]

25. The article explains it.

[smoochy]

9. Go Girl!

I watched a news video of her yesterday, it was something to see her play! Granted, it looked like she was playing against midgets with her size. STILL, she had a lot of talent! The WNBA even sent her some shirts and accolades!

[juno jones]

10. From the story:

'They weren't fouling her as hard'. WTF? You aren't supposed to foul. That's why it's called a foul. Or are rules just for girls?

[Fleshdancer]

11. I hope the boys are pissed off at their parents over this

Most teams don't do so well when the player responsible for making 30pts in a game (not to mention the amount of steals and rebounds) is suddenly gone. This girl has been on this team since she was in second grade and I have no doubt she busted her ass to do so.

Saying that the boys somehow played "nicer" because of her is both insulting and bullsh*t. Show me one opposing team that didn't get pissed when the girl kicked their butt on the court. I highly doubt they were ever gentle...boys never are in competitive situations like this. Besides, why would the parents of the boys on her team care? It's not like her teammates are suppose to be rough with her...kinda goes against the concept of "teamwork" doesn't it?

[Kitty Herder]

77. Totally agree.

With all your points, but especially this one: It's incredibly insulting bullshit to suggest that the boys somehow played nicer.

[bean fidhleir]

12. I hope her parents have had her checked for a pituitary tumor

Six one at age 12 is for sure abnormal. The last thing she needs is to be like poor Sandy Allen - 7ft 7 and disabled.

[Blue Poppy]

15. Just because one is that tall at that age doesn't mean they have a tumor...

I am female and 6'2". I was always tall. I can still fit into my 6th grade uniform. I don't have pituitary issues. Both my parents are tall, simple as that.

[bean fidhleir]

20. But statistically a tumor is more likely, given that sex/age/size nexus

I'm glad your height is the normal product of your heritage, but I think if this girl's isn't, she should get prompt treatment to stop further growth. Would you disagree?

[LisaL]

28. Stop further growth? Are you kidding?

In basketball, the taller you are, the better it is. Her sister plays basketball, and apparently her father played basketball too.
A tall female does not equal female with a tumor.
She is genetically programmed to being tall.

[bean fidhleir]

39. I think you missed the word "if" (nt)

[stevedeshazer]

21. I'm always astonished that women who are tall aren't supposed to be tall.

My wife is 5'11", I'm 6' 0", our son is 6'2".

No big deal, you'd think, but Ms. D gets the stares and comments all the time.

Bet you do, too. Aren't you supposed to be short? You're a girl!

I've never understood this.

[jberryhill]

27. Is your wife 12 years old? /nt

[stevedeshazer]

30. I think you know the answer to that n/t

[havocmom]

73. Girls commonly have a pre-pubescent growth spurt. With boys, it comes after puberty sets in

My sister and I both hit our adult height at 11 and 13 respectively. We were both tall for women until recent years when the young ladies started really getting taller.

My daughter spent most of her childhood taller than her peers, but she had her big growth spurt, hit puberty a bit early and ended up rather short for my side of the family (about right for her father's side)

Girls get their height before boys do.

[girl gone mad]

16. I agree.

Much more growth could seriously compromise her health.

Developmentally, she's taller than the average full-grown man and she probably doesn't belong on a team with prepubescent boys (I don't see how that could even be much fun for her). Depending on her maturity, maybe they could let her play with the older kids.

[LisaL]

26. Height is genetic.

Her sister is heading off to college on basketball scholarship, so I think you are way off base.

[d_b]

14. lol

you play ball like a boy!

[nichomachus]

24. Even in adult leagues

they separate people by ability. I know in the softball leagues around here, they won't let you play in the C league, if you're considered an A player. You need to play in an A league.

[dflprincess]

36. Several years ago one of my nephew's had an assistant coach on his baseball team

(little league) who's biggest insult was to tell the boys they played like girls or call them ladies. I complained to the coach about it as did a couple of the mothers but this didn't help.

One game they played a team that had a girl on it. She could hit, she could run, she could pitch and she could field. One of, if not the best, ballplayer I ever saw in their league (they were 11 or 12 at the time). It also gave me the opportunity to say to the butt head coach at the end of the game "I bet you wish they played like girls now."

[Scout]

41. "I bet you wish they played like girls now."

excellent! i would have loved to see/hear that!

[JTFrog]

44. My Ex told my son one day he threw like a girl. I went into my closet and pulled out my glove and

told him to come play catch with me.

He lasted three throws. When he was finally done howling at me I told him he better think twice about ever using that kind of language around my son again.

[Echo In Light]

46. The crux of the problem is how language reflects mindset

One can create social situations where certain views aren't favorable to espouse, but of course it doesn't mean that people aren't thinking it. And why are some women attracted to men who abide such negative views of women anyhow? ...there's a big, ugly can of cultural worms to open.

[JTFrog]

47. Why do I find your post incredibly insulting?

I really hope you were going off on some vague line of thought not related to me. Otherwise you're post is totally inappropriate and unappreciated.

[ProfessorGAC]

48. I Think Echo Was Agreeing With You!

Not sure why you were insulted? I read the thread and got the impression that Echo was amplifyiing what you had said.
The Professor

[JTFrog]

50. "And why are some women attracted to men who abide such negative views of women anyhow?"

Perhaps I'm overly defensive. Hence why I was asking clarification of whether that was just a general thought or more direct.

As you can see by my reaction to his words (the only time I'd ever heard him say such a thing), it was unacceptable to teach this "negative view" to my son so I offered them both an alternate view.

I never found it attractive and suggesting otherwise would indeed be insulting to me.

However, I would agree that there may be some who fit that observation, as humans of both gender tend to be attracted by the darnedest things.

[BlooInBloo]

57. Nah - you're right - it was a "they ask for it" post in the guise of agreeing with you.

[ProfessorGAC]

60. You Serious Bloo?

I sure didn't see it that way.
GAC

[BlooInBloo]

61. Yup. I could be wrong of course, I just don't preface my statements with the disclaimer...

because that would add useless overhead to all of my statements.

[ProfessorGAC]

62. Well Color Me Surprised

GAC

[BlooInBloo]

63. :P

[Kitty Herder]

78. I agree. That's how I read it. nt

[Echo In Light]

49. It's a complicated topic. No offense intended

[seabeyond]

51. i was proud of son the other day. at 13 talking about how he placed in the mile

he included the females as part of the competition, there being a gal that beat him and other guys (the good runners) and didnt see them in a different class. i swam competitive for a couple decades and beat all the boys.... have taught sons that a competitor comes in both gender. dont slight

we have also talked about how male uses "female" to insult each other. another thing my boys recognize and dont do. at a young age with discussion was hard for them to understand but now at his age he clearly sees what i talk about

the girls and women dont think, as much as the boys and men that do this.

it is the male bonding of trashing female to feel male. it truly is just pathetic when i see grown, supposely mature males reduce themselves to this.

[noonwitch]

53. At 12 and 6'1", she's probably a lot taller than the boys

Boys hit their growth spurt about a year or two later.

[BlooInBloo]

55. That *is* pretty weak - at that age there isn't enough difference to justify it.

[FormerOstrich]

59. Beaverton, Oregon

Home of NIKE Headquarters.

The home of the huge university with the theme of you can do anything.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. "so they weren't fouling her hard."

Hmm.

[Goblinmonger]

81. I found that wording interesting

And I think the concept is BS. My son is a pretty good wrestler and is in middle school. He has wrestled against girls in tournaments and didn't "take it easy" on her. He did get one caution for tripping the girl he was wrestling (she was up on one leg and his trip resulted in a face plant by her) which I don't think he would have received if he had been wrestling a boy, but HE never changed his style of wrestling.

[hokies4ever]

65. Gender separation in sports is considered acceptable in our society

Until that changes, these folks will have an argument to stand on. Youth sports for parents is like politics for many people. Win at all costs, no matter what the results.

[Fox Mulder]

68. You'd think any basketball team would want her on their team.

Especially if she is 6-1 at 12 years old.

[Westegg]

69. Gosh, I assumed females ruled in "Beaverton."

[cbc5g]

74. You can say patriarch society or misogyny but it wasn't just male parents there

When I go to games, most of those cheering for the boys are moms. At 12 years old the hormones are changing in boys and girls and most, if not all schools separate boys and girls sports. There are gender specific reasons for this. Most would say boys shouldn't play in girls leagues, so why should it be any different the other way around?

"They said the problem was the boys were playing differently against her because she was a girl," Franzer said, according to the paper. "They'd been taught to not push a girl, so they weren't fouling her hard, and the focus had shifted from playing basketball to noticing a girl was on the floor with them.


I know when I was 12 playing with a girl vs a boy was much different. Thats part of growing up and part of how we work as a species. We are different and to say differently is just plain ignorant.

[Reader Rabbit]

82. Why is there always this ridiculous assumption that women are fragile?

That they can't take the "punishment" of playing with the big boys? Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ, women were freakin' designed to squeeze something the size of a watermelon through an opening the size of a coin, and you want to tell me females can't take "punishment"?

Sounds like typical macho B.S. to me. There will always be some guys who think they should get perks and special treatment, simply because they were born with testicles instead of ovaries.