Nationalize the Oil Industry into a truly "Big Oil"

[Divine Discontent]

Poll question: Nationalize the Oil Industry into a truly "Big Oil"

As in US0 - United States Oil. And just pay the companies for their brands and let them sell off their stores to private contractors who would keep the name BP and Shell to sell overpriced goods while pumping Gov't produced gas.

They have shown they are unable to keep themselves from robbing the gold, if you will, from the country - and destroying our markets with their hyper-inflation of the energy they produce, which in turn has made everything go up in cost.

I agree with Rep. Maxine Waters, even though she was so upset she couldn't get the word 'nationalize' out, and since we've been so focused upon socialized medicine, that the government should take over the oil companies.

Anyone else care about this? I find it shocking, downright SHOCKING, that 20 years ago, I paid about a buck for a loaf of cheap bread whereas today I pay about 75-100% more for that same loaf, yet for gasoline, 20 years ago I paid 18 bucks to fillup, and today I pay 60.

Their profit margin clearly has to have increased - oh wait - it has! BIG OIL made over $100 billion in profit last year.

They must be held accountable, if anything. Their profit over the past 8 years should be given a luxury tax of 50% or something - but I'm really for nationalizing it - they have shown an inability to be fair with the gift that not every country has - which is privatized gas distributors.



New Obama Items Weekly!
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[Solon]

1. Even if we nationalized it, how would they control the prices of most of the oil we import?

You have to remember that even if we kept every single drop of domestic oil for domestic use, it would account for about 10% of what we consume per day.

[Divine Discontent]

5. first thing

is the invasion force in Iraq. how many millions of barrels a day are being used to be there. but, more so, the strongest point is it's not lost on me as a regular joe - that their profits have risen dramatically with the price of gas at the pump - just because the price of oil goes up, it shouldn't mean their profit margin goes up, too.

[baldguy]

8. The price of oil is being driven up by the cost of production.

Its being driven by the cost of speculation in the oil futures market.

[Divine Discontent]

11. right - so there's part of the 300% increase in the past 7 years

and the rest is their profit margin ballooning. Something costing more to make, does not make more profit for a company unless you raise your margin. They clearly have.

[Solon]

18. It could be a combination of factors...

They also aren't investing as much money into exploration or drilling more holes as much as they have in the past, that would account for some of the profit margin, because they aren't passing the savings from that onto the customers.

[Andy823]

16. You are right.

And that's where we need to start regulating how it is traded. Congress needs to set guidelines, or if possible remove it from the trading floor. Speculators have no right to make a killing on oil prices while the average american can not afford the continuing rise in fuel costs.

This is a world wide problem, and all the leaders of the world need to get together on this and put a stop to the outrageous prices that people have to pay for fuel, energy, and most of all food!

[JCMach1]

10. Turn our stategic reserve into what amounts to a hedge against prices...

Time to perhaps muscle deals at a particular price level!

[Solon]

13. The Strategic reserve has about 703.4 million barrels in it...

In 2004, the US consumed about 20 million barrels A DAY. That means the reserve has enough oil for a little over 35 days. Yeah, that will help. :eyes:

http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/spr/spr-facts.html

[Divine Discontent]

54. good idea, also! lots of strong points - hope they won't let this issue go, gas $ is killing us eom

[Solon]

70. The Strategic reserve isn't big enough to make a dent in gas prices...

it may lower the price a few cents per gallon for a few weeks, perhaps even a year, but after that, well, it'll be empty.

[electropop]

2. Communism is takeover of industry by government; fascism is takeover of government by industry

In the end, both extremes wrap around to the same result: all money and power concentrated in a few hands.

[kenny blankenship]

12. I'll take whatever's behind Door Number 3, thx

[Solon]

29. That's frankly stupid and simplistic, also wrong, but don't let that penetrate your armor of...

stupidity. :eyes:

[electropop]

41. You have clearly expressed your counter-argument, which is...?

Think about it. Every major political "ism" (fascism, capitalism, communism, conservatism) taken to its extremes, boils down to the same thing: another trick by the rich and powerful to take everything they can grab from the rest of us.

I would point out that "democracy" does not end in an "ism." It is not inherently tied to any of the big ones, and in fact is a natural enemy of all of them.

[Solon]

46. Many nations have nationalized industries and haven't fallen into any extremes you talk...

about. Having a public industry, whether bought out or initially set up by a government isn't an example of any "ism" but could be just plain common sense. A classic example would be public utilities. Also, in addition to this, don't confuse economic systems with political ones, socialism, communism, capitalism, all can exist within democracies and aren't, by themselves, in opposition to it. However, the key here that needs to be looked out for is corruption within government, which can subjugate democracy itself.

[electropop]

48. I am not opposed to nationalization on principle, for example I think health care is ready for that.

We do need to be very cautious however. At a time when the government is completely overrun by corruption, the results of giving it any new powers could be disastrous. Let's see if our government can behave any more responsibly after the Democratic takeover, and then consider drastic options for new powers.

[Greyhound]

59. That is not Communism, that is just another form of authoritarianism

declaring itself to be Communism. Just as we declare our government a Democracy, while it is owned by and works only for the authoritarian ruling class, despite it's citizens wishes.

[underpants]

3. Airlines too

why not? It's not like we could do worse.

[kenny blankenship]

4. You will get us all killed

Anyway the asking price would literally be the World plus the Moon times Eternity, so forget being able to compensate the shareholders according the the takings provision of the Constitution.

[slackmaster]

6. Maxine made a total ass of herself

She blurted out most of the word "socialize", then stumbled over restating it as having the government take over the industry.

[Junkdrawer]

7. Nationalizing means nothing without Democracy. And, if you haven't noticed...

All that's left is a thin outward appearance of democracy.

So thin, it's transparent to anyone who cares to actually look.

[NeedleCast]

9. No

nationalization will not dramatically effect the price of gas becasue we do not control most of the resources used to refine oil into gasoline for engines. I pay about the same for bread ($1/loaf of store brand wheat bread at my local big-chain grocery store, but I find myself more and more buying fresher bread at the bakery at Trader Joe's or Whole FOods) as I did 20 years ago. Gas has surged in price due to a combination of over-inflated trading, higher demand and profit taking by "big oil." You are not accounting for inflation from 20 years ago. Pretty much everything is more expensive, so the nationalization of oil arugment doesn't make much sense unless you want to nationalize pretty much everything.

Plus, I'm against nationalization in general. I wouldn't have an issue with tighter industry controls to limit profit gouging.

[Divine Discontent]

15. why can't we get them (resources to refine) we're already 9 trillion in debt

it doesn't seem like cost matters anymore. And they are being permitted, and have been permitted, to inflate their profit margins dramatically under der fuhrer - I don't see anyone doing anything besides bringing the execs into a room, having them sit at a table while some Congressman and woman yell at them for raiding everyone's pockets.

As I said in my post - at the least they need to put a profit tax on them, for what they sell is a necessity in today's modern world, and they are price gouging and don't care because no one stops them.

[taught_me_patience]

20. Please read this post and answer

the myth of the exorbitant profit margins.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3325168&mesg_id=3332096

[Zywiec]

43. No one has time for any facts when there is so much passion.

I agree with you. People expect big business to stop being profitable because their numbers have so many zeroes.

The problem is the war driving up oil prices that drive up gas prices. I don't blame big oil, I blame the war.

[NeedleCast]

21. The primary resource I'm talking about is oil

So unless you've got a shitload of biomass, a lot of land to bury it under and a few million years to wait, we'll have to purchase that oil.

I agree that we need tighter profit control with big oil. I don't know if I have an answer for that. I hope Obama does. My ballpark guess solution would be a tax curve on big oil profits (i.e. the more they make, the higher the rate at which they are taxed). I agree with you completely about price gouging.

However, the larger government gets, the worse it runs things. As a contractor to the federal government I see just how wasteful we can be on a day to day basis. The fewer controls we give to the federal government, the better off the people will be. I'm not saying that the federal government isn't useful in terms of regulation, but they generally do a piss poor job of running things.

[taught_me_patience]

14. Absolutely not

This would be a complete and total disaster. It will dramatically decrease production and drive the price much higher. Just look at Venezuela when Chavez stole production rights from big oil... production has fallen dramatically.

[Divine Discontent]

19. I wouldn't compare anything he does to what we could do if done right

He doesn't have the leadership and management personnel we could have in this subject, if we focused our collective best upon it.

It's unlikely, but if things continue, the first step will be placing either profit restrictions on them, or taxing their profits and setting a margin. There is no question they are gouging - the question is will they be held accountable.

[Solon]

27. "stole production rights" and what rights were those?

I hate when people lie, especially when they pretend to be informative. First things first, Chavez didn't steal a damn thing, he said he was going to renegotiate the LEASES that foreign oil companies were holding over certain oil reserves in the country. Those companies cried foul and left rather than making a deal with the Venezuelan Government. Also, please be aware that oil production in Venezuela was Nationalized since the 1970s, well before Chavez entered office.

[taught_me_patience]

30. When you

offer bullshit leases that are way below fair value, that is essentially stealing. Conoco Phillips took a $4B writedown because Venezuela took control of the Orinoco oil field.

[Solon]

31. Its not stealing if they didn't own it in the first place...

besides that, the previous agreements could be characterized as stealing from the Venezuelan people, they were sweetheart deals by a previous corrupt government. These companies were getting a free ride, for a long time, and when Chavez's government decided to end it, they cried foul and left.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Big Oil owns the world's oil. So refusing a sweetheart deal is tantamount to theft...

Get it straight.

[fascisthunter]

17. Why Not Nationalize It?

We the People pay more for oil than if it were nationalized.

[Divine Discontent]

22. Good point about paying less, there wouldn't be any profit margin if we nationalize it.

there would be a need for maximum management discussion of how it should take place before they even started it, but the oil industry shows through their 100's of billions in profits (not revenue - but profit) each year, that they don't care about people hurting... that is the bottom line for me - they are DESTROYING us from within....

[fascisthunter]

25. It's a Finite Resource Everybody NEEDS

this isn't just some product the average consumer has much of a choice over and it's use has a very direct effect on life and environment. Due to it's importance (National Security) and the current gouging by private companies we really need to nationalize. These pricks will NEVER regulate themselves....

[Divine Discontent]

26. there's one of the strongest arguments for nationalizing it - right there - thank you!

It effects this country MUCH SO... it needs run without the worry of gouging and the oil execs holding our collective well being in their hands...

[fascisthunter]

28. Let's Just look at the Middle East

Look how expensive this war has been.... look at the life that has been lost over oil.

NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PROFIT FROM THIS.

I realize you know this... just want others to realize this.

[Divine Discontent]

39. oh, no, I agree - preach it loud and clear - speaking our minds helps others remember EOM

[NeedleCast]

24. Not necessarily

Even if oil were nationalized the federal government would still be at the mercy of suppliers in regards to it's price.

[tritsofme]

23. How do you plan to compensate shareholders?

Many retirement and pension funds have huge investments in oil companies, its not just some mythical robber baron that you're dreaming up.

Its obvious you have a very limited knowledge of economics.

[blindpig]

33. Sliding scale?

Cut some slack to the little guys, the major stock holders can go pound sand.

OR we could make social security payments a livable amount and just take it all. Profiting on another person's labor is immoral, anyway.

For profit investment is theft.

[tritsofme]

40. Fortunately, you're version of America is a fairy tale.

We have this thing in the Constitution called the takings clause.

The government cannot take my property and tell me to pound sand, thank God.

[blindpig]

42. The rich must LOVE you.

The Constitution can be amended.

Did the government not 'take' slave-owner's 'property' from them?

[tritsofme]

49. Luckily no one will be amending the Constitution to suit your fantasy.

And I am sorry that you are so outraged that government cannot seize property in order to forward a particular political agenda.

[blindpig]

55. That's what they used to think around here

in South Carolina, in 1860.

But it happened anyway.

[tritsofme]

64. So slavery is your only historical example?

How ridiculous.

You think 2/3 of Congress will pass and 39 states would ratify an amendment that sought to take property away from investors and give it to the government?

Did you think about the repercussions of this action?

If I were an international investor, I certainly wouldn't want to put my money in the United States if some asshole got pissed off at my industry and had it nationalized.

I mean guess posts like these only exist to make people feel good about themselves, but I hope you do realize how utterly ridiculous it all sounds.

[blindpig]

75. Congress? 39 states? Don't be ridiculous.

Of course not. The present apparatus was created and is maintained in order to preserve the status quo. No, the people are going to have to take back control of their government and their lives, directly.

As Thomas Jefferson suggested.

[tritsofme]

79. So now we're talking about Revolution?

The constitutional amendment argument didn't work out, so now we're talking about trees of liberty, and the blood of patriots and tyrants?

Lets be realistic here.

[blindpig]

80. Perfectly realistic

Sadly, the admendment deal most likely wouldn't work, the deck is stacked.

Revolutions come in varied forms and do not necessarily imply liberty trees or the blood of patriots, though they might. The important thing is an overturning of the existing order.

[Divine Discontent]

53. exactly, and this issue is NOT going away - the oil crisis has engulfed our collective conscience

it drains vital funds for every day living. they are purposefully gouging us, and Maxine may have made an ass out of herself for not remembering the word she wanted to say (like someone said caustically) but she is RIGHT ON THE MONEY - and that money is going into the Big Oil warprofiteers -

yeah, it's great being an oil stockholder - Eff the rest of the country though - and I'll be damned before I own stock in their filthy business...

[Thothmes]

71. Yes, after a four year bloody war

and 3 amendments to the Constitution.

[blindpig]

76. Sometimes the cost of freedom is high. n/t

[Thothmes]

83. The cost has always been high.

[Divine Discontent]

57. frankly, I don't care about your shares and pension money invested in oil

I care about the majority of people in America being swindled out of their money for a false increase in oil prices driven up by lack of production by OPEC, an invasion force doing nothing that uses billions of barrels a day to exist, record oil profits, and speculators driving up futures.

Regardless of my 'limited knowledge' of economics, I have morals, and I could care less how the gov't chooses to compensate those with stocks and pensions set up around this disgusting cash cow. People cannot pay for their kids to eat because just for Mom & Dad to pay the rent, electric, and health insurance - they have to drive on 4 buck a gallon gas which keeps them from being able to pay for proper nutrition. Food costs are approaching unattainable levels and there are the beginning of mass food shortages around the world.

We cannot ignore the problem.


Thanks for the time...

[tritsofme]

63. Its a double edged sword. When gas is cheap people tend to increase consumption

and energy conservation measures tend to go by the wayside.

The simple fact is, no one is going to nationalize our American oil companies, and even in such a theoretical situation, shareholders would need to be compensated for the fair market value of the firm, and I doubt the government could do very well in affording it.

[littlecryinggirl]

32. Sounds like theft

How can you endorse any government stealing from millions a people?

[blindpig]

34. no, no

What the oil companies are doing is theft.

Nationalizing the oil companies is justice.

[tkmorris]

36. Oh fer pity's sake.....

Yes by all means let's have the current robbers remain as they are.

[tritsofme]

65. Because pension funds that invest heavily in oil companies are robber barons.

Right.

[littlecryinggirl]

74. We own several funds and stocks

in our retirement account that are oil or energy related. We count on that money. If nationalized the value goes to zero. I call that stealing. I can not count on SS. That is our money my husband and I put in these investments over the years. Get a brain, good god.

[fascisthunter]

38. you Mean Big Oil Stealing Millions of People

and stealing from our government. That some goddamned Orwellian crap you wrote there.

[conspirator]

52. It's called wealth redistribution. You think wage slaving all your life just to fill your gas tank

is fair?

[tritsofme]

66. So would we then get free gas in your utopia?

Lets not do anything to deal with the problems of fossil fuel consumption such as global warming and peak oil.

[The2ndWheel]

37. To do what with it?

Allow us to use more oil? Seems like a crazy thing to do considering all the environmental and climate talk.

[sybylla]

44. Probably nothing wrong with half measures - serious regulation

Just like the utility companies, oil companies should have to open their books to the public, they should have to answer to a regulatory agency for their behavior. They should be required to maintain their facilities in a manner that prevents artificial shortages and their excess profits should be returned to the taxpayer.

Of course, that was also the good old days of utility regulation. I believe Reagan let them off most of those hooks as well.

[blindpig]

56. The New Deal was a half measure

and here we are again.

[Zywiec]

45. What other democracy nationalizes their oil industry?

Just curious

:shrug:

[Solon]

47. Here's a brief list...

Mexico never had a private oil industry, its been nationalized since the 1930s.

Venezuela nationalized its oil industry in the 1970s.

Iran under Mossadegh nationalized its oil industry, however, this lead to his overthrow by a combined US/British operation. Iran was a democracy back then, we know what happened afterward.

[Zynx]

62. Brazil has a state oil company as well.

[tama]

82. Norway n/t

[JDPriestly]

50. No to nationalization of oil.

Yes to subsidization of alternative energy -- subsidization for research and assistance to private individuals (such as tax advantages and government guaranteed loans) for the purchase and use of alternative energy. But, nationalization is not the answer. It would just lead to more corruption and graft. Can you imagine the heyday a Republican president would have in privatizing the previously nationalized oil companies in the future? No. That is an invitation to more trouble, not a solution.

[Divine Discontent]

58. good counter balance view on this - I know something needs done & as of now nothing is being done.

damnable administration.....

[The Inquisitive]

51. no, public ownership only gives the illusion of control to the populace

and lets them pretend that their 'democratic institutions' will somehow magically ensure that the industry is run completely with their welfare in mind. I'd have to see a much more intelligent proposal on the details of how said giant national oil company would function before I'd give the go. Without more detail this vague idea of nationalize just seems reactionary.

[Octafish]

60. As soon as possible.

I remember reading somewhere that annual petroleum sales are larger than the Federal budget and the USA controls about 80-percdent of that trade. We know the global economy runs on oil and so does our beloved Pentagon. It'd be better if We the People put the proceeds into the Treasury rather than the Texas petro-Mafia of George and Bandar Bush.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. We MUST nationalize medicine, energy, and rail transportation ... and maybe air transport

Air transport is too costly and too inefficient. We need to nationalize it to limit it. Rail transport is very efficient and should be the way to go for as much travel as possible. **BAN** airline flights that can replaced by rail trips of 10 hours or less. Put restrictions on all other air travel.

Energy (not just oil) is a national resource.

ACCESS to health care is a basic human right, not some perk for the wealthy.

[tritsofme]

67. No thank you.

I've worked hard my entire life, I can afford to fly when I wish to.

I rode a train to work for year and years, and I never intend to step in one again.

I certainly won't have the government telling me how I can and cannot travel.

[Solon]

69. It wouldn't be the government, it would be your choice...

to either fill up your car, or fill up your stomach.

[Thothmes]

72. All well and good. The same folks that brought us FEMA

during Katrina, operating the national oil industry, the national air transportation industry and the national health care program. While we are at it why dont we go ahead and nationalize all national economic assets, Lets nationalize all manufacturing, retail, and service industries. Everyone becomes an employee of a omnipotent and beneficient government. Which incidently could go Republican at any time.

[Selatius]

84. Social Security operated fine even with Bush, precisely because it is autonomous, unlike FEMA.

If you set up the structure right, it should be insulated from the passing political whims of whoever sits in the White House.

With that said, most of the oil comes from outside the US. The biggest thing impacted would be the oil refineries and pipelines, which are on US soil. With those nationalized, the profit-taking in that sector would be removed, but if people think oil nationalization is going to cut down the price of crude back to the old days of cheap oil, they got another thing coming.

I wouldn't support nationalization unless the shareholders are compensated the fair market-value of their shares.

[mach2]

68. That is the dumbest goddamn idea in years...and some people here are FOR it????

jeezusfuckingchrist.
:eyes:
Yeah, I want to buy my fuel from Dick Cheney's government.
:grr:

[Doctor Cynic]

73. Yet another stupid idea.

The US is a massive importer of crude.

The Saudis and Nigerians (not to mean Venezuelans) won't look kindly on the US Government directly owning their resources.

Next, please.

[Perry Logan]

77. Argh! I voted wrong. There's a NAY in there that should be a YAY.

I never said I was smart. But I'm in favor of nationalizing all sorts of things. The media, too.

[Xenotime]

78. Imagine if those profits were put into something like healthcare..

It would be nice.!

[tama]

81. DU

73% (closet) socialists, 27% evil capitalists :)

[ileus]

85. free oil profits for everyone...now that's a start.

[unkachuck]

86. YES!! nationalize the oil industry....

....in a democracy, We the People, can do what we want and change this rigged game forever....let's do it!!

[unkachuck]

87. self-delete....double post, sorry....

[galledgoblin]

88. I'm a socialist, but I don't know how nationalizing oil would solve anything

now, shifting the national transportation system back to rail and public transit makes sense, and maybe some limited nationalization of heating oil prices, but nationalizing the price of gasoline won't solve anything- I think it'll actually make things worse, forcing taxpayers to pick up an additional burden to pay for a continuance of our flawed public/private transportation system.