Are there a lot of illegal immigrant workers in the construction trades where you live?

[Fumesucker]

I'm near Atlanta and American citizens have been largely run out of the construction trades by illegal immigrants here.

Today another DU'er claimed not to see this trend in their area and I'm wondering if this is happening elsewhere?

What say you?

[wtmusic]

1. How do you know they're illegal? nt

[izquierdista]

18. You can ask them

Most of them will gladly tell you. I've talked with many of the people looking for work in Las Vegas, either in front of the Star nursery, or at some of the other common meeting spots. I ran into a lot of guys who were from Hidalgo and I asked them, what's with Hidalgo, why does everyone seem to be from that one state? They replied that the economy there sucked, so there were a lot of men who traveled north to find work.

I've read in the Review-Journal that it is almost impossible to bid a drywall job in Las Vegas with union labor, because of contractors whose staff is mostly guys they pick up at the corner of Rancho and Bonanza early in the morning.

But not everyone I met was a foreigner. One guy who did a lot of work for me had his American citizenship. He had emigrated from Guatemala when he was 12, gone to school in the U.S., and was completely fluent with his English.

There are subtle clues that give away whether one is a foreigner or not, but probably the biggest tell is that they are looking for casual labor, paid by the day, without filling out an employment application. And since the United States has the weakest sanctions in the world (IMHO and travels) against employers who will offer this type of work, there will be a lot of people working illegally.

[Fumesucker]

36. Exactly..

I'm far from fluent in Spanish but I can make myself understood and can can understand Spanish speakers if they slow down and talk baby talk to me.. Almost all of them will tell you if they are illegal..

I don't blame the immigrants, they are just trying to better themselves and I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes.

But with the exit of manufacturing jobs and the large numbers of illegal immigrants in the construction and other trades it makes it really hard for those American citizens who do not have marketable "office" type skills or something similar.

[Bentcorner]

100. Not only construction, but manufacturing jobs too.

When I first moved to Maryland 13 years ago, I don't remember ever seeing non-English speaking people on construction sites. Now, all construction is being done by people who only speak Spanish.

[Fumesucker]

28. How do I know?

I have a family member that owns a small construction contracting business and works a few illegal immigrants..

And yes, I've confronted him about it, he knows it isn't right but can't compete in bidding for jobs with legal workers.

It's really a question of survival for a lot of small contractors, either work illegal immigrants or go out of business.

[Zorra]

118. They all run when I yell "La Migra!"

}(

[xchrom]

2. are you running around demanding people show

their citizenship papers?

[Fumesucker]

47. I speak/understand Spanish well enough to communicate on a basic level.

And I'm sympathetic actually, so most Hispanics I talk to will willingly tell me they are illegal..

The going price for a Coyote to bring them over the border is about $500 right now, I've had several tell me that.

[xchrom]

83. first of all -- anecdotal.

which is indicative of nothing.

second -- this is the internet -- and people say all kinds of things which are never verifiable.

third i find talking about 'illegals' and taking over this kind of job or that -- or 'illegals' moving into jobs or whatever
to be alarmist and phrased to get knee jerk reactions -- therefore see my first line about 'anecdotal' evidence and my secon about the internet.

[Fumesucker]

87. So you wish to claim that illegal immigrants are not prevalent in the construction trades?

If not, then exactly what jobs are they taking?

And by the way, I never used the term "illegals"..

[xchrom]

93. i don't wish to claim anything -- i'm telling you your

comments -- commentary -- are/is meaningless without hard numbers.

just a prickling sensation on the back of your neck -- could be anything -- a cold -- delusion -- whatever.

this is an OP only geared to stir up and irrational flame.

when i read the comments down the thread -- that's exactly what has happend.

[Fumesucker]

95. When it is *your* job that is threatened

You'll be singing a different tune..

I can understand why a lot of people think liberals are "elitist", you are showing that right now.. You do not care that people are losing their means of support.

Just as long as you are ok, everyone else is too, eh?

[xchrom]

103. and there it is. -- the uglyness for what it really is.

um -- where's your concern for u.s. policies that create untenable positions for people in mexico to remain in their own homes and build their own country?
because that's what got there first.

this has the stench of racism all over it.

[Fumesucker]

113. I'm not in construction any more..

In fact I'm self employed in a business that will do better the higher energy prices go.. But I still care about people who are being hurt by high energy prices..

And indeed, I would like to see US policy toward Mexico changed to improve conditions there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. And some of us protest whenever any jobs are threatened

I want to know why some jobs are more precious than others, based on where the workers were born.

[Fumesucker]

131. As I have already pointed out..

Manufacturing jobs are all but gone from the USA..

And now construction jobs which cannot be exported are being taken by illegal immigrants..

I don't blame the individual illegal immigrant, they are doing what they are doing out of desperation.. But if it continues long enough then there will be no jobs for us here either.

A family member of mine has a small construction contracting business and it has gotten so bad that he can either hire illegal immigrants to work under the table or he can go out of business.. It's cutthroat competition that is driving this problem..

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. So your family member is just making the problem worse

I have a good friend who is a contractor. He is now driving a truck. He didn't have whatever it takes to pay slave wages to his workers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. Staying in business does not make the problem worse.

The problem is out of everyone's individual control.

A contractor who stays in business hires the cheapest adequate labor he can find, because that's exactly what his competition is doing. Those are the rules of the game. He didn't create those rules, government (either through action or inaction) did.

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. But don't you see the hypocrisy?

How can anyone complain about the undocumented workers and then turn around and hire them?

Like I said, my friend closed up shop and went to work as a truck driver. I can't tell you how much I admire that. It certainly wasn't an easy decision for him.

[lumberjack_jeff]

156. Because the point of your government is to promote your interests.

I don't expect redress from the Guatemalan government. I do expect representation by mine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. If the Guatemalan government negotiated a trade policy that took your job away

and you moved to Guatemala to work so you could feed your family, would it be fair for the Guatemalan people to demand you leave their country?

Like it or not, we have a global economy. And our policies destroyed the economies in Central American countries. So they come here to survive. I for one, am sick of the ugly American attitude that demeans people who are not born here. Except the Native Americans. The one people who really are in their native land are treated like dogshit by the descendants of the invaders. It's time to treat all human beings with dignity and respect, regardless of what their birth certificate says.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. Fair? Yes. The guatemalan people have a right to regulate who immigrates.

If the Guatemalan (or Mexican, or El Salvadoran) government could no longer export their unemployment then there would be pressure to reform the underlying problems.

I've read Shock Doctrine, I know that the brain trust which caused their problems came from Chicago. But they didn't do it without the complicity of greedy "leaders" who saw a huge opportunity for personal gain.

We live in a global economy by design. It's created for the purpose of devaluing and disempowering labor.

You're not talking about valuing people, you're talking about valuing them equally. There is a long way for the average us citizen to fall before they meet the conditions faced by most people in the world. I, for one, don't want my kids to make that fall. Our ancestors worked hard to attain the quality of life that we have, and it need not be exploitive.

If nothing else, it is the most vulnerable americans which will suffer the most from this leveling.

[End Of The Road]

148. What jobs are they taking besides construction?

Hotels, motels, restaurants, landscaping, food processing plants...

I do not believe they are "prevalent" in construction. But yes, some contractors employ them as laborers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. The ones here say it is $2000

[DAGDA56]

3. How does any worker "run out" another worker? What is the advantage

to an employer of hiring someone illegal?

[Breeze54]

7. They work for less money and

if an employer hires undocumented then documented people who need the jobs are shut out.

Pretty simple, isn't it? :shrug:

[treestar]

46. But it is equally possible that most Americans have other jobs

Better paying ones, at that, too.

Too many of these posts are based on the disappointments of one person, who may not have gotten the job for other reasons, too.

It is possible that to a certain extent there'd be nobody to paint your house, or that you'd have a waiting list for the American painter to get to it, and then said painter could do a crappy job and there wouldn't be much to do about it.

Why do people expect an employer to hire the more expensive person for the same job? Americans always seek the lowest price for everything, no matter what it is. If I need computers for my office, I seek the lowest possible price for them.

The immigration laws/labor costs are the only ones where one is required to spend more money for the same performance. The real effect is to cut off the chance of the newest businesses from expanding.

[Fumesucker]

53. Let me guess.. Your job is secure from being taken by illegal immigrants.?.

I don't know about you but I've found that buying the cheapest usually ends up being more expensive in the long run.

Manufacturing jobs are largely long gone in the US and many other fields that used to be fairly well paying are now having the wages driven down by illegal immigrants.

I have a family member that has a small construction contracting business and his income has dropped by over thirty percent in the last five years. The price of tools and materials has skyrocketed and the jobs often pay less than they did five years ago.

[Breeze54]

85. I expect employers to hire people here

with documentation and that includes American citizens.

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. No, it is not.

The employment/population ratio has been decline for a decade. There are more people but the same number of jobs. Anyone working here illegally is displacing someone who used to work legally.

[notesdev]

11. massive advantage

Don't have to pay taxes on most of them, don't have to obey labor laws, the workers don't need to obey housing laws (specifically occupancy), they get the taxpayer to fund their medical care, illegals have no rights to claim, no significant lawsuit threats for things like sexual or racial discrimination, and on top of all that, illegals severely undercut Americans on wages.

Take a highly-skilled carpenter, for example. $25/hour is a very reasonable price for that skill, for the buyer. However, when the illegal is doing the same work for the price of unskilled American labor, it puts a LOT of Americans out of work.

[DAGDA56]

17. So the problem is with employers...this I understand. What I don't

understand is why INS doesn't step in. And where are the Unions?

[izquierdista]

24. Congress

If INS goes to a business and disrupts things by hauling off the workers, the boss calls his congressman to complain. After threatening to put a stop payment on the check for the last Republican fund raiser, he puts the fear of god (no, make that money, fear of no money is worse than fear of god) into the congressman. Said congressman calls up the INS district office and asks them if they want to have their budget cut by 90% next year, or will they quit pestering his constituent.

[LanternWaste]

140. And this happened in which of the last raids on business by the INS?

"the boss calls his congressman to complain. After threatening to put a stop payment on the check for the last Republican fund raiser..."

And this happened in which of the last raids on business by the INS?

[notesdev]

40. Bush is AWOL

in total violation of his Constitutional duties. He represents the corporatists who profit off the virtual slave labor class that the illegals represent.

It's a longstanding affair, that agribusiness wields an enormous amount of power in the halls of Congress. It's been what, two decades? since Bob Dole was known as "the Senator from Archer Daniels Midland".

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. The unions are on it but no one is listening to them

[izquierdista]

20. What medical care?

I've met a few foreigners staying in the U.S., and none of them have ever told me about getting taxpayer funded medical care. They don't seem to have some secret benefits card. On the contrary, they have asked me if I knew of clinics or dentists where they could pay cash and not be asked about insurance.

[notesdev]

38. The ones that bankrupted over 80 hospitals in California alone

as a starter. The foreigners you know are either not illegal, or not typical.

Illegal aliens get care for free in our country where a citizen or legal resident would be required to pay for it.

And this problem is not unique to California, just look up "illegal alien health care" and you'll be deluged with data.

[Fumesucker]

44. Citizens can get "free" medical care too...

At the emergency room.. :(

[notesdev]

58. But citizens get a bill

and credit damage for failing to pay it.

Illegals? They can just walk out and never be accountable for the cost.

There was one case not long ago where someone sneaked over the border for the express purpose of the free medical care, and got a $500,000 liver transplant in a US hospital, paid for by the US taxpayer - and got to the operation AHEAD of Americans who had been waiting longer.

This is an economically and culturally unsustainable situation. There are two ways out - one is to enforce laws and push illegals out of the country. The other is to ignore the problem until people start shooting each other in serious numbers. Already we are seeing, more and more often, racial battles between illegal hispanics and the black population they are here to replace.

[Fumesucker]

62. Credit damage?

LOL.. If you are going to the ER for medical care you most likely don't have any credit anyway..

[notesdev]

63. Just puts people

further in the hole. America used to have social mobility; now we have debt traps, and anyone who falls into one gets to be poor forever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Oh bullshit

Post a link or quit spreading this crap.

I swear, I wish we could report posts like this where people just LIE and don't back up what they are posting.

[sandnsea]

134. lol, do you have any clue how crazy that is

My mother was a transplant patient. You do not get them without money. PERIOD. You might get them with Medicare and Medicaid, but they don't give them out for free. In addition, there is an enormous amount of preparation for a transplant, you have to have psych evals, all sorts of things. You don't just show up at a hospital and get a transplant. Further, if anybody got the operation AHEAD of Americans who had been waiting longer - I guarantee you it would be some foreigner with a boatload of cash, which doesn't seem to bother you a bit.

I have to say to you, unless you are naive because you're under 15 - you have simply got to read. You cannot turn on Rush and Hannity and think you're informed. Garbage in, garbage out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. No they do not get free care

I am so sick of this bullshit claim I could just scream. I work with the undocumented and they most certainly do NOT get taxpayer funded health care FOR FREE!!! They suffer and DIE.

The law in this country is that hospitals that take Medicaid are required to give life saving care to anyone who is critically ill. But the undocumented are afraid to seek care, because they think they will be deported anytime they come into contact with 'the system'. So they don't even seek out care.

A good friend of mine is a doctor who does provide health care to the undocumented at a clinic that she funds out of her own pocket. And a couple times a month, uninformed idiots like you picket her clinic. But tax dollars are NOT funding any part of her work. She is very frustrated because she knows that sick people who are coming to her for care are being run off by the pickets. So in their ignorance they are causing people to suffer and DIE. But hey, since they were born south of Texas, I guess that's okay with people like you.

[treestar]

43. The only solution is changing the law to make them legal

That is the only way to make the employers see them as equal.

Keeping them out, fences, deportation, etc. is unrealistic.

Give them a visa and they too can demand union protection, minimum wage, etc.

Win win for everyone.

[Fumesucker]

49. Whether it is a "win" or not depends what you do for a living..

A massive influx of legal workers will drive down wages for those already in the jobs which they are likely to take.

[countryjake]

126. Ever hear of union organizing?

[Fumesucker]

128. Ever hear of a "right to work state"? n/t

[LanternWaste]

141. Every state was a de-facto right to work state prior to the Unions

Every state was a de-facto right to work state prior to the Unions... all it takes it some people standing up...

[countryjake]

149. I didn't see your topic asking if there were alot of non-union workers...

in the construction trade where we live. And I wonder why that might be? Why be so overly concerned with "legality" when the laws in so many states of this nation are written, passed, and enacted with the express purpose of destroying the protections and rights of American workers, both "documented" and "undocumented", that our Unions fought and died for.

Right to work states are breaking the principles of our working class...the right to organize, demand better working conditions, higher wages, decent benefits, and job security...and those are principles that were won, overwhelmingly, by folk who immigrated to our country, looking for the freedoms and equality that a democracy should promise and fighting for "the union" became their battle cry.

When I see you posting about eliminating those types of oppressive, "right-to-work", anti-working class laws, repealing Taft-Hartley, or encouraging the union-organizing of every person who labors in our country, no matter their "documentation" status, then I might believe that you are sincere in improving the lot of all working people.

Unity is the answer, not division!

[notesdev]

56. win win for slaveowners and their political sponsors

lose lose lose lose lose for the American worker who gets to see his wages continue to fall, standard of living continue to drop, and see more and more of his own country become as incomprehensible and foreign to him as would any third-world slum.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Fair wages for all

That is the best solution.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. What medical care?

The undocumented don't get taxpayer funded medical care.

[notesdev]

65. Oh really?

Who funds their medical care then? Or are you seriously asserting that - despite reams of evidence showing hospital after hospital going down under the weight of unpaid bills of illegal aliens - that illegals don't get medical care in the US, or are somehow paying for the care they do get?

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Yes really

I work with the undocumented. You are likely so afraid of them you don't even know any.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. BTW,

quit making this claim without supporting it with a link.

[notesdev]

124. If you can't be bothered

to type four words into a search engine, I really can't be bothered to cater to your delusions.

Since I'm dealing with a person who has already admitted to having a vested financial interest in the continued presence of illegal aliens, and who doesn't seem to have the slightest care for the well-being of the American worker, I'm under no delusion that any numbers, no matter how well-substantiated, will change your mind on the subject.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Oh baloney

You haven't posted a link to any of your outrageous claims. Anecdotal "I know a guy who knows a guy" stories are not proof of what you are claiming. And I know you are bullshitting.

[notesdev]

174. OK here you go... LA Times, illegal with 4 liver transplants on your dime

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-liver13apr13,0,1683353,full.story

open your damn eyes to what has been going on already.

[LanternWaste]

144. So, for all intents and purposes...

So, for all intents and purposes, you're simply not going to back up any of your claims?

We'll give your statements all the credibility they're due...

[notesdev]

175. Some reading for you too

American Association of Medical College report on the subject.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/feb05/immigrant.htm

[notesdev]

176. some hospital bankruptcies...

National Society of Hispanic Professionals reports on one...

http://www.nshp.org/?q=node/717


University of Arizona report...

http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/publications/pdf/SOMBRHEROpaper.pdf

"Hospitals have to treat any person that is injured regardless of their citizenship status.
Hospitals absorb these costs, but the affect is felt by
lowered quality of health care. Douglas’ (Cochise county) single hospital went bankrupt
in 2000 due to unpaid hospital bills, and Tucson’s University Medical Center wrote off
$6 million in uncompensated services to illegal aliens in 2001 (Miller, 2002)."



New York Times... Hospitals Feeling Strain From Illegal Immigrants

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE6DB133CF936A1575BC0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


Let me know if you need more, there's no lack of it.

[notesdev]

177. Parkland Memorial in Dallas, 70% of births to illegal aliens...

Snopes confirming...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp


more NY Times on the hospitals' illegal alien dilemna...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


This debate has been going on for nearly a decade already, I am simply amazed that anyone can contend that this problem doesn't exist.

[LanternWaste]

179. I'm glad humans are being born in hospitals

I'm glad humans are being born in hospitals. I'm also glad that I really don't see a difference between an undocumented worker and a person.

I don't think that people don't believe the problem doesn't exist. I will hazard a guess that a lot of people (myself included) believe that starvation is a greater problem than undocumented workers.

I'm just one of those guys who thinks that during my Judgment Day, the more people I help in this world (regardless of what side your imaginary red and blue lines on map we're born on) will look better for me.

Just because we have different opinions about it doesn't mean we don't recognize a problem-- we're simply attempting to find a solution that will satisfy both those in need, and those who think less of person because they don;t have the "proper papers".

This debate has been going on for nearly a decade already, I am simply amazed that anyone would force people back into a most difficult life-- an every day struggle simply to service rather than part with his "I got mine..." attitude


Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

[lumberjack_jeff]

181. I am a big supporter of foreign aid.

I'm happy to have my taxes used for noble purpose, anywhere in the world. If conditions were improved in Mexico, it'd be less necessary for them to dump their unemployment problems on their neighbors.

If I have no job, I am not a taxpayer. The employment to population ratio has been dropping for a decade, largely because our population is growing - entirely due to immigration, while our employment base has not.

The most harmful kind of corporate shill is the kind that doesn't realize it.

[Bentcorner]

102. Less pay

Not only can they pay them less, they can subject them to harsher treatment. They can work them 7-days a week without any complaints.

[Breeze54]

4. Romney had them working at his house and on Gov. contracts

until it was reported in the news here in MA. I have no idea if this is going on here still. I don't think there's many houses being built right now but I'm not sure. I heard recently that my town is building $850,000 McMansion's on the other side of town, near the golf course but I haven't gone by there to see who's working and I doubt I could tell by observing, who is or isn't documented.

[notesdev]

5. Oh yeah, big time

Around the DC area they ride on the beltway with 12 guys stacked on the bed of a pickup truck, and 5 more in the cab. Cops pass 'em right by. Try stacking US citizens in a vehicle like that I'm pretty sure someone's going to get a hefty ticket (potentially over $3000 in Virginia!)

[rucky]

6. How do you know? n/t

[notadmblnd]

8. Landscaping, construction, hospitality

and fast food. It's funny because my niece just got a job at McDonalds and didn't tell the owner that she understands Spanish. The staff is nearly all Hispanic, she came home and told me that the male workers were talking about her breasts and rear end and when she told them she understood, they shut up. she was scheduled to work today, but her new boss called and told her not to come in. I'm not liking her new job at all.

[NNN0LHI]

9. How do you identify these "illegal immigrants" you speak of?

[Fumesucker]

29. So you wish to claim there are no illegal immigrants in the US?

I've already answered the question upthread.

[notesdev]

60. You'll get many of them in the first pass

By identifying those who don't speak English and have no valid immigration papers.

After all the valid amnesty cases I've seen our government turn down under both Democrats and Republicans, there's no excuse for being nice to economic migrants.

And let's be honest and call them what they are - not immigrants, but COLONISTS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. So not speaking English means they aren't a citizen?

More bullshit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. He can't

Just one bullshit claim right after another. He is also claiming they are allowed to violate traffic laws that the cops give American citizens tickets for.

I am so sick of this bullshit I could just scream.

[L. Coyote]

116. I just speak with them? You?

[NNN0LHI]

135. You go around asking people their immigration status?

I know some Italian guys around here who could easily be mistaken for Mexicans with their Mediterranean features who would cut the throat of some stranger who walked up and began asking them personal questions.

Don

[fasttense]

10. Oh yeah, they are everywhere here in East Tennessee.

Though construction is off here, you can find them in cleaning, landscaping and restaurant services. It's a shame that Americans are now fighting over such lowly paying jobs.

You don't need to pretend, we all know who the legal and illegal immigrant workers are. They are easy to identify usually because they speak absolutely no English and have fake SS numbers. Why pretend they don't exist? It serves no purpose.

[notesdev]

13. No job should be considered 'lowly'

if it's at all a productive occupation. Any person who gets up off their ass and works is more valuable to society than anyone who can but doesn't. They said that those were jobs that "Americans won't do" for so long people have started to believe it.

Starving people will do any work, no matter how 'lowly' it might seem. With food banks already being tapped out, count on a surge of anger at illegals, the businesses that hire them, and the government agents and officials that make this ripoff of the average American possible.

[cynatnite]

14. No one is pretending they don't exist...

My neighbor is an immigrant from Mexico and he's accused of being an illegal all the time. He and his wife sued one of the school districts because of the racism towards his son.

I'm not just talking about E. TN either.

There are a lot of folks making assumptions about what I say rather than asking me directly what I'm talking about.

I have yet to see proof there is fighting over these jobs or that someone lost their job due to an illegal immigrant.

[madokie]

35. I would say you are in the minority it you think there is no illegal immigrants taking jobs

Blind are ya'

peace and have a good day

[cynatnite]

84. Nope, I've seen whites walk off of jobs because they were too dirty...

The only folks willing to take them were illegal immigrants. Between the lousy pay, the grime and how menial it was...majority of whites who refused were the same ones complaining about Mexicans taking their jobs.

[Fumesucker]

88. Racist much?

You say "whites" walk off the jobs..

Not "citizens", which would include blacks and other non white Americans citizens..

[cynatnite]

107. If it was blacks, asians, or other nonwhites, I'd say so...

but it wasn't. It was white people walking off the job because they didn't like the dirt and the pay. One blonde headed girl told me as she handed me her safety helmet, goggles and gloves that no amount of money would keep her in that job.

And the company I worked for cooked their books to keep the illegals working there. That was to keep the place open and running. It wasn't the only potato warehouse that did it either.

If they only hired folks who could legally work here in the US, they would never be able to have enough people to keep the places running.

I don't know if it was right or wrong. All I know is that if they had been forced to shut down, we all would have been out of jobs. The potato industry in Idaho would have felt the impact...along with the rest of the economy.

[Fumesucker]

132. "One blonde headed girl"

Well, that settles it.. One blonde headed girl wouldn't do your particular job so all white people won't.

[LanternWaste]

145. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

And you implied you spoke to one immigrant who said he was here illegally. Well, that settles it...

Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

Anecdotal evidence is just that, you know.

[madokie]

97. Thats bullshit and you know it

I want to see some proof :grr:

[cynatnite]

105. Go to a potato warehouse in Idaho or to farms across TX, OK and KS...

I've watched it happen. I've seen farmers put illegal immigrants in cramped trailers with no running water or electricity. That's where they were expected to live while they worked for practically nothing. It was disgusting, but that's how it was.

I've seen whites walk off jobs because they were too dirty and didn't pay enough. It was illegal immigrants who did the work.

Don't believe me? Well, nothing I can do about that. I can only pass on what I've witnessed.

[madokie]

109. hey, I won't work for the wages they are being paid for one second

and thats the issue here. honest work for honest wages. due to the fact they will work cheap and off the books allows them to do the job. You are so screwed up in your argument is all I can say. Have you noticed I take the issue of honest and legal work very seriously. Let me ask you what kind of work do you do and where do you call your homeland? Where is your allegiance in other words???

[cynatnite]

112. My allegience?

I'm passing on what I've witnessed. That's it.

I think a lot of folks miss out on the reality of illegal immigration. Big business and small business alike have relied on illegal immigrants for a lot of years. I've witnessed it in the agricultural industry since I was in jr. high school. A lot of farmers and businesses could not operate without them.

That's a fact.

What I advocate is finding a way to give illegal immigrants a faster path to citizenship without punishing them or the people they work for. IMO, it helps all involved.

We won't harm our economy by deporting them all and illegal immigrants would get payed their true worth. They would also be protected under the law by those who would exploit them.

[Fumesucker]

133. The problem with what you advocate

Is that as soon as illegal immigrants get illegal status they will also start looking for better employment.

The real solution is to pay a living wage.. But that might cut into profits a bit so companies will not do that.

[cynatnite]

137. You're right. I should have included that. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

160. I wonder WHY the jobs were too dirty and didn't pay enough.

Oh yeah! Because there are illegal workers who are willing to do anything for less - just don't ask any questions.

And yet, people can't seem to understand the concept that 12 million illegal workers depress wages and jeopardize workplace safety.

If the supply of slave labor dried up, wages, working and living conditions would improve. The only thing that would change is the price (and potentially the profit margin) of potatoes.

[notesdev]

178. Maybe if we used the word 'scab'

it would drive the point home to the illegal-coddling contingent.

One can't both support US labor and illegal aliens. It's fish or cut bait time.

I know which side I am on. I hope others here who are less clear do some serious thinking about where their loyalties lie.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Bullshit. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

15. My grandmother came here from Italy 80 years ago legally never spoke english

She knew two words. Machine = automobile. Pop = Ginger Ale. That was it. I don't trust anyone who identifies someone as illegal by the way they talk.

Don

[cynatnite]

22. My father couldn't speak a word of English when he came...

I'm with you on that sentiment.

[sinkingfeeling]

27. Wow, you have the power to identify a fake SS number by looking at someone! You should hire your

services to the Social Security Administration since they believe there are something like 8 million invalid SS numbers in use....and they're collecting the payroll taxes.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/immi05x_08-05-07_M16KN18.366efd1.html


"Every year, U.S. employers file millions of wage reports — 8 million last year alone — with invalid Social Security numbers, many of which are being used by illegal immigrants."

"In tax year 2003, for example, $7.2 billion in Social Security payroll taxes flowed into the U.S. Treasury based on wage reports for which the agency found “no match” in its records. That is equal to roughly 4 percent of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product."

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Or go to work at a carnival side show!

LOL

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. How do you know they are using fake SS numbers?

Do you ask to see their SS card? And if they don't speak English, how do you speak to them?

No one is pretending they don't exist. But I am amazed by the people in this thread who seem to know they are everywhere, they are getting taxpayer funded health care for free, they don't have to abide by traffic laws and anyone who doesn't speak English is undocumented. Please don't tell my great grandmother who was born here that speaking only German meant she wasn't a US citizen. :eyes:

[Breeze54]

86. They've been caught with them, stolen SS #'s and stolen ID's

Immigration sweeps underscore the extent businesses fear not complying with new rules

http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/04/immigration_sweeps_underscore_the_extent.html

snip-->

A federal grand jury in Tyler, Texas, returned multiple-defendant indictments on April 1, 2008, that remained under seal until today’s operation. The indictments allege that each defendant obtained and used the Social Security account numbers of others to obtain employment with Pilgrim’s Pride Corp. If convicted, each defendant could receive up to five years in federal prison and a fine of up to $250,000. The Department of Justice anticipates that a substantial number of those detained will be federally prosecuted.

The press release goes further:

During the investigation leading up to today’s operation, investigators identified numerous identity theft victims. The identity theft victims described to ICE agents a myriad of hardships they suffered as a result of having their identities stolen, including mistaken tax liens, denial of medical and social services benefits, and damage to their credit ratings.

“Criminal cases like these show how illegal immigration can leave behind a trail of victims,” said Julie L. Myers, Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for ICE. “A significant percentage of identity theft is carried out by illegal aliens trying to avoid detection and gain employment. However, even under the least damaging circumstances, these identity thieves wreak havoc with the credit and tax histories of innocent U.S. citizens who spend years trying to repair the damage.”

While not trying to minimize the hardships and nightmares that a stolen identity wreaks on its victims, I have to take issue with Ms. Myers' statement when she says - "A significant percentage of identity theft is carried out by illegal aliens trying to avoid detection and gain employment.."

According to a survey released in November 2007 by the Federal Trade Commission, only 1% of identity theft victims report their identity being used for employment purposes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. Last sentence is the key

"only 1% of identity theft victims report their identity being used for employment purposes"

[Breeze54]

110. ...in 2007 but I'll tell you,

when i worked at the DMV issuing licenses and ID cards?

We had many, many people with fake SS#'s.

I'd punch in the # and a totally different face would pop up.

It happened all the time and that was in 1998/1999.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Were they undocumented?

If someone is going to claim that the undocumented are responsible for massive amounts of identity fraud, I would like to see a link to prove it - cause I don't believe it. It's just one more little falsism used to demonize these people.

[Breeze54]

115. They had expired student visa's and passports or other visa's...

we had to send them to the MGR or to the SS office to get their SS # verified.

They'd just make the numbers up a lot of the time.

[LibDemAlways]

12. In Southern Cal my experience has been that

when you hire a contractor to do some work for you (i.e., housepainting, new flooring, etc.) the actual workers who show up to do the job may well be undocumented. Two different painters I've employed in the past did not do one bit of the work themselves, and the people they sent over spoke no English so communication was difficult. I asked one of the painters about this and he shrugged his shoulders and said by employing day laborers (as he called them) he could charge me less for the work and he could contract for multiple jobs.

I am not making any judgments about these people or saying anything negative about them, just stating the facts.

[lovuian]

39. I know down in Texas there are many

They stand outside Home Depot and get picked up by contractors doing jobs

its all over down here

[eowyn_of_rohan]

45. Same experience with a roofing company in Madison, WI

BTW - roof leaked like a sieve this winter - partly due to ice dams, partly due to construction flaws.

[Donnachaidh]

16. yup - has been for several years now

Company DH works for has *suddenly* fired large groups of workers for *questionable* SS paperwork. Of course, it took the company 5 YEARS to realize those papers were *questionable*? :sarcasm: They've done this a couple of times over the last decade. We expect the latest group to suddenly develop paperwork problems, just shy of being vested for retirement benefits.

[madinmaryland]

19. I see and hear a lot of people of hispanic descent on the construction sites

i have been on the last several years. I have no idea if they are hear legally/illegally or are really american citizens who just happen to speak english as a second language.

[izquierdista]

25. Did you ask?

Most people here illegally know what the risks are. They are not ignorant of the fact that they could be found out and sent back to their home country. They may have very good intentions to get a green card or a work visa, but they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[madinmaryland]

42. Why should I ask?

By asking them, that is making assumption that they are illegal.

:shrug:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

50. What's the point?

1) It would be rude, 2) It wouldn't be to their advantage to tell the truth.

[izquierdista]

61. Friendly conversation

If it's so important to people, they can ask instead of make assumptions. And no, it's not really rude, I have been asked many times when I am traveling how I like the country, what am I doing here, what kind of work I do.

And why shouldn't people tell the truth? You make the assumption that people used to living in a fascist police state make, that everyone they talk to could snitch on them to the authorities. I find that foreigners from Mexico and Central America have no problem talking to you about their situation. Especially if you show an interest in them, ask about their family, what their plans are, etc.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

69. contradiction?

you wrote "Most people here illegally know what the risks are. They are not ignorant of the fact that they could be found out and sent back to their home country." Then you wrote "And why shouldn't people tell the truth?"

Why would they want to admit they are here illegally? And what if the person they tell does "snitch" on them?

[Fumesucker]

74. It's actually pretty easy to get people to talk about themselves

If you are interested and friendly..

People love to talk about themselves.

[LanternWaste]

91. Topics like resident status...

Topics like resident status, how much money they pull down a year, how many times their husbands screwed around on them, if they cheated on their taxes...

Yeah... those are some really good conversation starters for interested and friendly people.

[Fumesucker]

94. You don't find all this out on the first day..

I talk to people for months sometimes..

[LanternWaste]

96. So it takes about six months or so ...

So it takes about six months or so before your co-workers volunteer in friendly conversation whether they beat their wives and other indiscretions?

[izquierdista]

82. I can see you don't talk to many people

If you did, you would know that after a while, people will admit to minor indiscretions that could get them into trouble. They might be a pothead, a tweeker, a hothead who gets into fights, or yes, in the country overstaying their visa. Generally, the only people that get worked up about such things are uniformed Nazis who are out to bust potheads, tweekers, assholes, and foreigners, so if you aren't wearing a uniform, people assume you are just one of the proles.

But if you ever do get out into the real world, just asking can open up all sorts of doors. If you go to a day labor hangout and specifically say that you need legal workers, the ones with proper documentation will step forward and the others will go back to waiting around for a less discriminating employer.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

117. double

double

[eowyn_of_rohan]

119. Please!

I am a good traveller and I am a good talker. I have conversed candidly with strangers, some who have become friends, in nearly all 50 states and in at least 10 other countries. I talked to a Mexican man in an Indian bar in New Mexico. He was proud of himself for his ability to sneak back and forth across the border on a regular basis. He was trying to bum money and cigarettes from us. I used to know some Chilean pothead backpackers who were hired illegally by the ski resort where we all worked. But that was way back when this country wasn't having such problems....

The original issue here was you said to walk up to STRANGERS ON CONSTRUCTION SITES and ask if they are here legally or not. then you said, they may be afraid a person would turn them in if said person knew they were here illegally. But then you asked why they shouldn't tell the truth.

Stop talking down to me and admit you contradicted yourself!

[notesdev]

130. There is no legal path

for an illegal alien to gain a green card or other valid visa.

Except one - political asylum - but they need to claim that when they enter the country, for starters, and secondly, no more than one in ten thousand at best would qualify.

Having helped thousands of people get through the legal process, with the years of hassle and significant expense that entails, it is grossly offensive to see these line jumpers be treated with anything but the contempt with which they treat our right to self-determination.

[Android3.14]

21. Buchanan, is that you?

The ignore button is okay, but I'd really just like to throw virtual eggs, or have Skinner punish the trolls by flagging their IP address so they are always redirected to sign on as HonoraryDillweed, OnlyIdiotsReadMyPosts, or IEatMyBoogers.

[Fumesucker]

31. I'm guessing that you do not work in construction..

Wait until it is *your* job that is taken by an illegal immigrant, I suspect your tune will change then.

[EFerrari]

81. Undocumented workers only wish they had the kind of power

you believe they do.

[Fumesucker]

89. It's not the workers that have the power..

It's those that hire them.

I'm surprised you don't understand that.

[LanternWaste]

146. Isn't the job "taken" by the employer rather than another worker?

Isn't the job "taken" by the employer rather than another worker?

[countryjake]

127. ROTF! Good one! If only...

[RebelOne]

23. Yes, I'm in Woodstock, just northwest of Atlanta

And I can see that wherever there is construction, there are Hispanics working at the sites. I don't know if they are illegal, I see them in the morning riding their bicycles to work, so I assume they are illegal since they probably can't get drivers licenses.

[recoveringrepublican]

26. I live in Florida and work right across from a HUGE condo building that is going

up in Clearwater. I see a lot of the construction workers. The ones that park around me seem to be 50% white and 50% Mexican. But then I hate to go by "looks" (I get asked if I'm Latina all the time, though I am white as hell and think I look it). As to whether they are immigrants, legal or otherwise, I have no idea. I DO see trucks from day worker companies all the time.

We also get a lot of Mexican women in the store I work at. Most don't speak English, but I have no idea what that means as I live in a town with a heavy Greek population, and it's not unusual to meet legal immigrants who only speak Greek.

So yes, it DOES seem to me that there are lots of people of Mexican descent around me working the near by construction site. Unfortunately I don't speak Spanish and don't have the time to poll every one to see if they have the proper papers or not. I just smile and play peek-a-boo with their kids instead.

[madokie]

30. it used to be for sure but a new law came into effect last november

that has slowed it down somewhat. Of which I personally am very happy for. Oklahoma hb 1804. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hb+1804

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. And the Hispanics are leaving Mexico and moving to Kansas

They didn't go back south of the border.

[madokie]

90. of course not as long as there is employers who are willing to hire them

My problem is with the employers not the workers themselves. Around here we have another group of people who we have to compete with who don't pay taxes. When you hire them you have two options, one, cash, or two, write the check out to their church, which then cashes it and then gives the workers their money minus gods 10 percent. It was hard for honest people like myself to compete against someone who is an undocumented worker or someone who does not pay taxes on their earnings, both of which can work cheaper that I can due to those two facts.

I know I've said some pretty harsh words about undocumented workers in the past and for that I am sorry, I should have chosen my words better and I do take full responsibility for not having done that.

There's lots of blame to go around on this but just letting anyone who wants to come here and work under the table so to say, is not the answer. I have a life too and it cost me more money to stay afloat than someone who has nothing to begin with.

I stand in solidarity with my fellow American construction workers, always have and always will. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. At one of our county Dem meetings recently,

the union guys came and showed us the best film about contracting and subcontracting. The film said that no one hires regular full time laborers anymore, they make everyone a contractor so they don't have to pay for insurance or taxes, etc. Then if a worker gets hurt on the job, he is immediately hired on as a full time employee, so he then gets workman's comp.

You are right, the workers are not the enemy. They are just hardworking people with families to feed, much like many of the rest of us. Another fact that is often left out of this conversation is that they don't really want to be here, they would rather be back home with their families.

[dysfunctional press]

32. there seems to be a lot of immigrants coming into the trades in our area-

but i don't think that most of them are illegal. A LOT of eastern europeans in the skilled trades, hispanics doing the laboring jobs, heavy machinery/cartage still seems to be mostly white guys.

BUT- we're still a fairly strong union state/area- no "right to work" laws or any of that union-busting crap, and there are still plenty of people making decent wages doing the work.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[spanone]

34. there are a lot of immigrants in the business....illegals? who knows.

i have a friend in the landscaping business and most of the folks he works with are hispanics and they HAVE to have their papers in order or they don't work.

[Fumesucker]

37. Not all employers are so scrupulous.. n/t

[spanone]

80. and not all employers are unscrupulous

[Fumesucker]

101. Enough are that it has become a major problem. n/t

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

41. Yes, a lot here in southeastern NC

How do I know they are here illegally? Because I am an immigration paralegal/consultant and I consult with them everyday, numerous times a day. A few are diversifying in other fields such as landscaping and golf course maintenance, while another few are leaving and a smaller number are choosing to stick it out in construction.

Most are hard working people, although most of them (in the interest of full disclosure) have one or more DUIs on their record. One of my clients explained that it is cultural, in that drinking and driving are not considered a 'bad' thing in some countries and are not seen as a criminal offense, which comes to a shock to most when I tell them that having two or more misdemeanors (as DUIs can be in NC) may disqualify them from any immigration benefits should the immigration law change (currently, there is no provision in U.S. immigration law to assist people who enter the U.S. without inspection, unless a life or death emergency can be used to request a waiver of inadmissibility).

[dawgman]

48. Hard to say whether legal or undocumented

I work for a large general contractor and it is not our job to do the background checks on the employees of the sub-contractors. That being said it would seem as though there would be a few. All the non-union subs are either Former Soviet bloc or Hispanic.

[Fumesucker]

51. If you speak the language it's not difficult to get them to open up.

A sympathetic ear is all most people need to start venting..

I ask about how they got here and what problems they have, that sort of thing.

[dawgman]

98. Actually as a manager of their manager

I am technically not allowed to interact with them at work. Outside of a few pleasantries I don't really interact with them to avoid confusion about the chain of command.

[LanternWaste]

52. don't really make it a habit to ask people...

I don't know. I live in North Central Texas, but I don't really make it a habit to ask people about their current resident status. I imagine people would likely get offended if I start butting into their business.

Seems to me that asking someone if they're here illegally is as bad in form as is asking someone how much money they make.

Seems to me to be the height of rudeness to go approach some Joe Blow off the street and ask him if he's an "illegal immigrant". I imagine if someone asked me that question, I'd reply with, "It's none of your fucking business, asshole!"

Odd thing though-- I've never been asked that question. I wonder if it has anything to do with me being a lily-white Anglo. As a matter of fact, I wonder if any lily-white Anglo has been asked that question in the past eighty-five years. I wonder why we, for the most part reserve that question only for our Latino friends.... :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

54. It's different when you are on the job with someone and speak the language..

I talk to people on the job and it often becomes obvious very quickly that they are not legal residents..

Most illegal immigrants are used to rejection by Americans, particularly white Americans, and are quick to talk to someone who is sympathetic to their plight.

[LanternWaste]

78. I am on the job with a large number of Latinos

I am on the job with a large number of Latinos and I speak passable conversational Spanish from having lived in Q-Roo for eighteen months. It's still none of my business, and I don't attempt to infer resident status.

I'm sure if you're looking for documentation on the number of undocumented workers, it's most likely readily available-- and a helluva lot more valid than anecdotal evidence and personal experience...

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Are you asking them for Green Cards?

How do you know they are undocumented?

[Fumesucker]

64. You *could* try reading the thread before asking a question that has been answered already..

But then you couldn't engage in knee jerkism, eh?

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Or you could just answer the question

Since you don't appear to be interested, I guess you don't have an answer.

[Fumesucker]

92. Read the thread.

Or is that too much to ask?

[LanternWaste]

147. Why not simply do an internet search...

Why not simply do an internet search to find the statistics you're looking for?

(or is that too much to ask...?)

People are attempting to give you answers and you simply dismiss or minimize those that don't appear to fit into your already preconceived answer.

[Zavulon]

99. I can't say they're illegal with any degree of certainty, but

almost every single one is hispanic and well under six feet tall. This is both where I live (Laurel, Maryland), where I work (D.C.) and where I usually stay (at my girlfriend's place in Arlington).

The person who introduced me to this site worked construction in the area until about 1995, after which he even couldn't find a job for less than half his usual pay.

Logically, I'd have to assume that the answer to your question is an overwhelming 'yes.'

[ismnotwasm]

106. I have no idea about "a lot"

I know a women who hires undocumented workers, because according to her, "they're invisible" meaning, I suppose, she doesn't pay taxes, insurance, thinks she's not liable if they are injured. Of course she's an idiot and a Republican. And a racist.

I live in a neighborhood with a very high immigrant population, the ones I know are legal, or on some sort of visa.

[galledgoblin]

114. I don't blame the workers for taking what they can get

I blame NAFTA for making their lives back home too miserable and too poor to stay

to a lesser extent, I blame the people hiring them, because sometimes they can afford to hire legals and cover safeties and benefits, but they are too greedy to do so. this is the case in a number of meatpacking plants like the one just closed.

this is not the case with the struggling independent small family farms trying to scrape out a living and finding themselves forced to hire migrants, which is what I see much more often than in construction.

[Texasgal]

120. I wouldn't know

just by simply looking at them if they are illegal or not...

How do you know? Do you ask for their papers?

[Stinky The Clown]

123. I going to assume your question is formed of textbook ignorance, and not racism

First off, how would anyone know if 'a lot' of the workers are illegal unless we know each worker personally or the news has been swamped with stories of raids and deportations? Since it is safe to assume that neither is true, we are left with only one thing ...... you see lots of short statured brown people who speak mostly Spanish on job sites and you assume they're what the right wing bigots tell you they are ...... illegal.

Either that or you've been watching way too much Pat Buchanan or Lou Dobbs.

[Fumesucker]

129. Maybe on the other hand you know people who employ illegal immigrants..

[Stinky The Clown]

136. Actually, I don't.

Anything else?

[madokie]

180. go to one of the job sites you're referring to and mention the Feds

you'll see real quick who the illegals are. just saying ;-)
No I'm not a bad guy but I'm not going to lay down and watch an invasion of illegal workers come here and take our jobs and do nothing. I was a construction worker all my life and spent the last 15+ years of that career finishing concrete and it was getting hard to find any local finishers still able to do the work of their love because they can't or won't work for pennies on the dollar that they were beginning to have to up to November of last year when hb 1804 took effect. Things are looking much better now in the construction trades around here and I'm elated for that, just down right happy.

yes I am

[Blue_In_AK]

125. Anchorage has a large immigrant population

and they work. I have no idea if they're legal or illegal, and I really don't care.

[Freddie Stubbs]

138. I'm not in the habit of visiting construction sites and asking workers about immigration status

[Lone_Star_Dem]

139. This is Texas. We have a HUGE population of born American and naturalized Latinos

How am I, at a glance, supposed to tell them from an illegal immigrant?

I personally know several who are legal citizens working in construction trades. What really gets to them is they're always being accused of bringing their "illegal" relatives from Mexico here to work for them. Not true. Hell, one guy's a fourth generation American and has no known family anyplace but in the US. Still they hear it all the time and have had to prove their own citizenships on more than one occasion when some asshole called INS on them. But that's not harassment stemmed from bigotry. Nah. It's patriotic Americans trying to protect their jobs.

I'd like to point out that I only made mention of Latinos specifically because from reading your replies further up thread I see you only reference Spanish speaking immigrants.

[blondeatlast]

142. I don't know. The construction workers around here don't wear signs, buttons, or t-shirts

issued by the Department of Homeland Security.

[Mountainman]

150. Do you ask them if they are here illegal? Do they say they are?

Or do you suspect they are illegal? Why not go to the owner of the company and complain? Did you that?

[OhioChick]

151. Construction in Cleveland?

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

152. Are there a lot of gay workers in the construction trades where you live? nt

[Dr Fate]

154. There are!

It's funny- my girlfriend's hairdresser is straight but the burly carpenter who lives next door to us is gay.

Ya gotta love it when the stereotypes get a little blurry.

Then again, I'm told I live in a very "elitist" area...

[blondeatlast]

155. Interesting, yes, but not really my point.

:hi:

[FlaGranny]

153. Almost 100% of construction

workers around here are Hispanic, but I have no idea whether they are legal or not.

[ecstatic]

159. I don't know if they're illegal or not... As someone who monitored

new construction properties as well as my own back in 2004, I saw nothing but mexican immigrants working in construction sites around metro Atlanta. They couldn't speak English. They were really nice though.

Construction has slowed considerably since that time, of course.

[thunderdog]

161. In SE VA, Mexicans have pretty much taken over the drywall, concrete,

roofing and carpentry trades. I suspect it will not be long before they begin to infiltrate the PM & E trades as well. They are driving trade wages down and making it tough on legitimate American workers.

I am consultant for fedgov contractors and these contractors cannot use Mexicans because they cannot get them onto fedgov installations. The upside is that their workers are Americans who get paid based on Davis-Bacon. The downside relates to the fact that these contractors cannot compete on non-government projects.

Sooner or later, either Dems or GOPer are going to seize this issue. Whichever one goes first will win many elections.

[blondeatlast]

165. Wow--you must have x-ray vision or intuition!

You know they are Mexicans HOW?

Can I tell the world I know someone with superhuman powers, like Superman?

Cool--that's why I LOVE this place and our new guests! :rofl:

Edit: Jeez--I just noticed your username--I am SO very honored to know a legitimate superhero!

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. I can't speak for every area

but the majority of the Latinos I interact with are NOT Mexican. Some are even from <gasp!> Puerto Rico. Of course, that means they are US citizens. But we are trying to keep that quiet. :rofl:

[blondeatlast]

170. Well, the Latinos around Phoenix have the decency to wear flag pins on their lapels!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

171. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Saphire]

168. I work in new home construction in San Antonio...here's what

our breakdown is. Out of the 14 sub contractors working for the company.....

2 white americans

3 mexican americans

4 Mexicans (legal)

5 Mexicans ( maybe not so legal)

I'd say around here thats pretty average.

[mdmc]

172. not if it is a labor job. otherwise....yup...

in the hudson valley we have a weak union that don't get much, except county gov work, which is still big.

[Greyhound]

173. The invasion has barely begun here, but already the wages are collapsing and the

numbers of illegal workers is approaching 50%.

Of course the real problem is not illegal immigration, it is illegal employment. The only way to curb this trend is to hit employers hard, really hard. The first time a major offender is bankrupted by the fines/penalties from hiring illegal workers, the picture will radically change.