Phony rice shortage. Phony WMD. Phony Social Security Crisis. Phony Gulf of Tonkin...

[Hannah Bell]

Incident....Panama - phony. Grenada - phony. The 73 oil shock - phony.

Which "crises" of the last 100 years WEREN'T phony?


Do you ever get the feeling real democracy is sorely needed?

Or do you enjoy living in the matrix of phoniness, jumping at shadows like a puppet, your entire life story directed by others & you don't even know who?

How can we live a real life when we don't know what's true or false?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Do tell me then what is the agenda of the world food fund?

I mean they are the ones pushing the fake rice crisis...

There are days

By the way I should intro you to the guy round these parts... he wears, a tin foil hat, for real

[Hannah Bell]

3. Yep, there are days. Tin foil hat yerself. There's no rice shortage.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/22

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It has gone up by over 100% in a quarter

so tell me what is the UN agenda here?

[Hannah Bell]

5. It hasn't gone up because it's in short supply. More was produced

in 2007 than 2006.

How should I know what the "UN Agenda" is?

But I know there's no shortage of rice, even though the major media keep telling me there is. I just have to look at production increase v. population increase.

[Mojorabbit]

6. In the countries

where people who eat ride daily cannot afford it or the country cannot buy it...there is a shortage, even though technically there is enough rice globally. Everything is fucked up lately.

[Hannah Bell]

7. yep, because they can't buy it. Shortage of money, not rice.

[Hannah Bell]

9. Which doesn't explain the case of California yuppies stocking

up because the MSM told them there was a world-wide "shortage."

[sandnsea]

Exactly right

Don't get discouraged, repost as often as you can find an article about the "food shortage". There is no "food" shortage, there's a money shortage and that's an entirely different problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. DING, DING, DING, DING

one of the causes... but according to our friend this is manufactured... so I will have to ask again, what is the FAO's agenda here?

And everybody has one

(For the record another cause according to FAO, is distribution and nations hoarding local production)

[Hannah Bell]

12. Ding ding ding What? Why are prices high when there's no physical

shortage?

Shortage of money, yes. Rice, no.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Simple, if I will not export my rice to your country

and your country does not have enough rice to meet local needs, YOUR local rice will go up

Regardless of international production numbers

Incidentally my prices will remain even or even go down, as I get a rice glut, to my local zone

But in the meantime WORLD price will go up, since I, and several other major producers, are hoarding our rice.

Ironically this is simple supply and demand.

Oh and there is more... since most nations do not have sealed silos, most of that hoarded rice will spoil and go bad... see I did read the report

So once again... what is the FAO's agenda here?

Oh and if I don't have rice, REGARDLESS of the cause, that is known as a shortage. In a shortage, whatever i have of that good will go UP in price.

[sandnsea]

20. It's a MONEY shortage

Not a rice shortage. There was food during the Irish Famine too, they were shipping it to England because they had money to pay for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. No, not money, DISTRIBUTION....

I know if you are wearing a tinfoil hat all will seem to be part of a big conspiracy

You still have to explain to me the agenda here.

I realize this is driven by panic... and that panic behavior is quite unpredictable.

I also realize that for those starving this is not theory, but reality

I also realize that this has reached these coasts and MIGHT drive people from their duffs

Funny... if there is an agenda... I cannot see how this manufactured crisis will help the ruling classes.

Hunger is a big driver of revolutions... the violent kind.

[Hannah Bell]

31. tin foil hat yerself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. AGENDA?

[Hannah Bell]

37. Yeah, what's yours? I wrote a fact: 2007 rice production was 2 million

tons more than 2006 = no shortage.

I'm not required to define anyone's "agenda" because I noticed a fact that many seemingly overlooked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I am asking you what is the agenda?

What is driving this? After all this could take millions to the edge of starvation... in fact possibly some millions to actual starvation and death

If this is on purpose, WHY?

I asked a simple question. WHAT IS THE AGENDA? And all actions, have one

[Hannah Bell]

49. You're boring me. I've told you, it's not mine to speculate on the

motives of food distribution agencies. If you can't accept that answer, too bad. Besides, the UN is now saying it's speculation driving the prices.

I noted a set of facts. They're true facts, & they have nothing to do with "shortage due to rising demand for meat in China," "ethanol production," or any of the phony explanations for the price rises our fearless journalists gave us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. You are the one providing the conspiracy theory

for the record there are real conspiracies... but when providing one you should have an agenda...

By the way ETHANOL is part of the shortage of CORN... NOT RICE... thought you like to know that

As to boring. sorry... if I ask for a full explanation

[noise]

58. Real crisis, false attribution

Crisis was created by market speculation and then spun by media who not only made the crisis worse with fearmongering (SHORTAGE!!!!) but also failed to properly analyze the problem.

This seems to be the case being made in the thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Not quite, why I took insult at this

the OP said this was a false crisis... like any other crisis in the last hundred years

And yes, the crisis is very real and it was made quite worst by market forces (if ever there was a case to highly regulate them in critical matters like oh... food)

[noise]

66. I don't think the OP is denying the suffering caused by

the shortage of rice. Rather the OP seems to reject the media driven idea that the crisis was due to insufficient quantities of rice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. The OP also said that every crisis was created

why I took exception to it

If that is the case, we need to have an agenda. And quite possibly there is one.... start by discrediting the UN... further...

And for FAO to raise the alarm... since they do detail the media driven management of this crisis, is self protection

Conflicting agendas... and that is all I asked for

We need to be able to from facts to ANALYSIS, and not just say that every crisis was manufactured.

[noise]

72. I'm no expert on this subject

but I read The Shock Doctrine. The agenda was profit and control (privatization) regardless of the human suffering inflicted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. There you go... disaster capitalism

But we all need to be able to jump from facts to analysis... (and the book is magnificent by the way, and when combined with the Death of America: Letter of Warning to an American Patriot, it is down right scary)

[Hannah Bell]

150. The poster is correct. A phony crisis can mean a non-existent one

or one precipitated with lies & false attribution of causes.

There was no rice shortage. The price rise created shortage because it priced people out & created various kinds of hoarding.

The price rises started when big money went into futures.

[Art_from_Ark]

78. 2007 world rice production might have been 2 million tons more

than 2006 figures, but how many more mouths were there to feed with that rice? How much rice does the average person in a country where rice is the staple food consume per year? And how many more people are competing in that country to get the rice that is available?

[sandnsea]

40. If people had money, the rice would get distributed

No conspiracy. Just the beloved market. Same as it was during the Irish Famine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. FAO actually has some on that

and they have people they are blaming for this...

They just don't go there fully...

But as usual this is a distribution problem and the price of a vital food stuff is higher locally because of perceived or REAL shortages (The potato famine was actually driven by a real shortage, local that is)

[sandnsea]

46. They had other food then

Just like there is plenty of food now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Rice is the ONLY source of calories

for half a billion people... small factoid

[sandnsea]

57. Then we better put people over money n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. That is beyond saying, but for that to happen we need a huge

change in society. Perhaps it will come after peak oil and the geat die out.

Go ahead, call me miss sunshine

[sandnsea]

71. We need people using the correct language

We do not have a rice shortage, we have a money shortage. Then everybody with cupboards full of twinkies and fruit loops will go, oooooh, and demand some method of feeding the world's people, much like we have food stamps in this country. But as long as we keep playing the games described in the OP, we'll keep being bamboozled about what is really causing the problems, and the people who will suffer the most don't have a say at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. The problem is that the language of shortage is accurate

in the local areas where you have a shortage...

The mechanics of how you get there have all to do with manipulation, but once you see a real food shortage, you never forget it

[sandnsea]

76. If the local people had the money

would the rice get shipped to them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Not necessarily and that is part of the problem

in an ideal world nations would be self sufficient (for the record the US is no longer self sufficient either)

Also you would have jobs that would pay enough to fulfill basic needs...

That said, having the money does not necessarily translate to access to food...

That is not a given.

[sandnsea]

85. Oh nonsense

You pay the price, you get the food. Don't be ridiculous. It's always worked that way, no matter what era, no matter what country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Not always

but hey your mileage will vary

[Hannah Bell]

29. For the third time, the price rise preceded the export bans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. And for the fourth time, the crisis is not phony and is driven by panic

you still have to tell me what is the agenda here

[Hannah Bell]

39. Panic = many people telling you there's a shortage.

The reports of shortage preceded the panic.

But there was no shortage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. The shortage in local areas is very real right now

for whatever reason... again that FAO report

Pesky I know

And they also say it is a DISTRIBUTION problem... oh well... there are days

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I'll have to ask again, what is the FAO agenda? Everybody has one

and they are the ones raising these concerns.

Why I say... there is a crisis... and by the way it MIGHT have zero to do with production

But if you say that this is manufactured... you have to ask yourself what is the agenda of the MAJOR agency supplying food to half a billion people.

They ARE the major buyers

And if they are saying that there is a crisis... sorry if I take their word for it

By the way, in case you wonder, the food riots in haiti were real... the rationing in the US were real... and the protests and marches in Mexico City were real. They are the tip of the spear

[Hannah Bell]

11. The FAO production data doesn't say shortage. Check out the link

if you don't believe me.

The only country with a big drop in production was the US of A. Because of LOW PRICES.

http://www.fas.usda.gov/grain/circular/2006/05-06/Rice%2005-06.pdf

Despite that, the rest of the world muddled through to produce 2.5 million tons more than in 2006.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Read the report, while in Mexico City

see the local paper published the whole thing, in Spanish.

Again, what is THEIR agenda, since they brought this up.

[Hannah Bell]

15. You must have missed this page: 2006: 418 million tons. 2007: 420 million tons.

Added from the other poster:

"UN officials on Monday blamed market speculation for the recent jump in global food prices and called for a concerted effort to ensure the world's poor can afford to feed themselves.

"We have enough food on this planet today to feed everyone," the head of the UN Environment Program, Achim Steiner, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "


So I guess THAT's the UN's take.

Phony rice shortage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Do you UNDERSTAND market economics and how you can have a local

shortage when other NATIONS hoard it?

[Hannah Bell]

24. Do YOU understand that prices spiked well before anyone

cut off exports or began hoarding?

Those things followed the price spikes, they didn't set them off.

Sept 07: sudden spikes in the prices of all grains, 30%+ by December 07.

March 08: Vietnam & India cut off exports following rising international prices & MSM stories about "food shortage".

April 08: Haiti riot, WSJ article advising people to hoard food, yuppies start stocking up.


Phony crisis.

[noise]

30. Created by what?

Market speculation which is spun by the media in a way to suggest the real problem is dwindling production of the particular crop?

[Hannah Bell]

35. The sequence:

1. Futures trading increases, forward contracts bid up. starting 9/07
2. Retail increases. Notice in MSM ~ 1/08
3. Vietnam & India (both with plenty of rice, BTW) stop exports & MSM hysteria ramps up further
4. Haiti food riot & price reduction by Preval gov't 4/08
5. More MSM hysteria, including the Wall Street Journal encouraging readers to buy rice as "an investment" 4/08
5. Rice futures off highs 4/25

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. According to FAO the main reason for this particular one

was the fact that farmers expected more money for their crops and started to limit sales.

Once things got moving, they got a life of their own as nations started to close exports

It was prices... followed by controls, followed by higher prices, followed by lousy distribution... and it became a self feeding problem

At this point it does not matter how much rice was produced last year, the distribution of this vital crop is off whack... in a serious manner. Oh and local prices have gone through the roof

[Hannah Bell]

44. They expected more money for their sales because 9/07

futures prices spiked, i.e. the price rose. The rising prices created the expectation.

Why the rising prices? There was no frigging shortage.

Your explanations are all circular.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. So are FAO's explain the agenda

I am asking you to explain this. You are the one saying there is a great conspiracy.

(And there may be one)

But explain it... I'm not the one saying all these crisis over the last one hundred years are false false or other things... by the way you forgot Pearl Harbor and the Lusitannia

[Hannah Bell]

54. What IS your problem?

I noted a set of facts. I'm under no obligation to follow your orders.

The price spikes were spun in the media as being the result of a physical shortage of rice. But there was no shortage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. First I am not giving you orders

second you said in your OP that ALL the crisis in the last 100 years have been phony

If that is the case, there must be an agenda... asking for it.

After all if every crisis is a conspiracy, every crisis has to have an agenda behind it.

Sorry if I cannot live in a world where everything is a damn conspiracy theory.

There are conspiracies, that is for sure.

The Maine was one... just took seventy years to fully prove it, never mind Hearst Statements on it The agenda, EMPIRE

We did provoke the Germans in attacking the Lusitania, some might say after the Zimmermain Telegraph. The Agenda, some in power wanted to get into WW I

More recently there was Tonkin... we needed Vietman, or rather the powers that be needed Nam, like a bad dream

Grenada, well our sainted Reagan needed a distraction

Panama... part of the war on drugs

Somalia, Bush Senior needed to leave a mess for Clinton....

See, there are reasons for these things to happen...

I could even offer you an explanation for this one... and conflicting agendas.

FAO KNOWS that it cannot afford to feed the what is it 17 million that fully depend on it? Starvation leads to social disfunction, and where are these 17 million? Mostly Africa... and what will this do? Discredit the UN.... care to tell me how much the Bushes and Neocons like the UN? OF course, this assumes much... including that this was on purpose.... but see I can give you even a logical explanation beyond greed.

It is called ANALYSIS of facts. Try it sometime... next time you give us this sweeping statement that all that happened in the last hundred years is part of a huge conspiracy and crisis were created.

[Hannah Bell]

75. You have poor reading skills.

"you said in your OP that ALL the crisis in the last 100 years have been phony"

I did not. Please reread.


"there must be an agenda"

What's yours?


"conspiracy...damn conspiracy theory...conspiracies..."


"It is called ANALYSIS of facts. Try it sometime..."

It's called READING SKILLS. Try it sometime, & maybe a little less hostility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Here is YOUR OP

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 05:07 AM
Original message
Phony rice shortage. Phony WMD. Phony Social Security Crisis. Phony Gulf of Tonkin...

Edited on Wed Apr-30-08 05:08 AM by Hannah Bell
Incident....Panama - phony. Grenada - phony. The 73 oil shock - phony.

Which "crises" of the last 100 years WEREN'T phony?


Do you ever get the feeling real democracy is sorely needed?

Or do you enjoy living in the matrix of phoniness, jumping at shadows like a puppet, your entire life story directed by others & you don't even know who?

How can we live a real life when we don't know what's true or false?


----------------------------

Now this is the IMPORTANT section

Which "crises" of the last 100 years WEREN'T phony?

Excuse me for emphasizing this AGAIN and letting it speak for itself...

Now here are some POSSIBLE agendas for you

Chicago School Economics (Read Disaster Capitalism for a good intro on this)

The FAO trying hard to head them at the fork

Discrediting the UN.

The UN trying to defend itself

Or simply, though less likely unless you assume utter stupidity by the leading classes, GREED

Was this that painful? Yep, it was

[Hannah Bell]

90. Which "crises" of the last 100 years WEREN'T phony?

Do you understand the difference between a question & a statement?

Above: Question.

Statement: You don't understand the difference between a question & a statement.


Why indulge in conspiracy theory? Just the free market at work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Your OP speaks for itself

by the way here are some crisis that WERE NOT manufactured

Pearl Harbor

(yes there are some that believe it was, but damn the historical record does not support it)

And that is quite a big one

Of course 1929 was NOT manufactured either... but I am sure you will argue otherwise

The Cuba Missile Crisis was NOT manufactured either... and I am sure you will say otherwise

And those are just examples from the top of my head.

[Art_from_Ark]

The Lusitania was sunk in May 1915

The Zimmerman Telegram (sent from Germany to Mexico) was intercepted and decoded in January 1917.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. My mistake on that one

still the fact remains that some needed the US to enter WW I

[Art_from_Ark]

128. I will agree that members of America's elite were pushing

to enter the war. They wanted to enter on the side of Great Britain, but given the substantial German population in the US at the time, and the fact that the Europeans were fighting over the death of an Austrian archduke, it was difficult to rally the average American to support the cause. Even when the Lusitania was sunk, it didn't sway public opinion much, because it was a British ship and the Germans had posted notices in New York stating that it was carrying weapons and was therefore fair game for submarine attack. But what did rally public support was the public release of the Zimmerman Telegram in March 1917, which promised to return Texas, New Mexico and Arizona to Mexico if it joined the war on the German side, and 4 subsequent sinkings of American ships by submarines.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Exactly... and we have, to a point been paying ever since

1898 was the beginning of Empire and at Versaille we acted as an imperial power for the first time

:-)

[Prophet 451]

121. How about Iran-Contra?

Not accusing you, asking for an opinion because I still can't figure out what they hoped to gain from that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. You want the cynical answer or the propaganda answer?

The cynical answer, same shit as today, different region of the world... and fortunes were made

Propaganda... to stop them commies from coming to the US... since NIcaragua and El Salvador would spread their lefty thinking to the rest of the Americas

The truth is somewhere in between. They created a hell of an environment to steal but ideologically stopped the left from getting a real toe hold in CA, and continued to impress on the locals the need to bow down to the US.

[Prophet 451]

131. I'll go with cynical

I have two rules in life and conspiracy research which have never let me down:
1. People will believe what they want to believe or what they fear to be true.
2. Always bet on stupidity.

[Hannah Bell]

18. And I don't care if you read it in Antarctica, in Lapp.

You evidentally didn't read the most important page.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. What part of classic market economics are you missing here?

It is not manufactured and I guarantee this to you... for those who CANNOT afford to buy rice since it has gone up in some areas upwards of 400%, it matters little that THEORETICALLY we have enough rice.

They are STILL STARVING.

IT is still a crisis.

Do you get it now?

And it is not imagined either.

[Hannah Bell]

26. You're the one missing the classical economics.

Price rices are "classically" the result of shortage of a physical good.

Where the good is in adequate supply, the price should not rise 120%.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. If you had even distribution you'd have a point

you don't

And I will add, you haven't for at least thirty years

[Hannah Bell]

55. The same distribution as in 2006, when there was less supply,

& no huge price spikes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. The crisis is REAL right now

sorry to point this out

[HeresyLives]

13. There is no food shortage

GENEVA - UN officials on Monday blamed market speculation for the recent jump in global food prices and called for a concerted effort to ensure the world's poor can afford to feed themselves.

"We have enough food on this planet today to feed everyone," the head of the UN Environment Program, Achim Steiner, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2008/04/28/5409681-ap.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. DING, DING, DING, DING

that was also in the FAO report

Ironically classic supply and demand is driving this... and the riots are still real

[HeresyLives]

23. Riots are neither here nor there

Prices go up and local shortages occur due to hoarding and speculation, but the rest is fiction. There is no actual shortage of food.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. RIGHT.... tell that to those starving ok

By the way this little problem with distribution has been a reality since the green revolution

And you know a little ugly secret? Once the chemical revolution is over (Peak Oil, I guess that is also a figment of imaginations as well as global warming), our shortages will be world wide.

And that MIGHT be your answer... it is called dry run

OF course it is also panic, local market conditions, supply demand and all that crap... ah the things you learn from the HEAD of FAO for Latin America

[HeresyLives]

34. I'm not sure what your point is.

The fact that some local panics has been set off by fear-mongering is certainly regrettable, but we have plenty of food in the world. Warehouses full of the stuff in fact.

Have had for years.

It's just another way to make money. No shortage of oil either. Saudi Arabia said they could pump more, but there is plenty of crude on the market. We are awash in the stuff in fact.

Hoarding and speculation, no actual shortages. And people stampeded by headlines.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. hate to point his out but Peak Oil is real

and we don't have warehouses full of food either... nice fantasy you live in there... food has a limited life, relatively speaking, and it does spoil. So you do not have warehouses full of the stuff... at all times.

And yes speculation and price controls is part of the agenda, but not your sinne qua non answer to all that is bad with the world

[HeresyLives]

61. We have plenty of oil

We just don't have any more CHEAP oil.

And we have plenty of food. For the first time in history actually, we could feed the whole planet for several weeks if necessary, and it's been possible for about 20 years now.

Warehouses of perishables, no. Of flour, rice, cheese, grains and so on, yes. Massive amounts of frozen food as well.

In some country in Africa, Nigeria I believe, they are killing people as witches because they believe their genitals were stolen in the middle of the night.

Sad, pathetic, tragic in a personal sense, certainly, but not real.

Do you see any difference between that, and the stories you're believing? I don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. I guess global warming is also invented

by the way... have you ever seen the effects of war?

I have....

And I do KNOW for a fact that rice, wheat, flour, and other food items, do go bad. Damn disaster management and supply management.

I also know for a fact that the Hubert Peak Oil Curve IS REAL...

And he has been damn accurate. He was off by one year in the US... and I beleive two for Mexico... and we crossed Peak in 2005 for the Saudis.

I know that pesky thing called science....

Could we replace Oil? Yep...

Are we investing in it? Nope, not really

Will this bring down the American Empire? Yep...

[HeresyLives]

77. You leap about from topic to topic

This is about the world food supply, not global warming, and there is no shortage of food.

Yes, I have seen the effects of war, first hand as a matter of fact.

Everything goes 'bad' given enough time, but there is also lots of land not being used for food when it could be. There is just no need for it at the present time.

I am a firm scientific type, so I base what I say on science. There is no shortage of food, or oil, or anything else. It may be more expensive than you're used to, but that is a result of hoarding and speculators, not shortages. Is it good? No, but it's normal, given human nature.

Could we replace oil? Of course we could. No we are not doing so, because there is far too much money to be made in oil right now.

Will it bring down the American Empire? Probably.

Wars, Imperial Overstretch, massive debt, printing money at random; all those things are bringing down the American Empire.

So is hoarding and speculation. But there is no actual shortage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Okie dokie, so we are all imagining the huberts peak

or local food shortages

Okie dokie....

[HeresyLives]

98. Well if you want to believe

the world is coming to an end, that's up to you. Nothing I can say will ever get through to you. Maybe you could just burn a couple of witches to fend it off? That's been the traditional remedy.

Get folks fighting amongst themselves, and they'll forget to look for the actual source of the problem.

But 6 months from now, I guarantee this particular 'problem' will be forgotten and some other 'crisis' will be in the headlines.

And you'll attribute the passing of it to the burning of witches, when it was a non-existent 'crisis' to begin with. Or maybe you'll have forgotten about it altogether in your concern over some new cause being hyped. The 'next new thing'

As long as you can be led around by the nose, you will be, and you'll see disaster everywhere and act accordingly.

We have a long history of such foolishness, and yet, and yet, the world is still here and more prosperous than ever before in history. In spite of insane rulers, wild stories, and stampeding over every headline and rumor.

Good Night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. No, the world is not coming to an end... but the age of oil is

How we respond AS A GLOBAL SOCIETY to this little factoid, will determine how well we will do

Given how and what we, as a species, have been doing... hard times are coming... but in the end, if the mass extinction does not take us out (apex species and all that jazz) then we will adapt and overcome, and go into the next era of human social evolution.

By the way, this is not me... but SOLID science.

[sandnsea]

42. market speculation = MONEY

Jesus what the hell is your "ding ding ding" about when that's exactly what we've been saying. There's a money shortage, not a rice shortage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Sorry, but that does not fly fully

you see... if that is the real cause for everything these guys are setting the grounds for a World Wide Revolution

I know greed makes people stupid...

And I will leave you with that

Again, what is FAO's agenda here?

[sandnsea]

56. To keep people from starving??

Because they don't have the money to pay the fat fucks for a cup of rice that they're turning into gold.

I mean, what the hell do you think is causing all the unrest around the world? Anger about not being able to choose between shopping at Target and Walmart?

Yeah, the world is ripe for a global revolution. Why the hell do you think some of us are in a bit of a panic about getting the right President.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. On that point, we have a fine choice

a fascist, a fascist light or a corporatist... sorry the train left the station a while ago

;-(

And no, I ain't looking forwards to a real violent revolution... but it is comming

[Hannah Bell]

80. Not if people quit believing in lies, & spreading them.

[sandnsea]

89. Sometimes I just wonder how we'll ever get out of this

People believe all the food has just disappeared 100 miles from Florida (Haiti), but not IN Florida. I swear to god...

:banghead:

[wildbilln864]

2. Phoney 911 Story started it all! nt

:hide:

[L. Coyote]

25. The rip off isn't phoney. We are all getting our pockets emptied by BIG OIL

and the Bush/Cheney Junta paved the highway these robber barons rode in on!!

[wiggs]

43. Phony energy crisis. Fake Lynch rescue. Fake Tillman heroism. Fake turkey. Fake cowboy. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. If this was US driven... you'd have a point

hell, they tell me the sky is blue, I look out the window

But it wasn't ONLY the US government... the main driver of this was the FAO...

[Hannah Bell]

60. No, it wasn't. Where you pulled that from, i have no idea.

Here: in feb 08 they were predicting 2% production rises in 08, & talking unhysterically about easing the current "tight" situation. If you understand that rice is harvested throughout the year in vietnam & thailand, the two biggest suppliers, you understand they're talking about new rice coming in march.

http://www.un.org/radio/9215.asp

The hysteria had barely started in feb, & it wasn't the fao pushing it. Their stats are pretty easy to read.

[ruby slippers]

67. wasn't it that they are making a hybrid rice and want/need to

get rid of all the old stuff now so they faked the shortage?

BTW, Rice-A-Roni is on sale at my local supermarket this week....10 for 10.00 or 1.00 a box. I'm stocking up!

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. the GMO seed is not allowed all over the world though

But there is something to that....

[babylonsister]

82. Food shortage is phony? Try to explain this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3225132&mesg_id=3225132

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. But, but...

according to some on this OP all this is just manufactured....

I know

:-(

It boggles the mind

[sandnsea]

88. It's because the Haitians have NO MONEY

Jeesh. You don't seriously believe the United States can't get food to Haiti do you??

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. I know for a fact (having actually worked with an NGO) that is NOT that fucking

simple.

I wish it was... but it is not...

Again your mileage will vary.

[sandnsea]

92. YES it fucking is - if there's enough money

Again, do you seriously believe there's no extra food in Florida to ship to Haiti?? You seriously believe it would be a real trial to get food from Florida to Haiti?

WE are letting people starve - again - just like Katrina. We're letting them LIE to us, again and again and again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Ok, I will ask this once again

given the US government is full of lying bastards....

WHAT IS THE FAO AGENDA?

[sandnsea]

96. M-O-N-E-Y, to buy food, jeez louise

To ship it to places where the people are too poor to buy it themselves. M-O-N-E-Y

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Once again it is NOT THAT SIMPLE

SORRY to break this to you....

Once again WHAT IS THE FAO'S AGENDA? WHAT IS THE US GOVERNMENT AGENDA? WHY THEY HAVE NOT DONE WHAT LOGISTICALLY IS FAIRLY SIMPLE?

By the way I wish I lived in that simplistic of a world view.

[sandnsea]

99. You're just brainwashed

and I can't help you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Not quite, have been in the front lines with an NGO

so let me tell you some of the facts you are missing

1.- In order for ANY organization to move a cargo container or a plane from country A to country B you need PERMISSION from the host government to land. They are called LANDING RIGHTS. At times it is as simple as BRIBING the local officials... at times it is easy and at times it is IMPOSSIBLE since local governments ARE INVESTED in keeping sectors of their population on the edge of starvation

2.- Once you secure landing rights, you need to secure STORAGE rights, which includes things like oh SECURITY... as in LOCAL security. At some points this requires again bribing, at times you find folks who are highly professional and truly want to help

3,0 Then you need to MOVE this food to the area that needs the help. This may involve bribes of local officials or not, depends on the country

4.- Then you need to set DISTRIBUTION points... which involve a fair amount of security as well (ideally) as health care for those who need emergency medical care.

And finally, IN AN IDEAL WORLD, you need to leave a team behind to asses the results of this intervention, and in some cases to continue to BRIBE the usual suspects to continue to gain landing rights

But you see it is NOT just about MONEY... and having been there, done that I know it is NOT THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

Perhaps you should try to step into the real world where the rest of us live. For the record, Haiti keeps having cyclical problems with feeding their population since oh 1808 when they became independent... care to tell me why? And it goes well beyond MONEY.

[sandnsea]

105. And none of that has to do with FOOD shortages

Currently, Haiti is not having a FOOD shortage, they are having a MONEY shortage. Most all of the problems you listed can be resolved with MONEY. MONEY, or the exploitation of local resources to make MONEY, are the root of just about every war in every country around the globe. Haiti has problems feeding its people, primarily, because of various dictators mismanaging the island's resources and MONEY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. They are not having a food shortage

Okie dokie....

[Hannah Bell]

151. What's France's agenda? what's Russia's agenda?

what's israel's agenda? What's your ngo's agenda? What's the Better Business Bureau's agenda?

The fact remains: no physical rice shortage, not even in haiti. When preval lowered prices, no more riots, no more dirt cookie stories.

Report from one who visited there: food in the markets. people buying.

[Hannah Bell]

100. Haiti is 100 miles from the US. We fly - among other things -

tourists, drugs, mangos & diplomats to Florida.

But it's veddy, veddy complicated to fly rice in, for some reason.

You worked for an NGO. That explains a lot.

My friend has a pilot's license. I could raise several hundred pounds of rice & gas money right in this community.

Who are you kidding?

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. In the real world after you raise the gas and the tons of rice

I hope you have some extra money for the bribes needed to arrange for landing rights and so on....

It ain't that fucking simple... I wish it was... but it is not

By the way with Haiti there is a pattern going back to Independence... and it has all to do with the ruling classes

Once you figure it out... you will understand why they usually do not allow for them landing rights

[sandnsea]

109. Oh, it has to do with the "ruling classes" - and their MONEY n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Again not quite that simple... and if you are trying to push a Marxist analysis

you are missing this by a mile as well

[sandnsea]

117. I'm collecting a list of places to donate

Because everything I've read says the problem is MONEY. It has nothing to do with Marixsm, how stupid. It has to do with reality. There's food rotting. If the people had MONEY, they could buy it. That's what is being recommended.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. I wish it was that simple and it was ONLY about money

sorry if I can see beyond that

That said ALL NGOs have asked for money for about fifteen years

You know why?

I will tell you why? (and I forgot I am propagandized and I have no clue how this works, because I have never done this and I buy all the propaganda they sell)

If you take, lets say ... ten pallets of food to country A... and it is NOT what they locally eat, does not matter how hungry they are... they won't touch it. This is called a food taboo

So you'd rather have MONEY so you can buy culturally adequate food... in this case rice and I believe beans.

Funny story from the Mexico City Quake... the Nordic countries sent several tons of smoked fished... salmon to be specific and herring... guess where that ended up? Black market. That was next to the last time large donor nations sent food and instead they started giving money to buy locally acceptable foods

See... it is more complex than you think.

By the way... try the International Committee of the Red Cross... I can bet my ass they are raising money for the Haitian Red Cross and to RENT the vessels they will need to move the food.... called logistics.

[Hannah Bell]

125. There's a pattern going back further than that, & it has to do

with the ruling classes, sure - but which ones?

[babylonsister]

101. I wish ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3225132&mesg_id=3225132

[sandnsea]

102. Oh come on, you're smarter than that

WE are letting this happen. Come on. You don't think we couldn't get food there in one day if we wanted to? We should be screaming about this. We have food in this country. This should no more be happening in Haiti than Katrina happened in New Orleans. It's absurd. There is food to ship to those people, the problem is they can't pay for it.

[babylonsister]

108. This country sucks if we can't help people who are eating dirt.

How do we stop it/help them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Given that those in power here do not care about Americans (and Katrina

wasn't the first time), there is little to say about our compassion to other countries... all propaganda aside, the US is one of the stingiest countries in the world

[sandnsea]

111. Stop believing there's no food in Florida

This thread thunked me upside the head. Well of course we can feed those people, what the hell was I thinking that there was no food to send to Haiti. :crazy:

I will look aroud online and see if there are organizations shipping food in.

[sandnsea]

113. Here's an article, send money

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-flrndhaitian0412sbapr12,0,2783896.story

I'll keep looking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. From your article

POMPANO BEACH - South Florida activists are calling on the Haitian government to drastically reduce custom fees and curb corruption at the ports, so food shipments can reach those desperately in need.


Them peksy landing rights...

Guess what local organizations will have to do?

Read what I wrote above?

By the way asking for MONEY and not food or clothes has been SOP for NGOs for the last fifteen years or so.

But it is NOT just about money

[sandnsea]

118. custom fees, corruption = MONEY

And if the people had a functioning government, they wouldn't be doing that, now would they. It's ALL about MONEY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. No, it is also SOCIAL RELATIONS... hard concept for those stuck on one

thing to understand... but when you bribe somebody is NOT just about giving them a chunk of money...

I know... hard to understand but it involves so much more than just money that it is hard to explain and it changes from culture to culture... hell there are some places I'd not be able to go into... because of my gender... oh I forgot, if I had enough money it would be enough RIGHT?

By the way, we do have (in theory) a functioning government. and we still have a fair amount of corruption and Cronyism. It just that it MOSTLY is at higher levels.

[sandnsea]

127. And the cronyism and corruption is killing some of us

because we don't have the money. And yes, there is cultural bribery in this country too, the mob, building inspectors, etc. But our government is primarily European Exploiters, so we never end up at the short end of the stick the way countries like Haiti do. It's money. If those people had it, they wouldn't be eating dirt. I can't understand why you deny it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Because it is NOT that simple

that is why

In particular for Haiti there has been an effort by people's of interest to keep the masses on the edge of starvation

it goes to the slave revolt of 1808, which scared some shitless, even if they led it.

That is why...

As to our elites, they don't care about you, or whether you starve or not... and in some regions of the country it is for the same reasons as Haiti, they need to keep you on the edge of starvation.

Money will help to solve the crisis, but to truly solve it you need to change the basic infrastructure of a society and how the society works. That is why I "don't see it." Mostly I see the shades of gray

[sandnsea]

130. Whether the society works to control the power and money

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. I forgot I am propagandized

you are right... I give up....

By the way if you are TRULY ever interested in doing a marxist analysis of this, which is what you are doing in the surface, there are several BRITISH historians who are pretty good at that and explaining the relationships.

Mind you... I have a problem with neo marxist analysis since it trends to be that simplistic... at least in my view. Eric Hobsbawn is particularly recommended, as well as EP Thomson

[sandnsea]

135. Who Fucking Cares

People are starving today. They're starving because they don't have enough money to buy food, or pay the bribes to get the food. Send them some. Jeez. How hard is that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. When I send money IT WILL BE To the ICRC

who will DISTRIBUTE IT...

Good and VALID reasons by the way

[Hannah Bell]

136. Your condescension. Seriously wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. It is not condescension, it is reality

When you concentrate ALL your analysis on money you are missing much of what is driving recurrent crisis.

Again, having seen this for real at work.

Not theory... REALITY

[sandnsea]

139. Every single thing you've stated points to MONEY

I can't figure out why you can't see it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. And I WILL NOT even try to understand why you cannot see that it is not that simple

it is NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY.

And with that it is time to say good night... reality is for you it will be always about money... and for me it is far more complex that just money.

And there is nothing you can say to convince me and there is nothing I can do or say to convince you... but I do highly recommend you READ those people...

EP Thomson and Eric Hobsbawn will explain much, from that perspective, the latter especially about the British Empire

And yes, BOTH should have books at the local library

[sandnsea]

144. Hey, eat your books

I know what makes the world go round - power and money.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Ah the anti intellectualism emerges and rears its ugly head

BRAVO

By the way this is a NEW AMERICAN VALUE

[sandnsea]

148. Oh right, only YOU have intelligence

Eat your books was the nicest thing I could think to say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. The Right will say the same thing about anybody suggesting to read a book

so, I stand by what I said. Anti Intellectualism IS the new American value

[Hannah Bell]

134. Of course you need to change society. That's why people go hungry

when there's NO SHORTAGE OF RICE!

One of the first ways to change society is to stop promulgating LIES that make it EASY to starve people! Like: "Ooooh, there's just not enough rice in the world because the Chinese ate it all!"

I don't know what you think you're arguing about. I suspect you're not a native speaker of English & are missing some nuance, no slur intended.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Ah the grammar flame... oooh boy

you are right, I am NOT a native speaker

I am also tired of semi popular neo marxist analysis some like to use on this site. What is even more fun is that some folks don't even realize they are using it.

And the rest of the bs.

I wish, and I mean this, I WISH it was that fucking simple... but the reality is not THAT simple

By the way the chinese didn't eat it all... and the FAO didn't say that either.... they charged this squarely on speculation

Again, which you refuse to do... what are the competing agendas here? I've even told them to you

By the way this unreal crisis IS coming to the US... and the only bright side of it is that it may get people off their duffs... perhaps Maslow should be in your readying list... it does NOT matter WHY the crisis came to be, it is REAL.

[Hannah Bell]

143. No, it's not a grammar flame. Your grammar is fine. You misinterpreted my original post

in two ways, & you're basically spending a lot of effort arguing over nothing.

Just like you seem to have taken the comment about the "chinese eating it all" seriously.

I guessed you must be a non-native speaker because you missed the nuance. another poster tried to clarify, but you wouldn't listen. His interpretation was correct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. If you say so

sorry if I read what you wrote and took you at your word...

I am sorry for that

And I am not arguing with you... just bothered with the phony marxist analysis

If people are going to engage in it, at least read the main authors.

Oh and the first part of this, the conspiracy theories galore

[Hannah Bell]

149. Yes, I said so, I said so politely, with no disparagement intended.

Sorry you can't accept it, & have to continue attacking me personally.

I'm not sure where you get the "Marxist analysis," either.

My point throughout has been very simple, & relies on no political analysis.

There was no physical rice shortage.

Many other "crises" - also phony.

People who live believing in lies live lives someone else made for them.

Real democracy is needed.

Pretty American.

[sandnsea]

147. Two places to donate

http://www.brighthope.org/dirt
Receive 6 dirt cookies so you will understand the plight of the impoverished.


Food For The Poor has an extensive infrastructure in Haiti. Our constant awareness of the import regulations, as well as our consistent diligence in fulfilling all custom requirements in a timely and efficient manner, enable us to get supplies expedited as quickly as possible for distribution to the people who need it the most.
http://www.foodforthepoor.org/site/c.dnJGKNNsFmG/b.4011795/k.8864/News_Updates.htm">Food For The Poor

[Hannah Bell]

119. From your post: The "dirt cookie" story.

"Last night on PBS I saw what Haitians are subsisting on. Mix a bit of road dirt with butter and water, let it harden in the sun, eh voila'! That's dinner. Absolutely no nutritional value, but apparently this stuff makes you feel somewhat full."

Couple things you should know.

Haitians eating "dirt cookies" isn't a new thing. It's not "road dirt," it's particular clays imported from central Haiti. They have some nutritional value (mineral content) & are eaten in normal times, & sold in the market.

"At the market in the La Saline slum, two cups of rice now sell for 60 cents, up 10 cents from December and 50 percent from a year ago. Beans, condensed milk and fruit have gone up at a similar rate, and even the price of the edible clay has risen over the past year by almost $1.50. Dirt to make 100 cookies now costs $5"

Clay-eating is a wide-spread cultural phenomenon.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2669

Here's a picture of a Haitian market, 4/08.

http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w14/img.185921.html

A DU'er with ties to Haiti reports her friend just returned & media reports are exaggerated.

Take a look at pictures of the rioters in Haiti. Are they "starving" people, or poor people rioting over the price of food?



On edit: Preval is now subsidizing rice prices & voila - no more rice shortage in Haiti.

[sandnsea]

86. If they had money, the food would be shipped tomorrow

It's a money shortage, not a food shortage. There is plenty of food on the planet.

[Mind_your_head]

95. Wow - I'm not gonna read all of those answers......but all of that 'comment'

with only 5 recommends at this point, surely tells me something.....

Thanks for the good post Hannah Bell. Some (most?) people will go to great lengths to defend their 'phoney', eh?

Peace,
M_Y_H

[earth mom]

116. Don't forget the biggest hoax of all: 911 and the War on Terra.

It was MIHOP or LIHOP all the way-both of which have only served to screw us all big time, not to mention kill thousands or is it millions? of innocent people.

I'm reading The Shock Doctrine right now and I'd say that 911.5 is well on the way, so the powers that be can privatize everything they can lay their grubby hands on.

[Prophet 451]

123. Which "crises" of the last 100 years WEREN'T phony?

World War II (although admittedly, some stupidity went into the cause of that)
Watergate
The Tunguska Incident
Profumo Affair

You're going to need to define "phony" here...

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. I can think of one or two more

Katrina

The Great Flood of 1927

Oh and the Great Depresion

[orleans]

142. phony president. phony "values" voters. n/t

[judasdisney]

152. T h e S h o c k D o c t r i n e

CRISES are MANUFACTURED and/or USED to CREATE PUBLIC SHOCK in which DATE-RAPE FORCED RADICAL PLUTOCRATIC/FASCIST AGENDAS are easily shoved down your shocked throat & up your shocked anus.

Get ready. Here comes another.

[NuttyFluffers]

153. oh for the love of gawd, you people need better communication skills!

first, hyperbole, it's a wonderful literary device. i could not have possibly been the only person to have understood that here. the entire universe of language is not from one tightly specific "factual" declarative sentence to another. dear lord, i'm half expecting someone to report the "crisis of teen pregnancy" here just to play GOTCHA! yes, we understand, there are exceptions, whatever, move on people...

second, just because there are real ramifications does not mean the supposed explanation is the "real one". for example, the rice crisis is NOW real. check. the supposed media inside story (aka. the OFFICIAL STORY to the masses) states a certain narrative. check. the real official agencies (aka. ivory tower scholasticism to be ignored) state that this narrative is misleading -- read: FALSE. their narrative blames another cause, wanton speculation in the open market with predictable protectionism and panic.

this new, more factually grounded narrative DOES NOT SAY THE CRISIS IS NOT REAL NOW. it just says the supposed previous narrative given before is false. further, these official agencies insinuate the supposed previous narrative is FANNING THE FLAMES OF PANIC NEEDLESSLY and should stop.

why? what agenda? duh, GREED, POWER, DOMINION. the same agenda for EVERY SINGLE ORGANIZED AND DISORGANIZED GENERATION OF ARTIFICIAL CRISES. organized generation of artificial crises is called conspiracy. disorganized generation of artificial crises is called opportunism setting off panic.

this is not hard people! it should not take 100+ posts to figure that you are talking at cross purposes!

throw into the fact that MEDIA IS CONTROLLED BY A MERE HANDFUL OF OWNERS (indisputable fact) aaaaand MEDIA IS CONTINUING TO FAN A DANGEROUSLY FALSE NARRATIVE and you suddenly have ' unrelated opportunism spurring panic' turn into A LEGITIMATE CONSPIRACY.

tah dah. you may cease and desist now. return to your regular programming and sleep well.

[Perry Logan]

154. This is the central conspiracy meme: everything is phoney--but only the conspiracy folks can see it.

[IronLionZion]

155. Anyone have figures for rice prices in different countries?

While there is not much global rice shortage, there sure as fuck is a rice shortage in the US of A and certain countries.

If the liberal government in India didn't restrict exports, their local prices would have become prohibitively expensive. Rice is a staple food there and if people can't afford the cheapest food there is, they will die. The US has more diversity in food choices.