We're in the Death Spiral.

[Pale Blue Dot]

Yesterday, the government released the latest jobless figures. The jobless rate is now 5.1%, and we've lost almost a quarter of a million jobs in 2008 alone.

NOBODY is talking about the implications of this, even on DU. This is a slow-motion disaster in the making because there are no jobs being created to replace the ones we are losing. There isn't even any mechanism for job creation currently in place. Our economy is the perfect storm. People are spending less due to lower wages and property values, higher prices, and job loss. Employers are dealing with the lower revenue by cutting jobs. IT'S A DEATH SPIRAL. Unlike in the 90's and the early part of this decade, there isn't even a "bubble" that we can ride to bail us out.

Our candidates, and many posters here, talk about a "green revolution" that will help to bail us out. This is a total pipe dream that completely ignores the way our corporate economy works. As things get tighter and tighter, companies are going to focus on getting the most bang for their buck. They are going to CUT more jobs and they are going to CUT green initiatives. If we had had a reasonable President and a congress willing to fight, the time to inact legislation on this was several years ago, when times were good. It's too late now. We're already in the death spiral.

Take a listen to those who say, even here, that everything's going to be fine. What evidence are they providing? How many of them give a variation of the argument "This is America, we'll figure it out', or "There are always economic naysayers"? How many of them will mention one market or commodity as evidence, or one good day on Wall Street, while ignoring the macroeconomic factors cited above?

It is well past time for our candidates, and our community, to begin an open, HONEST dialogue about what the future holds for us. We need to discuss, with relatively clear heads, what that data means and the painful measures that we are going to have to undertake. People need to get their heads out of the sand and deal with this. And that goes double for Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama.

Please keep this kicked.

[ixion]

1. a green revolution is a way out, and is possible, although

thanks to the corporate shills a.k.a. congress, there is nothing to encourage such a revolution.

I do think that we're discussing this on DU, although I do see a handful of those who claim everything will be fine.

I am not one of those people.

It IS time for an HONEST dialog. Hell, it's been time for that for decades. That's why I don't think we'll see any such thing. Honesty seems to be anathema to our government.

[jwirr]

5. The green revolution is definitely the way out. When we needed

change in 1930 it came from changing old ways into new. Today we have an old system based on oil that is very destructive both to nature as well as our own wellbeing. We can only revitalize our world by going back to sustainable living for all countries and basing it on principles of simplicity and shared responsibility.

I have a foster child in Tanzania - what I would like to see for him is a safe sustainable lifestyle that can be maintained where he lives. That is going to be hard but it is the only hope that he has in the coming chaos.

I think the same is true of the US. We need to get back to basics. I do not need most of what I have in my room (live with children) and I would not buy it new. But I would work in the garden helping to raise food locally for my own family with the surplus going to others. I am helping to raise chickens the old fashion way even though I could buy eggs and chicken in the store cheaper but this way I know what I have. I am helping to set up energy efficient homes as much as we can and there are many more green issues that will in the end provide both self generated items and things that I cannot get for myself but will require new US jobs to provide.

Instead of globalization we need localized sustainable living.

[mdmc]

67. Within the last two years my local paper has begun to run a weekly

article on localized sustainable living.

I think that it is the only thing that can bail us out.

Act locally.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. 5.1% is only the OFFICIAL unemployment rate

It does not count

1) Discouraged workers--those who have given up on finding a job, such as those who are in a town that has lost its main industry but are "too poor to leave."

2) People who are working part-time when they would rather work full-time

3) People who have been forced to take jobs at a fraction of what they used to earn

4) Recent high school or college graduates who have been unable to find a job

5) The incarcerated

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. Yes, and not including those catagories is just another way to not talk about the problem.

:grr:

[That Guy 888]

44. I think getting those categories counted needs to be done now while bush is still in office

...otherwise the media will be only to happy to blame the adjusted unemployment figures on the new Democratic President.

Dealing with the coming economic realities will be tough enough without having to fight right-wing nut fantasies too.

[Pharlo]

11. Dont' forget that other all important govt job statistic of 1person / 1 job.

Whenever the government puts out new job statistics, they ASSUME that 1 person = 1 job. Whereas, with many retail / service sector jobs, it SHOULD be 1 person = 2 or 3 jobs.

[Bonobo]

4. "Make work" jobs. By the million. Count on it. No other choice.

You are right. Something must be done. Your post ignores this very real likelihood.

[Robb]

8. Probably right

...some poster here said (ages ago) the next president needs to be another FDR, not another Kennedy. I forget which candidate s/he was bashing at the time. :)

But true enough. Hopefully with a vision to get something useful out of the busy work.

[Pale Blue Dot]

9. With what money?

I know that was FDR's plan after the depression, but we weren't trillions of dollars in debt at the time; we had the money to spend on such initiatives. I think it is extremely unrealistic to expect that we could pay for this now.

Another important thing to consider about debt: the credit crisis is causing major ripples in state and local governments. One more blow to that industry and those governments could instantly lose their ability to borrow to raise money for initiatives of their own.

I know you mean well, but you're kind of proving my point: very, very few are really admitting the extent of the problem. We need to start being honest with ourselves.

[Bonobo]

10. With what money do we do anything? With what money are we in Iraq?

I must admit my ignorance of economics, but I have never understood this.

We can go to war on credit, hire mercenaries on credit, build bombs on credit, bribe nations on credit, but we cannot:

-Give ourselves health insurance (on credit)
-Fund our schools at 1/1000th of the cost of a year in Ira (on credit)
-Refund Social Security (on credit)

Why? Like I said, I am not an economist. Explain it to me, please.

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. You, like all Americans, seem to believe it can go on forever.

It can't. A few years ago, we might have been able to deal with it. But thanks, in part, to the factors cited above and in part to American's belief that the money will never run out, I believe it's too late now.

Eventually, people stop lending you money. Or run out of money to lend you. Or demand you start paying them back so that they can fund their own "make jobs" programs.

[Bonobo]

13. I'm as worried as you, pal.

[Zynx]

28. Our debt to GDP levels are nowhere near the worst in the world.

Japan has far worse and can borrow freely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. When china goes, times up, pay

people will get it, not a second before

Why china does not need to physically go to war... with us

[notesdev]

29. We're running out of credit

Hard to pay for new things when it gets harder and harder to find the money to pay for it. Foreign investors would have to be crazy to pay for anything denominated in dollars now.

We've basically been running on an infinite-term, interest-only loan of gargantuan proportions. Plus, the gov't cooks the books six ways from Sunday; your average man on the street can tell you the unemployment and inflation numbers are a crock.

If you or I ran our finances the way the government does... the government would arrest us.

This is the end result of the business of Washington DC becoming a game to see who can stuff the most taxpayer dollars in their buddies' pockets.

[robinlynne]

75. The money is here in the country. But the distribution is more and more unequitable.

change the distribution methods. all of them. really. It will take putting some corrupt people in jail.

[XemaSab]

53. The pisser with "make work" jobs

is that the building trades (which a lot of these jobs would be) are already limping, and undercutting wages could hurt the already employed. Also, I think people would be less likely to want to relocate in this day and age for massive projects like dams.

[Shakespeare]

69. I agree with you partly; however, given the severe infrastructure problems nationwide...

...this could be a solution that helps on a number of levels. In addition to providing employment to those who need it, it'll (presumably, since it would be federal dollars) take a bit of pressure off of state budgets, and protect other funding areas like healthcare and education (who compete for funds with infrastructure maintenance projects).

A lot of us have been saying for YEARS here on DU that we are in desperate need of another "new deal." I think we need that now more than ever.

[frogcycle]

6. the only way that a "green revolution" can help

is if we launch a Manhattan Project or Apollo Program - like massive effort. Big federal spending with lots of corporations working toward a national goal. It would be like the CCC, WPA, etc.

This CAN turn the tide. The country as a "megacorporation" CAN regain a competitive advantage in the world marketplace, wherein we have the technology and capability to do stuff and make stuff that everyone else wants. it would not be driven just by people wanting cool, enviro-friendly stuff - it would be driven by the demand for alternatives to the oil/coal -based economies. It would require not just creating expensive elitist stuff, but legitimate means of capturing solar energy (whether direct, wind, water) and possibly tidal and geothermal MORE economically than releasing the sequestered solar energy via combustion.

This CAN be done, and a serious mega-research/engineering/manufacturing/deployment effort could vault someone into a dominate global economic position. It WILL be done eventually - if not soon, then a few decades out, or even a century. But without question, the world will run on something other than dead plants and animals a couple of hundred years from now.

HOWEVER, that would require pretty much dismantling the existing multinational corporations that would rather have those developments occur in their cheap-labor locations.

It would require pouring money into the program like we are now pouring it into the pockets of big oil and big MIC. It would most assuredly be deficit spending, just as were the New Deal programs that brought us TVA, national parks, roads, bridges, etc. If you look at the US as an entity attempting to compete in the marketplace, then that entity needs to develop a new product line, because the old one is not selling. And as you say, we are in a death spiral clinging to it.

It would require scrapping the "free trade" approach and going back to cutthroat competition. Tariffs!

Alternatively, we can let the global economy be the great equalizer, and continue to slip toward the day when the standards of living in India, China, and the US are equivalent.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Then who will buy the cheap labor made crap from these corprat bastards?

When we can no longer afford to purchase their crap because of no job or slave wages, won't their profits be greatly diminished, too? Guess these GREEDHEADS are not into long term thinking are they? :shrug:

[girl gone mad]

51. No, they don't think long term.

It's been that way for years now. Public corporations are run with the goal of getting share prices to rally through short term moves.

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Whadja mean "there are no jobs being created"?

Of course there are jobs for those who want to work and not just sit around and gripe and complain that there are no jobs. The Cheney/Bush job creation machine, aka The US Army, has lots of entry level positions open. :sarcasm:

[0007]

14. Bill Maher said it best last night on HBO. It was super great.

Wish I could regurgitate the whole segment.

[Pale Blue Dot]

15. I missed it. What did he say? nt

[Fovea]

16. The size repair the world needs

Probably requires the near complete destruction of the modern corporatist economy.
Green can be done, but it means an entirely different world.
Quite a bit of that difference will seem like pain.

It will probably mean a period of scarcity, in cases and places, severe scarcity.

[flashl]

18. The economy base is bubbles, financial alchemy, shadow banking, questionable govt economic stats,

stratas (mixed economies), coupled with corporate welfare gone amok and sold to the American people as 'their' economy.

In general, what's offered as an economy is not based on any proven model that benefits the majority. Therefore, any offering using sound governmental principles or models will not be effective.

[fasttense]

19. The US economy is just suffering the typical effects of Milton Friedman's

"free market" or neoliberal economic policies. This loss of wages and jobs happens every time some idiot leader, be he dictator or quasi-dictator, decides to implement the anti-labor, pro-monopoly policies theorized by Milton and the Chicago School boys.

Here's an excerpt on what happened to the Chilean economy thanks to Pinochet and Milton's boys.

"After a deep recession caused by applying Monetarist shock-treatment in 1975 (the economy fell by 13%), it started to rebound. This is the source of claim of a Chilean "economic miracle." Friedman, for example, used 1976 as his base-line, so excluding the depression year of 1975 which his recommended shock treatment had deepened. Ironically, soon after Friedman proclaimed his "miracle" the bottom fell out of the economy and Chile's GDP fell 14% in 1982."

"By 1988, the average real wage had returned to 1980 levels, but it was still well below 1970 levels. Moreover, in 1986, some 37 percent of the labor force worked in the informal sector, where wages were lower and benefits often non-existent. Many worked for minimum wage, which in 1988 provided only half of what an average family required to live decently -- and a fifth of the workers didn't even earn that . . . nearly half of Chileans lived in poverty."

"Between 1970 and 1990, Chile's total GDP grew by a decidedly average 2% a year. The average growth in GDP was 1.5% per year between 1974 and 1982, which was lower than the average Latin American growth rate of 4.3% and lower than the 4.5% of Chile in the 1960's. For the 1981-90 period, it was just 1.84% a year. Hardly an economic miracle."

"The "distribution of income in Chile in 1988, after a decade of free-market policies, was markedly regressive." Between 1978 and 1988 the richest 10% of Chileans increased their share of national income from 37 to 47%, while the next 30% saw their share shrink from 23 to 18%. The income share of the poorest fifth of the population dropped from 5 to 4 %. Overall, "wages stayed low even as the economy began to recover. Low wages were key to the celebrated 'miracle' recovery . . . The average wage . . . was 5 percent lower at the end of the decade than it had been in 1981 and almost 10 percent lower than the average 1970 wage." After 1982, "stagnant wages and the unequal distribution of income severely curtailed buying power for most Chileans, who would not recover 1970 consumption levels until 1989." (Note that Chile had another crash in 1982)

The site sucks but the info they provide is valuable.

http://www.anarkismo.net/index.php

[Pale Blue Dot]

20. Much of that info is covered in the book "The Shock Doctrine".

I highly recommend it if you haven't read it.

[fasttense]

21. Yes, I've read it but you can't get it on line.

So, I get the numbers from sites where I can post a link.

It was a great book.

[JCMach1]

23. Savor the irony... it may be predatory capitalism that makes the vast majority of the world equal

i.e. slaves to the corporations...

[notesdev]

35. It wasn't a free market

If you know how the Federal Reserve operates, then it is clear that there's nothing free about the market, it dances to the tune of that private (public only when it's advantageous to be so) organization's manipulations. Study the Depression - the Fed was the primary driver of that crisis, and it is the primary driver of this one.

There is a distinct difference between capitalism - which really is the most efficient method available of fairly distributing goods and services - and corporatism, which is how things have really been run.

So much of the economy has been driven by government subsidies being directed into the pocket of those who have powerful allies within that it's not really fair to label this system as capitalism. In our system, wealthy interests pay to alter the law to suit their desires; a true free market wants laws that are stable so that values and risks are reasonably predictable.

And it extends further into political policy. Bring in 20-40 million low-skill and unskilled workers, that's a political decision; the only way the market can react to that is to drive wages down to accommodate the surplus labor pool. Bring in hundreds of thousands of skilled workers, and the same thing is going to happen higher on the economic ladder. Opening up 'free' trade with countries with no labor protections, no environmental protections, and so on is a political decision with consequences that were apparent to many (remember Ross Perot?) well ahead of time.

All a free market does is balance supply and demand. When a free market is actually allowed to work, everyone does better.

Letting the blame fall on markets simply gives the politicians a free pass on the fallout of a long train of corrupt and selfish political decisions.

[LaurenG]

22. Kick nt

[lostnfound]

24. The rulers of the world consider "open, HONEST dialogue" with the masses to be foolhardy & dangerous

That's why the airwaves are filled with meaningless tripe. The American experiment with open democracy supported by open debate was under attack for about 100 years and finally was ended around 1980.

Okay, I'm feeling a little negative today. But less seriously, I do think that "open, HONEST dialogue" about the state of the economy would be considered a recipe for disaster by most of our rulers. Speaking about impending doom can create a run on the banks and drastic drop in remaining spending etc. -- a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[tularetom]

25. We have crumbling infrastructure and millions of idle workers

Doesn't seem like rocket science to come up with a plan. Except you cannot power this plan with a program of tax cuts and eternal wars.

So all that has to be done is:

1. stop the war in Iraq
2. restore tax brackets to those which existed in the 70's.
3. undertake a massive public works improvement and repair program similar to WPA.

and

4. re-impose tariffs on imported goods to even the playing field for American workers (even if the material is imported by american corporations).

[FatDave]

74. I agree with you almost entirely

But I would suggest adjusting the tax brackets to pre-1963 levels.

I like #4 too. I think a little economic protectionism is just what the doctor ordered. Set tariffs high enough that it's more economical to manufacture goods in the United States. Let China sell its crap elsewhere.

[Kip Humphrey]

26. If you are not living well within your means (like below 60% of intake), you'd better get there by

this fall!

[Zynx]

27. You explained a phenomenon that has happened about a thousand times around the world

in the last century. "This is a slow-motion disaster in the making because there are no jobs being created to replace the ones we are losing. There isn't even any mechanism for job creation currently in place. Our economy is the perfect storm. People are spending less due to lower wages and property values, higher prices, and job loss. Employers are dealing with the lower revenue by cutting jobs."

This is how every recession looks. The fact you have gotten 10 recs for this is embarassing.

[Pale Blue Dot]

30. So you're saying that there is nothing different about this recession?

The fundamentals of the economy are the same, or similar to, the last two recessions? I think the data says otherwise. And yes, I've been an adult through the last several recessions so I remember what they look like.

So, if you're optimistic, where will the jobs come from? How do we stop the spiral?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. I'm with Finnfan here: This recession feels different

Job losses are occurring with the same speed as during the Reagan recession of the early 1980s, but our underlying fundamentals are weaker. We have a larger deficit, a manufacturing base that's been siphoned off to other countries for nearly 30 years, and collapsing housing and credit markets.

I'm noticing how desperately sellers of non-essentials are cutting prices and spamming me both by mail and e-mail. Arts organizations are BEGGING me to subscribe and contribute.

The "Rust Belt" suffered a lot during the Reagan recession, but I feel that this country is going to be one big Rust Belt if current trends continue.

Until someone has the courage to say, "End the war NOW and redirect those resources to rebuilding our country," we're doomed.

[WinkyDink]

42. "around the world" are much lower standards of living. You want to live like an Indonesian?

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. The fundamentals of THIS recession are closer to 1929

than any other recession since oh 1929

By the way, the IMF agrees with me on this one. Last week they even said it. This is the worst crisis in the US since the Great Depression.

Been saying this for a couple of years, but to have the IMF issue a statement that sounded like something I wrote HERE on DU a year before
was eerie to say the least

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWatcher]

73. Read his posting history.

He ISN'T That stupid. He's educated, bright, and he has in the past, shown a right sharp ability to convey that he actually DOES know what he is talking about.

But as this crisis has continued to deepen, he's beginning to sound like one of the many financial pundits on Bubblevision that I KNOW FOR SURE are completely full of shit.

It's sad to lose respect for someone, but I don't care who you are, I'm not going to sit here and let someone tell me that a pile of Dogshit is actually a Dark Chocolate Godiva Easter Bunny.

[TheWatcher]

72. Good Lord.

You're not stupid, Zynx. In fact you are quite bright, quite educated.

But this is getting ridiculous. You should go peddle for CNBC.

This ISN'T a normal recession.

[Turbineguy]

31. On the bright side:

This only has 9 months left to run. 81 percent of Americans think the country is headed in the wrong direction. Democrats only need a 65 percent majority to win the election (I figure 10-13 percent to offset GOP election fraud and tampering).

[Pale Blue Dot]

32. I'm sorry, but I think that 9 months from now

is about 4 years too late.

[Turbineguy]

34. Making the change 4 years ago

would have been better. Having had an honest election in 2000 even more so. The republicans have had a go and they screwed it up. I do not think it's neccesary to convince the "19 percenters" by destroying the country. Many of them still will not be convinced anyway.

I find when it comes to Americans, linear thinking goes out the window. Drawing a line between two points does not mean the third point is inevitable.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of Americans.

[XemaSab]

54. You think that electing a democrat will magically make the economy better?

:shrug:

I think we're up shit creek, no matter who gets elected.

Granted, Obama might bring the paddle, but still... people are out of work, home values are collapsing, companies are outsorcing, downsizing, or bringing in cheap labor... our problems are not going to go away overnight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. I hate to say it but a democrat will be better for my pocket book BUT

you knew that was coming, given the huge disappointment of 2006 the democrats will save us any longer is magical thinking. It will be up to us

[Autumn Colors]

36. I did my little bit, wish it could be more

Since 2003, I've been self-employed. Luckily, my business grew to the point where I could not humanly do all of the work myself anymore. In 2007, I created 2 full-time jobs and 1 part-time job.

I work in medical transcription and most of our industry is being outsourced by large companies to Indian med. students. I've cut expenses everywhere except wages and have cut my profit margin to make sure my 2 full-timers always make at least the minimum they told me they need to get by (but usually more than that). (My part-timer has a full-time government job but is doing this until I have enough work for her to do this full-time.)

Pay is production-based, as it is throughout this industry. It's a struggle, but I'm hearing more and more from physicians who tried the Indian companies only to get fed up with the bad quality. Unfortunately, it looks like it will be technology that will make us dinosaurs, not the Indians, but we're hanging in there.

Anyhow, it's one tiny thing I can feel good about in an ocean of daily bad news.

[Pale Blue Dot]

37. I wish you the best of continued luck.

I think one of the reasons that we're in this death spiral is that the sytems has been gamed so that stories like yours are the exception rather than the rule.

[notesdev]

39. One thing in our favor

is that Americans are still 15% more productive than our closest competitor. As the dollar drops, the cost-effectiveness of shipping jobs offshore and bringing in foreign labor also drops in proportion. As the US becomes relatively more competitive on price, our advantage in productivity and quality just might be the thing that gets the ball rolling again.

The weakness of US economic culture is not in the production end; it's in the gluttonous overconsumption of the US consumer. That's a behavior that this depression will weed out, and fast. People who can't stop spending will soon find that they have no money left to buy what they need to survive.

[quadriga]

38. A major restructuring and revamping of the infrastructure is needed.

This could be done in a manner that others are calling a "green revolution". The country's infrastructure is crap. I'll probably get flamed for saying this but, this restructuring should be done by U.S. citizens not illegals or contractors.

[Turn CO Blue]

40. Close to home here: 4 airlines shut down in the last week.

The small and medium-sized (low-cost) airlines are certainly in a death spiral due to the cost of fuel, too much capacity and low fares. Fares are still very low and haven't kept up with the cost of fuel burn it takes to carry an average 175 pound person across many miles, much less to afford decent wages and contracts and the leases on all their planes.

Champion Air, Aloha, ATA and now Skybus...

All those employees' stock value and their careers just gone POOF! in a matter of weeks (particularly Aloha and ATA) - and in one case a matter of hours. Some employees I knew of at ATA with 20+ years invested and they're now wiped out! And all those passengers? They're only going to get assistance from the other airlines for a couple of weeks - and then their tickets are worthless. The other carriers certainly can't take all those people for free - everybody is already hemorrhaging a million dollars a day or more.

What about the UNCHECKED GREED of big oil and the refineries and effing OPEC - and the war profiteering, small-minded Republicans who didn't plan for $100 oil! Or did plan for it - maybe that's what they wanted, but were so fucking stupid they didn't understand that it would push many industries and hence all commerce to the point of shutting down. And BushCo who continues to enable and empower and enrich themselves personally off this unprecedented run of profits. How do those ninny heads think that merchandise, commodity and food get carried around in this country anyway - trucking (fuel-based) and rail and airlines (fuel-based).

No wonder prices are so fucking HIGH! Good god - we're not gonna have tomatoes for awhile I can tell you! Some of the truckers at my husband's last job were being paid $1700 per day to make a run - and it was costing them $1500 in fuel, so they weren't clearing anything after maintenance and insurance. What a crock!


I joined the travel industry so that I could travel to see my family but also to see the world. I am so grateful for the opportunities I've had to go to Spain, Portugal, Germany, Mexico and London. And I've travelled to over 30 cities in the US.

I am so anxious and frankly, sad. I've poured my heart and passion into this little airline as we've grown from only 19 planes to 60.

Time to find some means of support - hopefully one that heals the earth this time.

[WinkyDink]

41. What was that Nader said about the Gore-Bush equivalence? And he dares show his face.

Where I am, Bethlehem Steel is being transmogrified into a Sands Casino. Not much to produce and export there.

[FirstLight]

43. Kick & Rec

I have seen it coming for a long time too, and unfortunately, I am a "doom&gloom-er" thinking that things are going to get ALOT worse before better... and maybe not even in my lifetime. ...wilderness Survival anyone?

I have gone from a 40 hour week job to working 2-3 part time jobs and freelancing on the eves & weekends - and I STILL cannot put FOOD on the table for my kids!!! (single mom of 3, can't make more than $10 an hour...) My daughter has a disability that keeps me hopping between 3 different specialists, two of which are over 100 miles away from home..which takes away from my work-time. I myself am dealing with long term effects of spousal abuse and related health issues, so I am losing hours there too. I don't count as "unemployed" but I sure as hell am UNDER employed...

My only recourse is to be resourceful: grow my own food, help from church and family, and work my ASS off when I can.

What really chaps my hide is the Media and pundits are still saying..."are we in a recession?" DUH!
I guess when the depression really gets underway, they may wake up. When we have hundreds of thousands of people starving because they can't buy bread or other stapels, maybe then they'll wake up... or when the food-riots start and the country declares martial law, will the wake up call finally come for us all?

sorry - feeling a bit dark & bleak today as well...

[Hydra]

55. People like you and I are invisible

I am also underemployed and taking care of a disabled relative. I've tried for years to get a job that pays what I'm qualified for and what we need, but I wind up having to spend time fighting with the state for the meager benefits they offer...and then am told that I'm double dipping by reading the fine print and trying to get the amount we should be allotted. That's almost another full time job in itself, but at least the taxman doesn't get to take a chunk when I manage to get us another 10 or 20 dollars, the way working does.

You ask how they can be playing with the word "recession"...the fact is, unless it affects them, most people would prefer to live in the delusion that everything is perfect here in America.

I look forward to the day when reality bites them all in the ass. Hard.

[PATRICK]

45. The Doomsday List

Still have nukes enough, Cheney has enough power to still mix it with Iran, the richest are still the richest and still in power, the obscene joke of a world "news" service still pumps swill as do growing numbers of factories which import things we could easily produce here while burning the last dregs of the energy lifeline that is warming the planet into evolution ending climate shock.

On the the 'world" front, the pleasant fiction created by humans for humans, the bulge of aging people on the planet will collide with an unsustainable social network looted by the worst of humans, plagues created by good and bad intentions, famines from bio-engineered or rather Enronized seed and food supply and water systems, diseases from drugs nearly planned to make resistant strains and cause fatal side effects(while leaking universally into the industrial polluted food chain. The coincidental modern plasticity of DNA making all life forms malleable vulnerable and wildly mutating overall because of lack of intelligence and the rule of greed. The utter waste of technology and finite energy interesting balanced by actually suicidal applications and the rare necessary forms needed(hopefully like the Biblical mustard seed) to someday rebuild a future of some sort.

And war, brave war that added and kin to plague, starvation, and yes more chaotic overpopulation and loss of environment and energy and on and on, finds this crisis doomed generation overladen with loons, guns, absolute sh&t for brains leadership that is anything but. War will insure all crises have momentarily engaging death agonies to vent fear and frustration and need.

Take a breath, open a window to your chemical laden air and get to work. These are the "interesting times" that JFK considered a curse. You can effectively become the poisons, the brainless virus, the roadkill, or a human being by the wealth of choices forced upon us.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Tell this Michigander about it.

Our state started our death spiral a couple of years ago. No one in power gave a crap. Our state is losing population at a fast rate, even faster than we're losing jobs. Our food banks are hurting, our shelters can't take in even half of the homeless on any given night, and we're dying up here. We have yet to have a solution work at all.

[dawgman]

49. Death spiral

maybe not but definitely in the downward turn of things. There will be changes. Wholesale changes. People will not be sheeple when the can't afford bread or the gas to get to work. At some point they will wake up and when they do true change will come.

[Elspeth]

50. Add to that death spiral the rejection of Keyensian economics and the

"drowning of government in a bathtub" which means that even the government cannot step in in a large enough way to help. We are now at the mercy of the Fed which is a private bank.

We are all Nibelungen now.

[XemaSab]

52. This is a slight tangent, but I was SHOCKED I TELL YA

how many houses there are on Realtor.com for sale below 100K in the Sacramento area. There's 300+, and yeah, some of them are falling down shacks, but a lot of them look like decent houses that have been foreclosed on and that banks are just DUMPING.

A normal 2-bedroom house in that area should be like, $300,000+, and not like, $70,000.

It's good news if you're a low-income buyer, but it's a TRAIN WRECK if you're a middle-income seller who's trying to sell a house for 300K.

[TwixVoy]

56. I work retail

And I can tell you we are seeing a HUGE slow down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. I produce a luxury product Role Playing Games, DITO

I first noticed it about nine months ago

[TwixVoy]

59. It is scary

I am a mid-level manager at my store and I check the numbers everyday. I am talking HUGE drop for the same days last year. Over 30% drop.

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. My husband is a Used Car manager and so far the store is selling

at the same pace as this time last year. New car department is doing about the same also. So far. *knock on wood*

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. When we did taxes, it was fifty percent

and in the industry (this is luxury remember that) my numbers are the norm.

I might just give up... on this, or just keep plugging and hope for the better in two to five years time

[Pale Blue Dot]

60. I can't send you a PM yet, but I'm curious to know where you work.

I was a retail manager for Staples for about 7 years before I left 9 months ago to become a teacher. Best move I ever made.

[TwixVoy]

61. Well

Well I won't post the exact name of my employer on a public forum for obvious reasons, but I will say it is one of the top 3 largest retailers in the country.

[TwixVoy]

63. Also

Also I can view sales for every store in the company. The company as a whole just the other day finally hit negative territory for sales for the same time last year.

I honestly believe the advisors at corporate think something BIG is going to be going on, because there have been MASSIVE changes (I have worked here for years and have never seen so many changes at once) designed to cut costs. I am talking save every penny kind of costs. I am talking emails to all stores saying using less fluroscent light bulbs. "Pull some of them out you don't need all the bulbs in every fixture". And those thing hardly use any energy. Massive cuts in management at all levels in stores have just been made recently. The company is buying less product as a whole. I am having a hard time keeping shelves full just because the DC is only sending us 3 of items we would normally have 50 of... and they won't send more until we sell the few things they send us.

There have been trucks cancelled recently. Why? Because we are selling so little that the truck has so few items in it is isn't even worth sending to us. Lots of other things going on too.

[roamer65]

64. It's what's called an "inflationary depression".

No jobs and a worthless currency to boot. Hard times are coming, folks.

[TwixVoy]

65. I think the term is stagflation?

?

[roamer65]

71. Think more like Germany, 1923.

Inflation got so bad that prices doubled every few hours. But if inflation stay around 20-30%, you're right on calling stagflation.

[alarimer]

68. How about a new CCC?

One that focuses on green initiatives and sustainable development. You could put hundreds of thousands to work in New Orleans, for example. This government won't do it because it will not benefit their cronies. Instead of paying illegal immigrants on the cheap, they could hire the displaced people from there. Put Al Gore in charge.

[Delphinus]

70. Bumping ...

I must head off to bed, but I want to read this, so kicking for tomorrow's reading.

[DemReadingDU]

76. morning kick

[Mnemosyne]

77. Needs a

:kick:

Sorry too late to rec, Finn! :hi:

[TZ]

78. I have a coworker who

has been saying essentially the same thing about my industry (biotech) as well because of the growing trend of outsourcing work to India and China..I don't think experienced techs like me have anything to worry about yet..but it is worrysome...:-(

[taught_me_patience]

80. The economy is troubling

but by no means in a death spiral. There is NO need to get so dramatic about the economy. Losing 250k jobs is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the entire labor force. We've had many recessions before and have always come out of it ok (except for the great depression). This recession will be relatively mild and short lived.

[Pale Blue Dot]

81. I believe that if you re-read my OP,

you'll see that you proved my point.

[Skittles]

82. too busy bashing Hillary here to do anything

FUCKING DISGUSTING