Autism, vaccines, recovery from autism, lies of the media

[truedelphi]

Among the many parents who suffered through vaccination leaving their child autistic are Jenny McCarthy And Jim Carrey.

They now believe that the wise, health-oriented treatments they have undertaken have helped their son Even recover.

So why are they so upset with the American medical model??

by Jenny McCarthy
Recently, England and Ireland reported that autism is affecting one in 58 individuals.

Is it any wonder that autism has become many new parents' No. 1 fear?

We've met some of the most amazing moms and dads who are forging their own path to prevention and recovery. When our son, Evan, was diagnosed with autism we were lucky enough to benefit from their knowledge and experience. Evan has been healed to a great extent by many breakthroughs that, while perhaps not scientifically proven, have definitely helped Evan and many other children who are recovering from autism.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/02/mccarthy.autsimtreatment/index.html

PLEASE NOTE: WHILE CNN was blaring THE FACT that there is no longer any thimeresol in vaccines, those of us in the know realize that the recommended yearly flu shots can still contain it. And those shots are recommended for Children.

[Warpy]

1. Oh, for cripes sake.

http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/autism.html

This has been done to death but it refuses to die.

Any vaccine phobic parents need to know that flu vaccine without thimerosal preservative is available for a small surcharge. Or they can let the kid get the flu and build a natural, lifelong immunity to that strain.

Other diseases are dangerous. Vaccines are wonderful.

[progressoid]

11. Heh heh heh

I think I saw your eyes do a complete 360! :eyes:

[Johonny]

19. I agree

There is not evidence offered for the very first sentence...

[AikidoSoul]

228. We have a pandemic of children with brain disorders. 1 in 6 are so afflicted

Something is very wrong with people who willfully continue to ignore the hard fact that we have a very serious problem with more and more damage occurring to children's brains every year. The numbers are growing rapidly.

All neurotoxins including metals, pesticides, solvents, some drugs, fluoride, and other substances are suspect.

Sometimes I think DU is infested with chem/pharm hacks because of the ad hominem attacks that seem to pop up immediately when posts appear discussing the pandemic of children's brain injury now being seen.

Anybody ignorning these problems and refusing to investigate, are willfully blindfolding themselves.

Don't try to blindfold the rest of us.

We are exposing children to too many neurotoxins -- mercury is definitely classified as a potent neurotoxin. Many children's bodies and developing brains cannot handle multiple exposures --and some children have fewer detoxification enzymes, or are deficient.

The Harvard School of Public Health announced in 2006 that are seeing a "pandemic" of brain problems in children. 1 in 6 children now have developmental disabilities. Think about that for a minute. 1 in 6 children now have learning disabilities!!

The press release is as follows:


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press11072006.html


A Silent Pandemic: Industrial Chemicals Are Impairing the Brain Development of Children Worldwide

For immediate release: Tuesday, November 07, 2006

Boston, MA – Fetal and early childhood exposures to industrial chemicals in the environment can damage the developing brain and can lead to neurodevelopmental disorders (NDDs)—autism, attention deficit disorder (ADHD), and mental retardation. Still, there has been insufficient research done to identify the individual chemicals that can cause injury to the developing brains of children.

In a new review study, published online in The Lancet on November 8, 2006, and in an upcoming print issue of The Lancet, researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health and the Mount Sinai School of Medicine systematically examined publicly available data on chemical toxicity in order to identify the industrial chemicals that are the most likely to damage the developing brain.

The researchers found that 202 industrial chemicals have the capacity to damage the human brain, and they conclude that chemical pollution may have harmed the brains of millions of children worldwide. The authors conclude further that the toxic effects of industrial chemicals on children have generally been overlooked.

To protect children against industrial chemicals that can injure the developing brain, the researchers urge a precautionary approach for chemical testing and control. Such an approach is beginning to be applied in the European Union. It puts in place strong regulations, which could later be relaxed, if the hazard were less than anticipated, instead of current regulations that require a high level of proof. At present in the U.S., requirements for toxicity testing of chemicals are minimal.

“The human brain is a precious and vulnerable organ. And because optimal brain function depends on the integrity of the organ, even limited damage may have serious consequences,” says Philippe Grandjean , adjunct professor at Harvard School of Public Health and the study’s lead author.

One out of every six children has a developmental disability, usually involving the nervous system. Treating NDDs is difficult and costly to both families and society. In recent decades, a gathering amount of evidence has linked industrial chemicals to NDDs. Lead, for example, was the first chemical identified as having toxic effects to early brain development, though its neurotoxicity to adults had been known for centuries.

A developing brain is much more susceptible to the toxic effects of chemicals than an adult brain. During development, the brain undergoes a highly complex series of processes at different stages. An interference—for example, from toxic substances—that disrupts those processes, can have permanent consequences. That vulnerability lasts from fetal development through infancy and childhood to adolescence. Research has shown that environmental toxicants, such as lead or mercury, at low levels of exposure can have subclinical effects—not clinically visible, but still important adverse effects, such as decreases in intelligence or changes in behavior.

Grandjean and co-author Philip J. Landrigan, Professor at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, compiled a list of 202 environmental chemicals known to be toxic to the human brain using the Hazardous Substances Data Bank of the National Library of Medicine and other data sources. (The authors note that the list should not be regarded as comprehensive; for example, the number of chemicals that can cause neurotoxicity in laboratory animal tests exceeds 1,000.)

The authors then examined the published literature on the only five substances on the list—lead, methylmercury, arsenic, PCBs and toluene—that had sufficient documentation of toxicity to the developing human brain in order to analyze how that toxicity had been first recognized and how it led to control of exposure. They found a similar pattern in how the risks of each substance were documented: first, a recognition of adult toxicity and episodes of poisoning among children, followed by a growing body of epidemiological evidence that exposure to lower levels of the substances caused neurobehavioral deficits in children.

“Even if substantial documentation on their toxicity is available, most chemicals are not regulated to protect the developing brain,” says Grandjean. “Only a few substances, such as lead and mercury, are controlled with the purpose of protecting children. The 200 other chemicals that are known to be toxic to the human brain are not regulated to prevent adverse effects on the fetus or a small child.”

Grandjean and Landrigan conclude that industrial chemicals are responsible for what they call a silent pandemic that has caused impaired brain development in millions of children worldwide. It is silent because the subclinical effects of individual toxic chemicals are not apparent in available health statistics. To point out the subclinical risk to large populations, the authors note that virtually all children born in industrialized countries between 1960 and 1980 were exposed to lead from petrol, which may have reduced IQ scores above 130 (considered superior intelligence) by more than half and increased the number of scores less than 70. Today, it’s estimated that the economic costs of lead poisoning in U.S. children are $43 billion annually; for methylmercury toxicity, $8.7 billion each year.

“Other harmful consequences from lead exposure include shortened attention spans, slowed motor coordination and heightened aggressiveness, which can lead to problems in school and diminished economic productivity as an adult. And the consequences of childhood neurotoxicant exposure later in life may include increased risk of Parkinson’s disease and other neurogenerative diseases,” says Landrigan.

The researchers believe that the total impact of the pandemic is much greater than currently recognized. In supplementary documentation (see below for a link), about half of the 202 chemicals known to be toxic to the brain are among the chemicals most commonly used.

Testing chemicals for toxicity is a highly efficient public health measure. However, less than half of the thousands of chemicals currently used in commerce have been tested to assess acute toxicity and, although new chemicals undergo more thorough testing, access to the data may be restricted because companies fear exposing proprietary information. Also, current toxicity testing rarely includes neurobehavioral functions.

“The brains of our children are our most precious economic resource, and we haven’t recognized how vulnerable they are,” says Grandjean. “We must make protection of the young brain a paramount goal of public health protection. You have only one chance to develop a brain.”

To view supplementary documentation on industrial chemicals and risks of toxic effects on brain development, click here:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/neurotoxicant/appendix.doc

Support for this research was provided by the Danish Medical Research Council, the (U.S.) National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

("Developmental Neurotoxicity of Industrial Chemicals," The Lancet, November 8, 2006- Vol. 368)

See the latest news from the Harvard School of Public Health .

For more information, contact:
Todd Datz
[email protected]
617-432-3952

[sam sarrha]

291. i am really tired of mindless self righteous arrogance assholes like the first 3 to reply, i am

autistic, my life has been a living hell.. I'd like to slap those 3 ignorant bitches.

there is something causing it... dont fall for it being genetic.. the only possible genetic link is the Resistance to the causing agent.

i am really praying that the Karma the first 3 posters suffer for their statements is that they not only have to suffer all the agonies and fears of every autistic person that is ever born, one at a time, but all the suffering of all the parents RELATIVES AND SIBLINGS, OVER AND OVER AND OVER..FOR EVER AND KNOW IT IS FOR EVER :nopity:
I AM SO SICK OF THAT SHIT

[kimmerspixelated]

341. RIGHT ON RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for posting this! I agree something is wrong with folks that knowingly subject their kids to KNOWN NEUROTOXINS!!! But I was ignorant too b4 I wised up-but b4 then, I didn't throw stones at others for their choices. We need to quit demonizing parents who make informed choices! I will be signing a form next week to exempt my 11 year old from the vaccines THEY say she must have b4 sixth grade! Thankful we still have the right! Don't let the MAD scientists wannabees pis in your cornflakes! Thanks Again!

[mzmolly]

29. The flu kills more children than all other "diseases" we vax against combined

according to the CDC.

[varkam]

46. Yeah, we tend not to see certain fatal childhood illnesses anymore because we vaccinate against them

Well, unless you live in SF, or in Nigeria where 160 kids have died recently from measles.

[mzmolly]

51. Sorry Varkam, I've gone back decades and looked at the stats.

Don't be fooled by the international statistics the CDC loves to pull in when they're selling us a vaccine.

[varkam]

53. Do those fingers feel good in your ears?

Just askin'.

[mzmolly]

57. You'd have to look in the mirror

when you pose that question. ;)

[varkam]

58. Well I'm rubber and you're glue.

:eyes:

I was referencing the recent report in the health lounge (which I've noticed you haven't weighed in on) that anti-vax forces have effectively murdered 165 kids in northern Nigeria by way of measles - not CDC stats.

[mzmolly]

61. I haven't checked into the health forum as of late.

I'm not one to remain mum on these things as you know. I shall check it out in the am.

[AikidoSoul]

231. But we see a tremendous increase in brain illnesses

It's not a good trade off buddy

[varkam]

282. No we don't.

What do you mean by "brain illnesses"? Are you talking NDDs or ASD? In either case, the science does not support your statement.

[AikidoSoul]

232. Trading those diseases and replacing them with brain diseases

is not my idea of progress.

And then there's this abstract -- a prelude to a paper blaming environmental toxins for its role in triggering mitochondrial dysfunction which plays a huge role in autism:

"Exposure to environmental toxins is the likely etiology for MtD in autism. This dysfunction then contributes to a number of diagnostic symptoms and comorbidities observed in autism including: cognitive impairment, language deficits, abnormal energy metabolism, chronic gastrointestinal problems, abnormalities in
fatty acid oxidation, and increased oxidative stress."

This abstract is free:

American Journal of Biochemistry and Biotechnology 4 (2): 208-217, 2008
ISSN 1553-3468
© 2008 Science Publications
Corresponding Author: Daniel A. Rossignol, International Child Development Resource Center, 3800 W. Eau Gallie Blvd.,

Suite 105, Melbourne, FL 32934, Tel: [phone]

Evidence of Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Autism and Implications for Treatment
Daniel A. Rossignol, J. Jeffrey Bradstreet
International Child Development Resource Center, 3800 W. Eau Gallie Blvd., Suite 105,
Melbourne, FL 32934
Abstract: Classical mitochondrial diseases occur in a subset of individuals with autism and are usually
caused by genetic anomalies or mitochondrial respiratory pathway deficits. However, in many cases
of autism, there is evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction (MtD) without the classic features associated
with mitochondrial disease. MtD appears to be more common in autism and presents with less severe
signs and symptoms. It is not associated with discernable mitochondrial pathology in muscle biopsy
specimens despite objective evidence of lowered mitochondrial functioning. Exposure to environmental
toxins is the likely etiology for MtD in autism. This dysfunction then contributes to a number
of diagnostic symptoms and comorbidities observed in autism including: cognitive impairment,
language deficits, abnormal energy metabolism, chronic gastrointestinal problems, abnormalities in
fatty acid oxidation, and increased oxidative stress. MtD and oxidative stress may also explain the
high male to female ratio found in autism due to increased male vulnerability to these dysfunctions.
Biomarkers for mitochondrial dysfunction have been identified, but seem widely under-utilized despite
available therapeutic interventions. Nutritional supplementation to decrease oxidative stress along
with factors to improve reduced glutathione, as well as hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) represent
supported and rationale approaches. The underlying pathophysiology and autistic symptoms of
affected individuals would be expected to either improve or cease worsening once effective treatment
for MtD is implemented.

Keywords: mitochondria, inflammation, oxidative stress, antioxidants, hyperbaric oxygen therapy,
lactate, ammonia, Co-Enzyme Q10

SNIP

[varkam]

283. As far as I am aware...

such mitochondrial issues are only present in a small minority of autism cases - though I would be interested in reading the entire paper. Primarily I am interested in what evidence supports the conclusion that a mitochondrial disorder can have an environmental etiology.

[AikidoSoul]

234. And if you live in the U.S. your kid has a much better chance of getting autism

compared to other countries.

Are you going to read this or not?

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press11072006.html

[lizerdbits]

240. I don't see vaccines mentioned there

Remember that thimerosal is ethyl mercury and they mention methyl mercury. In addition, it's the amount we're exposed to. We are all exposed to arsenic, mercury, lead, etc that naturally occur in the environment. Most people aren't exposed to amounts high enough to cause physical problems.

Prenatal and childhood exposure to industrial chemicals we're tossing in the environment may very well be an issue. Maybe better environmental monitoring will give a clearer picture of what's going on as well as more research into how these chemicals alone and in combination affect development in lab animals.

[AikidoSoul]

255. Mercury is a neurotoxin. Ethylmercury is a neurotoxin. So is aluminum

Ethylmercury is less toxic than methylmercury, but it is still is a potent poison to the brain and central nervous sytem. Don't minimize that.

Also, ethylmercury distributes itself in the body the same way that methylmercury stores in the body. This means that while some of it is excreted, some of it can store deep withing the cells, including inside the brain."

That is one of the reasons why mercury detox is so tricky -- because it pulls accumulated stored mercury from the cells, dumping it into the blood stream where it can kill you if it is not managed with extreme care.

There are very few specialists in the U.S. that have a clue how to do mercury detox properly.

The quote below this excerpt is found here:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:D-j3twfwKG8J:www.nationalautismassociation.org/pdf/sucklingrat.pdf+%22ETHYL+MERCURY+METABOL%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=17&gl=us

"........The metabolite ofthiomersal is ethylmercury and its absorption, distributionand excretion is similar to methylmercury. The similarityof metabolic pathways and actions are due to similarreactions as organic molecules. Both substances increaseoxidative stress and are neurotoxic (Ueha-Ishibashi et al.,2004; ATSDR, 1999). Ethylmercury is, however, lesstoxic than methylmercury due to the lower clearancehalf-time and the lower possibility to pass the blood–brain barrier (Magos, 2003) than methylmercury. Due tounknown toxicity from low-dose exposures to ethyl-mercury, there has been concern that this exposure tomercury may be of some detriment to young children. Autistic spectrum disorders and neurodevelopmentaldisorders have been a controversial topic since 1999"

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

" Description/Abstract: Aluminum is a neurotoxin capable of altering membrane structure and function.^We investigated whether aluminum also can affect saturable transport across membranes using the blood-brain barrier as our model.^Mice were given i.p. or i.v. aluminum (up to 100 mg/kg) as the chloride salt and the disappearance from the brain of several centrally administered substances was measured.^We found that aluminum rapidly and profoundly inhibited the saturable system that transports the small, N-tyrosinated peptides Tyr-MIF-1 and the enkephalins from the brain to the blood by acting as a noncompetitive inhibitor.^In contrast, the disappearance from the brain of technetium pertechnetate (a substance also transported out of the brain by a different saturable system), albumin or D-Tyr-MIF-1 (a stereoisomer of Tyr-MIF-1 that was confirmed not to be transported by the carrier system) was not affected by aluminum.^Aluminum also did not alter either the saturable or nonsaturable component of the uptake of Tyr-MIF-1 by erythrocytes. These findings suggest that one mechanism by which aluminum may induce neurotoxicity is by selective alteration of the transport systems of the blood-brain barrier."

[lizerdbits]

Just about anything will be toxic in a high enough dose

There's an LD50 for glucose for crying out loud. The amount a child would be exposed to if most vaccines still contained thimerosal was pretty small.

Your link to me to a google search of "cache <img src="

[varkam]

284. Yes. We're talking micrograms, here.

Not exactly a heaping helping.

[sam sarrha]

332. its different in a developing brain, naysayer, the toxins are "Incorporated" into the neurological

structures.. after the brain is developed the neurtoxins can be passed thru the kidneys.. depending on the toxin and the dose, the body mass

i am surprised at your insensitivity and ignorance... well, actually i am not. ignorance is QUITE THE FASHION AROUND HERE LATELY

[sam sarrha]

293. tons of Uranium/mercury.. are dumped by the coal fire power plants.>>Link>>

the 1000 tons of uranium we dumped using it as a Weapon of mass Distruction in iraq using Depledted Uranium weapons, is causing about 16% of births there to be with "Extreme Birth Defects" google that, but beware of graphic photos

it is obvious Uranium is a neurotoxin because of all the babys born without brains in iraq because of DU WMD, it isnt the radioactivity of Uranium but its heavy metal toxisity

an articke about heavy metal polution from coal by alex gabbard
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

by alex gabbard
"Because existing coal-fired power plants vary in size and electrical output, to calculate the annual coal consumption of these facilities, assume that the typical plant has an electrical output of 1000 megawatts. Existing coal-fired plants of this capacity annually burn about 4 million tons of coal each year. Further, considering that in 1982 about 616 million short tons (2000 pounds per ton) of coal was burned in the United States (from 833 million short tons mined, or 74%), the number of typical coal-fired plants necessary to consume this quantity of coal is 154.

Using these data, the releases of radioactive materials per typical plant can be calculated for any year. For the year 1982, assuming coal contains uranium and thorium concentrations of 1.3 ppm and 3.2 ppm, respectively, each typical plant released 5.2 tons of uranium (containing 74 pounds of uranium-235) and 12.8 tons of thorium that year. Total U.S. releases in 1982 (from 154 typical plants) amounted to 801 tons of uranium (containing 11,371 pounds of uranium-235) and 1971 tons of thorium. These figures account for only 74% of releases from combustion of coal from all sources. Releases in 1982 from worldwide combustion of 2800 million tons of coal totaled 3640 tons of uranium (containing 51,700 pounds of uranium-235) and 8960 tons of thorium.

Based on the predicted combustion of 2516 million tons of coal in the United States and 12,580 million tons worldwide during the year 2040, cumulative releases for the 100 years of coal combustion following 1937 are predicted to be:

U.S. release (from combustion of 111,716 million tons):
Uranium: 145,230 tons (containing 1031 tons of uranium-235)

Thorium: 357,491 tons

Worldwide release (from combustion of 637,409 million tons):

Uranium: 828,632 tons (containing 5883 tons of uranium-235)

Thorium: 2,039,709 tons

Radioactivity from Coal Combustion
The main sources of radiation released from coal combustion include not only uranium and thorium but also daughter products produced by the decay of these isotopes, such as radium, radon, polonium, bismuth, and lead. Although not a decay product, naturally occurring radioactive potassium-40 is also a significant contributor."

more
http://www.yarchive.net/nuke/coal_radiation.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mountain+topping+coal&btnG=Google+Search

we should be looking at the plastics chemicals accumulating in children too

[ovidsen]

278. On the contrary

I believe that if you live in a developing nation (China immediately comes to mind), the chances of your child suffering brain damage from exposure to toxins is far greater, simply because they have rivers that are little more than open trenches saturated with heaven knows how many toxic chemicals. Like the lead that didn't make it onto the toys exported to the US. The fact is that the US has a much better system of reporting pollution and it's health effects than, say, China.

There's also the strong evidence that the diagnostic boundaries of diseases linked to environmental factors have increased exponentially in recent decades. What MDs used to dismiss as an "exuberant" child with an "active" imagination is now diagnosed with autism or ADD, and force fed dubious drugs to counteract these "symptoms".

I'm not saying that autism and ADD don't exist. I'm not saying the rates of these diseases have not increased. I'm just saying that the whole damn playing field has been changed in the past half century. 60 years ago, you couldn't see across the street in Pittsburgh because the pollution from the steel mills (long since closed) was so pervasive. You can't tell me that kids then suffered much less from the effects of these poisons than kids do now. It's just that today, we have a better grasp of the problem, and a better understanding of the cause and effects involving pollution and the development of young minds and bodies.

Comparing the diagnostic rates of certain childhood diseases linked to manmade toxins then with the rate today is comparing apples and oranges. We were really dumb and stupid in the post WW2 industrial boom. We're smarter now. It's important that we, as citizens and parents stop tilting at windmills like possible toxins in vaccines and look into the real growth of these diseases; their discovery; the discovery of the industrial byproducts that may cause them, and the evolution of how they are diagnosed: so we can curb the poisons that cause them and raise healthier generations.

This is not a simple question, and it has no simple answers.

[AikidoSoul]

307. Autism has increased dramatically

and anyone who disputes that is blind. This is NOT a matter of better diagnosis for God's sake. Any pediatrician or teacher who has been working for thirty years will swear to a huge increase.

And there are also 80,000 plus man made chemicals on the market that were not there fifty or even twenty years ago. They have been steadily increasing. Most of them have almost no data. Most chemicals on the market have at least sixty data gaps of importance.

MOST EGREGIOUS: Our country does NOT even routinely test to see if a synthetic chemical is neurotoxic. A good example of this is fluoride which has been used in water supples for nearly sixty years WITHOUT even basic neurotoxicity testing. It's judged to be neurotoxic in rats, but the phosphate industry (fluoride is a hazardous waste product from manufacturing) has contested this. If it wasn't for a series of elegant Chinese studies on fluoride and resulting brain deficits, we wouldn't even know that fluoride can damage a child's brain and reduce his IQ by up to 10 points. And yet the CDC and EPA won't even look at the new data that has evolved. It even ignored the 2006 review of the med / sci literature by the National Research Council. EPA also ignores its own EPA Union of Scientists which has come out against fluoride and has done so for almost twenty years.

We are controlled by corporations -- don't you get it?

And the federal agencies along with corporations have brainwashed us into having a cavalier attitude about toxic chemicals. Sort of a combination between the "dead bodies" type of regulation, and the "what you don't know can't hurt you" kind of regulation. People here have been thoroughly brainwashed to think that these chems are well researched before being used on the public and especially on vulnerable populations. Not true. We are screwed.

In Europe more than 30,000 chemicals are not allowed in use because of a lack of proof of safety. Here in the U.S. it takes sixty plus years to in the past to get rid of a dangerous chemical (it took that long to get a consensus that DIOXIN is carcinogenic), but economic interests are able to keep scrutiny of these chemicals so slow that there is almost no hope of getting them properly assessed. It has become slower here, not faster. Federal agencies like EPA, CDC, FDA and others, have been thoroughly corrupted by large corporations and powerful economic interests.

[kimmerspixelated]

343. EXACTLY!! We're controlled by corporations!

So glad to see a like-minded poster that gets it- the constant Big Pharma bullshit!

[kimmerspixelated]

342. Well, look up the origins of "Polio"

The info will blow your mind! I don't have a quick link, but will probably post on it soon.

[sendero]

360. More clever wording,.,.

... autism doesn't "kill" so it's not important.

[cureautismnow]

40. Were vaccines "wonderful" for these families?

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

There are 977 reported deaths here. How'd it work out for them?

[varkam]

285. Want to guess how many deaths we'd have without vaccines? eom

[cureautismnow]

300. You don't need to guess the children ALREADY dead from vaccines.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

Of course, these are just the ones whose families decided to hold the government accountable for their suffering and loss.

AFAIC, the establishment can vaccinate all it wants as long as it doesn't harm a single child. It's had 50+ years to analyze, evaluate, brainstorm, and fix the problems. Why are children still dying and being maimed TODAY? Perhaps, if more time was spent researching and finding solutions, rather than telling us how wonderful the vaccine program is and scaring us with hypothetical doomsday scenarios, we'd all have peace of mind.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

52. I think the whole anti-immunizations started

as a reaction to people poking babies so full of holes its amazing they don't leak like a sieve..

Before they even have any substantial immune system they are getting shots for diseases which are really on;y a substantial risk later in life.

[Warpy]

77. It's no fun sticking babies

but they get that first stick in the newborn nursery to test for PKU. Surprisingly, they manage to heal quickly. However, it's distressful enough that vaccinations have been combined in one shot whenever they can be.

There are tragic stories here all the time of babies who were too young to get the first round of immunizations getting one of those rare cases of pertussis or measles and dying from it. This state is very good at getting kids their shots on time, even out on the rez, but cases continue to occur among infants too young to immunize and adults who have let their immunizations lapse.

The antivax movement is more from the fact that autism spectrum disorders don't present themselves until the kid is 18 months to two years old and parents think the vaccines the kid is getting at the same time are to blame.

People have a natural tendency to confuse coincidence with cause. In this case, it can have tragic results as outbreaks of preventable illness have occurred in places where vaccines are freely available, most notably in the UK and in Kenya. Children die of these "usual childhood diseases." It's why vaccines were developed.

[Tesha]

72. Is it already time for the next round of this anti-vaccine bullshit?

[Warpy]

73. It's always time for antivax bullshit

because people with no medical knowledge and no memory of what life was like before immunizations have no clue and think they sound dead clever when they yap about it.

[Tesha]

76. Indeed.

> no memory of what life was like before immunizations

Indeed.

Tesha

[SteelPenguin]

207. My Great Grandmother had 11 siblings

12 Brothers and Sisters.

6 died from diseases we now vaccinate against while they were children.

[seabeyond]

246. this is what gets me. what was out there. yes i have memory. today, i am realizing what IS out

there. why in order to deal with the was must we ignore, dismiss or minimizes the IS.

children that are having there life missed up today are as important as those that died from disease. it doesn't have to be one against the other. it doesn't have to have the winner and the loser. but if we dont demand anything more, then we will relegate a part of our children to be the loser at expense to other, collateral damage, disposable.

[AikidoSoul]

233. You have no clue the number of brain injured children

that are out there now.

Warpy -- get the facts. There are 1 in 6 kids with developmental disabilities due to brain injury from chemicals and heavy metals.

How can you justify trading relief from having the measles, with risking brain injury.

See the Harvard Schl of Pub Health press release from 2006 above.

Did you miss it?

[pnwmom]

173. Vaccines may be much more dangerous for some genetically susceptible people.

It is past time for the medical community to acknowledge this. As I'm sure you know, this was recently conceded by the "vaccine court" that awarded damages to a child with a medical condition that made her especially susceptible to damage by the vaccines she received. Her condition is rare, but there are others that are much more common.

For example, there is a great deal of research showing that autistic people have a high rate of Celiac disease or gluten intolerance. Among other things, Celiac disease damages intestines in a way that affects how the vaccine (as well as vitamins and nutrients) is assimilated into the body.

Rather than fighting every assertion that vaccines may damage some children, the FDA should be paying for research into identifying which children can safely receive vaccines, and which cannot.

[Bonobo]

2. With our dysfunctional FDA and medical system, I don't know how ANYONE can trust even a flu shot.

We don't get them anymore.

I simply think it would be imprudent to trust an establishment that is so clearly non-functional.

Look at all the drug recalls!

Now even Singulair! There is no regulation at all. Stay away from the non-organic drugs people.

[katty]

13. I've never gotten a flu shot - no way! "maybe" when I am 80

[JeanGrey]

132. I get them every year. I am a transplant and have no choice.

The flu could kill me.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

30. Idiot?

You do know it's against the user rules to verbally abuse other posters, no?

I don't care about your paperwork, the former head of the JAMA says that the system is broken among many other professionals "in the know".

[Bonobo]

41. Someone called me an idiot for not injecting an unknown substance into my kid's bodies?

For not trusting a stupid, greedy fucking government that doesn;t care one SHIT about its citizens?

Well, whatever.

I think they're stupid. For a flu shot, it ain't worth it in my opinion. And guess what? WRT MY kids, MY opionion is the one that counts.

[seabeyond]

205. 46, never had flu. two kids 13 and 10 never had flu.

why would i get the shot and my kids shots. and i agree, why should i trust. they certainly havent earned it

[Cronus Protagonist]

94. The one time in my life I had a flu shot I was sicker than EVER before

I'll never do it again. I had a minor "flu" for two months and body aches and pains almost three months. I think it was poison. I don't know if it was the mercury or just the egg products, but something was fucked about it. I'll never do that again as long as I live.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Thank you for this. It's a good article. nt/

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. This story shows what can be done when parents have resources

and money, as Jenny McCarthy does. Most health insurance plans still won't cover therapy for autistic kids.

[truedelphi]

6. One of my beliefs abt national single payer

Universal health care is that ONCE THE DAMN GOVERNMENT has to pay out, the government will have a real and true vested interest in getting rid of the health risks in our society.

Why are pesticides regulated, but body care products unregulated? In theory at least, I have to have a license to spray a pesticide that contains formaldehyde, and/or benzene, but most grocery store hair care products contain one if not both of these toxins.

[Lance_Boyle]

10. cosmetics are regulated

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-toc.html

[truedelphi]

35. When you go to that page and look up the substances that are prohibited

You will see that benzene - the most statistically relevant chemical on the California Prop 65 list - is permitted. So is formaldehyde. If you pick up a personal care item - you will see that quaternium is the term that the cosmetics p
Saying the cosmetic industry is regulated is sort a like saying that we are winning in Iraq.

Though I will concede that apparently they won't allow for mercury in cosmetic preparations any more.

[Ilsa]

121. Insurance typically won't cover the conventional therapies, either, like

speech, occupational, etc. The only way to get the drugs covered is to diagnose the autistic child with a secondary problem, like ADHD. Anything referred to as "developmental delay" assumes the child will grow out of it and anyway, the schools are supposed to provide the therapy (and we know there isn't enough time and resources for therapy at the schools).

[Junkdrawer]

5. Glad to see Evan recovered. Gladder to see Evan has parents with a voice...

And, yes, POWERFUL interests want to make sure this disease remains a "mystery".

Even Big Pharma couldn't pay the damages that would result IF thimeresol were fingered.

[Feron]

7. Argh.

There is no such thing as autism recovery. Now functioning can improve, but autism is the way the brain is wired. There is no diet scheme, vitamin program or chelation that will make me an NT person. And that is not a bad thing either.

Some disorders or diseases can present autistic behaviors, but not be actual autism. The recent mito vaccine case is a case in point.

The opposite is true as well. I'm autistic and I was misdiagnosed for most of my life.

So I don't think that an autism misdiagnosis is that far out. If I recall correctly, her son also has a seizure disorder and there was a problem with the side effects of his medication at one point. Jenny doesn't mention this in the article, but no doubt it played a role in his supposed autism recovery.

I'm happy that her son has better functioning, but she does autistic people and their parents a major disservice by promoting unproven and unscientific snakeoil cures. An autistic boy Tariq Nadama, for example, died from chelation.

A great blog debunking autism woo: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/

[KamaAina]

9. Way'at Feron!

I, too, was a person with autism from La. (N.O., specifically) for two years. :hi:

No, I was not "cured"; like too many thousands of others, I had to leave. For some mysterious reason, what few decent jobs there were always seemed to go to NTs (for those of you just joining us, that's "neurotypicals", i.e. the large but rapidly shrinking majority of people who don't have autism).

On the bright side, it is the ONLY place I've ever been, and that includes NYC, SF, and now Hawai'i, where being a person with autism didn't automatically make me the weirdest person on the block!

Back on topic:

Some disorders or diseases can present autistic behaviors, but not be actual autism.

After my unfortunate departure, I went back home to Conn. and eventually caught on with the autism clinic at the Yale Child Study Center. There, one of the most respected researchers in the field told me that autism is not a disease, but "a behaviorally defined syndrome with multiple etiologies". Translated into English, that means that, if you act like a person with autism, you ARE a person with autism, and there are many different things that can cause you to be one.

If I recall correctly, her son also has a seizure disorder and there was a problem with the side effects of his medication at one point.

That's characteristic of one common subtype of autism: the regressive or Kanner type, in which the child develops typically until around 18 months to two years, then rapidly loses behaviors already learned, such as eye contact and even speech. It may well be that a particular diet or whatever works well with people who have this particular subtype, and presumably a similar underlying cause. That does NOT imply that it would work for either of us, or for most of the many other DUers with autism (enough of us to comprise an entire DU Group, along with some parents, siblings, etc.: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=387 ).

You do seem to know quite a bit about the subject. Is anybody doing any research down there, by any chance? :shrug:

[mzmolly]

31. Did you read the article?

Who's going to "prove" such claims when our governement is in such denial?

McCarthy has said that our collective/intellectual disintrest in how her son was "cured" is part of the problem.

[Celebration]

8. very inspiring

k & r

[earth mom]

12. Wow! 1 in 58 in England/Ireland?!!! That is insane!

What other conditions or diseases would have those kind of numbers before people would be freaking out about an epidemic?! Instead Autism has been treated with great disrespect and ignored for the most part...except for the screams of outrage from the parents. If it weren't for the parents, the public wouldn't even know what was really going on.


Also, as far as understanding what recovery from Autism actually means, I thought this quote said it perfectly:

'There are some who wonder what we mean when we say "recovering" from autism. They confuse the word recover with cure. While you may not be able to cure an injury caused in a terrible car accident, you can recover; you can regain many skills that you once lost. In the case of autism, we think there are treatments that often bring about such healing, so that the observable symptoms of the condition no longer exist. Even though we may no longer see any symptoms of autism, we can't say a child is "cured" because we do not know what they would have been like had they never been injured."

[Junkdrawer]

15. IF...repeat...IF..thimeresol were proven to be the cause...

It would be the biggest actionable heath disaster in history.

And you can bet your ass that Big Pharma has taken and continues to take very aggressive actions (as covertly as possible) to insure that the truth is never known.

[defendandprotect]

59. It's been proven over and over again ---

Wherever the vaccines were used the rates of autism spread ---
tremendous numbers of cases!

[LeftishBrit]

63. And it's been proved over and over again...

that wherever the vaccines aren't used, lots of children die of preventable diseases.

About two and a half million a year worldwide, according to WHO data.

[defendandprotect]

88. Thermerisol was put into the vaccines simply as a PERSERVATIVE . . .

it simply keeps the stuff on the shelf a longer period of time saving the drug companies money.

There was no necessity to include MERCURY in the vaccines ---
this was an issue of greed.

And no necessity to supply a vaccine with MERCURY in order to vaccinate children against preventable diseases.

3 yr investigation by the government regarding Mercury in medicine ...
3 yr investigation by the government regarding ... For anyone who's said they have yet to hear about an association between thermerisol and autism. ...
www.healthboards.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-134974.html - 15k - Cached

[LeftishBrit]

111. And nowadays they don't put the mercury in most vaccines in most places...

but this hasn't affected the rate of autism.

Anyway, it's great to take mercury out of vaccines. What's not so great is to try to prevent children from getting vaccines at all (and as I said earlier, there was never mercury in the MMR, at least not in the UK).

[seabeyond]

206. i bet you will also note the increase in mercury in fish and our other foods.

the mercury issue isnt at rest

also.... easy to spout facts without vaccination if you dont have a child effect and how those choldren are expendable for the greater good, when reality is, would have been easy for them to fix it, .... instead of sacrificing certain children. but they refused for a very long time

and the people on this board that says regardless of if it effects a child or not

a huge

fuck that shit

deal with the child that has to endure these changes in themselves then be condescending.

[LeftishBrit]

220. Actually, I suspect that mercury and other pollutants in food...

(especially when ingested in pregnancy) are FAR more likely to play a role in autism and other disorders than vaccinations are. And perhaps if people weren't so fixated on vaccinations, some other, more likely potential environmental triggers might get a bit more investigation.

And for that matter, try having had a family member who was desperately vulnerable to infections due to chemo, and constantly worrying that an ordinary infection might kill them, and THEN be condescending towards those who *do* favour vaccinations.

[seabeyond]

221. still at that you pit one child against another. still because it benefits another

or might cause issue with another, or the circumstance so great such as infecting an already sick child screw the honesty in what these shots may be doing.

even at that, ... still, you do exactly the same that i spoke of in the first post. so clearly, this is how fuckin easy it is to do

regardless if it is protecting the low immune child from these illnesses, or if it is protecting all from serious disease, or IF it is protecting the child from the shit they are putting in the damn vaccines that dont need to be there but is merely cost effective for the major pharma's..... regardless...... figure the shit out and keep our children safe

they are ALL important

i dont NEED to make your child less to make my child more

[LeftishBrit]

249. I know we are all important..

I was not suggesting that some children are more important than others, or that we should pit one child against another. I don't think that vaccines *do* cause autism, so I never made the argument that you are thinking of. (BTW, it was my parent, not my child, that I was referring to.) I wish your child all the best, and I hope that the best ways are found to help him.

I just get a bit upset sometimes when people imply that the only reason why some people support vaccinations and other aspects of modern medicine is that they are Big Pharma shills, or dupes of such. I know you did not say that, but others have.

Also, I think that there needs to be more knowledge of the real factors in autism and other disorders. There has been LOTS of research on vaccines and autism, which IMO has not shown any link; and I think this has actually gotten in the way of investigating other possible contributory factors such as infections and pollutants.

[sam sarrha]

333. that is no excuse not to fix the problem.. just because it may cost more

[LeftishBrit]

344. No, but it's a reason not to reject vaccines as such

I am all in favour of removing mercury from vaccines on general principle (even though I don't think it causes autism); and it has not been used in the UK for a long time.

[LeftishBrit]

65. Thimerosal isn't used in most vaccines in the UK...

and hasn't for a long long time. It was never used in the MMR vaccine here.

And most children in the UK do NOT get the flu vaccine.

So thimerasol certainly can't be blamed for any autism increases in the UK.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I bet it's something else in the modern environment:

plastic nursing bottles?

excessive exposure to car fumes?

exposure to carpeting adhesives?

The only way you'd ever REALLY know is to do a reverse epidemiological study on every autistic child to find common factors.

I've read some articles that say that the alleged "autism epidemic" is a matter of changed diagnostic categories rather than an actual increase. Until a few years ago, for instance, people with Asperger's were not considered autistic. In fact, when I was growing up, nobody knew about Asperger's, although as I look back, some kids certainly had it. We just called them "weird kids"; we didn't consider them "autistic." That diagnosis was reserved for children who were completely incapable of functioning in mainstream society, usually with retardation.

[Recursion]

334. Everybody discourages trying to find environmental patterns

Industry and government actively discourage it because if they're found someone will probably liable.

Researchers passively discourage it because it's never a sexy thing to publish and it doesn't fit in with our "one disease one pathogen" axiom.

[KamaAina]

16. Yes, that figure caught my eye, too.

Anyone have a link to that? The highest figure I've seen for the U.S. is 1 in 150.

Either way, though, if the rate keeps increasing like this, one day we'll be in the majority, and then I'll be President. :-)

[varkam]

26. That quote represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what autism is.

Autism is a delay in normal development, not a static condition. It is not analogous at all to an injury sustained during a motor vehicle collision.

[pnwmom]

181. Tell that to the millions of families with ADULTS still suffering from autism. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

64. Untrue. This was a false statement in the media.

There was a study that showed that 1 in 58 children were picked up by a screening questionnaire as possibly having an autistic spectrum disorder; but this questionnaire gives a lot of false positives, and at least half of the children picked up by the questionnaire turn out *not* to have an autistic spectrum disorder.

The following is a link to a news report where Simon Baron-Cohen (the principal investigator in the study,and one of Britain's leading autism researchers) clarifies the issue and several others

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article2060575.ece

Moreover, in the UK, the major recent increases are in diagnosis of Asperger syndrome, not classical autism; and this may reflect changes in diagnostic criteria (people have become much more 'Asperger-aware' here in recent years).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17947285?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. YES! That's what I said in my post below

In years past, people were diagnosed as "autistic" only when they were completely incapable of functioning in mainstream society--the kind of child who doesn't respond to other people, has screaming fits, appears retarded in cognitive tasks.

Asperger's first came into the meda about 10-15 years ago, and I immediately realized that several people I knew over the years had it. They were all capable of functioning in society, although in their own idiosyncratic way. We thought of them as "weird," but nobody ever thought of them as "autistic."

The process seems to have gone:

1. "Oh, hey, these kids we used to think of as just weird? It turns out they have an actual brain condition called Asperger's.


2. "Asperger's shares some traits with autism and seems to be a mild form of it."

3. "Asperger's IS autism."

4. "Oh, look, the number of autistic children has increased!"

[SidDithers]

86. Simon Baron-Cohen...

he was great in Borat. :evilgrin:

Any relation to the comedian?

Sid

[mitchum]

103. Yes, he is his brother (n/t)

[KamaAina]

104. Actually Simon Baron-Cohen is Sacha's cousin

I once had lunch with Simon when he visited Yale Child Study Center where I was working.

Sacha is MUCH more entertaining. :P

[LeftishBrit]

108. Yes, they are cousins.

[Midlodemocrat]

14. While I greatly admire McCarthy's devotion to her child's situation.

He hasn't been 'cured'. It is impossible to state what brought about the autism in the first place. Most healthcare professionals believe that there is both a biological and an environmental trigger, the environmental trigger NOT being vaccines. Thimerasol is contained in the flu vaccine, but the vaccine is not recommended for children under the age of 2 unless there are other severe mitigating factors, such as compromised immunity, asthma, etc.

Both and environmental trigger AND a biological trigger can explain why in some sets of multiples only one child is afflicted and in other sets, they all are.

And, like the article states, because autism has neurological components, it is impossible to benchmark where Evan might be right now if he had not been afflicted.

I applaud her efforts, though. Wholeheartedly. The Feingold diet, gluten-free and cassein-free diets have worked miracles with numerous children afflicted; but they are extremely hard to stick to. Very difficult for a family with more than one child.

[truedelphi]

33. McCarthy avoided the word "Cured" - she used the word "Recovery"

Just to point out that I think she understands what you are mentioning.

[GoneOffShore]

17. Only one thing to say

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey gave my kids autism.

Where's the sympathy for me, eh?

[varkam]

20. There's no link between thimerosal and autism.

:hi:

[Junkdrawer]

23. Not everyone would agree...

http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/thimerosal.php

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

[varkam]

24. 1. RFK is not a scientist

2. There have been no epidemiological studies that have found any connection between thimerosal and autism.

Here's a meta-analysis on the subject: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

[mzmolly]

36. "There have been no epidemiological studies that have found any connection between thimerosal and

"autism"?

I think I'd research that claim a bit more Varkam?

[varkam]

38. Show me.

Show me one study that has not been shown to have serious methodological flaws that supports a connection between thimerosal and autism. If memory serves, I've asked you before to produce such "research" that you say exists. Wakefield? Geier? Methodological flaws, criminal charges, conflicts of interest, cardboard cut-out IRBs, and wildly inaccurate conclusions aside those studies are not epidemological in nature. I stand by my original statement. Seems you're willing to look past a whole hell of a lot of problems in order to support research that agrees with your pre-conceived notions.

If there are epidemological studies that show a connection between thimerosal and autism, I'd love to see them.

Show me.

[mzmolly]

42. You said there were NO studies. Then you moved the goal posts.

Regarding "flaws" it depends on who you ask - as usual Varkam.

[varkam]

44. Oh, so studies with significant flaws meet your rigorous standards for data?

Nice to know I'm dealing with someone who cares about science. Okay then, show me your flawed epidemiological studies if that makes you feel any better - but it's not going to convince anyone who doesn't already have their head wedged firmly up their posterior.

Show me.

[mzmolly]

50. Again, not what you said. Every study can be picked apart by those with an agenda.

As for the studies, google them. I'm not going to continually provide you with the same info in thread after thread when you don't retain it.

[varkam]

56. You haven't shown me anything.

Any of the studies that I referenced can be picked apart by someone who is minimally conscious and has a basic understanding of the scientific method.

Wanna know why you haven't shown me any studies that support your claims? Because there are none.

Have a good night :hi:

[mzmolly]

60. Sure there are.

You've mentioned some of the study authors in this very thread. However, I prefer looking at studies on mercury and the brain personally. Epi. studies are sure to be confusing given the changing criteria for autism over the years.

I know you'll cringe, but here are some good references for research:

http://safeminds.org/research/current.html

http://www.autism.com/triggers/vaccine/thimerosalreferences.htm

I'll check back in the am. Have a good night yourself Varkam. :hi:

[varkam]

62. Being that I don't have time...

to sift through all those links, would you please point me to one epidemological study that shows a connection between thimerosal and autism? I didn't see any on my first pass - a lot of studies that were speculating about environmental causes, some on mercury levels, but no epidemiological data.

Oh, but by the way one of the studies linked to on SafeMinds comes to the conclusion that there is no connection between thimerosal and autism. I quote from the abstract:

CONCLUSIONS: The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented
herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal containing
vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in
young children being observed worldwide.

(emphasis mine)

There was a response listed, but it was curiously not on the server. Hmmm.

As for the second link, there are a ton of citations from the Geiers - nuff said.

And here's a few links of my own (if you could provide a link to a specific study, I'd appreciate it):

A meta-analysis: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/4/1028

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band118/b118-5.html

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e58

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-thim.htm

[mzmolly]

74. You keep mentioning the Geier study and asserting it does not exist at the same time.

However according to the IOM such studies are questionable, regardless. Yet the CDC and others quell concerns by saying "there are no reputable epi. studies linking X to Y."

If you are really interested, take some time to view this >

http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/Med_Hypoth_Blaxill_Redwood_Bernard.pdf

Note they mention an epi. studies on page 4. Also note the conclusion:

Conclusion

In the March 2003 issue of Pediatrics, Nelson and
Bauman’s ‘‘Thimerosal and Autism?’’ <11> answers
the title’s question through a unilateral dismissal
of the autism–mercury hypothesis. In the process,
the authors effectively oppose the findings of the
Institute of Medicine <4>, which in its October 2001
report found the connection between thimerosal
exposure and neurodevelopmental disorders to be
‘‘biologically plausible’’. Although the IOM found
insufficient evidence to accept or reject an association,
their report expressed concern that ‘‘action
might be delayed’’ and ‘‘recommend that
full consideration be given. . . to removing thimerosal
from vaccines administered to infants, children
or pregnant women in the United States’’. The
IOM also ‘‘recommend a diverse public health
and biomedical research portfolio. . . provides
some findings fairly quickly’’.

Just over a year after the IOM issued its report,
Nelson and Bauman, while offering no new evidence,
‘‘consider it improbable that thimerosal
and autism are linked’’. In addition, ‘‘when information
is incomplete’’, they offer the startling
suggestion that infant exposures to mercury in
vaccines should be continued. Their positions violate
principles of both precaution and scientific
method. If the arguments in their review were
well-supported by evidence, such an aggressive
792 Blaxill et al. posture might be defensible. Yet, as demonstrated
in this analysis, their arguments misinterpret the
evidence on early mercury exposure and autism
characteristics and require correction. When the
comparisons are fairly presented, characteristics
of autism do in fact mirror those of mercury exposure,
on symptom, neuroanatomical, body burden,
and epidemiological bases.

The facts are increasingly clear. The incidence
of autism has increased 10-fold in a decade (compare
<48–50> to <51,52>). Such order-of-magnitude
increases must have environmental roots. Increased
mercury exposure is both biologically and
epidemiologically plausible as a sole or contributing
causal factor. Instead of speculative dismissals
of this model, as offered by Nelson and Bauman,
we need more evidence-based research. This is
what the IOM has recommended and we should get
on with it.

And note the references as you can do more digging if you like.

Thanks for noting that Safeminds posts information and research from both sides of the debate, I knew that but others may not have.

[varkam]

127. Just glancing through it quickly...

that is not an epidemiological study. It's also written by at least one well-known ideologue (Bernard), there don't appear to be scientific credentials among the others (just from the by-line), and they dismiss methodological concerns from studies that discredit any connection out-of-hand. I'll read through it a bit further when I have a moment, but so far I'm not too impressed.

Again, I'd like a link to a epidemiological study that shows a connection between thimerosal and autism - if you can provide one.

You keep mentioning the Geier study and asserting it does not exist at the same time.

Where did I say that they don't exist? I know that the Geier studies exist, they're just crap is all.

Thanks for noting that Safeminds posts information and research from both sides of the debate, I knew that but others may not have.

They do? As on my pass through the site, that's the only study that comes to the conclusion that there's no connection that they posted despite the fact that there are dozens in publication. Presumably, they chose to include that one because they felt they could refute it (although the response is off-line).

[mzmolly]

130. Quickly - Here is where you said there were no such studies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3094786&mesg_id=3096255

Also, as I've said see page 4 of that report along with the references noted.

Here is another international study: http://www.safeminds.org/research/AnFacMedLima2006-67(3).pdf

"The scientific information was reviewed
for relate thimerosal and evidences to allow an assessment of possible
causal association among them; the evidence found in epidemiological, ecological,
biomolecular, toxicology, biosafety, fetal toxicology and reproductive health studies
signal the possible causal association of thimerosal exposure and neurodevelopmental
disorders of the child."

Key findings:

Based on more than 30 years of investigation, the ARI has determined that
establishing such injuries of neurodevelopmental disorders are: (24)

1. The use of organic Hg (thimerosal) as a preservative in pediatric vaccines,
which increased in number and frequency during the appearance of the epidemic of
ASD and other infant neurodevelopmental disorders in the U.S., as well as its
interaction with other toxins contained in the vaccines, such as aluminium and
formaldehyde.

2. The increase in the number of vaccinations and their respective booster shots,
via multivalent shots, especially the vaccine against measles contained in the triple viral
vaccine combination measles–mumps–rubella (MMR). (40-53)

3. Multiple immunizations given early in infancy to newborns and breastfeeding
infants less than 6 months (as well as the vaccine against viral hepatitis B), administered
before they have acquired sufficient metabolic maturity and immunological capability.
(54)

4. The increase in environmental pollution, given the presence of heavy metals,
pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, perchlorates, chemicals of military use, etc.;
conditioned on major exposure to heavy metals and toxic chemical substances. (55-60)

5. The use of antimony as a nonflammable agent in children’s clothing in some
areas of the U.S., where houses are made of wood and American law requires the use of
pyjamas with this material.

6. The diminution of quality of nutrition during pregnancy and first infancy,
especially from the decrease in breastfeeding and its substitution by artificial milk
formulas.

7. The use of substances of abuse before and during gestation. (61, 62)

From page 10 of the study linked above:

EVIDENCE

1. Epidemiological studies.

In the U.S., six large retrospective population based epidemiological studies
have been done, that evaluated the association between thimerosal contained in pediatric
vaccines and ASD. Of those, five investigations found that there was a causal
relationship between exposure to thimerosal and child neurodevelopment disorders (25-
27, 70, 71), while one eventually concluded that it could neither accept nor reject such a
hypothesis. (72)

As we know, epi. studies done will be interpreted differently at times by those who wish to examine them, thus the IOM suggestion that we need to examine research beyond such studies I imagine?

[varkam]

169. Hoo boy...

In the U.S., six large retrospective population based epidemiological studies
have been done, that evaluated the association between thimerosal contained in pediatric
vaccines and ASD. Of those, five investigations found that there was a causal
relationship between exposure to thimerosal and child neurodevelopment disorders (25-
27, 70, 71), while one eventually concluded that it could neither accept nor reject such a
hypothesis. (72)

Guess what? All of those studies referenced that support the connection were conducted by the Geiers. Not exactly stalwarts of scientific integrity. Even if they were respectable investigators, results would need to be replicated by different investigators to rule out possibility of bias. Of course, the key word in that last sentence is "were". It also seems a bit odd that the only evidence that paper offers as epidemiological support are several studies conducted by the same group of people.

[mzmolly]

178. You said there were no epi. studies demonstrating a connection.

As for the Geiers, the NIH was satisfied with Mark Geier's "scientific integrity" when they hired him as a researcher and employed him for ten years. Johns Hopkins University was satisfied when he was hired as a professor. The Oxford Journal was satisfied with his work when they awarded him the Stanley W. Jackson award - and so on. Simply because he's been added to the big pharma shit list for daring to think, does not mean his credentials are lacking.

Further, the IOM discouraged epidemiological studies in their 2004 report calling them unreliable in the case of autism. This mantra discourages the funding of such studies I presume? Yet, they put out the talking point you regurgitated above "there are no/insufficient epi. studies linking autism to ...."

Also note, the IOM used the same "five" studies are used to deny a link.

I too would like to see more independent research in this regard as would the autism society.

http://www.autism-society.org/site/DocServer/EH_epidemiologic_approaches.pdf?docID=4751

[varkam]

199. Are you defending the Geier's work in this area?

Really?

Improper appeals to authority abound, of course only when it suits your own needs.

And, as I said, you really need not just multiple studies, but also multiple studies conducted by different investigators that arrive at similar conclusions to start to establish a link.

Further, the IOM discouraged epidemiological studies in their 2004 report calling them unreliable in the case of autism. This mantra discourages the funding of such studies I presume? Yet, they put out the talking point you regurgitated above "there are no/insufficient epi. studies linking autism to ...."

That's funny, because a few months ago a major epidemiological study was released that examined the role of vaccines and NDDs and found (gasp!) no connection - though I guess that science was bought and paid for. Incidentally, Sallie Bernard was involved in the design of that study and of course withdrew her name once it came out that the results weren't going to line up with her personal beliefs.

There's a sister study coming out this year I believe that looks at autism specifically. If you want to place a wager on what those results are going to be, I'll be happy to oblige.

Have a good one :hi:

[mzmolly]

208. Yes, I'm defending Geier.

But, that's another thread. ;)

I am familiar with the white wash study you noted and the fact that not all scientists agree on the interpretation of such studies, which is why I prefer hard science such as that conducted by Thomas M. Burbacher.

It's too easy to play he said she said with the epidemiological "evidence".

Also, I don't think anyone of value claimed that vaccines "cause" autism, yet "studies" conducted by our Feds often set out to disprove that non-claim, which only confuses the issue (a goal of theirs) I'm sure.

You have a good one too Varkam. :hi:

[varkam]

238. Feds study the issue...

because of fear mongering by orgs like SafeMinds, NVIC, et al. At least, that's why the issue was studied recently. The issue was initially studied because there was concern - but that concern has not been borne out by the research.

And if the epidemiological evidence fails to show a connection, how can people continue to assert that there is a connection?

[mzmolly]

259. The epi evidence again is a he said she said.

Pardon me if I don't respond V, but I'm apparently being sued by one Larry Sinclair, so I'm off to other things for the time being.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3110571

[varkam]

274. It's not a he said she said when it comes to the science.

:shrug:

It's fine - good luck with the suit, though just some friendly advice: you should probably try to be as mum about the whole thing as possible :hi:

[mzmolly]

280. So I hear!

"you should probably try to be as mum about the whole thing as possible" Thankfully, after similar warning from a DU friend, I didn't start a thread on the "injustice"!

I disagree with your other statement above, but I'm sure you knew that. ;)

Ok, I'm out.

[varkam]

248. I would've edited, but I was too late: it also appears that there is a major conflict of interest...

in that the Geier's are long-time associates (business and otherwise) of one Clifford Shoemaker - the counsel of record for the Polling family. Those two have quite the history...

[cureautismnow]

251. Will you defend the IOM's Fineberg, Dr. McCormick, and Dr. Stratton?

These folks have credibility and conflict of interest problems, too.

"IOM President Harvey Fineberg defended the committee in this statement, explaining that, "the members of the committee underwent a stringent review process that ensured all were free of financial conflicts of interest and were not biased for or against any vaccine safety hypothesis." Yet, these secretly obtained handwritten meeting notes reveal that many Committee members had conflicts of interest and they were openly discussed, like the notes stating "Pharma company" and "$5000 Merck" and "vaccines should be continued" and "Smith-Kline Beecham" and "American Home Products" and "financial push to approve vaccines."

IOM Closed Door Committee Meeting
January 12, 2001
Leaked transcript of IOM Committee Deliberations. As a private institution, the IOM is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.
This transcript, in a meeting held long before ANY evidence was reviewed; show how the conclusion had already been pre-determined by CDC:
Dr. McCormick: ... wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a population basis (p. 33).
Dr. Stratton: ...The point of no return, the line we will not cross in public policy is pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We could say it is time to revisit this, but we would never recommend that level. Even recommending research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn't say compensate, we wouldn't say pull the vaccine, we wouldn't say stop the program. (p. 74).
Dr. McCormick: ...we are not ever going to come down that is a true side effect...(p. 97)
On pages 149 & 150, you see the following exchange, showing how the IOM Committee avoided looking at case studies demonstrating how vaccines caused autism in children:
Dr. Johnston: Barbara Loe Fisher could give you names. Mrs. Fisher said she had cases. I think she came up to say if you needed any cases to demonstrate the points, you could have them.
Dr. McCormick: She was demonstrating causality. She was taken by your case series that you did -- the Guillaume Barre (sic) and whatever, the tetanus. She was all ready to get you cases to prove causality.
Dr. Wilson: Well, let's see them.
Dr. McCormick: Let's not do that. Do you have a free weekend that you want to plod through them?

http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter6.html

[varkam]

268. Tu quoque.

:hi:

[cureautismnow]

287. Thanks, Pot. Kettle will put you down for a No.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

258. Unfortunately,

questioning vaccination results in smearing those who do and this leaves little in the way of those willing to speak out and help parents involved in such matters.

[varkam]

269. And you don't think the enormous conflict of interest that the Geiers have...

has anything to do with the fact that they are are among the very few researchers who have concluded that vaccines cause autism? They've made quite a pretty penny off of the whole thing.

And, if you recall, the now discredited Wakefield also had similar conflicts of interest in that he was working for a lawyer who was suing pharma companies,

[mzmolly]

275. No,

I don't feel that Mr. Geier and his son set out to question vaccines.

Dr. Mark R. Geier, M.D., Ph.D. is a geneticist and President of the Genetic Centers of America, which for the past 23 years has offered clinical prenatal genetics services to the Northern Virginia, Washington, D.C., and Baltimore areas. Dr. Geier has worked in the fields of molecular and cell biology and genetic engineering at the National Institutes of Health for ten years. Dr. Geier has also been a professor at The Johns Hopkins University Hospital.

I don't dismiss his credentials lightly. Source = http://autismmedia.org/media2.html

As to how has been discredited, that's a matter of opinion.

[varkam]

277. Improper appeal to authority.

Still doesn't address the issue, though - namely that the Geiers have a conflict of interest. Whether or not the "set out" to answer the question is irrelevant.

Also, as far as their qualifications - at least one court has ruled that they don't pass the smell test when it comes to this area.

[mzmolly]

279. Conflicts of interest surrounding the issue of vaccination are not limited to Geier,

as you know Varkam.

[varkam]

281. Tu quoque.

I'm talking about Geier, and not anyone else. Other parties' conflicts of interest have no bearing on whether or not (a) the Geiers are qualified in this area of medicine or (b) they have a conflict of interest themselves. If the refrain that I often hear (that conflicts of interest mean that the results can't be trusted) rings true here as well, then what does that mean about their work?

[mzmolly]

286. I'm sorry that you take issue with Mr. Geier. As I've said, the NIH found him credible

when they hired him as a researcher and employed him for ten years. The IOM has also invited him to testify on the adverse effects of vaccinations. Perhaps you should inquire with these bodies as to why they trust(ed) him?

Mark R. Geier (b. 1948, Washington, D.C.) is a medical doctor based in Silver Spring, Maryland. He was a researcher at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) for ten years, and previously was a professor at Johns Hopkins University. He has studied the subject of vaccines for more than 30 years and has published over 50 peer-reviewed papers on vaccine safety, efficacy, contamination and policy. He has authored over 90 publications and has made several presentations to the Institute of Medicine (IOM) on the adverse effects of vaccinations.

[varkam]

288. And, yet again, improper appeal to authority.

And, as I said, at least one court has already ruled that he is not qualified to comment on this area.

Also note that there is a difference between adverse effects and the mercury-autism hypothesis. I don't quibble that vaccines have adverse effects, though autism is not one of them.

And I ask again - what does the conflict of interest mean for the research?

[mzmolly]

290. He's testified in over 100 cases,

thus, several courts have deemed him qualified.

As for what you quibble with (again) the vaccine court just ruled that autism is "one of them".

[varkam]

292. Noooo, that's not what they ruled.

They ruled that the vaccine aggravated an underlying MtD disorder (whose etiology was genetic) which in turn caused features of autism. The court did not rule that autism is an adverse reaction of vaccines.

As far as the court issue: and several do not. Perhaps VICP has a different standard for their witnesses as opposed to federal courts.

And, again, I ask: what does the conflict of interest mean for the research?

[mzmolly]

294. No vaccines, no autism

the ruling in a nutshell. Call it "aggravating an underlying condition" if you prefer. However, the father of the child in question, a neurologist disputes the "underlying condition" assertion.

As for the research, Geiers research began long before claims of any conflict of interest Varkam, which I suppose, is the reason he was invited by the IOM to testify on the matter?

[varkam]

296. That MtD only occurs in a small subset...

of people with autism. It was the MtD that caused the autism, as a result of various stressors (among which was the vaccine) - that's according to the ruling. It isn't exactly going to set a precedent.

Out of curiousity, I checked the wiki on Geier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

Hmmm, found a few more conflicts of interest there that I wasn't aware of.

[mzmolly]

297. That doesn't mean that this MtD is the only DNA issue that may

result in autism when a particular vaccine is introduced.

Hmmm, found a few more conflicts of interest there that I wasn't aware of.

And, I did not know he was a researcher for ten years at the NIH before checking WIKI either. Learn something new every day huh? ;)

[varkam]

298. You do love those appeals to authority, don't you?

Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with either his current conflicts of interest, the methodological flaws in his work, or the fact that he lacks expertise in the area of pediatrics.

That doesn't mean that this MtD is the only DNA issue that may result in autism when a particular vaccine is introduced.

It also doesn't mean that it isn't. You brought up the Polling case - I merely noted that the vaccine acted as a stressor to the underlying condition. Many different things can act as stressors, it appears that in this case it was the vaccine. And, as I've pointed out repeatedly, the VICP does not use a scientific standard for determining compensation - so you I don't see how scientific conclusions can be drawn from it.

[mzmolly]

301. You merely regurgitated what the "authorities" on the court claimed.

Then you said I enjoy appealing to authority?

As for the court conclusion, I'm not the one who is drawing a conclusion based upon their ruling, you are. I have stated that I agree with the child's neurologist, and father who indicated that she had no "condition" prior to being vaccinated. Where he and the court agree is on the fact that vaccines triggered autism in this child.

As to Dr. Geier, are you saying one must be a pediatrician to research vaccination? As to the claim that his work is flawed, that's a matter of opinion again. The fact is you claimed his work did not exist initially.

[varkam]

312. I wasn't appealing to authority.

I'm not the one saying "But all these fancy doctors say this thing, so therefore it must be true!"

As for the court conclusion, I'm not the one who is drawing a conclusion based upon their ruling, you are. I have stated that I agree with the child's neurologist, and father who indicated that she had no "condition" prior to being vaccinated. Where he and the court agree is on the fact that vaccines triggered autism in this child.

Apparently, then, the father isn't well-versed with his own child's medical records, as the court's conclusion was based on those records.

As to Dr. Geier, are you saying one must be a pediatrician to research vaccination? As to the claim that his work is flawed, that's a matter of opinion again. The fact is you claimed his work did not exist initially.

Haha! Please point out where I claimed that Geier's research didn't exist. By saying that there are no epidemiological studies that show a connection, that means that epidemiological studies with significant methodological (or otherwise) flaws still are not sufficient to claim a connection.

And you don't have to be a pediatrician to research vaccines, but it sure does help when you start getting into the realm of...well...pediatricians.

[mzmolly]

314. Who are YOU appealing to? Yourself? What are your credentials?

Also, I'm not appealing to "fancy doctors" I'm reading the research. As for the father of the child not being well versed, I'll let that absurd comment speak for itself Varkam. As I've said he's a neurologist and his wife is an RN. Both parents have a medical background.

that means that epidemiological studies with significant methodological (or otherwise) flaws still are not sufficient to claim a connection

No, that's not what it means, but if you wish to clarify, using the official talking point, fine.

And you don't have to be a pediatrician to research vaccines, but it sure does help when you start getting into the realm of...well...pediatricians.

The realm of pediatricians ... to make money? Pediatricians don't conduct vaccine science, they believe what they are told by drug co.s and the organizations who's job it is to promote vaccination. However, there are pediatricians who dare to question as well Varkam, if that's your criteria for having a valid position on the matter?

[varkam]

315. I was just going on the court transcript and what I know about VICP.

Also, I'm not appealing to "fancy doctors" I'm reading the research. As for the father of the child not being well versed, I'll let that absurd comment speak for itself Varkam. As I've said he's a neurologist and his wife is an RN. Both parents have a medical background.

Again, the conclusions that were drawn were based upon Polling's medical records. Also, the parents have a gigantic conflict of interest - not necessarily financial, mind you, but emotional. I'm not saying that's wrong; if they weren't, then I would wonder about them.

No, that's not what it means, but if you wish to clarify, using the official talking point, fine.

Is that the official talking point? Silly me, I thought it was a sound logical conclusion that studies full of holes shouldn't be used to support conclusions. BTW, I clarified several posts back.

The realm of pediatricians ... to make money? Pediatricians don't conduct vaccine science, they believe what they are told by drug co.s and the organizations who's job it is to promote vaccination. However, there are pediatricians who dare to question as well Varkam, if that's your criteria for having a valid position on the matter?

So pediatricians are in it for the money? So, apparently, their financial conflict of interest matters a great deal...but the Geiers' doesn't? Hmmmm, I see. Normally, people who are best qualified to comment on issues surrounding the health of children are people who have been trained in issues surrounding the health of children, which Geier has not been. But since Geier believes something that you also agree with, he must be in it for the love of truth and science despite his own many issues that you are more than eager to look past, correct?

If your assertion is that ped docs are just in it for the money and don't actually care about the health of children, then you're basically relying on a giant ad hominem argument with a sprinkle of conspiracy theory to make your point, but know that it's not that impressive to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

For the record, I'm not saying that the Geiers' research is null and void because there is a conflict of interest (as that would be an ad hom) - I was just posting that to see how hypocritical anti-vaxxers would get when the same charges that they level at researchers that disagree with them are directed at the Geier et al.

Questioning is fine - questions are the bedrock of science. Given that the thimerosal-autism hypothesis has sort of been done to death in the scientific community, continued belief in it is not really about questioning but rather is more akin to religious faith.

[mzmolly]

323. You clarified after I showed you that your

statement was false.

Again, the conclusions that were drawn were based upon Polling's medical records. Also, the parents have a gigantic conflict of interest - not necessarily financial, mind you, but emotional. I'm not saying that's wrong; if they weren't, then I would wonder about them.

As for the parents, they are the experts on their child and again are medical professionals who assisted in documenting their daughters condition. They understand the information submitted to the court.

Neurologists are qualified to diagnose autism and form a professional, scientific opinion on what lead to that diagnosis. Dad, again is a Neurologist.

Is that the official talking point? Silly me, I thought it was a sound logical conclusion that studies full of holes shouldn't be used to support conclusions. BTW, I clarified several posts back.

Yes, suddenly any study that conflicts with the dogma is "full of holes" and any qualified scientist is no longer so.

So pediatricians are in it for the money? So, apparently, their financial conflict of interest matters a great deal...but the Geiers' doesn't?

Well now that could work both ways couldn't it Varkam? However as I've indicated, Geier wasn't in a position of such a conflict initially.

Hmmmm, I see. Normally, people who are best qualified to comment on issues surrounding the health of children are people who have been trained in issues surrounding the health of children, which Geier has not been. But since Geier believes something that you also agree with, he must be in it for the love of truth and science despite his own many issues that you are more than eager to look past, correct?

"The health of children" is a pretty vague blanket to use when we're specifically discussing vaccination. Geier is a researcher and a geneticist who has studied vaccination for thirty plus years, thus I've considered his work along with many others. However, you'll have to share with me why you feel pediatricians are more qualified than scientists like Geier and Burbacher etc. to form an opinion on vaccination issues. Though, if you prefer to consider the opinions of pediatricians vs. the actual science, you should familiarize yourself with pediatricians who question vaccination, there are several.

Here's one such professional who's credentials are as follows:

Professor of Clinical Pediatrics
Clinical Professor of Medicine
Chief, Section of Pediatric Immunology, Allergy and Rheumatology
Department of Pediatrics

http://www.autismmedia.org/eldahr1w.html">WINDOWS MEDIA VIDEO

And ANOTHER

Dr. Mumper practices Pediatrics in Lynchburg, Virginia. Dr. Elizabeth Mumper, a female, graduated from the VA Commonwealth University Med College of VA School of Med with an MD and has been in the profession for 28 years.

http://www.autismmedia.org/mumper2w.html">WINDOWS MEDIA VIDEO

More here: http://autismmedia.org/media2.html

If your assertion is that ped docs are just in it for the money and don't actually care about the health of children, then you're basically relying on a giant ad hominem argument with a sprinkle of conspiracy theory to make your point, but know that it's not that impressive to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Wow, that's a heck of a strawman Varkam. My assertion is that most pediatricians are deliberately kept in the dark, much like yourself.

For the record, I'm not saying that the Geiers' research is null and void because there is a conflict of interest (as that would be an ad hom) - I was just posting that to see how hypocritical anti-vaxxers would get when the same charges that they level at researchers that disagree with them are directed at the Geier et al.

It's not hypocritical given he had no conflict when he came out with his initial work. He has become an expert relied upon by attorneys so of course he's deemed "conflicted".

Questioning is fine - questions are the bedrock of science. Given that the thimerosal-autism hypothesis has sort of been done to death in the scientific community, continued belief in it is not really about questioning but rather is more akin to religious faith.

I agree there is a religion at work. Religion in the way of covering your eyes and blinding yourself to any "science" that negates your preformed opinion. Further, the religious vaccine zealots insist that this matter is settled, something even the IOM doesn't assert.

By the way, I started out supporting vaccination, I've had all my childhood jabs, and I followed the ill advice of my Nurse/Practitioner when I was expecting my first child when she suggested that I have an MMR "booster". This due to the fact that (blood tests indicated) that the vaccines I had as children, were no longer conferring protection against Measles. Not a good idea, in hindsight.

[varkam]

324. I assumed that it would be understood I was talking about real science.

I assumed incorrectly.


As for the parents, they are the experts on their child and again are medical professionals who assisted in documenting their daughters condition. They understand the information submitted to the court.

If you say so.

Neurologists are qualified to diagnose autism and form a professional, scientific opinion on what lead to that diagnosis. Dad, again is a Neurologist.

I may be wrong here, but docs are also verboten from having multiple relationships with their patients - a daughter constitutes a relationship. This is so for many reasons, notably the issues surrounding one relationship affecting the issues with a professional relationship - in this case, I would find it incredibly hard to believe that the father would be able to remain totally dispassionate and objective. I guess you disagree.

Yes, suddenly any study that conflicts with the dogma is "full of holes" and any qualified scientist is no longer so.

You seem to not be reading what I'm writing. Geier may be qualified to comment on adverse vaccine reactions, but that is not the same as pediatrics.

Well now that could work both ways couldn't it Varkam? However as I've indicated, Geier wasn't in a position of such a conflict initially.

He isn't? Really? In bed with a major player in the VICP litigation, payouts to the tune of 500k, his son being the president of a medical company that produces a product he was pumping as a cure for autism, stacked IRBs with people who had little to no scientific training and conflicts of their own? Apparently, he's also been in the autism business for about 20 years now. You can say there's no conflict of interest all you want to, but it doesn't make it so.

"The health of children" is a pretty vague blanket to use when we're specifically discussing vaccination. Geier is a researcher and a geneticist who has studied vaccination for thirty plus years, thus I've considered his work along with many others. However, you'll have to share with me why you feel pediatricians are more qualified than scientists like Geier and Burbacher etc. to form an opinion on vaccination issues. Though, if you prefer to consider the opinions of pediatricians vs. the actual science, you should familiarize yourself with pediatricians who question vaccination, there are several.

You just said that Geier is a pediatrician? Why is it that courts have noted is lack of qualification in the area of pediatrics, then?

Wow, that's a heck of a strawman Varkam. My assertion is that most pediatricians are deliberately kept in the dark, much like yourself.

Sorry - just misunderstood your claim. The burden of brilliance and of knowing the truth must be terrible, especially when there are so many dunces like myself that just won't listen!

I agree there is a religion at work. Religion in the way of covering your eyes and blinding yourself to any "science" that negates your preformed opinion. Further, the religious vaccine zealots insist that this matter is settled, something even the IOM doesn't assert.

Sure.

By the way, I started out supporting vaccination, I've had all my childhood jabs, and I followed the ill advice of my Nurse/Practitioner when I was expecting my first child when she suggested that I have an MMR "booster". This due to the fact that (blood tests indicated) that the vaccines I had as children, were no longer conferring protection against Measles. Not a good idea, in hindsight.

It would then appear that you also have a conflict of interest, albeit an understandable one.

eta as to the videos - there's some issue with my computer and can't view them - though the fact that the page is populated with the likes of Geier and Wakefield doesn't exactly inspire me - though perhaps you'd like to defend Wakefield as well, even though he's about to have his medical license stripped and Lancet retracted his study (though I suppose that's just retaliation for his daring to tell the truth).

I did read the blurb on Burbacher, though and it appears that he's discussing the recent study on toxcicty. Not exactly a smoking gun, now is it?

[mzmolly]

326. Geier is a "real" scientist. Must be why the NIH hired him as well as John's Hopkins?

I may be wrong here, but docs are also verboten from having multiple relationships with their patients - a daughter constitutes a relationship.

The daughter has had a team of doctors who consulted with the parents involved. The parents are openly pro-vaccination. They did not set out to question the procedure.

You can say there's no conflict of interest all you want to, but it doesn't make it so.

I did not say there is no conflict. I said there is one, today - there was not one when he began his work.

You just said that Geier is a pediatrician? Why is it that courts have noted is lack of qualification in the area of pediatrics, then?

No I didn't. I said he was a scientist, and provided you with two qualified pediatricians who feel that there is an autism/vaccine connection. Did you watch the videos?

Sorry - just misunderstood your claim. The burden of brilliance and of knowing the truth must be terrible, especially when there are so many dunces like myself that just won't listen!

I am of the opinion that good people can disagree Varkam. You are an good/intelligent person, whom I disagree with.

It would then appear that you also have a conflict of interest, albeit an understandable one.

Not really. I do see the benefit of vaccination and I don't necessarily believe that the MMR vaccine is responsible for my child's neurological issues, but I don't rule out the possibility either. I simply believe that vaccination should be a choice made after getting fair information on both sides about the risk v. benefit of each individual vax.

as to the videos - there's some issue with my computer and can't view them - though the fact that the page is populated with the likes of Geier and Wakefield doesn't exactly inspire me - though perhaps you'd like to defend Wakefield as well, even though he's about to have his medical license stripped and Lancet retracted his study (though I suppose that's just retaliation for his daring to tell the truth).

I hope you'll visit the website and view the quick time videos under the circumstances.

I did read the blurb on Burbacher, though and it appears that he's discussing the recent study on toxcicty. Not exactly a smoking gun, now is it?

I'm not sure what you consider a smoking gun? I think it's a smoking gun in that such studies have not conducted previously. I consider it a smoking gun in that ethyl-mercury stays in the brain at larger concentrations for a longer period than methyl-mercury. I consider it a smoking gun in that the official "methyl mercury leaves the body quicker..." mantra is really not germane to the discussion regarding vaccines and mercury.

I'm almost done discussing this issue Varkam as once again our conversation has become both circular and non-productive. Any last words?

[sendero]

361. You keep talking..

... about "conflict of interest" and failing to note who has the most HUGE conflict of interest, the people who manufactured this crap.

Also, like most people, your idea of what constitutes "science" is a joke, most medical "science" is quite subjective and it always will be.

Studies who's conclusions you don't like are "flawed", as if every study every made involving human beings isn't.

Eventually, we'll know the truth about all this - in the meantime it was STUPID and RECKLESS to put mercury in vaccines, and had the assholes not done it we would not be having this discussion right now.

[AikidoSoul]

308. innuendo -- won't do. Support the statement or don't say it

You are the perfect example of the values emobodied by the U.S. federal agencies and the chem/ pharm industry on toxics.

You know full well that it can take decades to prove "cause and effect" with the almost impossible standard of scientific certainty.

The standard of proof for cause and effect is nearly impossible to prove, and of course this serves industry extremely well. Nothing else has proven more helpful to industry than the criterion that it is the victim who must "prove cause and effect".

You will probably never see value of the Precautinary Principle, which requires that you not market chemicals or products if their is sufficient evidence of harm... or even reports showing a pattern of injury. Any company that puts mercury in products that go into children's bodies is asking for disaster, and yet because of this sick system of non-regulation. it is families and children who must bear the burden of proof.

It's criminal...

In Europe it is quite the opposite. It's the chem/pharm industry that has to prove something is safe before it is marketed to the public.

[mzmolly]

32. Remember Varkam, our federal vaccine court just conceeded that there is a link.

EXPERTS who looked at the case of Hannah Polling paid out an award indicating that vaccines led to symptoms of autism in this child.

Parse words and get into semantics on behalf of big pharma all you like, but the cat is officially out of the bag, and there are more felines to follow. ;)

[varkam]

37. You can twist it all you want to, but it still doesn't mean you're telling the truth.

This has been done to death, and I really have no interest in explaining again why it was that the case was not nearly as significant as you make it out to be. Suffice it to ask the following question: if the "cat were out of the bag", as you say, then why did the plaintiffs agree to settle the case as opposed to take it further?

And so you know, your accusations that I'm a shill are getting a wee bit tiresome - though I'm sure you don't care in the slightest.

[mzmolly]

43. There is no "further" in vaccine court Varkam.

And, I didn't say you were a shill, but if the shoe fits...

[varkam]

45. "...Parse words and get into semantics on behalf of big pharma all you like..."

Didn't call me a shill, huh? No, you just implied I was one. It must be so hard to be fighting on the side of truth and justice all the time.

There isn't a "further"? I was under the impression that the feds preempted a jury award by offering a settlement (read: the process did not run a full course). If it was such a slam-dunk, why not go all the way?

[mzmolly]

49. That's who you are advocating for, so as I've also said

if the shoe fits.

True, government "experts" offered a settlement based upon medical records alone. I misunderstood your rationale for bringing that up.

[varkam]

54. I just happen to care about science.

Sorry if that offends you :hi:

[mzmolly]

75. If you cared about science I would not be offended.

You care about PR Varkam, there is a difference.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. That's disingenious.

I've never seen anyone post anything that refutes his claims here. Claims of studies often have links that don't exist or are so clearly flawed a 3rd grader could tell. Then you claim it's all about PR for him, hello pot meet kettle.

David

[mzmolly]

118. I'm glad he

has a fan club.

[varkam]

128. Awwww, whassa matter?

Jealous? :D

[mzmolly]

129. Sure,

I am. ;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

133. Just a fan of the truth.

[mzmolly]

135. Well then, stop reading the thread.

You may be disappointed in your hero if you continue to examine the conversation. ;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

138. How about I just stop reading the people who don't back their assertions with valid studies?

It would be different if you said they might be a link or vaccines combined with other environmental. development and genetic factors might cause autism. I don't know what causes autism. The fact is vaccines have saved millions of lives, that we do know. I've examined the conversation here for years, thanks for the condescension though.

David

[mzmolly]

140. How bout you suspend critical thinking

and deny facts/studies when presented inserting big pharmas cultish talking points?

Oh, that's right - too late!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3094786&mesg_id=3101341

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

141. Nice link in that post, did you actually try it or just make it up?

[mzmolly]

143. Not sure what you mean.

It's a link to my post # 127 in this thread, and the link works for me.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

146. You didn't write post #127 and your link to the studies in your post #130 doesn't work.

[mzmolly]

147. Excuse me my reply to post 127 which is post #130 and I just clicked the link again.

Worked just fine.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

149. This is what happens when you click your link in several different browsers.

Not Found

The requested URL /research/AnFacMedLima2006-67 was not found on this server.
Apache/2.0.52 (CentOS) Server at www.safeminds.org Port 80

[cureautismnow]

154. There's an extra space in her aforementioned link.

It's between the 67 and (3).

Try:

http://www.safeminds.org/research/AnFacMedLima2006-67(3).pdf

instead.

No, that doesn't work either. DU code must be adding that space or it doesn't like the parentheses.

Go to http://www.safeminds.org/research/current.html and click on the link that says:

Download Research Report - PDF File. 389KB

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

183. Some Interesting Stuff There

Autism and thimerosal-containing vaccines: lack of consistent evidence for
an association.

Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D.

Department of Epidemiology, School of Public Health and Community Medicine,
University of Washington, Seattle, WA, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: In 1999, concerns were raised that vaccines containing the
preservative Thimerosal might increase the risk of autism and/or other
neurodevelopmental disorders. METHODS: Between the mid-1980s through the late-
1990s, we compared the prevalence/incidence of autism in California, Sweden, and
Denmark with average exposures to Thimerosal-containing vaccines. Graphic ecologic
analyses were used to examine population-based data from the United States (national
immunization coverage surveys and counts of children diagnosed with autism-like
disorders seeking special education services in California); Sweden (national inpatient
data on autism cases, national vaccination coverage levels, and information on use of all
vaccines and vaccine-specific amounts of Thimerosal); and Denmark (national registry of
inpatient/outpatient-diagnosed autism cases, national vaccination coverage levels, and
information on use of all vaccines and vaccine-specific amounts of Thimerosal).
RESULTS: In all three countries, the incidence and prevalence of autism-like disorders
began to rise in the 1985-1989 period, and the rate of increase accelerated in the early
1990s. However, in contrast to the situation in the United States, where the average
Thimerosal dose from vaccines increased throughout the 1990s, Thimerosal exposures
from vaccines in both Sweden and Denmark-already low throughout the 1970s and
1980s-began to decrease in the late 1980s and were eliminated in the early 1990s.
CONCLUSIONS: The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented
herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal-
containing vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in
young children being observed worldwide.

[cureautismnow]

186. What's more interesting is how that "study" came about.

"By August, Dr. Simpson was getting desperate as she lamented in an email that, "events have slightly accelerated with Walt's return and anxiety over trying to get these data. Consequently, we are TENTATIVELY planning for you and I to go to Denmark and Sweden on August 22...if a trip is to occur in time for the IOM it has to be in this time frame." In many ways, the trip to Sweden and Denmark was Dr. Simpson's last shot at finding data, as her August 6 email shows:
"Should we find that any other country has good data on both autism and vaccines, we will work to get that data on a case by case basis. i.e., I don't know what we are going to do and don't want to think about it right now- but we will do something."
The "something" Dr. Simpson did was find a Danish vaccine company, Status Serum Institute, willing to work with CDC. A company who sold thimerosal-containing vaccines and a company who would soon see an enormous rise in the number of vaccines sold to the United States. Along with her colleague, Dr. Paul Stehr-Green, Dr. Simpson was heading to Denmark. Two years later, Dr. Simpson and Dr. Stehr-Green would be published authors, along with employees of SSI, letting the world know that the Danish data proved that thimerosal does not cause autism. These Danish studies would then form the basis for a NEW IOM, initiated by CDC, that in 2004 would declare that the thimerosal-autism hypothesis was without merit, and has since been referenced as "proof" that thimerosal is safe. It all started with Dr. Diane Simpson's trip to Denmark. We even found a copy of her travel voucher."

http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter4.html

Lots of interesting FOI e-mails from these low-lifes at this site.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

187. Ok so the only reliable studies are the ones the support your argument.

Despite the fact it was found on a site that Molly referenced. I noticed that the link you wanted us to look at referenced Geier, I suppose that's a credible study.

David

[cureautismnow]

196. Did you even read the particular article that Molly referenced?

The site provided the other flawed Danish study (which was clearly manufactured by the Bush Administration, according to the FOI e-mails) for the sake of completeness. Molly wanted you to read the extensive Peru paper. Here is an excerpt:

An Fac Med Lima, 2006; 67(3).

Thimerosal and Children’s Neurodevelopmental Disorders
Luis Maya MD, Flora Luna MD.
Medicine Faculty of San Fernando.
Mayor National University of San Marcos.
Lima, Peru.

"The first (and unfortunately only) large official study conducted by the U.S.
CDC in more than 70 years of the history of vaccinations, was conducted by T.
Verstraeten and colleagues, using the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), the largest
registry of data related to the health and immunizations in the U.S. (72) The investigation
was begun in 1997, with its initial results presented 3 years later in a confidential form,
in June of 2000, in Simpsonwood, Georgia. In accordance with the transcripts obtained
thanks to an application requested under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act, (83) only
52 people attended that conference: authorities from the WHO, the U.S. CDC and the
U.S. FDA, experts in vaccination at the time, and representatives of the four companies
that manufactured vaccines in the U.S. (GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Wyeth and Aventis
Pasteur). Those results were never officially published. Nevertheless, according to the
transcripts of the conference, the authors found a statistically significant causal
relationship between mercury exposures contained in vaccines at three months of age,
as much with autism as with attention deficit syndrome, among other child development
disorders. The CDC decided to keep this information confidential and ordered the
authors to continue working with the data from the VSD. After three more years and
after multiple changes in the design and methodology of the study, the results were
eventually published in the journal Pediatrics, official organ of the AAP, changing its
initial conclusions and rejecting a causal relationship.

The publication of this study has received the most number of criticisms and
suspicions of lack of independence by different American organizations involved in the
fight against autism, and the autism community in general, in the U.S. Curiously, the
principal author of the investigation (Verstraeten) was hired by one of the above-cited
North American pharmaceutical companies, well before the final publication of his
investigation, and was taken outside of the U.S., to Belgium. In addition, in a letter to
the editor, which appeared in Pediatrics one year after the publication of his study (84),
Verstraeten contradicted the conclusions of his own study; affirming, in reality, his
study eventually concluded in a neutral result, that is, that he could not accept but
neither could he reject the causal association.

Since 2000, the U.S. CDC had encrypted the data from the VSD, restricting its
analysis by independent investigators. It required the intervention of a committee of the
U.S. House of Representatives (16) to permit for the first time access to that database to
investigators who had no conflicting relationship with any North American federal
office or with pharmaceutical companies. That occurred in a limited form in 2004 and a
few months later, the resulting study was published. The investigation concludes that
exposure to Hg, through vaccines containing thimerosal administered in the U.S., was a
significant risk factor for the appearance of neurodevelopmental disorders. (71)"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swiftboating the Geiers won't make injecting Hg into an infant's body any more palatable, KKKarl.

[cureautismnow]

198. Dr. Simpson could play the CDC role of Dick Cheney.

Dr. V's initial epi. study, with the largest sample ever used, suggested that thimerosal was indeed, a possible suspect in the rise of autism. This was unacceptable. Dr. S's policy was that there must be no link. Evidence must be cherry-picked or even culled from any dubious foreign sources to support the policy. "Should we find that any other country has good data on both autism and vaccines, we will work to get that data on a case by case basis. i.e., I don't know what we are going to do and don't want to think about it right now- but we will do something." - Dr. Simpson

These e-mails serve as the CDC's Downing Street memos. SSI plays the role of Curveball.

More info from the Put Children First site concerning Dr. Simpson's desire to make the evidence fit her policy:

"Dr. Simpson was an interesting choice to lead this initiative. She was oblivious to the full-blown epidemic of autism, as this email, on June 8, 2001 shows:
"I have seen statements claiming huge increases in the incidence rate of autism in the US over the past 10-15 years. The only data I have seen from California. Are there national estimates for autism in the US or is everything extrapolated from the California data?"
Nonetheless, Dr. Simpson began her search, as introductory emails to California, Sweden, Belgium, and Denmark show. Dr. Simpson's goal, through her emails, was very clear: exonerate thimerosal. Not all of Dr. Simpson's correspondence was well received, and in fact some of it was quite comical. A Swedish Doctor, Dr. Marta Granstrom, responded in this email to Dr. Simpson with a clear point of view on thimerosal:
"I am very well aware of the recent concerns in the US over thiomersal (an alternative name for thimerosal). On the expert committee of the European Pharmacopoeae I represent Sweden and had in vain tried to get Europe to ban its use in single dose vials until the US interest in the issue...I thanked Neal Halsey in the name of European infants for the help when I met him again last year."

[cureautismnow]

203. Eli Lilly's take on Thimerosal.

Look at what the makers of this poison have to say:

"Thimerosal contains 49.6% w/w organically-bound mercury. ...

Exposure Guidelines: Thimerosal - No known occupational exposure limits established. ...

Effects of Overexposure: Topical allergic dermatitis has been reported. Thimerosal contains
mercury. Mercury poisoning may occur and topical hypersensitivity reactions may be seen. Early signs
of mercury poisoning in adults are nervous system effects, including narrowing of the visual field and
numbness in the extremities. Exposure to mercury in utero and in children may cause mild to severe
mental retardation and mild to severe motor coordination impairment.

Ingestion: Call a physician or poison control center. Drink one or two glasses of water and give 1-2
tablespoons syrup of ipecac to induce vomiting. Do not induce vomiting or give anything by mouth to an
unconscious person. Use of chelating agents such as BAL may be needed to treat ingestion of
mercury. Immediately transport to a medical care facility and see a physician."

www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/1.13.pdf

[varkam]

241. You do realize that you're posing stuff from '99, right?

You do further realize that autistic children have been killed as a result of chelation therapy, right?

[cureautismnow]

243. Of course. You have evidence that Eli Lilly's Position has changed?

Please provide a link. I'd love to read it.

Naturally. In the report below, 3 deaths (2 children) were mentioned due to IV chelation. In the first 2, the wrong chelating agent was used. In the 3rd, a 53-year-old-woman's COD was undetermined at the time.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5508a3.htm

[varkam]

244. I don't know. I'm not an Eli Lilly spokesperson, despite what you may think.

Again, that's about 10 years old. There has been research since.

[cureautismnow]

245. It's a Material Safety Data Sheet.

You do know what that is, correct?

If you have "research" demonstrating that this MSDS (covering a product originally developed in the 1930s), has changed in the last 8 to 9 years, then by all means, please post.

[varkam]

247. And again, it's ten years old.

From the IVS:

Guidelines for mercury exposure
The Environmental Protection Agency, the FDA, The ATSDR, and the World Health Organization have developed guidelines for mercury exposure. These guidelines were written with the assumption that children will be exposed to low levels of mercury over a long period of time so that the concentration in the body builds up to steady-state level over time. The agencies responsible for the guidelines need to independently determine if the exposures from vaccines exceed this level and how these exposures should be counted.
At this time the IVS is not aware of any evidence that the amount of thimerosal in the vaccines has caused any harm except for mild allergic reactions. Nevertheless, we should reduce any potential risk however small.

Also, studies have recently been conducted that have shown that the half-life of ethylmercury is substantially shorter than methylmercury (which is what the EPA guidelines are based on). There is evidence though that it might stock in the brain, but of course chelation therapy really wouldn't do much for that. Nontheless, the concentration of mercury in doses of vaccines containing thimerosal is extremely small. If you're really interested, check out this study as well as the references:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

Oh, and here's what Mayo has to say on chelation, though I'm sure they're all shills since they're not agreeing with you:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism-treatment/AN01488

[cureautismnow]

250. Lots of more recent MSDS's at the links below.

http://www.autismfacts.com/services.php?page_id=183

http://www.nomercury.org/msds.htm

The common denominator is that thimerosal IS VERY TOXIC. They don't put the skull and crossbones on thimerosal bottles for Halloween or Pirate-themed activities, you know. It falls under California prop.65: This product contains the following ingredients for which the state of California has found to cause cancer, birth defects and other reproductive harm, which would require a warning under the statute: Thimerosal. The MSDS's say AVOID CONTACT! Severe poisoning may result in permanent central nervous system damage, coma, and death. I'm sure that you are aware that the FDA in the 70's took topical thimerosal applications off the shelves because of the dangers. Yet, shooting this poison INSIDE kids in 2008 is okay by you?! It's a preservative for crying out loud! It can be removed sans compromising the "effectiveness" of the vaccine. It's merely there to SAVE MONEY.

Oh, and here's what Mayo has to say on chelation, though I'm sure they're all shills since they're not agreeing with you:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism-treatment/AN014...

Yes, I'm sure the parents of recovered (through biomedical means, including chelation) ASD children are soooooo sorry that they didn't follow Mayo's advice. It is nice to know that you acknowledge that mercury CAN remain in the brain. Help me out here, though. Mercury in the brain is a good thing? Oh, and yes, there ARE chelators that do cross the BBB.

http://www.generationrescue.com/testimonials.php

[varkam]

267. You offer testimonials as scientific evidence?

Surely you understand that anecdotal evidence does not make for good support for a claim as to whether or not a specific treatment works.

Also, those links that you offer are saying that toxic effects start appearing at 50-75mg/kg - which is a does that is orders of magnitude greater than is what is in vaccines.

[cureautismnow]

295. Reports of lung cancer after smoking were anecdotal at first, too.

It required medical mavericks to go out and confirm our suspicions. The CDC/IOM/AAP vaccine establishment won't touch these kids NOW with a 10-foot pole. They hide their heads in the sand because these kids pose a threat to their credibility and livelihood. The Simpsonwood transcripts clearly demonstrate that "no link" was the pre-determined and desired goal - the truth be damned. The maverick researchers who are actually working on case studies of these children are ostracized.

BTW, you snipped twice and never answered my question re Dr. V's research. Specifically, how does Positive + Neutral = Negative? Most of the CDC/IOM's 2004 house of cards is based on the manufactured Danish data and this illogical equation. Care to take a crack at it now?

[varkam]

299. Yeah? Lung cancer has nothing to with this.

You do see the inherent logical fallacy in your reasoning, right? Thanks for the insight into the way you think about this, though: apparently, absence of evidence is proof!


It required medical mavericks to go out and confirm our suspicions. The CDC/IOM/AAP vaccine establishment won't touch these kids NOW with a 10-foot pole. They hide their heads in the sand because these kids pose a threat to their credibility and livelihood. The Simpsonwood transcripts clearly demonstrate that "no link" was the pre-determined and desired goal - the truth be damned. The maverick researchers who are actually working on case studies of these children are ostracized.

Do you have a favorite flavor of kool-aid, or do you just like any kind?

BTW, you snipped twice and never answered my question re Dr. V's research. Specifically, how does Positive + Neutral = Negative? Most of the CDC/IOM's 2004 house of cards is based on the manufactured Danish data and this illogical equation. Care to take a crack at it now?

Actually there's a lot more research than just one Danish study - some of which I've posted.

And no, I don't really care to take a crack at it primarily because (a) I have no clue what the "illogical equation" is that you're babbling about and (b) I really have no interest in debating this matter further with you. It's just going to end up being an even more monumental waste of my time than it already has been.

G'night :hi:

[cureautismnow]

302. It's analogous to a road once traveled.

You do see the inherent logical fallacy in your reasoning, right? Thanks for the insight into the way you think about this, though: apparently, absence of evidence is proof!

Absence of evidence?! There's plenty of evidence for an ASD-Vaccine link presented in this thread. You just choose to ignore it.

Do you have a favorite flavor of kool-aid, or do you just like any kind?

Where were you when Leno and Letterman could have used a scab writer?

Actually there's a lot more research than just one Danish study - some of which I've posted.

Really?

"5. The committee based their conclusions SOLELY on epidemiology: the Danish studies and the CDC's own analysis of the VSD. As Chapter 5 showed, the Danish studies were highly flawed, originated by the CDC, authored by CDC and a Danish vaccine manufacturer employees, and based on a change to the Danish database that any Ninth grade math student could understand. And, by the admission of the author of the CDC's study using their VSD data, a neutral outcome was produced, meaning it should not have contributed in any way to the IOM's conclusion. Denmark was all they had.
6. The IOM was informed that a number of biological studies were awaiting publication, and the IOM rushed their report in ADVANCE of those studies. The IOM refused to review any drafts of biological studies linking vaccines and autism, and rushed their report, relying solely on epidemiology, in advance of biological studies in the next twelve months from scientists at Columbia University, University of Arkansas, Northeastern University, Johns Hopkins University, Harvard University, and the University of Washington."

http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter6.html

"And no, I don't really care to take a crack at it primarily because (a) I have no clue what the "illogical equation" is that you're babbling about"

You know damned well that Dr. V had 2 epi. trials. The first trial indicated a POSITIVE causal relationship between thimerosal and autism. Hence, a link. In the 2nd trial with a much smaller sample-size, he concluded that it was a NEUTRAL outcome - Not positive, not negative. So, the CDC/IOM uses this study as "proof" that a NEGATIVE causal relationship existed between thimerosal and autism. How the hell can they draw THAT insane conclusion? It's preposterous! Dr. V, himself, contradicts that conclusion. He says that more study is needed.

and (b) I really have no interest in debating this matter further with you. It's just going to end up being an even more monumental waste of my time than it already has been."

Likewise.

Adios :hi:

[varkam]

311. Ug.

Absence of evidence?! There's plenty of evidence for an ASD-Vaccine link presented in this thread. You just choose to ignore it.

We were talking about the efficacy of chelation therapy in treating autism.

Seeing as how you seem to be living in the late 90's early 00's, I'll inform you that there have been dozens of studies performed to look at a link between asd and vaccines since then: no link has been found. Of course, I know you just ignore that research - which is why this is pointless. I could cite ten year old research that would "prove" all sorts of things that we know now are false (thanks to research done since then).

[cureautismnow]

321. Dozens? You have more than 12 studies disproving a link since 2004?

Seeing as how you seem to be living in the late 90's early 00's, I'll inform you that there have been dozens of studies performed to look at a link between asd and vaccines since then: no link has been found. Of course, I know you just ignore that research - which is why this is pointless. I could cite ten year old research that would "prove" all sorts of things that we know now are false (thanks to research done since then).

Then, by all means, list 13 distinct, not overlapping, ones below. And no, reviews don't count, especially ones that cite Denmark and Dr. V's study. The CDC/IOM's outrageous conclusion was 2004, not late 90s. In 2004, they had only Denmark. Just 4 years later, you now claim there are at least 13. The CDC manufacturing data department must have sure been busy! Bush should have re-deployed these hacks to Iraq to plant some WMDs for him. :rofl:

and (b) I really have no interest in debating this matter further with you. It's just going to end up being an even more monumental waste of my time than it already has been."

Your inability to tell the truth manifests itself once more...

[varkam]

325. Yup. Sure are.

And I've provided the links. Feel free to go have a look at them - I'm sure you won't.

:rofl:

[cureautismnow]

328. Where? I read one. And it was a REVIEW. That's not "proof."

There were 4 links in one of your posts that ended up getting killed by the mods before I could peruse them. Repost those and 9 more. I'm sure you won't.

BTW, you said you were finished arguing with me. Why do you keep lying? Your clandestine conflict of interest must really have you by the balls.

:rofl:

[varkam]

329. I really find it amusing that...

you are so arrogant to think that people who disagree with you must have a conflict of interest, as you obviously have a mastery of the scientific concepts at play (:sarcasm:, btw).

A meta-analysis is not good data? Well, Mr. Scientist, please explain why a meta-analysis of a dozen studies is not persuasive evidence for you. Feel free to check out the references for citations.

And yes, I did say I was done arguing with you, though it turns out I have more free time than I thought I was going to have (the evul pharma corp didn't need me today).

[cureautismnow]

331. Ha, I knew you couldn't. eom

:rofl:

[varkam]

335. They're all there in the references of the study I pointed you to.

:shrug:

[cureautismnow]

336. No they're not and they only reviewed up to 2004.

"Methods. Articles for analysis were identified in the National Library of Medicine's Medline database using a PubMed search of the English-language literature for articles published between 1966 and 2004."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

2004 is the year that the CDC/IOM lied. ALL they had was the manufactured Danish study for their bogus conclusion.

In your "review," they list 10 epi. studies in this time period up to 2004. 4 are from the Geiers, which disprove the reviewers' biased conclusions - so they throw those out. 3 studies for no link are from Denmark where the CDC's manufactured data was cooked up. One study listed as for a link is Dr. V's research, which he himself says was neutral. That leaves 2 UK studies from 1988 to 1997 and the other from 1991-1992.

Who's living in the '90s now?!!

Still, waiting patiently for "dozens" of studies since 2004 ...

:rofl:

[varkam]

337. They didn't toss the Geier studies because they disagreed.

They tossed them because of serious methodological flaws. Given that your such an astute scientist yourself, I'm sure you understand.

Here's a link to IVS on Thimerosal, since you seem so full of curiosity and are genuinely interested in finding out the truth about this subject. They link to several other studies here:

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-thim.htm

Also, there is a companion study to the NDD/Mg study last year (the one that Sallie Bernard helped design) that examines the role of vaccines in autism specifically. I know I'll be waiting with bated breath for what is has to say.

How many well-controlled epidemiological studies do you have that show a link?

[cureautismnow]

338. Geier forced a corrigendum from these lying hacks.

"To the Editor.—

In our article "Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data,"1 we indicated that Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Biological Surveillance Summaries with manufacturer-specific data would not have been available to Dr Geier to analyze children potentially exposed to thimerosal in the diphtheria-tetanus- acellular pertussis vaccine. Dr Geier has informed us that he had received these data; we regret this error.

More than half of pediatric vaccines used in the United States are purchased by the public sector. Since 1962, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has collected brand-specific information on annual vaccine doses distributed by manufacturers for planning purposes. At the manufacturers' request, these data are kept confidential because they consider this information to be proprietary. Our statement was based on this policy. We were not aware that these data had been released before publication of our article."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/1/200

:rofl:

I'll take a look at the other one later...

It had better be good, for your sake. So far, you've shown ZERO ACTUAL studies since 2004. You're still quite a distance away from reaching the magic number of 13.

Aloha. :hi:

[varkam]

339. That's a fairly minor point. It has nothing to do with this:

As in the first Geier and Geier article, []bcompleteness in reporting, diagnostic specificity and validation, and potential diagnostic and reporting bias cannot be evaluated properly in these 2 studies,30,31 particularly for the study that included data through 2001.31 In addition, the authors did not present methods on how the ethylmercury exposure estimates of 37.5 µg and 87.5 µg were determined. Because VAERS reports do not include a child's entire immunization history and because vaccines that are reported to have been received before an AE are not verified by medical record review, estimated ethylmercury exposure from the reported vaccination visit may be inaccurate and total previous exposure would not be possible to estimate.

It had better be good, for your sake. So far, you've shown ZERO ACTUAL studies since 2004. You're still quite a distance away from reaching the magic number of 13.

Move the goals, much? Where did I post there have been dozens of studies since 2004?

And what're you gonna do if it isn't good? Call me more names? :rofl:

For the record, I don't know if there have been dozens, but I know that there have been several. There I go with my pathological lying again :rofl:

Of course, where are your studies? Do you even have a few?

[cureautismnow]

340. I see. Your hyperbole of "dozens" is now downsized to "several."

BTW, Parker et al blew their own credibility by posting false information. They were called out and forced to correct their lies. It's just as well since they only had the CDC/IOM phony Danish "study" to back up their erroneous conclusion of no link, anyway.

This is what you said, "Seeing as how you seem to be living in the late 90's early 00's, I'll inform you that there have been dozens of studies performed to look at a link between asd and vaccines since then: no link has been found." In 2004, the CDC/IOM only had Denmark and made their false assertion of no link. Surely, the CDC/IOM would have used another credible study, if they had the goods by 2004. They didn't. Simpson was willing to go anywhere to "find" her data. "Should we find that any other country has good data on both autism and vaccines, we will work to get that data on a case by case basis. i.e., I don't know what we are going to do and don't want to think about it right now- but we will do something."

Let's look at your John Hopkins link now to see if we can find more than 2 since then to get you to "several"...

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-thim.htm

The bottom 18 links can be discarded. They're not after 2004 and they are mostly press release FYI articles. Working my way up, I see the first 2005 link: "A new Influenza vaccine will be available for the 2005/6 Flu Season." The link to the press release is broken, but the link to the former Aventis Pasteur web site is still up. Nice. But hardly "proof" of no asd-thimerosal link.

Next up, the Burbacher study in 2005. It showed, "precise thresholds for ethylmercury toxicity have not been fully studied, and methylmercury is a poor surrogate for studying the toxicity of thiomersal." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy
I believe Molly even cited this paper. It doesn't provide proof of no link between asd and thimerosal.

Moving along ...

"Table showing Thimerosal Content in Some US Licensed Vaccines link - updated October 2006." It's damning information that shows thimerosal in vaccines as of 2006 and no proof for your negative association assertion.

Up next, a "study" by Fombonne - the man with a HUUUUUUUUGE conflict of interest. He gets paid to argue the Bush administration's case for no link in Vaccine Court. Not exactly an unbiased source. His 2006 paper talks about data from the 1990s in Canada. Not relevant here in the USA. Here's a link to a rebuttal of Dr. Funnybone's work, http://www.vaproject.org/yazbak/tale-of-two-cities-20070307.htm

Next, "Findings from a CDC publishes followup study of thimerosal exposure and neurodevelopmental delay have been published in a NEJM article by Thompson et al" from 2007. Well, this study is absolutely worthless. They plainly state, "We did not assess autism-spectrum disorders." Kind of hard to draw conclusions about ASD kids when you don't even include them in your study.

Lastly, we have a broken link to the recent California study. You do realize this study is pointless, too. Thimerosal was not taken completely out of vaccines BY LAW in California until December 2006. "Not until Governor Schwarzenegger of California mandated the preservative be removed from childhood vaccines in December 2006 under penalty of law did the real recall begin, says Rollens."

"It will not be clear what impact California's law banning mercury in vaccines has had on the rate of new cases of autism until at least 2009-2010 and later.”

http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/parents-say-california-autism-study-is-flawed.aspx?googleid=29202

That's it for your John Hopkins web site that "proves no ASD-thimerosal link." It's funny that you linked JH, who used to employ Mr. Geier.

The disclaimer is a hoot, too.

"Disclaimer

All health and health-related information contained within the Institute for Vaccine Safety web site is intended to be general in nature and should not be used as a substitute for a visit with a health care professional. The advice is intended to offer only a general basis for individuals to discuss their medical condition with their health care provider. Your health care provider should be consulted regarding matters concerning the medical condition, treatment and needs of you and your family.

Please note that some pages within this web site, for the convenience of users, are linked to web sites not managed by IVS. We do not review, control or take responsibility for the content of these web sites.

Links from this web site to non-IVS web sites are provided for information only and do no constitute endorsement, expressed or implied, by IVS. Although IVS believes the sites to be credible sources of information, IVS has not participated in the development of those other sites and does not exert any editorial or other control over those sites; therefore, IVS takes no responsibility for the content or information contained on those sites.

IVS makes every reasonable effort to ensure that all information on this website is accurate and timely, but it makes no representations or warranties whatsoever about such information or the website generally."

As of 4/8/08, you still have cited ZERO credible studies since 2004 that provide proof of a disassociation between thimerosal and ASD.

:rofl:

[varkam]

345. And you have cited zero credible studies, period.

BTW, Parker et al blew their own credibility by posting false information. They were called out and forced to correct their lies. It's just as well since they only had the CDC/IOM phony Danish "study" to back up their erroneous conclusion of no link, anyway.

Maybe on your planet, but on planet Earth given that the "lie" was so minor in nature, I hardly see how they "blew their credibility", but whatever.

Next up, the Burbacher study in 2005. It showed, "precise thresholds for ethylmercury toxicity have not been fully studied, and methylmercury is a poor surrogate for studying the toxicity of thiomersal." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy
I believe Molly even cited this paper. It doesn't provide proof of no link between asd and thimerosal.

No, it doesn't. That website is an information portal for people interested in thimerosal - the include all sorts of information.

By the way, since you seem be lacking a bit on logic I'll 'splain something to you: you can't disprove a negative. Expecting that it be proven that there is no connection between x and y is logically impossible. The burden of proof rests with the person making the claim - so far I haven't seen anything from you except hot air and rofl smileys, but again I guess that's all you can do when you can't make any claims of your own. But see, that's really the problem here: for you, it isn't about science or data. You've already accepted the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism, you already believe. That being the case, no amount of research or data will change your mind, as you already know the truth. It wouldn't matter if I posted ten studies, or one hundred, or one thousand - you would simply say that they all have zero credibility or that the studies are bogus. You might disagree, but it's exactly what the mercury-militia has been doing.

Up next, a "study" by Fombonne - the man with a HUUUUUUUUGE conflict of interest. He gets paid to argue the Bush administration's case for no link in Vaccine Court. Not exactly an unbiased source. His 2006 paper talks about data from the 1990s in Canada. Not relevant here in the USA. Here's a link to a rebuttal of Dr. Funnybone's work, http://www.vaproject.org/yazbak/tale-of-two-cities-2007...

Again, I note how interesting it is that conflicts of interest are no problem whatsoever whenever the person in question is saying what you want them to say, but all of a sudden it automatically discredits whatever research is performed when it doesn't support your agenda. How very predictable. I mean, if conflicts of interest automatically discredit whatever anyone has to say, then why should I listen to you since you also have an enormous conflict of interest?

That letter to the editor was never published as (gasp!) he's a hack. Notice that he also as a conflict of interest - but I know that doesn't deter you from relying upon his misinformation.

Next, "Findings from a CDC publishes followup study of thimerosal exposure and neurodevelopmental delay have been published in a NEJM article by Thompson et al" from 2007. Well, this study is absolutely worthless. They plainly state, "We did not assess autism-spectrum disorders." Kind of hard to draw conclusions about ASD kids when you don't even include them in your study.

As I'm sure you remember me writing, that is a sister study to another due out this year that will assess ASDs. Of note, though, this study included the well-known ideologue Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds in the design process. Of course, when the data failed to support her beliefs, she demanded that her name be withdrawn from the study.

Lastly, we have a broken link to the recent California study. You do realize this study is pointless, too. Thimerosal was not taken completely out of vaccines BY LAW in California until December 2006. "Not until Governor Schwarzenegger of California mandated the preservative be removed from childhood vaccines in December 2006 under penalty of law did the real recall begin, says Rollens."

I know this doesn't matter to you, but it was removed from required vaccinations. The flu shot is not a required vaccination. The study examined all vaccines - if thimerosal was removed from all required vaccinations (albeit not from flu vaccines), then there should of been a decrease. I'm assuming that you did read that link you sent me to which noted that there was a shortfall in mercury-free flu vaccines (which, again, is not a required vaccination). But, as I said, I know that doesn't matter to you. It's like telling a fundie that radiological dating places the Earth's age at well over 6,000 years - it just doesn't matter.

I'm not sure why you find that disclaimer so hilarious. Perhaps teh mercury is affecting your sense of humor:shrug:

[cureautismnow]

346. The burden falls on the CDC to prove their case.

They work for all Americans and it is their responsibility and duty to insure that the vaccine program is safe. The mere existence of a NVIC program demonstrates that they are NOT doing their jobs. They only had the specious Danish study to back up their ridiculous claim in 2004. The LONE American study proved to be inconclusive. The author of the study, Dr. V., said more study is needed.

"Because the findings of the first phase were not replicated in the second phase, the perception of the study changed from a positive to a neutral study. Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative by many, including the anti vaccine lobbyists. The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come. Does a neutral outcome reduce the value of a study? It may make it less attractive to publishers and certainly to the press, but it in no way diminishes its scientific and public health merit. A neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association, and therefore more study is required. The CDC has taken its responsibility and is currently undertaking such additional study. The focus of all attention now should be on ensuring that these new studies are conducted under the most optimal conditions. Continuing the debate of the validity of the screening study is a waste of scientific energy and not to the benefit of the safety of US children or of all children worldwide that have the privilege of being vaccinated. All the discussion on how and why the results presented at different stages of the study may have changed slightly is futile for the same reason. The bottom line is and has always been the same: an association between thimerosal and neurological outcomes could neither be confirmed nor refuted, and therefore, more study is required."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/932

Nevertheless, the CDC/IOM said stop looking at thimerosal. Pretty please. And that's were we stand in 2008. Other than the seriously flawed California study (which did not account for non-Californians moving to the state to obtain autism covered therapies unavailable elsewhere and the mere fact that January 2007 would have been the most likely time that ALL NEWBORNS would NOT be exposed to thimerosal BY LAW) and the Geiers, there are NO new American studies specifically looking for a possible link between thimerosal and asd. Thompson et al did not examine asd kids. Period.

BTW, (in the other 49 states) there are "traces" of thimerosal still in the REQUIRED vaccines.

Interestingly (in an angry way), the HepB shot, Energix, wasn't even approved for a "thimerosal-free" formula until 1/30/2007.

http://www.fda.gov/Cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1

The non-required flu and tetanus shots are still RECOMMENDED by ignorant pediatricians. WHY? Why is the poison mercury still in ANY vaccines?

In 1999, the AAP said:

Nevertheless, because any potential risk is of concern, the Public Health Service, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agree that thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed as soon as possible. Similar conclusions were reached this year in a meeting attended by European regulatory agencies, the European vaccine manufacturers, and the US FDA which examined the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines produced or sold in European countries."
- Joint Statement of The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Public Health Service (FDA & CDC), July 7, 1999, 4:15pm

8+ years later and the poison, thimerosal is STILL in vaccines administered to babies? WHY? :shrug:

[varkam]

347. It's basic logic, bud.

Sure it's the job of the CDC and the FDA to ensure that various medicines are safe, but that's not on point. Anti-vaxxers make the claim that thimerosal causes autism - but they haven't been able to satisfy the burden of proof, especially not since research on the subject doesn't turn up anything. FYI, according to WebMD there have been 14 studies on the topic involving millions of children - all of them came up nil for the anti-vaxxers. So far as studies that support the anti-vaxxer claim, you have Wakefield and Geier. Wakefield's study was retracted from Lancet, and he is now probably going to have his medical license revoked. Geier's studies included numerous critical flaws (see here), an ignorance of how to analyze the data, not to mention his own conflicts of interest. So far, it's not looking too good.

Nevertheless, the CDC/IOM said stop looking at thimerosal. Pretty please. And that's were we stand in 2008. Other than the seriously flawed California study (which did not account for non-Californians moving to the state to obtain autism covered therapies unavailable elsewhere and the mere fact that January 2007 would have been the most likely time that ALL NEWBORNS would NOT be exposed to thimerosal BY LAW) and the Geiers, there are NO new American studies specifically looking for a possible link between thimerosal and asd. Thompson et al did not examine asd kids. Period.

Oh, so now it's flawed because of people moving to California for autism treatment? And, again, thimerosal was only present in trace amounts in the flu vaccine - which is not a required vaccination. There actually is new research, as I've mentioned multiple times to you now, due out this year that is a companion study to Thompson et al that looks at asd and vaccines. Want to bet what they're going to find? There are also other studies underway, but the issue is fast approaching being done to death.

The non-required flu and tetanus shots are still RECOMMENDED by ignorant pediatricians. WHY? Why is the poison mercury still in ANY vaccines?

Yes, those stupid pediatricians with all their fancy book learning and silly white coats. What do they know about medicine? Perhaps you should educate them with your Google-fu.

8+ years later and the poison, thimerosal is STILL in vaccines administered to babies? WHY?

Oh, teh poison!!1! As I'm sure you know (or perhaps you don't), the dose makes the poison. You would think that if thimerosal has been removed (or is only present in trace amounts) that autism rates would decrease. Have autism rates been declining?

[cureautismnow]

348. You fail basic logic, (insert your favorite patronizing term of endearment).

Sure it's the job of the CDC and the FDA to ensure that various medicines are safe, but that's not on point. Anti-vaxxers make the claim that thimerosal causes autism - but they haven't been able to satisfy the burden of proof, especially not since research on the subject doesn't turn up anything. FYI, according to WebMD there have been 14 studies on the topic involving millions of children - all of them came up nil for the anti-vaxxers. So far as studies that support the anti-vaxxer claim, you have Wakefield and Geier. Wakefield's study was retracted from Lancet, and he is now probably going to have his medical license revoked. Geier's studies included numerous critical flaws (see here), an ignorance of how to analyze the data, not to mention his own conflicts of interest. So far, it's not looking too good.

Again, the CDC made the claim that there was no link and THEY couldn't prove it. It's their job to back up their 2004 assertion. They didn't. Their point man, Dr. V. even said more study is needed. Yet, they closed the door because of the repercussions. 14 studies? Do you just randomly pull numbers out of a hat? First, there were "dozens," then "several," and now we are back up to 14. Amazing. Well, just maybe, your third time will be a charm. I'll leave space below for you to list all 14.
















Oh, so now it's flawed because of people moving to California for autism treatment? And, again, thimerosal was only present in trace amounts in the flu vaccine - which is not a required vaccination. There actually is new research, as I've mentioned multiple times to you now, due out this year that is a companion study to Thompson et al that looks at asd and vaccines. Want to bet what they're going to find? There are also other studies underway, but the issue is fast approaching being done to death.

Again, you are wrong. As of March 14, 2008, there are several vaccines with not-so-just traces of mercury in them. Look at the chart in Table 3. DT has 25 µg/0.5 mL dose. TD has 8.3 µg/0.5 mL dose. TT has 25 µg/0.5 mL dose. 3 flu shots have 25 µg/0.5 mL dose.

http://www.fda.gov/Cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1

You still haven't answered the question - why is mercury still in vaccines in 2008?

Thompson et al had better look at asd kids THIS TIME around if they have any hope of regaining a semblance of credibility. I'm sure they could receive pointers from Dr. V about how to cherry-pick their data to reach their predetermined conclusion. Naturally, they'll have to manipulate the data much harder though to get beyond the neutral result.

Yes, those stupid pediatricians with all their fancy book learning and silly white coats. What do they know about medicine? Perhaps you should educate them with your Google-fu.

Yes, I hope they do receive a common sense epiphany that shooting a poison into a child is NOT a good idea.

Oh, teh poison!!1! As I'm sure you know (or perhaps you don't), the dose makes the poison. You would think that if thimerosal has been removed (or is only present in trace amounts) that autism rates would decrease. Have autism rates been declining?

The "trace amounts" argument is nonsense. Poison is poison. Why put it into kids if it's not necessary. WHY, WHY, WHY...?

"When you get the reporters and vaccine manufacturers to admit that they’re using mercury, they will often use the term “trace amounts.” How much thimerosal in a vaccine is a trace amount? "A common myth is that thimerosal is added to vaccines in 'trace' amounts," says Mike Wagnitz, a senior chemist at the University of Wisconsin, "The concentration of mercury in a multi-dose flu vaccine vial is 50,000 parts per billion. To put this in perspective, drinking water cannot exceed 2 parts per billion of mercury, and waste is considered hazardous if it has only 200 parts per billion. Is it really safe then to inject pregnant women, newborns, and infants with levels of mercury 250 times higher than what is legally classified as hazardous waste?"

There is also no mention of the quick and devastating counter to this report put out by the The National Autism Association (NAA), which is pointing out flaws in the study in a press release, and “believes the authors used data too narrowly to make such sweeping conclusions.” The authors are overlooking “a number of confounding factors.”

"To make such sweeping conclusions regarding thimerosal, all mercury and aluminum would have to have been removed from vaccines and recalled immediately, including pre- and post-natal flu shots," says NAA board chair Claire Bothwell. The NAA press release goes on to state, “..Increasing pressure upon pregnant women and young children to receive annual flu shots has further muddied the waters in determining vaccine mercury exposure levels in recent years. Most flu shots still contain 25 micrograms of mercury, an amount the Environmental Protection Agency considers safe only for adults weighing over 550 lbs.“

http://nationalwriterssyndicate.com/content/view/341/2/

[varkam]

349. .

Again, the CDC made the claim that there was no link and THEY couldn't prove it. It's their job to back up their 2004 assertion. They didn't. Their point man, Dr. V. even said more study is needed. Yet, they closed the door because of the repercussions. 14 studies? Do you just randomly pull numbers out of a hat? First, there were "dozens," then "several," and now we are back up to 14. Amazing. Well, just maybe, your third time will be a charm. I'll leave space below for you to list all 14.

I believe I wrote that number came from WebMD.

Your post reflects a vast ignorance of what science is and how hypothesis testing works. I would try to explain it to you...again...but I have no reason to believe that the second go-round would yield any more positive results than the first time.

Gah - and that article you posted is garbage. A woo linking to other woo does not make for a convincing source. Funny that the FDA seems to contradict the anonymous poster you linked to: http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#tox.

[cureautismnow]

350. "." Is that your response as to why Mercury is STILL in Shots for Children?

I believe I wrote that number came from WebMD.

I believe WebMd probably has several hundred or thousand references to asd and/or thimerosal. Where exactly are the 14 that you are trying to say support your position? I hope you're not going to continue to waste my time and point me to the Danish Study, the "review", the Parker nonsense, the Dr. V neutral study, or the early 90s UK gibberish, etc.? You do realize that non-U.S. studies are pointless anyway due to the variations in specific vaccines administered, vaccine schedules, dosages, etc.? Dr. V's U.S. data of several hundred thousand American kids is still available for research. Why is it locked away with a private entity?

Gah - and that article you posted is garbage. A woo linking to other woo does not make for a convincing source. Funny that the FDA seems to contradict the anonymous poster you linked to: http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#tox.

Where does it contradict it? Actually, it contradicts itself. On the one hand, the CDC says "Much progress has been made to date in removing or reducing thimerosal in vaccines. New pediatric formulations of hepatitis B vaccines have been licensed by the FDA, Recombivax-HB (Merck, thimerosal free) in August 1999 and Engerix-B (Glaxo SmithKline, thimerosal free) in January 2007." Engerix was LICENSED to be thimerosal free in 2007. Yet, Table 3 shows < 0.5 µg/0.5 mL dose as of last month. That's NOT thimerosal free.

BTW, do YOU have over 20 years of experience working with materials for mercury?

"A common myth is that Thimerosal is added to vaccines in 'trace' amounts," said Mike Wagnitz, who has over 20 years experience evaluating materials for mercury and is employed as a senior chemist with the University of Wisconsin."

Of course, I'm sure the psychiatrist/"autism expert," Dr. Fombonne, knows more about heavy metals than he. :sarcasm:

http://www.wisc.edu/directories/results.php?name=MICHAEL%20F%20WAGNITZ&email=[e-mail]

Try again.

[varkam]

351. My, the hysterics!

I believe WebMd probably has several hundred or thousand references to asd and/or thimerosal. Where exactly are the 14 that you are trying to say support your position? I hope you're not going to continue to waste my time and point me to the Danish Study, the "review", the Parker nonsense, the Dr. V neutral study, or the early 90s UK gibberish, etc.? You do realize that non-U.S. studies are pointless anyway due to the variations in specific vaccines administered, vaccine schedules, dosages, etc.? Dr. V's U.S. data of several hundred thousand American kids is still available for research. Why is it locked away with a private entity?

I know this is pointless, but I don't know why I can't stop. Perhaps it's the vaccines that I received as a child. The number "14" came from a WebMD article that I read on autism. You can use your google-fu to find it.

As for why the data is "locked away" - because it's part of a vast conspiracy to infect your child with autism. Obviously.

Where does it contradict it? Actually, it contradicts itself. On the one hand, the CDC says "Much progress has been made to date in removing or reducing thimerosal in vaccines. New pediatric formulations of hepatitis B vaccines have been licensed by the FDA, Recombivax-HB (Merck, thimerosal free) in August 1999 and Engerix-B (Glaxo SmithKline, thimerosal free) in January 2007." Engerix was LICENSED to be thimerosal free in 2007. Yet, Table 3 shows < 0.5 µg/0.5 mL dose as of last month. That's NOT thimerosal free.

BTW, do YOU have over 20 years of experience working with materials for mercury?

Actually, the EPA and FDA found that the levels were safe even based on the recommendations for methylmercury - though the half-life for ethylmercury is much shorter. Though I'm sure that Mike knows more than both the EPA and the FDA than this sort of thing, especially since he's comparing methylmercury with ethylmercury. Surely he knows that there are significant differences in chemical composition between the two.

I have no idea what "working with materials for mercury" means, though I'm sure you don't have 20 years of experience "working with materials for mercury".

W/ respect to Engerix - that dose is also listed as "trace" which means that it is not part of the formula but rather a left-over from the manufacturing process. Cue scary music.

[cureautismnow]

352. I'll ask again then, why is ANY mercury still in vaccines?

As for why the data is "locked away" - because it's part of a vast conspiracy to infect your child with autism. Obviously.

A callous attempt at sarcasm does not answer the question. Why give public data to a private entity to maintain?

Actually, the EPA and FDA found that the levels were safe even based on the recommendations for methylmercury

Really? Cite please.

- though the half-life for ethylmercury is much shorter. Though I'm sure that Mike knows more than both the EPA and the FDA than this sort of thing, especially since he's comparing methylmercury with ethylmercury. Surely he knows that there are significant differences in chemical composition between the two.

Cite for "he's comparing..." or are you just guessing. BTW, which one is the "good" poison, again?

As you know, Burbacher studied e-merc. v. m-merc.:

"These results suggest that ethylmercury is dealkylated much more extensively than methylmercury, producing higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brain. While dealkylation is thought to be a detoxification mechanism that helps protect the central nervous system, previous work by Burbacher and his group has shown that inorganic mercury can affect certain types of cells in the brain such as the microglia. Recent reports have indicated abnormal microglia in the brains of children with autism.

According to the researchers, more research is needed to accurately predict how immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines may affect children. "Knowledge of the biotransformation of thimerosal . . . is urgently needed to afford a meaningful interpretation of the potential developmental effects of immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines in newborns and infants," the study authors write. "This information is critical if we are to respond to public concerns regarding the safety of childhood immunizations."

http://www.ehponline.org/press/042105.html

W/ respect to Engerix - that dose is also listed as "trace" which means that it is not part of the formula but rather a left-over from the manufacturing process. Cue scary music.

"Left-over" in the manufacturing process?! Are you freaking kidding me? Is it in or not in the product? "Thimerosal free" means it still has "left-overs" of thimerosal? Is this like War = Peace? Explain why thimerosal is still around in the plant to begin with. Surely, it's possible for them to mix up Engerix sans ANY thimerosal. No?

[varkam]

353. Oy...

Really? Cite please.

Go to the FDA's page on thimerosal in vaccines.

Cite for "he's comparing..." or are you just guessing. BTW, which one is the "good" poison, again?

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ - it was in the crap that you posted! Marky-Mark made the comparison between mercury in drinking water and mercury in vaccines without noting that the two are totally different. It doesn't surprise me that you don't grasp the differences between ethyl and methylmercury, but it is pretty bad a that freaking chemist doesn't understand them.

"These results suggest that ethylmercury is dealkylated much more extensively than methylmercury, producing higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brain. While dealkylation is thought to be a detoxification mechanism that helps protect the central nervous system, previous work by Burbacher and his group has shown that inorganic mercury can affect certain types of cells in the brain such as the microglia. Recent reports have indicated abnormal microglia in the brains of children with autism.

According to the researchers, more research is needed to accurately predict how immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines may affect children. "Knowledge of the biotransformation of thimerosal . . . is urgently needed to afford a meaningful interpretation of the potential developmental effects of immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines in newborns and infants," the study authors write. "This information is critical if we are to respond to public concerns regarding the safety of childhood immunizations."

Of course more research is needed. I think this sort of basic research should of been done ages ago - why it wasn't is beyond me.

"Left-over" in the manufacturing process?! Are you freaking kidding me? Is it in or not in the product? "Thimerosal free" means it still has "left-overs" of thimerosal? Is this like War = Peace? Explain why thimerosal is still around in the plant to begin with. Surely, it's possible for them to mix up Engerix sans ANY thimerosal. No?

Uh, I don't know - I'm not an expert in the manufacturing of vaccines. I'm sure you can use your Google-fu to find an answer. As for me? I have to work - evul pharma calls...

[cureautismnow]

355. Egad. We actually agree on something.

Of course more research is needed. I think this sort of basic research should of been done ages ago - why it wasn't is beyond me.

I concur 100%.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ - it was in the crap that you posted! Marky-Mark made the comparison between mercury in drinking water and mercury in vaccines without noting that the two are totally different. It doesn't surprise me that you don't grasp the differences between ethyl and methylmercury, but it is pretty bad a that freaking chemist doesn't understand them.

From what I gather, the EPA just assumed that e-mercury and m-mercury were of equal toxicity albeit e-mercury had barely been researched. From Burbacher, we learned that e-mercury (thimerosal) leaves inorganic mercury in the brain. Look what the gov't says to do in case of inorganic mercury poisoning:

"For inorganic mercury poisoning, treatment usually begins with supportive care. The patient may receive:

* Fluids by IV (into a vein)
* Medicines to treat symptoms
* Activated charcoal, a medicine that soaks up many substances from the stomach
* Medicines called chelators to remove mercury from the blood"

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002476.htm

Those wacky governmental chelation-advocate quacks. :sarcasm:

Dr. Burbacher is currently working on something that may finally help solve the puzzle.

"The mercury study's primary investigator is Dr. Thomas Burbacher, a University
of Washington researcher and long-time investigator into the effects of the
toxin. His earlier research found that Thimerosal, best known for its use as
an ethylmercury-based preservative in infant vaccines and pregnancy shots, is
actually more toxic to the brain than methylmercury.

The goal of this particular investigation is to expand the knowledge of a
potential link between neurotoxic exposures and the development of autism,
which will in turn lead to better treatments. ....The second-phase study by Dr. Jay Charleston and Dr. Burbacher will look more
in-depth at brain tissue, and the effects mercury may have on this tissue once
it passes the blood-brain barrier. In his first-phase study, Burbacher
concluded:

-- Ethylmercury is more toxic because it is less stable as a molecule than
methylmercury. Like methylmercury, it gains ready access to the brain across
the blood-brain barrier.
-- Ethylmercury leaves more than double the amount of inorganic mercury
trapped in the brain than does methylmercury.
-- Inorganic mercury trapped in the brain can stay for many years, even a
lifetime.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS136492+04-Mar-2008+PRN20080304

[varkam]

356. There's a mighty big difference between mercury poisioning and autism

Surely you understand that :eyes:

Also, the fact remains that Mikey-Mike was making a direct comparison between two different chemical compounds stands.

Looks like that wasn't written but a reuters staff writer, but rather the NAA. Needless to say, I remain skeptical. Do you have a citation for his earlier study where he concluded that ethylmercury is more toxic than methylmercury - because he didn't seem to claim as much in his most recent publication; only that methylmercury standards may be inappropriate when applied to methylmercury.

Oh, and the mercury is trapped in brain tissues, chelation therapy isn't going to help very much - now is it?

[cureautismnow]

357. There are similarities.

Also, the fact remains that Mikey-Mike was making a direct comparison between two different chemical compounds stands.

Mike knows just as much as the government. Here's what THEY know from the chart linked below:

Methylmercury
Results of continual exposure - can accumulate in the human body
Side effects of exposure - can cause mental retardation, cerebral palsy, and seizures
Period most sensitive to exposure - prenatal

Ethylmercury
Results of continual exposure - not known
Side effects of exposure - not known
Period most sensitive to exposure - not known

Not exactly reassuring that the gov't doesn't know what thimerosal can do to an infant. But, hey, shoot the poison in them for the hell of it. Good sport, you know.

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosal.htm

Looks like that wasn't written but a reuters staff writer, but rather the NAA. Needless to say, I remain skeptical. Do you have a citation for his earlier study where he concluded that ethylmercury is more toxic than methylmercury - because he didn't seem to claim as much in his most recent publication; only that methylmercury standards may be inappropriate when applied to methylmercury.

That was his conclusion in the first phase of his present research. He's working on phase 2 now.

Oh, and the mercury is trapped in brain tissues, chelation therapy isn't going to help very much - now is it?

Sure, it can help. One such chelator that can cross the BBB is ALA. Why does it make you uncomfortable when kids get better?

[varkam]

358. It never ends with you.

"Not known" is not the same thing is "it's teh poizun!!11!"

That was his conclusion in the first phase of his present research. He's working on phase 2 now

DO YOU HAVE A CITATION?

Sure, it can help. One such chelator that can cross the BBB is ALA. Why does it make you uncomfortable when kids get better?

Couple of points: (1) If mercury is trapped in the tissue then removing mercury from the blood is not likely to do jack. (2) There is no scientific evidence that supports the efficacy of chelation therapy in autism (parent testimonials do not pass the smell test).

Oh, and it makes me uncomfortable when children get better because I am the head of a vast conspiracy to infect every child with autism - I thought we'd been over this :crazy:

[cureautismnow]

359. Nor apparently you.

DO YOU HAVE A CITATION?

The Reuters article cited before clearly stated what Dr. Burbacher was currently working on. I can't help it if you can't read and/or comprehend it.

Couple of points: (1) If mercury is trapped in the tissue then removing mercury from the blood is not likely to do jack. (2) There is no scientific evidence that supports the efficacy of chelation therapy in autism (parent testimonials do not pass the smell test).

Nonsense. 1. DMSA, DMPS, and to a lesser extent ALA can remove heavy metals from tissue.

"When compared to pharmaceutical dithiol-chelating agents, ALA appears to be able to bind and mobilize heavy metals from tissue, although with much weaker an effect."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-96416600.html

2. Parents of recovered kids would care that it doesn't pass your smell test HOW exactly ....?!

This does appear to be an exercise in futility, though. You are firmly ensconced in your camp and I in mine. Shall we simply agree to disagree for now? :hi:

[varkam]

362. Again, do you have a citation?

The reuters piece was written by the NAA - so I want an actual citation. It doesn't appear that you have one, though.

2. Parents of recovered kids would care that it doesn't pass your smell test HOW exactly ....?!

Because people are gullible. Placebo effect, confirmation bias, anchoring bias, so on and so forth. That's the whole point behind scientific study - so that we can weed out sources of bias.

[cureautismnow]

363. See below.

http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7712/7712.html

"There was a much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of thimerosal monkeys than in the brains of MeHg monkeys (up to 71% vs. 10%). Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys. Interestingly, the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.

Previous reports have indicated that the dealkylation of Hg is a detoxification process that helps to protect the central nervous system (Magos 2003; Magos et al. 1985). These reports are largely based on histology and histochemistry studies of adult rodents exposed to Hg for a short period of time. The results of these studies indicated that damage to the cerebellum was observed only in MeHg-treated animals that had much lower levels of inorganic Hg in the brain than animals comparably treated with ethylmercury. Moreover, the results did not indicate the presence of inorganic Hg deposits in the area where the cerebellar damage was localized (granular layer).

In contrast, previous studies of adult M. fascicularis monkeys exposed chronically to MeHg have indicated that demethylation of Hg occurs in the brain over a long period of time after MeHg exposure and that this is not a detoxification process (Charleston et al. 1994, 1995, 1996; Vahter et al. 1994, 1995). Results from these studies indicated higher inorganic Hg concentrations in the brain 6 months after MeHg exposure had ended, whereas organic Hg had cleared from the brain. The estimated half-life of organic Hg in the brain of these adult monkeys was consistent across various brain regions at approximately 37 days (similar to the brain half-life in the present infant monkeys). The estimated half-life of inorganic Hg in the brain in the same adult cohort varied greatly across some regions of the brain, from 227 days to 540 days. In other regions, the concentrations of inorganic Hg remained the same (thalamus) or doubled (pituitary) 6 months after exposure to MeHg had ended (Vahter et al. 1994, 1995). Stereologic and autometallographic studies on the brains of these adult monkeys indicated that the persistence of inorganic Hg in the brain was associated with a significant increase in the number of microglia in the brain, whereas the number of astrocytes declined. Notably, these effects were observed 6 months after exposure to MeHg ended, when inorganic Hg concentrations were at their highest levels, or in animals solely exposed to inorganic Hg (Charleston et al. 1994, 1995, 1996). The effects in the adult macaques were associated with brain inorganic Hg levels approximately five times higher than those observed in the present group of infant macaques. The longer-term effects (> 6 months) of inorganic Hg in the brain have not been examined. In addition, whether similar effects are observed at lower levels in the developing brain is not known. It is important to note that “an active neuroinflammatory process” has been demonstrated in brains of autistic patients, including a marked activation of microglia (Vargas et al. 2005)."

[mzmolly]

158. Again,

the links work for me.

[varkam]

170. Link didn't work for me, either.

But I knew what study you were referring to.

[cureautismnow]

144. And you're seeking THAT from the Bush Administration's CDC?!!!!

They're just as trustworthy as the Bush Administration's FAA!

They're just as honest as the Bush Administration's FEMA!

They have the integrity of the Bush Administration's CIA!

They are as wholesome as the Bush Administration's NSA!

They are as righteous as the Bush Administration's State Department!

They have the probity of the Bush Administration's EPA!

The Bush Administration has told 935 documented LIES about the Iraq War!

But we'll believe them this one time because it's "science"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

[earth mom]

215. The shoe most definitely fits.

Didn't quite know where to post this, but I had to say that I love what you've posted on this thread!

I'm your fan-thanks for kicking the b.s. & disinfo to the curb!

:yourock:

[pnwmom]

182. That case is incredibly important. No one has been arguing that thimerosal

or vaccines INEVITABLY lead to autism in EVERY case.

But up till now, the FDA has been denying ANY connection at all. Now, for the first time, they've acknowledged that there are some susceptible individuals who shouldn't be given at least some vaccines.

This is a major step forward. Now they should be funding research to determine who should not be getting which vaccines -- not pretending they are absolutely safe for everybody.

Too bad they didn't do this in time to stop my sister's death from the DTP vaccine. Remember how long it took them to admit there was a problem with that whole cell vaccine? Fifty or sixty years. I understand why they think it is okay to sacrifice people like my sister for the "greater good." But we at least have an obligation to do everything we can to mitigate the damage -- work towards safer vaccines -- and not pretend that no one is being harmed.

[Muttocracy]

122. but wasn't that due to immune response, not thimerosol? nt

[mzmolly]

145. The concession was that vaccination triggered autism. The parents, a neurolgist and an RN

believe it was the mercury, though the ruling avoided a clear distinction.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

151. Wrong again.

They couldn't rule out that the vaccine was a stressor or that the vaccine aggravated another stressor, in one particular child with an underlying condition that by itself often causes autism like symptoms.

David

[mzmolly]

159. YOU'RE wrong

again.

You should read rulings before you comment on them.

ANALYSIS

Medical personnel at the Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation, Department of Health and Human Services (DVIC) have reviewed the facts of this case, as presented by the petition, medical records, and affidavits. After a thorough review, DVIC has concluded that compensation is appropriate in this case.

In sum, DVIC has concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners in accordance with 42 U.S.C. § 300aa-11(c)(1)(C)(ii).

...

Respectfully submitted,

PETER D. KEISLER
Assistant Attorney General

[cureautismnow]

163. Yes, where is the "Could Not Rule Out" part?

It clearly states the vaccinations SIGNIFICANTLY AGGRAVATED her mitochondrial disorder, which led to ASD.

FMD's beloved Bush Administration CONCEDED that her vaccinations were a trigger to ASD. PERIOD.

[mzmolly]

165. Ya got me!

But the "pro-pharma cult" sure is well trained huh? ;)

:hi:

[cureautismnow]

168. You betcha. I wish they'd go ahead and lay their cards on the table.

These mercury pushers need to be truthful with their agendas and their employers. Who is REALLY their proverbial dog in this fight? The kids? Ha, that's a laugh. It's been proven in a few thousand vaccine courts of law that many different vaccines maim or kill some children. Instead of perfecting their products so that NO ONE is harmed, they sweep their apathetic ineptitude under the rug and hope nobody talks about it. As far as I'm concerned, they have innocent blood on their hands.

Me, I fight for my 4-year-old ASD only child who was poisoned by these like-minded bastards with thimerosal-laded Heb B shots at 2 weeks, 2.5 months, and 5.5 months. For "good" measure, he received another dose of flu-shot thimerosal at 18 months. Some joker here posted a "peer-reviewed" article claiming no thimerosal-autism link and mentioning there was no thimerosal in the shots after 2002. That statement was a bald-faced lie. Who were these IGNORANT "peers?" My son's Heb B shots were all administered in 2003. These poisons were NOT recalled. The expiration dates for these non-recalled poisons extended MANY years into the future. It's no wonder the ASD rates keep climbing. These defective products are STILL out there.

Keep fighting for us, M! :hi:

[mzmolly]

179. Thanks DD.

I'm sorry that this hits so close to home for you.

:hug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

184. Sorry I was playing soccer.

The only thing I can find from a non-biased source, says that the mitochondrial disease caused the autism like symptoms and that the vaccines or side effects from the vaccines (fever) may have aggravated the mitochondrial condition. Kind of hard to find unbiased sources on this topic. This is an extremely unique case, much like SIDS a number of factors have to come together at the right time, place circumstances and genetic predisposition for a child to die from SIDS. I'm truly sorry for the people who suffer from ASD and have several members of my family who are severely handicapped. People need to understand though that there always isn't a bad guy, sometimes bad things happen to the best of people.

David

[cureautismnow]

197. Thanks, Molly.

:hug:

[earth mom]

216. Agree with you 100%

Love your posts on this thread too.

:yourock:

[AikidoSoul]

261. The legal system has failed to prevent subcliinical developmental toxicity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18226082?dopt=AbstractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18226082?dopt=AbstractPlus
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2007.00170.x

The legal failure to prevent subclinical developmental toxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Cranor%20C%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlusDrugs1

[varkam]

171. But that doesn't exactly say that vaccines cause autism, now does it?

Be honest.

[mzmolly]

176. It says that vaccines contributed

in this case.

[varkam]

200. It said...

that a preponderance of the evidence supports the conclusion that the vaccine aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder that in turn caused feature of autism. There is a major difference between that and saying that vaccines cause autism. Also, if this course can normally be expected to occur in children with this mitochondrial disorder then you still have to account for 80-90% of other autism cases.

Also, please note that the standard for the burden of proof in civil litigation is substantially lower than what it is in scientific circles. While I do think that this court case sheds light on new questions that need to be asked, it does not mean that vaccines cause autism.

[mzmolly]

213. No one has claimed that vaccines are solely responsible for autism.

Further, this court finding was a supposition based upon the evidence presented in court. The father, a neurologist, said the child did not have a "condition" prior to vaccination. IE the vaccine led to the condition the court claims was aggravated.

The bottom line is that this is not the only child who has had a vaccine trigger autism and if her parents were not medical professionals the court would have denied them as they have others.

Lastly and once again, no one has ever claimed that vaccination was the only avenue to this thing we call autism.

[cureautismnow]

177. Sure it does. Vaccines were the spark that lit the ASD fuse.

If I cut down a tree and it falls on your mailbox, you could technically say that my axe didn't cause the destruction of your mailbox. The tree did. Nevertheless, the axe obviously set in motion the chain of events that led to your mailbox's demise.

They didn't say might have or could have. They said the vaccines SIGNIFICANTLY aggravated her m-disorder, which ultimately led to her ASD condition. They didn't even try to convince the court that vaccines played a superficial role or that she might have exhibited ASD symptoms sans any vaccinations. THEY GAVE UP. The family took the money and ran, since they now have the financial means to provide for their daughter's special needs. I'd have done the same thing. ABA therapy (40 hours/week at $65/hour = $135,200 per year) is not cheap. Let the mercury pushers spin their obvious defeat until they're blue in the face. Just take the money and provide for your child.

BTW, Varkam, enlighten us please. Who's YOUR sugar daddy?

Be honest. :hi:

[varkam]

201. "BTW, Varkam, enlighten us please. Who's YOUR sugar daddy?"

You wouldn't be accusing me of being a shill, would you?

[Name removed]

204. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

195. Right. Just like cigarettes don't cause cancer.

Because not everyone gets lung cancer, right? Only the unlucky ones who are genetically susceptible.

And not every child who gets a vaccine develops autism. Only the unlucky ones with the bad genes.

So who cares about them? Just keep telling us the vaccines are perfectly safe. Those susceptible people just don't count.

:sarcasm:

[varkam]

202. See post above. eom

[pnwmom]

194. If the vaccine "aggravated" another stressor, then it was itself an additional

stressor. What do you think a stressor is?

The fact is, the vaccine court admitted that a vaccine was a factor in this child's developing autism symptoms. This is the first time they have ever conceded this. Now it is time for them to admit that there might be other children for whom vaccines pose an additional risk or stressor or trigger or aggravating factor for autism -- and to identify these children.

And they should start with studying families with Celiac disease and autistic children.

[Muttocracy]

155. then that's belief, not science. nt

[mzmolly]

160. It's not a belief,

it's a conclusion based upon science.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

148. That's not what the court said.

The court determined that Hannah had an underlying mitochondrial condition, that often causes symptoms of autism, that was aggravated by stressors. They could not rule out vaccines or that the vaccines aggravated one of those stressors, so the court decided to pay the family. At no point did the government concede a link, this is a very unique case, and probably not going to set the precedent that you desire.

David

[Muttocracy]

157. that's right

It was an interaction between the immune system and a mitochondrial mutation or mitochondrial metabolic disorder.

[varkam]

172. Exactly.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

180. Nope! Once again -

read the ruling.

[Midlodemocrat]

78. Correct. And saying there is won't make it so.

I have done a lot of work with autistic children and their families as well as researchers at UCONN. There appears to be both a biological and environmental trigger to autism. But the environmental one isn't thimerosal.

[mzmolly]

81. That's a debatable assertion.

There appears to be both a biological and environmental trigger to autism. But the environmental one isn't thimerosal.

If only we could repeat THIS enough times to make it so.

[Midlodemocrat]

82. It's been proven over and over.

It's not the trigger. No one knows what the trigger is, unfortunately, but it's not thimerosal. Latest information I'm getting from my peers is erring more on the biological side ie, and enzyme deficiency.

I wish the trigger could be identified to prevent this from happening, but at this point, blaming thimerosal is a waste of time and doesn't do anything to further the research.

I believe, I could be wrong, though, that most respected scientists have completely given up looking for a thimerosal link. It proved fruitless.

[mzmolly]

105. No it hasn't. It was recently proven in "vaccine court" that vaccines

can trigger autism and have. BTW, no one said that biology doesn't play a role.

[Muttocracy]

123. but again it's the immune response, not the preservative

otherwise wouldn't rate of new autism cases be going down now?

[mzmolly]

131. The immune system also responds to mercury and some feel cases are declining.

The toxic effects of mercury depend on its chemical form and the route of exposure. - It affects the immune system, alters genetic and enzyme systems, and damages the nervous system, including coordination and the senses of touch, taste, and sight. Methylmercury is particularly damaging to developing embryos, which are five to ten times more sensitive than adults.

http://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

152. Who had the vaccine the mother or the child?

[mzmolly]

162. You have to ask?

:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

185. This is what your link says, so yes I have to ask.

People are exposed to methylmercury almost entirely by eating contaminated fish and wildlife that are at the top of aquatic foodchains. The National Research Council, in its 2000 report on the toxicological effects of methylmercury, pointed out that the population at highest risk is the offspring of women who consume large amounts of fish and seafood. The report went on to estimate that more than 60,000 children are born each year at risk for adverse neurodevelopmental effects due to in utero exposure to methylmercury. In its 1997 Mercury Study Report to Congress, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency concluded that mercury also may pose a risk to some adults and wildlife populations that consume large amounts of fish that is contaminated by mercury.

[Muttocracy]

156. Mercury's primary risk is neurotoxicity.

Methylmercury and thimerosol are very different compounds. USGS does not study human toxicology.

One of my relatives works with autistic children and more potential clients than she has time to see, and it's still growing.

[mzmolly]

161. Primary risk, perhaps.

However, an NIH-funded study, conducted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Burbacher">Dr. Thomas Burbacher, a University of Washington researcher, found that Thimerosal, is potentially MORE toxic to the brain than methylmercury.



Differing effects of ethylmercury in thimerosal containing vaccines
In 2005, a study Burbacher conducted confirmed that thimerosal is distributed to the brain much more readily than methylmercury, and he is now working on a follow-up project will examine the effects of the vaccine preservative on primate development. Burbacher's primate studies, funded by the National Institute of Health (NIH), have included comparisons of the effects of injected ethylmercury, the primary active ingredient in thimerosal, to those of orally administered methylmercury on macaques. His research sought to determine whether federal safety limits for methylmercury exposure are a suitable reference for assessing the effects of ethylmercury found in thimerosal containing vaccines (TCVs). His research revealed significant differences between methyl- and ethylmercury metabolism.<1>, <2>,

Burbacher determined that injected ethylmercury cleared from the bloodstream much more rapidly than ingested methylmercury. However, his study also found that a larger fraction of the ethylmercury remained in the brains of the macaques, where it was converted to potentially more harmful inorganic compounds...

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/7712/abstract.html

[Muttocracy]

166. and this post has nothing to do with autism

And it sounds like your mind is made up regardless of science, so let's go do other things.

[mzmolly]

167. Of course it does.

And, it's a direct response to your post, which is what we do here.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

189. Thimerosal also has a half life of about 1/10 of Methyl Mercury.

[mzmolly]

209. In the blood,

not in the brain. Familiarize yourself with one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Burbacher">Thomas Burhacher and his work.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

263. Got it.

Burbacher did not draw conclusions regarding the relative toxicity of ethylmercury versus methylmercury, but did warn that methylmercury is unlikely to be a suitable reference for evaluating ethylmercury toxicity.

What conclusion should I draw from his work?

David

[mzmolly]

266. Not to compare methyl and ethyl mercury

for starters.

The Key Findings: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7712/7712.html#3

The key findings of the present study are the differences in the disposition kinetics and demethylation rates of thimerosal and MeHg. Consequently, MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg. Knowledge of the biotransformation of thimerosal, the chemical identity of the Hg-containing species in the blood and brain, and the neurotoxic potential of intact thimerosal and its various biotransformation products, including ethylmercury, is urgently needed to afford a meaningful interpretation of the potential developmental effects of immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines in newborns and infants. This information is critical if we are to respond to public concerns regarding the safety of childhood immunizations.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

270. Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines

I'll make sure I don't have any of my infant monkeys vaccinated with vaccines that have thimerosal based preservatives.

David

[mzmolly]

271. Yes, it's always good to take better care of our monkeys

than our children.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

273. You were the one that compared the two, not me.

I personally think we should take care of both.

David

[mzmolly]

276. A leading scientist

"compared the two".

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

303. Thimerosal was removed from routine childhood vaccines in 2001.

So I think we've put our kids ahead of our monkeys.

David

[mzmolly]

304. No it wasn't.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

So, I think we need to keep pressing for the actual removal of mercury and other known neurotoxins from ALL vaccines.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

305. All routine pediatric vaccines.

If they only accounted for 10%, why don't we work the other 90%?

David

[cureautismnow]

322. False. My child received thimerosal in 2003 AND 2004.

On 4 separate occasions - 6/6/03, 8/6/03, 12/9/03, and 11/22/04. I even have the lot numbers to prove it. 22 cumulative shots at 18 months of life. :grr:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

153. That's a little better but still not quite correct.

The "vaccine court" couldn't rule out vaccines or a vaccine induced fever as a stressor that may have caused autism like symptoms in a child with an underlying condition that often by itself causes autism like symptoms. I'm getting tired of posting this could you start getting it right.

David

[AikidoSoul]

236. Enzyme deficiency? Everyone is different in this

regard, and some people lack certain enzymes. We all have varying degrees of competence to detoxify drugs and other substances. For example, the more drug side effects you get, the less able you are to detoxify efficiently.

Why not ask this question: Should we be putting neurotoxins into the bodies of children with developing brains?

Millions of years of evolution did not prepare our bodies to become hazardous waste disposal plants!

And especially not in children with their delicate, developing brains.

Why not ask ourselves why we have a pandemic of children with brain disorders, instead of trying to excuse neurotoxins?

The notion of cause and effect is very, very good for industry and the chem/pharm industry, but very, very bad for those of us who have sick loved ones.

It's not fair that the burden of proof is on society. That's the way the system is set up.

1 in 6 children have brain disorders!!!

Here's what the Harvard School of Public Health says about this pandemic:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press11072006.html

[Guaranteed]

320. Further, consider the unbelievably huge spectrum of autism-

there could be a number of both genetic and environmental factors.


Personally, I believe that autism is mostly, if not entirely, a genetic phenomenon resulting from an increased gene pool as society has evolved to protecting and allowing more "unique" people to reproduce.

[pnwmom]

174. The vaccine court awarded damages because they acknowledged that

the vaccines could harm some genetically susceptible people. It is quite possible that there IS a link between thimerosal and autism in some subset of individuals.

I would like to see the data specifically for children with gluten intolerance and Celiac disease -- disorders that cause "leaky gut syndrome," which would in turn make them more susceptible to the effects of thimerosal, the adjuvants, and other components of vaccines. There is a great deal of data showing that children with autism have have rates of gluten and dairy intolerance. (Dairy intolerance being a consequence of the gluten intolerance.)

Instead of issuing its periodic blanket denials, why doesn't the FDA get busy investigating which children are more susceptible to vaccine damage than others? They've made a start with the ONE case they awarded damages to. Now it's time to move on from there.

[cureautismnow]

175. Thanks for your voice of reason.

I attended a National Autism Conference back in February and one of the presenters stated that it might be possible within the next 10 years to identify the genetically susceptible people.

Of course, this is obviously NOT a high priority for the herd mentality crowd. It would cut too much into their profits. Hopefully, a new Democratic Administration in 2009 will once again shine a light of hope, responsibility, and human decency into the CDC, FDA, etc. The current, survival-of-the-fittest squatters need to leave town or preferably the planet.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

188. I agree with you.

We should try and identify people that might be susceptible. Susceptible to autism, it might help if we truly found a cause instead of constantly blaming vaccines. Since we are constantly changing what we consider ASD it's kind of hard to identify the possible causes. This ruling isn't going to change much. It was a very specific case. I wish you all well in finding the cause and successful treatments.

David

[pnwmom]

190. But vaccines might TRIGGER autism symptoms in people

who are genetically susceptible.

This is how many genetically related conditions occur. They exist as a potential only, until something -- an infection, a toxin, a vaccine, or something else -- occurs and triggers the disease.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

265. Just like SIDS, hypertension and a ton of other things.

Not to minimize the cost to the affected families, but the societal costs of not immunizing are far greater.

David

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

27. That gambit grows old...

"If you disagree with my defense of (Big Pharma)...(the official 9/11 story)...(the denial of Global Warming)...(etc etc) you're an ignoramus with no knowledge of The Scientific Method. (inject copious industry/conservative government funded studies)"

Now, as for autism. I keep saying: I don't know the truth. I do respect RFK and he came around to position of "most likely a connection" after a lot of study. Unfortunately, there's WAY too much at stake to take most studies for or against on their face. Aside from being a concerned citizen, I have no horse in this race, so I'm still waiting for better answers. But this "if you even think there's a connection, you're an idiot" ploy only makes me suspect there is a connection even more.

[alarimer]

25. There is no link between vaccines and autism

Those people are idiots. Why would you believe some ex-Playmate over thousands of reputable studies refuting the link?

Fucking woo-woo nonsense. Unscientific BULLSHIT.

[mzmolly]

211. I think you need to read the responses in this thread.

The Playboy Bunny has Doctors and scientists and a recent court ruling to back her up.

[mzmolly]

28. Right TD some still contain trace amounts of thimerosal and the MMR vaccine may provide a different

avenue to autism?

The case that was just paid out in federal court should have quelled the nay sayers a bit but it's tough to deprogram those who fear the truth.

Great article - TD K and R! Jenny McCarthy has become an excellent advocate for parents.

[truedelphi]

34. Interesting that when someone like Dan Olmstead goes and

investigates groups that do not vaccinate their children - he cannot find any autism either
(He looked into autism propulation within the Amish - it was non-existant.)

I personally think that you can have an autistic child without vaccination - through extremely toxic environment for instance. I worked for people whose only son ws autistic - they used heavy duty wood preservatives on their decks and balconies - and wood preservative used to ahve mercury in it.

[lizerdbits]

39. Not exactly correct

Interesting survey results- 84% responded their children were vaccinated though it doesn't specify which ones or how many.

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=535

Unfortunately I can't get the original source cited other than the abstract.

[truedelphi]

90. Thanks for that dissection

I will examine the evidence critically.

[comtec]

66. There were no LIVING children with Autism

Since the Amish use 17th century medicine, you will probably find the treatment for such... conditions to be a quick, merciful death, probably by strangulation, or asphyxiation. I love the Amish, it takes great faith to remain backwards when you know "heathen medicine" could save your loved ones. I do not have that kind of strength.

But asking the Amish for the kind of detailed information needed to do a scientific study is like asking a child if they have ever sneaked sweets. They will always "truthfully" answer, no.

Looking at rates of Autism at 3rd world countries, which don't have such bothersome vaccines, is also pointless for much of the same reason. An autistic child simply isn't. parents who keep autistic children there are a very rare breed. but the child will probably kill themselves at some point before reaching majority age.

I really do understand this desperate need to find a direct cause, a direct link, to BLAME some one, since no one wants to blame god.

You especially can't look at China, because of their draconian birth laws, if a child is shown to be autistic in the womb, that fetus will not continue maturation and be aborted.

We are a spoiled rotten society. We have decided to ignore the hard, cruel, banal realities of life.

But people, that's life. It's not always fair. Which is better, to end a meaningless existence for someone who will never understand the world around them (meaning the hard core autistic), or to keep them around for our own parental selfishness, praying , and begging god for a miracle every day, every minute, living for those random moments where we think we see a glimmer of intelligence, or understanding, and false, soon-to-be-crushed hope?

I don't have to face that decision, and I do pray, that when my wife and I decide to have children, they are, at least mentally, healthy.

I know this is a unpleasant, banal post, but it's at least honest.

[RainDog]

71. autism is not mental retardation

your post is wildly misinformed about autism. Autistic people do not have a "meaningless existence." They are not dead to the world around them. Some pre-verbal autistics, when they were able to talk, have noted that they knew everything going on around them, but had no means to communicate.

sort of like Helen Keller, who no doubt had a meaningless existence too, right? (that's sarcasm.)

Read Temple Grandin's work. She was non-verbal for years. People thought she was "useless" and should be institutionalized. She's now a professor and has written numerous books about her experiences with autism.

Is that the sort of meaningless existence you're referencing?

I, too, hope that you never have a child with autism. Your post may have been honest, but it is honestly misinformed.

[comtec]

84. I understand there are many levels of autism

I was simply talking (and I mentioned that) extreme autism.
I was also talking about the 3rd, and 2nd world.
People are always banging on about how there's no autism in the 3rd world and all kinds of bullshit, when it's just not true.
There' no one LIVING with (extreme) autism.

[truedelphi]

87. Also, there isn't any way to determine if a child

Is autistic inside the womb.

[Ilsa]

227. The problem is, we don't know HOW oblivious an extremely

autistic child is. I am finding my autistic son to be engaging and more inquisitive with each passing year. Retarded? maybe by typical testing on academics. But he can be quite a problem solver when properly motivated.

I wish you and you spouse good luck. Autism is a tremendous emotional and financial burden for families. But we are surviving with help. I can't toss my child away just because he hasn't met my original expectations.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. Woefully misinformed.

There is no test for autism in the womb. You are comparing a child with autism to an individual born without a brain stem.

China DOES have a population of autistic children.

http://search.cnn.com/search.jsp?query=china,%20autism&type=web&sortBy=date&intl=false

[earth mom]

192. Are you fucking kidding me? Yours is the most ignorant post I've seen to date on this subject.

And there have been so ridiculous ones-especially from the pro-vaccine camp. :puke:


p.s. Next time, educate yourself before your spout off on something you don't have a clue about. Hell, you don't even have kids yet! :eyes:

[SidDithers]

47. CNN isn't the media?...nt

Sid

[crankychatter]

48. Rockefeller's Megapharms have operatives everywhere

don't be shocked at the overwhelming, anti-consumer sentiment on blogs... even progressive blogs

I've been to this movie... trust me

If you're doing research be careful what you post online... "just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get us..."

Bear in mind the people/corporations protecting themselves from civil liability and proper investigation have unlimited resources.

[Junkdrawer]

67. Ya think?

:shrug:

[Guaranteed]

55. I'm sorry, but your whole post is garbage.

I have no doubt about the prevalence of autism, but it is a genetic phenomenon.

[Junkdrawer]

68. I see...a sudden shift in the genetic makeup of humans...

Yeah, any thought that it's environmental is garbage...

:sarcasm:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. Read my posts above about the changes in diagnostic categories

n/t

[truedelphi]

92. Again, if it was purely a genetic response, then in a case of one identical twin having it,

The other should have it too.

Senator Dan Burton made sure to include a child who was a twin, inside his panel (some ten years ago when he led a Senate investigation into vaccines).

See my post below this one.

[cureautismnow]

97. The Congressional Record from 2003 states...

"Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines in likely related to the autism epidemic. This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding the lack of safety data regarding injected thimerosal and the sharp rise of infant exposure to this known neurotoxin. Our public health agencies’ failure to act is indicative of institutional malfeasance for self-protection and misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry"

Burton D (2003). "Mercury in medicine report" (PDF). Congressional Record 149: E1011–30.

[truedelphi]

101. Thank you very much for that citation!! n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

112. So testimony before Congress is always true???

I guess we owe G. Gordon Liddy some money since he was telling the truth. I guess the current administration has been honest with the public the entire time. I wish someone had told us that a long time ago.

David

[cureautismnow]

119. Pssst....

The CDC and the Institute of Medicine ARE the Bush Administration. And they report lies or mistakes just like any Repuke-controlled entity. Follow these links to see the widely publicized statistical errors the CDC perpetrated in their OWN study.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB110117970881981681.html

http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.2.htm

What do you know? The CDC performs "junk science" of their own.

[truedelphi]

212. When the Powers that Be report junk science as scientific fact

They get mucho rewards.

When someone like the UK doctor and researcher, Andrew Wakefield, carries out a serious study, he gets lambasted and has his life destroyed.

I see exactly the same dishonest behavior that has passed for science in the pesticide industry now moving into the world of Big Pharma.

And since players like Novartis now own the laboratories at places like UC Berkeley, my guess is that it won't change any time soon.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

107. That's not a response to my posts, and is Sen. Dan Burton

either an M.D. or an epidemiologist?

My post was about the category of "autism" being broadened to include conditions that weren't counted as autism before.

[LeftishBrit]

109. If an identical twin has autism...

then the other twin has a 60% chance of having full-blown autism, and a further 30% chance of having a cognitive disability that may not meet full criteria for autism. Only 10% show typical development. So the genetic factor, though not 100% of the cause, is very strong.

Besides genetics, another factor has been shown to play a significant role in autism. Prenatal and perinatal complications increase the risk. If only one of a pair of identical twins has autism, it usually turns out that the autistic twin had more complications at birth or was of lower birthweight.

Some think that this factor explains part of the rise in autism diagnoses: extremely premature babies, or those with very severe problems at birth, are more likely to be autistic; and nowadays they are also far more likely than in the past to survive their birth. 30 years ago, an extremely premature or sick baby was unlikely to survive long enough to be diagnosed as autistic. Nowadays they are far more likely to do so.

BTW, if one of a twin pair is vaccinated, the other one almost always is too, so that, while lack of 100% concordance in identical twins may support the existence of environmental factors in autism, it doesn't support the vaccination theory.

[truedelphi]

89. Now autism definitely has a genetic factor but there is also

Something else going on.

If you had been able to see the C Cpan hearings on Senator John Burton's Committee on Vaccines
(Circa 1996-97, maybe?) you would have realized that among today's autism sufferers is a young boy who is an identical twin to a sibling without autism.

As a baby boy, he was given a vaccination on a day when he was under the weather, while the other twin was healthy that day. Eventually he became autistic - the other boy did not.

If it was simply a matter of genes, then both boys should have the disease.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

113. Because that's the only difference right.

I'm sure other than the vaccines everything else has been the exact same. Identical birth weight, same illnesses at exactly the same time and duration, same exact foods every meal. Besides no one ever said that is was all genetic.

David

[pnwmom]

193. Many genetic conditions exist only as a potential disease, until

something else -- an infection, pregnancy, exposure to toxin, etc. -- comes along and triggers the development of the disease.

You have a common misconception -- that autism is caused either by genes or by the environment. It is much more likely, like many genetically-related conditions, to be caused by an interaction of both genes and various environmental triggers.

You also may not be aware that many autistics have gluten intolerance or Celiac disease. This causes something called "leaky gut syndrome," which makes these individuals much more susceptible to toxins reaching the brain. This is one group that deserves much more research to see if they are especially sensitive to damage from vaccine components.

[AngryAmish]

69. Great googly moogly, we are taking medical advice from Jenny McCarthy?

What complete horseshit. You should be ashamed to post this crap.

There is no link between autism and thimeresol. This is a shameful thing you did.

[Junkdrawer]

70. Red alert....Autism Parent with a Voice...

Fly, my pretties...Fly

[GoneOffShore]

91. Or a member of the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage

Pseudo Science schism.

To change the word "junk" because of the charge of Rovian vocabulary.

Which is kind of like the "first person using fascist or Hitler in a post" loses meme, but I changed it anyway.

:spank:

:eyes:

[truedelphi]

93. The term "Junk science" is a Rovian technique to discredit

Any investigation into corporate America's malfeasance.

"Junk Science" was thrown at those of us who opposed MTBE.

"Junk Science" was thrown against us in the matter of Recombinant bovine growth factor.

"Junk Science" was thrown against us in the matter of MSG as neurotoxins, NutraSweet as a Neuro toxin.

You see, in today's corporate-run science laboratories, as long as the corporation has the sway and the ability to use the revolving doors to get their people into the FDA, and onto the vaccination
panels, then what can a consumer do??

Luckily from time to time, we get a chance - such as when statistician Michael Belkin entered the fray against vaccines. But it took his daughter dying in his arms at the age of five weeks to put him into the fight. (Hep vaccine involved in that tragedy.)

[uppityperson]

95. I prefer the term pseudoscience. nt

[GoneOffShore]

96. So years of use of vaccines going back to Jenner and Pasteur are thrown out

because some woowoo like Jenny McCarthy decides that SUDDENLY vaccines are teh evul.

As various people have said - Give me a fucking break.

By the by - MSG doesn't cause anything unless you eat a whole jar of the stuff at once.

Do us all a favor - get off the net and go back to using smoke signals or two tin cans connected by string. You'll do much less harm

[truedelphi]

98. Have you noticed that nowhere in this discussion

have I stated that all vaccines are wrong.

As a parent, my child was vaccinated.

But there is a big difference between an occasional vacciantion for something like polio and 31 vaccines now required before a baby is even one year old. And then there is the hepatitis vaccine given to a newborn. It has been proven that more infants are harmed by the Hepvaccine than by the disease - it is most unlikely that a disease like Hep, spread by dirty needles and unsafe sex, will be something the average middle income baby gets.


If I was a current day new parent, i would not vaccinate until the kid was two. I would also never allow for my child to be given a shot on a day that he or she was ill. (For some reason, the local vetenarian knows enough not ot vaccinate sick animals - but friends of mine have had their pediatric doctors shoot up their kids on days when the kids are sick.)

I also would not ever allow a combination vaccine. I would give the M and the M and the R separatley rather than stacked together.

[GoneOffShore]

99. As the saying goes - Whatever

You're still pushing "woo pseudo science" and "correlation is causation".

Back to the two tin cans and string with you.

[truedelphi]

100. If you knew who Michael Belkin is, you

Wouldn't throw the "correlation is causation" slogan around so freely.

[GoneOffShore]

102. Back to the smoke signals for you.

:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

115. Nice qualifier.

The average middle income baby??? Why did you have to qualifier on that statement? Couldn't be because lower income children often get exposed to hepatitis and when they do they likely die from it. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

David

[mzmolly]

106. Vaccines date back to 200 B.C.

Ancient China actually. And, Jenny McCarthy has had her child vaccinated - the debate started long before her ordeal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. Jenny McCarthy is a snake oil saleman...

who exploits dumb parent of kids who could use money for better reasons.

Now what's this jazz about ancient China?

[mzmolly]

117. I think you have her confused with Big Pharma. McCarthy is not selling anything.

Otherwise you may have a point.

As to the history of vaccination ...

http://americanhistory.si.edu/polio/virusvaccine/history.htm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. She's selling her miracle cures.

Among other things.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-6692610-7334063?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=jenny+mccarthy&x=0&y=0

[mzmolly]

134. She wrote a book.

I guess authors of books are now selling "miracle cures"?

http://www.amazon.com/Eli-Lilly-1885-1977-James-Madison/dp/0871951975/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207262094&sr=8-1

[truedelphi]

191. For some, I am sure, her book pages will reek of snake oil

For me, I can only hope she has NYT best seller list success!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

114. Nothing like dying children to shut down an argument.

You don't use terms like junk science instead, you call on the images of dying children and lay the blame at the feet of those who disagree with you. That's a lot more ethical, not.

David

[mzmolly]

136. Much like the CDC does when they wish to sell vaccines on the backs of the

dead?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

139. How much vaccine does the CDC sell?

What and who do they charge? Do they make the vaccine also or do they just sell it?

David

[mzmolly]

142. They sell available vaccines

to the public at large. They are the official tax funded marketing machine.

As for what they charge you may wish to look into the conflicts of interest involved in the determination of US vaccine policy?

[KamaAina]

230. Children with autism are not dying!

Other than being rather accident-prone, as pointed out downthread by a mom, most of these children will grow up to be adults with autism. They will then (hopefully) do things like graduate Yale cum laude, do legislative advocacy in state legislatures and on Capitol Hill, and of course, post at DU. :hi:

[seabeyond]

239. i like your attitude

as i said in a post below, ... it is who my son is, i like him just fine who he is. it has been an interesting trip along with the other, harder emotions to deal with, .... but.... i see a higher in his experience too.

and

he took the sat test and he is 7th grade. kick high school asses, lol lol and top 5% in the nation in the english/reading portion. and all with a hand tied behind his back.... saying little to no effort.

figuring out what class room to go to next is the challenge, wink.

[Norrin Radd]

120. I like how people spout off judgements without reading the article carefully.

[Ilsa]

124. Friends, please keep in mind that autism kills also.

We have to be extra diligent as parents to keep our autistic children safe, for many years beyond what most children need supervision. My son has chewed on light bulbs, glass, and at one time would put almost any substance in his mouth. Our kitchen cabinets and garage are always locked. We have to be careful that he doesn't bolt into the street. Autistic children have more emergency room visits for accidents than other kids. And our son, like many other autistic children, may not be feeling pain the way regular kids do. He could have an injury or health problem and we wouldn't know if until he was showing symptoms.

Did vaccines cause my son's autism? We don't know. I took a flu shot with thimerosol the month before delivering. Maybe that was what triggered it.

[otherlander]

126. Ah, yes, fear Autism.

Make some impossible "cure" the only hope for autistic people to live a free and relativley happy life. We will not rest until the earth is purged of people who flap their arms and don't make eye contact!
:sarcasm:


For the record, I don't believe that vaccines cause autism, but with an increasingly corporate-puppet FDA, I don't trust that vaccines are entirely safe, either.

[KamaAina]

164. That reminds me. I forgot to flap my arms today.

There! A flap a day keeps the NT away... :-)

[otherlander]

218. *snort*

Bwahahahaha...

Wasn't trying to stereotype anyone with that post, by the way. I know a lot of autistic people don't do that. I've officially been diagnosed as an aspie, but I don't really feel like one.

[Lilith Velkor]

226. Autistic people rock!

I'm doing it right now.

[KamaAina]

229. Took me a second...

I was going to reply with something like "Actually, I'm more into jazz", but then the light clicked on. :dunce:

[Lilith Velkor]

252. I rock to anything

Many autists go back and forth, but I go side to side like an old sailor.

[otherlander]

242. Hey, aren't you that anarcha-feminist person?

Teh awesome. :thumbsup:

[Lilith Velkor]

253. Taht's me

:hi:

[Guaranteed]

316. You should research autism more, despite your diagnosis.

Autism comes in many, many different forms and levels of severity.

"I know a lot of autistic people don't" flap their arms. Very good.

In fact, I think the spectrum is going to have to be split, or reorganized somehow, so many higher-functioning people are being diagnosed as autistic.

To imagine that the people *I* work with could sit down at a computer, type, and joke around with someone else....that would be really something. For them, autism is a very, very serious thing. It means a life relying almost entirely on others to take care of them.

[seabeyond]

318. yes. the spectrum is very wide. the study of autism i did in 70's is not the autism

we are talking today with say my child or others on this board talking about their experience.
youa re so right.

[otherlander]

330. Right, but I mean...

even the other high-functioning aspies who can do all of those things... I don't feel like one of them. I've met other people with asperger's and they seemed nice enough but I didn't feel like I had anything in common with them. I think maybe I'm just a solitary person with anger issues.

The arm-flapping thing wasn't really meant to describe autistic people... when I wrote that I was thinking more about those organizations that try to raise money for a cure by using all of those pictures of autistic people and portraying them as tragic even when the person in the picture is happy, or not upset. It annoys me, especially the "autism speaks" thing which isn't actually made up of autistic people but rather neurotypical people speaking for autistic people. I say: Rights first, treatment second.

[JeanGrey]

137. Did Jim Carrey adopt her child? He only has one child, a

daughter. As far as I know they don't have any children together.

[cureautismnow]

150. Another Excellent ARTICLE to upset the MERCURY-PUSHERS.

"Here are a number of reasons why the question remains open:

1. While government scientists, advisors and pharmaceutical companies have been responsible for infinite lifesaving and life improving medical advances, they are not infallible.

• It's the same group that originally thought it was safe to use x-ray machines in shoe stores, gave pregnant women Thalidomide for morning sickness and once allowed mercury in medicines. They assured us Vioxx and Duract were safe painkillers, prescribed Rezulin for diabetics and then denied any of them were responsible for patient deaths. If we never questioned that group, we might not have discovered that Fen-phen and the dietary supplement Ephedra are not safe weight loss products, that antidepressants in kids can lead to suicidality and Viagra can cause blindness. The list goes on.

• When it comes to vaccines, the same group failed to predict that the 1990's rotavirus (diarrhea) vaccine would have to be pulled from the market after infant deaths. They encouraged use of the oral polio vaccine (eventually discontinued after it gave too many children polio). And they allowed the use of a mercury neurotoxin preservative in childhood vaccines, only to admit later that they hadn't thought to calculate the cumulative amount kids were getting as more and more vaccines were added to the childhood immunization schedule."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/06/15/couricandco/entry2934107.shtml

It seems the mercury-pushers have their own brand of PEER-REVIEWED JUNK SCIENCE.

[seabeyond]

210. i watched my son on his two year old shots be effected and go

into autistic behavior later that night. we didnt have a clue. we had heard no rumor or gossip that there could be an issue. and my husband and i stood over our sons bed and watched him preform the oddest behavior with his hands and no eye contact..... i told husband that night, looks like autistic behavior.

since that time, so long ago (he is 13 now) we have dealt with so many special issues he has had to face. massive amounts of reading, research and experiemnting to see what works with the kid

people who have not experienced this can sit in comfort and insist that it is not vaccinations. they can trust their govt and pharmas. they can point the finger at parents and say you dont know what the fuck you are talking about. are you stupid. shut the fuck up

still doesnt take away what my husband and i watched with my two year old son 11 years ago.

i have even had people on this thread tell me.... and even IF it is true, so what.... all the children it save. the greater good

shame on them

the children that have been changed, no longer who they were, having to adapt and learn to live peacefully against so much.

why couldnt it be..... protect ALL, instead of some

i am now watching the consumption of fish with this particular son that i feel is ultra sensitive to mercury. seeing if certain fish brings that behavior back. the last 6 months and an increase in fish in our diet and his periodic slide back in behavior now has me curious.

we leave it to the parent to figure out, then we ride the parents ass cause they dare to figure out what is happening to their children

[truedelphi]

214. About eighteen months ago, Reader's Digest had an article

About older people who were eating fish for health reasons - their memories started turning to mush, they had aches and pains related to neuralgias. Then when they gave up eating fish, their health recovered. It seems once you are in your later thirties or forties, your body just doesn't screen out toxins that well.

I am sorry for what you your son and your family has endured from this nightmare.

My own awakening on the vaccine issue came in the late 1970's when a vaccination for the swine flu resulted in Guilluime Barre syndrom - which luckily for me cleared up on its own after fifteen months.

But for the first six months, I had seering red hot pain at the injection site.

[conscious evolution]

254. My father had Guilliume Barre

Came down with it two days after his swine flu vaccination.
Spent 9 months in ICU hooked up to a respirator.

[truedelphi]

256. Was he able to take the swine flu vacine people to court?

My case was rather mild - besides the burning sensation, it affected only mobility in my left arm. And I was still in my twenties - so I had the youth thing going for me. A doctor looked at my arm and said it was all in my head.

I didn't really understand what was wrong until Life magaizne had some articles about it long after my arm had cleared up.

[conscious evolution]

257. No he did not

It never occurred to him to do so.Actually,I think the Vaccine court came about after(and as a result of)the swine flu debacle.
His insurance covered 98% of the bills since it fell under catastrophic illness.
He also had close to two years of unused sick leave and vacation time accrued so he was getting a paycheck the whole time.
He also got to retire under a disabilty clause and get 100% percent of his salary instead of the normal 70% so in one way he came out ahead.

[earth mom]

217. Yes, the parents have had to become the warriors in this fight because no one gives a damn. nt

[seabeyond]

222. again this afternoon dealing with son about the same shit we have been dealing with for years

i sit down to this computer to read another poster tell me, ..... so WHAT..... need to now say oh well cause of those fighting cancer and immune system low ergo cant afford to get any of these diseases and more susceptible. like it is a damn win lose.....win for some children, loss for others, and cannot possibly see that ALL children must be winners in this

YES

it is bottom line, other agendas, other interests, other priorities.... fuck these children that are having to walk life with this and all the families that must adapt

i am so mad.

then i vent

and now i start my weekend

yes, they dont give a shit

[earth mom]

224. I get so mad at those who are covering for big pharma. They are vile.

After all the * & Co has pulled on all of us the past 7+ years, how in the hell can people say trust the CDC?! Simply for the good of THEIR kids?! :wtf:

And if nothing is wrong with the vaccinations why has * & Co covered big pharmas a$$es all these years?!

The parents of kids with autism are getting the shaft from all sides-the g'ment, big pharma, the schools, the insurance companies, the media, ignoramuses here on DU-all why they try and recover and care for their kids with very little if any help of any kind!

The whole damn mess is criminal. :grr:



Sorry for your struggle, I understand what you're going through. :hug:

[seabeyond]

237. bush says pharma co cant be sued. BIG clue-in folks

but, i do want to say clearly, .... my son is so great. challenging, but in such an interesting way and have been so many lessons for me in life, has given me so much more than i would ever expect....

it isnt a matter of me whining. i am not. i have it good. my son is well taken care of. we have embraced this who he is.

but people dismiss it, ignore it and a lot of kids and families arent doing as well as we are. it is a lot tougher for a lot of people. but experiencing it, i can feel sympathy.

when my son first started in school, prek 4 yrs old... i spent years going thru the system with him and there were always the specific child. the feel, the energy of these children. they always came to me. needing certain touches, feels to ground them. i started getting real interested in all this. just made it so clear something is up. as they grow older they hopefully have found their own ways to ground or be balanced. not just autism. i just open it to neurological isues.

[HanoverFist]

219. A question...

Long-time lurker, first-time poster...

I have a question for both sides of the vaccination argument:

What if vaccines are connected to autism. In addition what if it is shown that it is an unfortunate reaction that a certain percentage of the population will have, no matter what. IOW what if vaccination cannot be made 100% safe?
Should we continue it?
If (again IF) there is a connection, is it a reasonable price to pay for protecting the rest of the 'herd', so to speak?

[seabeyond]

223. to at least know would be a huge step forward that would allow resolution

then we can find out the why's then find out the how to fix it.

we can drop the vaccinations that are not that important but are insisting our children do because it saves parents from missing work, or makes pharma companies lots of money.

it can also be approached from a different angle that this is what is escalating autism and other neurological disorders in our children and find ways from that angle what/how to do these children and how/what to help them avoid things that will make it worse

in my personal experience what i see is a major shift in the child with the reaction to the vaccination, then after being away form them when they are older, it mellows. but i am seeing other things trigger these behaviors.

would be good if we had some honesty in this issue, what we could find for solutions

i wouldnt stop all vaccinations
it might be something simple like seperating the measle/mump vaccination and in time.

i did have one poster tell me.... so IF this is happening, these kids are expendable for the greater good

these are fools/cowards/ignorant that they dont have the experience of watching these children, the challenges they face, the self hate.... my greatest fear is sons teenage years and being so "different" "odd" that he doesnt feel he belongs on this planet. i am looking to make it thru the teenage years with him....

so as we dismiss these childrens experience, we should at least be empathitic enough to know the crisis they may expereince.

[Fireweed247]

289. I think you have an amazing attitude for all you have been through

You must be a great parent!

[seabeyond]

319. a parent

i parent, anyway.... good bad and ugly.

thanks.

[Ilsa]

225. The Health policies of the US have answered that question, even if

autism isn't a result of vaccines.

There are devastating results for a very small minority that receive vaccines. You rarely hear about them -- it isn't likely your local news will cover them. The families are devastated with the loss of a child, quite possibly their first born. Children that are born after their sibling reacts do not receive the vaccines -- their parents can't risk it. The affected child is usually placed in a long term care facility and there is a financial payment from the vax injury fund or whatever. They know there will be bad outcomes for some, but vaccinations continue because of the risk of those horrible diseases.

When I had my first child, another woman I became friends with said there was a vax injury down the street from her. Everyone on the street was talking about it. But it wasn't covered in a newspaper or local news report, even though other minor incidences are. The media doesn't want to scare the public. They believe they are being responsible by not covering it.

I forgot to add: WELCOME TO DU! I'm glad you decided to start posting. There's a lot of everything here. I hope you'll find some forums that make you feel right at home.

[lumberjack_jeff]

310. Welcome to DU!

I LOVE the nickname!

It is a highly suspect assumption that vaccines cannot be adjusted to lower their risk.

The environment/genetics argument has a very simple and obvious solution.

In 1960, 1:2500 children were born with autism. In 2008 between one in 1:50 to 1:160 are. It is clearly an epidemic. It is incumbent upon those who think there's no environmental trigger to explain what a "genetic epidemic" is. Current medical science would consider it an oxymoron.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

235. I'm sorry, I thought I was on Democratic Underground.

Among the many parents who suffered through vaccination leaving their child autistic are Jenny McCarthy And Jim Carrey.

:rofl:

They now believe that the wise, health-oriented treatments they have undertaken have helped their son Even helped their son Even helped their son Even helped their son Even recover recover

recover

recover

:rofl:

by Jenny McCarthy

:rofl:



:rofl:


Is it any wonder that autism has become many new parents' No. 1 fear?



:rofl:

Evan has been healed to a great extent by many breakthroughs that, while

perhaps not scientifically proven,

have definitely helped Evan and many other children who are recovering from autism, diabetes, hysterical pregnancy, alien abduction, morgellons, moremoregellons, evenmoremoregellons, and neongenesisevanmorgellions.

:rofl:


PLEASE NOTE: WHILE CNN was blaring THE FACT that there is no longer any thimeresol in vaccines, those of us in the know realize that the recommended yearly flu shots can still contain it. And those shots are recommended for Children.

Children

I attempt to portray my mental illness as love for

children!

:rofl:


This postmodernist post has been brought to you by www.timecube.com

[AikidoSoul]

260. Kick this baby

Varkam... I would like to kick more than that.

I would love to know if you work for pharma, or one of its lobbying firms. You seem to have zero ability to look at the science that has been offered here.

[axollot]

262. The positive in this article is...

that there are children 'recovering' *thats* awesome! While I've heard of similar before, it was a different case - similar treatment. 90% of the cognative treatment makes sense, regardless of the 'reason' for autisim. All children who suffer should have access to the cognative behavioural treatment outlined in the article. And, if along with diet change, the child can now live a full and normal life - that's just simply brillant and couldn't come to soon.

Hopefully, we can limit the amount and start seeing a decrease in children being effected by autisim by the removal of the unneccessary fillers and the push for early vaccines. While many children tolerate it, so many don't. Not to mention, our government doesn't have the 'best' reputation for bad vaccines, but they did those to instatutionalized children - right now all children are being over-exposed and seem to be acting like guinea pigs. (My kids range in age from 18 - 4, I've noticed a change in vaccines and really can tell there are more of them).

Yes, all three of my kids have been vaccinated, if I had another child (oh dear god noooooo) I would definately be more selective on what and when they inject vaccines in to him or her. I wouldn't - not do vaccines all together, but research more and hold off is necessary.

Cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

264. that is what i would do. i would have ALL the control over whta vaccinations and when

wouldnt be 5/6 at a time.

[Pale Blue Dot]

272. I really think that it's time that this crap got moved to the 9/11 forum.

Jenny McCarthy? Are you serious?

[Robb]

306. Jenny McCarthy turned me into a newt

Got better.

[GoneOffShore]

313. My cell phone gave me hemorrhoids

But Jim Carrey fixed them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

309. Are you suggesting you have more expertise on the topic of Autism?

Parents have been forced, of necessity, to become the experts.

[citizen snips]

317. I did not realize CNN could post such shit.

[GoneOffShore]

327. CNN is a great fan of hysteria and pseudo science

If there's a celebrity behind it, they'll promote it.

[woo me with science]

364. CNN? Check out their breathless, fawning piece on phrenology.

Or "personology," as it's called now. Absolute medieval garbage, and racist to boot.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2008/02/21/face.personology.cnn?iref=videosearch


But this is the state of scientific understanding in this country. The autism crap is particularly heinous, because it preys on parents who desperately want reasons for their children's disabilities.

[w8liftinglady]

354. kEEP THIS BABY OU

[pitohui]

365. yeah whatever

i had no idea that maccarthy and carrey were medical doctors or even researchers, it must be hell being so multi talented

let's get real, the magic diet didn't cure their kid of autism, he was prob. mis dx'd and never had it in the first place

doesn't this silly <not nice word expurgated> realize that everyone who is ill or who has a sick mate or a sick child has tried the special magic foods? it just don't work for most of us

vaccines save lives, a look at history should be enough to satisfy any logical person on that front