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is it wrong for me to make prayer beads for my patients and their families?

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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:56 AM
Original message
is it wrong for me to make prayer beads for my patients and their families?


Abd,yes,I make secular ones for those who are not Christians.It gives me and my patients solace.What would you think if it were you?
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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. How beautiful
I would be grateful.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have made almost 400,with a generic prayer for healing over each
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Beautiful. Why would you think it's wrong?
I'm not religious, but you are lovely to do anything for your patients/famiies.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I hate to force anything on someone in a delicate position..
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. My dear w8liftinglady...
This is a lovely piece...

I'd love one if I were your patient...

But...

Not everyone might welcome such a gift.

I would certainly ask first...

And if you wanted it to be a surprise, then ask someone close to the person you want to give it to.

:hi:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. This seems to me to be a gentle and reasonable way to handle any
uncertainty.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. I use them basically as a tool of hope
and to give courage...especially for those who have no families.They seem to help.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. Can I ask what tool of hope you give to those who have no religion?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:03 AM by notadmblnd
on edit: I don't have a problem with what you do, I'm just curious.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
91. Even those without religion can meditate &/or do visualizations...
...and take hope from feelings of calm &/or empowerment, whatever it is they need to achieve. They can also take hope from the kindness of others, such as w8liftinglady.

Hekate

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. How lovely. I think it makes you a thoughtful and kind person.
You might make some Islamic misbahah (worry beads) as well (33 or 99, now!) if you have any muslim patients. Make them good and sturdy because they get a workout with some!
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Grey Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think they are lovely,
Who might be objecting? and why?
Prayer to give comfort is always a good thing.
Lifting the weight from the shoulders of the grieving is never a bad thing.
As a Buddhist, I say 'do the right thing' Silly people.......


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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. If I was in need of medical help I would hope you were there.
:hug:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. lots of belief systems use beads. Lovely things you are making
and they are coming from a good heart. My dad was given a shawl before he passed on that had been knitted with prayer. We had him cremated in it, he loved and was comforted by it so. You are doing much good.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's beautiful!
I would be honored to receive such a gift from you.

What sort of patients do you care for?

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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. ok, it's pretty
But how do you make secular prayer beads? Do you just leave off the cross and call them "worry beads"?

I do know some people who would be quite offended if they were given prayer beads. They are people who are constantly being pressured to convert by family members, and they don't welcome any added stress in that department, especially when they are sick. But if you always check first to make sure whether a religious or a secular item is more appropriate, I don't think you'd end up upsetting anyone.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
60. How about thought or meditation beads?
Worry is often the biggest thing patients already have.
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
86. well, actually
If it were me, I'd be happier with a plush toy. But some people like baubles. Some people even like bibles. If you are doing something for someone else, and not for yourself, what helps them most is what is most important.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think you could start selling those
let me know how to order a few

that is beautiful!


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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
44. I am not aware anywhere in the OP that she FORCES them on
anyone. God. She's doing a nice thing. If you do sell them, count me in. they are beautiful.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. It is never wrong to offer such comfort, but it might...
be a bit much to force it on some.

If I were gravely ill and someone of any faith, or perhaps no faith at all, went to such pains to make such a beautiful thing for me, I would accept it in the spirit in which it was given, and cherish it greatly. Cherish it as not so much a religious thing, but as a very human one.



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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. Exactly!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. They are beautiful
I would be touched if I were one of your patients and you gave me a set.

I'd buy a set if you sold them, they are truly lovely.

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. even though I'm not religious, I would appreciate the thought and accept the gift
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
16. what a beautiful rosary!
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IrishForEdwards Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. Reminds me Of Home
I was raised catholic in a small town called Clonakilty in the south of Ireland, I believe rosary beads to be a beautiful reminder for those of faith. I personally today am a non-denominational christian but I do have some rosary beads that I have in my beside locker. I believe honestly w8liftinglady that it will be a very sad day if rosary beads are not allowed for patients to have. I think it is a wonderful thing that you are doing, obviously being respectful of one's faith is in order. As you stated you make secular along with religious, all i have to say is keep up the good work mam!

By Japers tis a wonderful thing, God bless you

Erik Benjamin O Corcorain
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Welcome to DU Erik!
:hi:

Julie
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. I think I drove through Clonakilty. Ireland, God's home away from home.
welcome, my dearie.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. As an atheist
I think it's beautiful. Of course I was raised Catholic so I may be a bit biased in spite of my atheism.

My friend has recently gone through incredible difficulties with a hip replacement. She's a nominal believer but goes to this little, very liberal church occassionally. They came to the hospital and gave her a "prayer shawl" one of the ladies had made for her. Very soft! Had a little note with it, something about love in every stitch. I thought it was really nice and I know it really touched my friend that they did that.

People try to help others with kindnesses and they do what they know. You are offering comfort to your patients with what you can and I for one think it's wonderful. I could not bring myself to be offended by such a gesture as I'd see it simply as a kindness.

Bravo to you for caring enough to try! :toast: :hug:

Julie
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IrishForEdwards Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. In Complete Agreement
Thank you for the welcome JNelson6563!

I have been referred to this site by AsDJRocky a good friend of mine who worked with me on the John Edwards Campaign. What you said is completely true, if these beads are being used in an act of kindness how can one be offended?

It is a lovely gesture of kind affirmation, I think our World would be a much better place if more people would consider others before themselves.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. I've made a couple of prayer shawls.
I just finished a crocheted one for a Michigan cancer center.

I look at it like this: I pray as I make them, putting as much love and care and positive thinking into each loop or stitch. We don't know everything about energy in this universe, so putting as much positive energy into a shawl for someone who's really ill and needing it has to be a good thing. I know that the shawl kit some knitting friends got me to knit up after my kidney surgery really helped me deal with my fear and anxiety about the whole process.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #48
95. Such can mean much for different reasons
A handmade gift like a shawl or the beautiful beads in the OP would mean much to my heathen self simply because of the human care that goes into making and delivering of the item. I believe that human kindness is the most valuable thing of all. Unlike other valuables, I don't think it would lose it's value if there were suddenly lots and lots of it around. ;-)

Thanks for your kind efforts to comfort those who really need it. :hug:

Julie
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Tracer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. I disagree -- somewhat.
Your heart is in the right place and the beads are quite lovely --- but ---

Last October, I was in a hospital bed prepped for surgery. I had filled out the form saying that I DIDN'T want any priest, minister or rabbi talking to me.

They sent one anyway. A lovely young woman from a local seminary.

She asked if I wanted to pray.

This was a VERY uncomfortable question for me, as I am/was a Catholic who now doesn't believe.

But being a really polite person, I held my tongue and just said "no".

And after that, she, I and my daughter had a great (and funny) conversation.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Just because they were unaware does not
mean you have to be too. I think you did the right thing. No need to give something like that more power than you needed to at that moment. You needed to be in your body and not stressed with something that could be let go.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. I agree with this.
I am quite sure it comes from a place of caring in you. Quite sure many patients truly appreciate this. And the beads are lovely.

However.

I don't want anyone, even oh-so-gently with their heart in the right place - doing anything remotely related to evangelizing to me when my position and theirs is so clearly a position not of equals, but of me being in a weak subordinate position, and them in the position of care provider. The line between providing medical care and religious guidance should not, ever, be broached by the person in power, only by the patient.

Imagine if everyone did this - if you went into the hospital and the admitting staff offered to do some religious service for you. Then the nurse offered the same. Then the anesthesiologist. Then the surgeon. Can you see why that would be offensive? I don't know, maybe not ... but I can see that it would seem relentless. Society does this to atheists and minority religions already in various degrees. Some are fine with it and honestly aren't offended. Others have different reactions. But when we are sick, that's not a time to start in on us.

For me, it's a matter of balancing the rights of the majority with the rights of the minorities. For many minorities they have been victims of religious discrimination in the past, in some cases the discrimination may have triggered PTSD depending on the circumstances, and whether or not the offenses rose to the level of hate crimes.

You could be the sort of person who says "This helps the majority, that outweighs the concern that for one patient I've potentially caused them undue stress." Or you could be the sort of person who says "not doing this causes no harm to anyone. Doing it has the potential to harm a patient."

I fall on the side of not doing harm, if this is not a part of your job.

When I've been a clinic escort at a women's clinic, there have always been "well-meaning" people (protesters) offering beads with crucifixes to the women. What happens when you offer your crucifix to a woman who flashes back to trying to get an abortion and the protesters are in her face trying to give these to her these same things? She'd have that connection in her head, related to an event that may or may not have been traumatic to her. I see women going in to get abortions get screaming mad at the crucifix offerers, and I know they will have that connection in them, between trying to get health care and some bead-offering missionary overstepping their bounds in infuriating ways.

I think there are other ways you could provide the same service, without overstepping your professional role. You could make these and donate them to a religious organization who helps people who are sick. You could offer them free on a website for hospice patients. You don't need to be confronting people who are getting medical care about a very personal subject that they haven't asked you to intrude into. Patients don't all want to discuss their religion with you, and won't all welcome your presumption that it's your place (as a person who holds power over them) to pry into their personal beliefs.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
65. I'm glad you had the strength to say no
and sorry that you had to. That's the sticky place the OP is talking about. That's why she is worried, I think. She's looking for reassurance, because I think she understands the inequity and possible discomfort.

I'm pleased that the woman who visited you was able to hear your no and appear to not take it personally (I'm using the fact that she had a conversation with your daughter instead of running out immediately as indirect evidence).

Gosh, I do wish there was an easy black and white answer to this thing. When my patients parents bring up God first, I'm able to talk with them in ways that I think are very supportive of their beliefs even though I'm Pagan. I was once Southern Baptist so I have some background. But usually, because of the inequity, I use other ways, other than religion, to support them, but I wonder if some of them are supported enough without that. I really, really don't have an answer to that.

I love that this is being talked about.
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KatyaR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
22. Those beads are absolutely beautiful--it's obvious that
you put a lot of thought and effort into your pieces.

I'm not religious any more, but I have always loved and still love the idea of rosary beads or worry beads. For me, it seems that you can benefit from them by just holding them in your hands, especially a beautiful piece like this. You're right--prayer doesn't necessarily have to be involved.

If it were me, I'd be thrilled and pleased to have such a gift. You have a great talent, and your compassion shows in your work.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
24. I am sure you may run into some unconscious people
who may be offended so be prepared. They are beautiful btw. Most, however, will likely respond positively.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. That is exquisite
I don't see a problem with it as long as you are sure of their religious leanings or talk to them first.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
27. My wife does the same thing only hers are not Christian
She calls them healing strands or good luck strands and they have islamic prayer beads in them as well. How could it possibly hurt?
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. Yes, it is wrong.
Unless you work in a church owned hospital.

(I find this very different from a prayer shawl as noted up thread. The shawl has another use, the beads really do not. And the shawl was not presented by the care giver.)

More often than not, when I tell someone I don't believe in god I get shunned. It's why I sometimes lie. I've spent my fair share of time in hospitals, sometimes very sick. It would make me uncomfortable. My choice would be "lie or be shunned by the person who is providing my care".

Keep it professional.
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Well said response. And since it is proven that prayer doesn't help and
might even hurt; it could be misconstrued by anyone informed of these facts. If my caregiver ever attempted to provide me something of this sort, or even a prayer shawl (vs a regular shawl), I would fire them on the spot and find a caregiver focused on giving care, not on imaginary buddy hope.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. my father was comforted and he was asked if he wanted it. It was
incredibly soft and he wore it day and night afterward. I find it amazing that people would assume that she wouldn't ask. I am also sorry for all the experiences that gave people grief as related. I found myself indebted to the sweet women that do this to give comfort. But that's just me. :) I don't
claim to speak for anyone else. But I do love the OP and her creations. PM me, sweetie, if you do want to sell them. I would love to have one with Muslim beads and other things in them.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
66. Love helps
In whatever way it's presented. It's the inequity that I wonder about rather than the love shown in these beads.
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
78. Assuming a person desires prayer isn't considered love as Hamlett points out.
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Dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #78
98. And arbitrarily firing people for expressing their beliefs in what they believe is a compassionate
way isn't considered progressive- but here you are advocating it on DU...
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. It wouldn't be arbitrary if she was fired for bringing religion in where it may not be wanted.
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
101. Exactly, if she wants to offer prayer anything, she should make
the beads and give them to her church to distribute to people who request such things, not "offer" them directly to her clients.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. What are secular prayer beads?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM by Marr
Religiously neutral, as in no cross? If so, I'm not sure that simply removing overt religious iconography can turn an inherently religious symbol into something neutral.

To be perfectly frank with you, I'm not sure how I'd respond. I'm an atheist myself. I might take it as a kind gesture, but I might also perceive it as preying on someone who is likely to be scared, and vulnerable to a subtle religious sales pitch. I suppose it would depend on how it was done.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
30. I prefer a doctor that acts secular in the office


no religion mixed with my health care please.
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
31. All they have to do is say, "no thank you" but I think it's very kind and they are lovely. It gives
people something to occupy their mind and perhaps some hope.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. If they are speaking to a peer, that is easy
When you are sick, you become like a child and your caregivers can trigger parental issues that could make it really difficult to say no.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
83. The power imbalance is significant. Some people wouldn't want to risk offending
someone who is charged with caring for them in a hospital, or wouldn't want to risk having a disagreement.

In the end I think DU is the wrong audience for the question. The hospital probably has some guidance on such matters, and that's a better place to ask about the appropriateness.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. I have done professional beading and your prayer beads are beautiful. I think it is a kind gesture
on your part.

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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
35. unprofessional
but lovely thought
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. We were taught in nursing school to remain detached to remain professional
I've learned in my two decades as a nurse that they were wrong. But it is a difficult place to traverse, being available to your patients and their families in a non-detached and yet professional way. Professional became slippery after a short time. I'm a very professional nurse and yet, I hold parents while they cry, we tell each other jokes, I reassure them that whatever feelings they are having are the right feelings. I even allow them to hate me if they need to. I've baptized a few dying babies in my day, though I am a Pagan (did it because the parents asked and there was no priest available in time).

Religion and spirituality are places where professionalism and humanity become very nuanced.
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. indeed
started three home health companies and it was wonderfully different from working in hospitals as so attached to families...but yet...giving out religious beads is something I couldn't cross the line for. Calling me at 2am and crying with them yes...but that no.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. I loved working in home health!
The inequity was lessened and I got to know people on a different level.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
36. Better than making them anal beads
:rofl:

I don't see a problem with it - if a tibetan monk offered me a prayer wheel I would accept the gift.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. lol
As a sick person, I want to feel better.
Please help me feel better.

And those beads are very pretty. I would call them healing beads..
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
37. I would absolutely love them! Beautifully made & your generosity & thoughtfulness is awesome.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. On the down side, that is one scary looking Jesus ya got there
:)
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. Mixed answer: I am confident it is well meant, and that many patients appreciate it
and are comforted by it.

Personally, while in the hospital, I wouldn't want to have to discuss religion with caregiver staff. Please understand: I don't think for a moment that you're confrontational in any way. But in a vulnerable position,I just wouldn't even want the topic broached unless I was the one who raised it. I'd want the staff to be warm and caring but professional, and to not introduce religion, or politics, or anything like that.

I also think I'm in the minority on this matter, so I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. I like your lovely beading and understand the place you
are coming from. Some might say, "keep it professional" but that is not what they mean, I think what they mean is "keep it clinical-or physical". A professional healer (doctor, nurse etc.) brings a holistic approach--body, mind, and spirit.

The beads can be used for prayers and/or affirmations. Positive thinking and attitude contribute to positive outcomes. The beads can even be used to count repetitions for exercises given by PT, or minutes since the last pain medicine given.

You might have some problems at work if there is religious imagery on them if you don't work for a religious institution. Mostly, if you can refer to the patient's admission paperwork, it lists if they have a religion. Even people who state they don't have a "religion" often do turn to prayer when their mortality is presented. I would not offer these unless I had a rapport with the patient and was confident that they would like these.

Family members-- I think it is fine. Most family members feel very powerless when it comes to disease in their loved one. The prayer/affirmation/worry beads may help them. I would also refer them to the spiritual needs counselor most hospitals employ if they had any questions.

Most times it is a no-brainer, the family or the patient may have religious/spiritual items at the bedside.

There are people who want a purely clinical experience, that expectation is usually made very clear from the outset.

I am speaking from my experience in working with acutely ill cancer patients, including those recently diagnosed.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. Did you ask them if they wanted them FIRST . . . ???
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
47. That is beautiful. What a wonderful gesture.
As you've likely experienced, not everyone will appreciate it, but how wonderful that you're expressing personal concern for those who are suffering. You know that it has to be worth something! :)
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
50. Those are beautiful
And although I am not Catholic, I am a Christian and I would certainly appreciate the gesture if I were sick.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. I would think it's a lovely gesture if you know enough about me
to know whether I'm the type of person who would welcome prayer beads... I think it could be quite uncomfortable for someone who isn't religious, though.

They're lovely, and personally I'd be quite touched to receive them. But I'm not everyone, you know?

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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
52. I'm Orthodox, so I'd totally take that and hang onto it.
When I had my kidney surgery, I kept my chotke (knotted prayer rope) with me to pray with. There were many times it brought me comfort.

A Pagan friend of mine had a Native American friend of hers make me a healing necklace, and I wore that, too. I'm not Pagan, and I'm not a believer in Native American mysteries and faith, but I clung to that necklace, and it gave me a lot of comfort to wear it. I still keep it by my comfy chair. That necklace was made for me, and it was made with love. That's good enough for me. :)
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. i'd probably accept it just to be polite, but don't want one and wouldn't use it
i would feel uncomfortable while it was being given, and put it away as soon as you left.

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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
54. If it were me, I would think it was a very thoughtful gesture.
Even people who are not religious should see the kindness of such a gift.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
55. When my partner's sister was dying of pancreatic cancer
one of her nurse friends and coworker (she was a doctor) made us all prayer beads as well as filled the fridge with dinners.

That last weekend, we worked in shifts staying up watching Ellie and making sure her morphine booster was activated. Gene was so wonderful and her prayer beads were a tremendous comfort to all of us. I still have mine. I'm a lapsed methodist and my partner and her sister were raised Moravians (German protestants) and we all were not only touched by having the beads but they gave us something tangible to hang on to and to reflect on. I can't tell you how much comfort we took from them. It helps to have wonderful people like you in the world. :grouphug:
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. I'd think it a lovely gesture, they are beautiful.
:)
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MrsMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
57. I feel that gestures from the heart, offered respectfully,
transcend any religious imagery. I was raised Christian (currently non-practicing), but I find images of any religion to be imbued with spirituality, and would find comfort in them.

Whatever you want to call it, you ware showing yourself to be a caring and concerned caregiver.

If I were your patient, I would be touched and honored to receive this gift of your time - it demonstrates that your patients are not simply "work" but that you value them as people.

I'd seriously love to own one of these, if you'd care to offer one to me for sale. PM me. It is a beautiful object, but because of the care and love you take with creating them, I feel it has become much more than just a pretty thing.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. That incapsulates how I would feel
But, as a fellow nurse, I know the quandary she faces. Not everyone understands that love transcends religion.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
58. Pretty. What to the secular ones look like?
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. I have a variety of hearts,animals and angels at the end
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
103. Cool
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
59. I'm a Pagan and I keep my religion quiet at work (I'm a nurse)
but the folks who are Christian do not. Many years ago, I would have had a problem with that, but now I don't. What changed? Well, a couple of things. I got over my bad self and I realized, through the work of Joseph Campbell, that the various religions are trying to speak to the same thing, albeit in an oblique way, because it can't be spoken of directly, we just don't have the words. But we have art and this that you do is art.

There was someone who asked how you would present such a thing to a non believer. It seems to me that even a non believer knows that within themselves, they have a stronger, more loving self, some call it a higher power, others don't. Or even a reminder of nature and it's magnificence could work in that situation.

But, as a fellow nurse, I actually know the core question you are asking. Our patients (or customers or clients as was vogue a few years ago - I don't buy it because when one is sick, one is not shopping for care, one is limited by insurance, etc.) are inherently at a power deficit to those taking care of them, so just as when a boss crosses certain lines with a less powerful subordinate, there are sticky places reached very quickly. And you have in fact, found a sticky area and you know it, because you ask it. Thing is, it is in the asking us that it shows that you are looking at it. I suspect very strongly that there isn't one answer to this ethical dilemma, in fact, I would be shocked if there were.

Last night, I was listening to a fellow nurse talking about her faith and without sharing any of mine, we were able to find much common ground. She prays for many of her patients but always asks in a gentle way. I've wondered if it isn't exactly that thing that you mention, that of inequity and being unable to say no at that time. I'm not in an inequitable position though, and I asked her to pray for my son's real mom if she would be willing. She is very willing and I am very happy that she is. I've asked the Goddess to protect her and help her in any way that would help her. I see nothing wrong with enlisting other people in the team of love.

So, as you can see, I've come up with nothing here except to say that I recognize your dilemma and your love. And, I am grateful to have you as a colleague. You and I are the backbone of one of the most beautiful and yet painful (and every other emotional word I can think of) profession.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #59
92. Tavalon, I would so hope for you & w8liftinglady to be my or my family's caregivers in time of need
But since that is unlikely, I hope for your spiritual sisters to be there instead.

:hug:

Hekate
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
63. You know what I think!
:hug: :loveya:
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
64. I think you should ask people first.
I know most people wouldn't mind, but my family, for example, wouldn't appreciate it. We're sensitive about the way a lot of people automatically assume everyone thinks there is some sort of deity and that "prayer" is supposed to be a way to communicate with said deity. I know you mean well, but, you asked. We're the type of people, and I know we're not alone, who are tired of the presumption of religion in society. Plus, sorry -- "secular prayer beads"? I don't get that. If something is secular it has nothing to do with prayers, or am I wrong? :shrug:
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Yeah, you are wrong :)
Plus, sorry -- "secular prayer beads"? I don't get that. If something is secular it has nothing to do with prayers, or am I wrong?

People who are secular can indeed have prayers - just like Christians can find comfort in tibetan prayer wheels (as noted above) even though they don't share the same ideals.

Even when I was an atheist I would have welcomed such a thing - as it showed compassion from a fellow human.

I don't mean that in the wrong way of course (ie, the title of my reply) - but I personally think that secular does not mean you discount - or are offended by the efforts of others.

I have had many folks on the astrology board wish me well, and while I don't buy into their views I am more than happy to take well wishes from them.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I'm not religious, I'm secular, and I don't pray.
I know I "can" have prayers -- but I do not want prayers, and I don't want to pray. It seems that a lot of religious people assume everyone prays. But lots of us don't. Frankly, I really do not like anything having to do with religion. Honestly, I find it all somewhat ... creepy ... for want of a better word, and I always have. Even the musty smell of a church creeps me out. (Other people can obviously can believe what they want in terms of religion, as long as they don't try to push it onto me or other people.)

I'm not trying to be a jerk; I'm just trying to explain why someone who is like the people in my family wouldn't appreciate someone giving them "prayer" beads without asking them first, no matter how well-intentioned the person is.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
68. If you were treating me, I would be offended and would probably seek other medical professionals.
I don't know if you're a physician or some other kind of medical professional, but the last thing I would want under the circumstances of illness is to have some one shove their religion at me.

I note that my wife's first obstetrician had a big concern about where we were going to baptize my son.

She should have paid more attention to medical issues. She sliced my wife's bladder open during a botched ceasarian.

My wife nearly bled to death on the table.

If I want to pray, I can join a church. If I want medical attention, I want medical attention and nothing else.

If you want to minister to people's spiritual issues, maybe you should leave the medical profession and join the clergy.

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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. I agree with you. Frankly, if I'm sick, I want science, not mythology.
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
72. Truly they are beautiful, as are you for
taking the time to make them. I'm a former Roman Catholic who has converted to Wicca. I have to say that it would make me uncomfortable to accept beads with a crucifix on them, but since you make sets without that, your secular beads, now those, I would happily accept with all the good wishes and prayer they were made with. Thank you for caring, both to make these lovely objects and to make them so that both Christians and those of other faiths can use them
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
76. ask first as always, and call it prayer beads/beaded jewelry. in essence it's a gift
most people, as long as you don't couch it in terms of proselytizing, are quite accepting of gifts to raise a loved one's spirit. flowers for the most part have become secular/non-denominational to a lot of people, but there are plenty of flowers that hold special meaning for certain peoples. and just like that so are gifts of beads. it doesn't have to be about anything, but it can be, and you can leave that as the recipient's choice.

i'd say, "i like making bead work for my patients. they find the gift helps raise their spirits and it helps me work off tension and bond with my patients. would you like one?"

let them respond...

and follow up, "i also take special requests. do you have a particular tradition or style you would like the beads done? i've gotten pretty good at various simple rosaries and other prayer beads. i'm also a whiz at earrings and simple bracelets. let me know if you have a preference."

and leave it at that. it's just a simple act of kindness, completely open-ended and flexible. if they get all up in your face about it, let it slide off and reply "as you wish"; there'll always be 10% of the populace that is eternally bitter and always says no (and even goes further to start pointless shit). remember, you gave them a moment to say yes to both offers, and beyond that you are just being friendly and charitable. there was an open offer with no pressure involved, and most social people will take you up on such kindness.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
77. Some people might prefer a simpler cross rather than a crucifix-style
Personally, I would want something like a celtic cross, or some other cross that is simple, but is rooted in my denomination's Scottish origins.

I think offering these prayer beads is a lovely gesture. An offer to assist someone shouldn't offend anyone. That particular bead set in your OP is beautiful! It looks very expensive, too.
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tchunter Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
79. could you make a misbaha?
its islamic prayer beads, either of 33 or 99 beads, used in prayer....
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. if you show me a picture,I'll be glad to.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
81. Very Beautiful and I see Nothing Wrong with it.
:hi:
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
82. I appreciate your input.
When I began making these,it was to put in the chapel of my hospital,then I made some for the nurses.The patients liked them,and soon it just kind of took off.Religiously I am a very quiet Quaker.I don't force them on anyone,and not everyone gets one.At times,some people need tangible hope.I hope this is what I help provide.Thanks again.I didn't anticipate much of a response.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Hello again my friend
I like them, and most (if not all) of your patients do. I say offer em up with the caveat that if they desire something else you can do so.

I can't see how anyone could be offended by it all - as I said above, I am a christian but if a Tibetan monk offered me a prayer wheel I would take it and be thankful that someone was thinking enough of me to make something.

If I was not happily married to AutumnMist I would ask ya out :)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. I can see very well how someone would be offended
While I agree that the beads are truly lovely, the very last thing I would want to deal w/if I was ill, is someone else's religion. I would not want to have to deal w/the stress of being polite to someone assuming that I believe in gods or prayers.

Some of us that are non-believers have had enough w/the fundies and the attempt to inject religion into our secular government.
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
87. Do you kill puppies in making them? If not, then it's OK! There is a tactful and very
professional way to offer them: that is to discuss your craft and how many have found solace with them, and have various "models" that just happen to be in your office/pocket!

Even sneakier is to have them where you meet people for treatment and have them out with a sign that says: "Free to good home for those in need of comfort."

One of the reason why people detest going to a medical office is well . . . because it looks like a medical office! Stainless steel and white enamel, icky icky poo poo. It seems that only psychologists/counselors/psychiatrists are allowed to have offices that have a human touch!

I would love for someone treating me to offer me a gift!
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
89. That photo of your work is gorgeous. What a heartfelt gift...
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 01:35 AM by Hekate
The only caveat I would have for you is for you to ask permission, as in "I make prayer beads, and people often find them comforting. Would you like me to make some for you? Would you in any way find this offensive, because I am not pressing my beliefs on you, and it needn't have any Christian symbols on it."

Somehow, though, I have a feeling that you do this already. It would be the rare person or family, I think, that would be offended, though some might refuse the gift if they thought it conflicted with beliefs of their own.

Personally, I'd be honored and touched -- though I'd ask for a plain bead at the end instead of a crucifix.

:hug:

Hekate
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
90. Not for those who may ask you for such. It would be arrogant and thoughtless to
make for and give them to those who do not.

Nice beads BTW.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
93. Hmm...
No problem by me, as long as you don't push these down people's throats. The only problem I could see is if your hospital is public financed..I'd recommend talking to your HR person for a few minutes, if nothing else then to inform them. A little heads up will go a long way to dissipating any sort of prospective problems..
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
94. Whatever would make you ask
this question? They are beautiful, obviously made with love, and are for a good cause! No, making them is NOT wrong. How kind of you and I am sure your patients appreciate them in the vein in which you give them. :hug:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
96. Cool! Do you post in the Crafts DU group?
Haven't done much beading because of my caucus organizing responsibilities. I miss it. Silver or pewter? Either way, it's a really nice accent.
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Dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
97. They're beautiful. This ahteist would consider them a lovely gesture.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 06:56 AM by Dutch
Most people will appreciate the sentiment even if they don't share a reverence for the symbolism itself. I imagine very few people outside of DU would seize on it as an oppurtunity to wallow in self-righteous outrage- but hey, even those people would be getting a certain kind of pleasure from them...
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
99. Yes, you are wrong. And no, asking doesn't make it OK. It's the power
problem. A patient and medical provider are in an unequal power relationship, as many above have pointed out. The patient percieves the provider to have something to "give" to him/her (expertise, care, even, subconsciously, health and life). That makes rejecting a gift "dangerous." That the patient is "buying" the care and thus theoretically equal in the relationship does not alter the dynamic - unless perhaps the patient is very rich/powerful and has access to any other provider s/he chooses.

And if any of your patients are on medicaid, for instance, they know quite well that they have no choice at all, and are definately in a powerless position. How ready do you think they would be to risk offending you by refusing a gift?

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
102. I think it's wrong, though they are beautiful.
Personally, I used to be offended by people saying they would pray for me. Now I see how it's intended, not as an insult, but as a genuine show of caring. I wouldn't be offended, even though I have no need for such things, but I can easily see how some might be. So I guess it depends on the individual and how well you feel you know them.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
104. How do you know who is Christian or not?
Most of my immediate family would indicate Catholic when being admitted to the hospital. But I do have other close relatives (aunt, uncle and cousins) who might visit them who are Jewish and I know for sure they would be offended to be presented with a crucifix by someone.

Don
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tachyon Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
105. Nothing at all wrong with it! For those who want it...notwithstanding the fact that nobody is
listening to 'prayers', it's a nice gesture. :-)
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