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Trying to ban waterboarding. Dumb political move by Dems?

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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 02:59 PM
Original message
Trying to ban waterboarding. Dumb political move by Dems?
I think the Dems may have made a mistake by trying to "ban" waterboarding. Waterboarding was already very arguably illegal. Now, after the veto, Bush is already talking about how the bill "would have" removed a valuable tool. The tool was already removed! The veto ironically puts waterboarding back in the toolbox in the minds of many Joe Blockheads. Waterboard away! Bush vetoed that bill!

Knowing there would be a Bush veto, the Dems should have proposed a bill that would make Bush and McCain look bad. I don't think this bill accomplished that. I think it backfired. It failed to accomplish its goal. It let Bush and McCain change the news topic to national defense and anti-terrorism. And it muddied the water of the anti-waterboarding debate in favor of the pro-waterboarders.

Then also, the bill allowed a bunch of Republicans to jump on board and appear moderate and Bush-distanced before the 2008 election.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Demonstrate it on the floor of the House with a random rehtuglican "volunteer"...
...I heartily recommend Steve King or Darell Issa as the volunteers...or Mean Jean...or Boner...

THEN see how gung-ho these bastards are about the torture technique...
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hardly. It is illegal. They wanted it to STOP
However, scared conservatives always think hurting or killing other people will make them feel safer.

This was a good move, identifying the GOP with Torquemada and every other monster throughout history who has used torture.

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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. However, not too many peeps buying his shit these daze...approval rating is in 20's
comprehension rate lower yet...

He has pissed too many and stepped on dicks along the 7 year stretch....his decisions have netted too many bodies and lost mucho dineros...

Poor decisions leads to worst results leads to Bush apathy....now McShame comes to replace....? I don't think so...even if Obama/Clinto fight it out all the way...the Pubs are not looking good to too many peeps out there...
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, my question is . . .
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 03:10 PM by Richard D
. . . now that the U.S. officially approves as waterboarding to get information from "enemies", is it now legally OK for enemies of the US to use waterboarding for similar purposes?
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. For our president to stand up and say it is OK
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 03:41 PM by angrycarpenter
It is maybe the most ashamed of our country I have ever been. Our president wants to be the lone ranger but he is more like the evil cattle baron. And he has our honor, our decency, tied to the tracks.

Edit, and to oppose torture, in my eyes, is never a bad move.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The problem with that argument is
legal or not many people believe that "our enemies" already do torture US captured soldiers based on a few stories from various war fronts. Add to that thousands of American troops who went through Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (S.E.R.E.) training to prepare them for it and I dare say that a large number of our fellow citizens just shrug and ignore the whole torture debate.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. Even dumber, not taking his veto and using it as basis for impeachment.
The man is acknowledging and condoning US use of an internationally recognized form of torture. That's a war crime. But as usual it means squat to the Dems, except for how they can use it for election purposes.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "We do not torture." GW Bush
Enhanced interrogation techniques

Technique details under the Bush administration

According to ABC News<42>, former and current CIA officals have come forward to reveal details of interrogation techniques authorised in the CIA. These include:

1.The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.
2.Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.
3.The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the abdomen. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.
4.Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor, for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.
5.The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees Fahrenheit (10 degrees Celsius).
6.Waterboarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Material is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
Methods used at GITMO
1.Prolonged sleep deprivation,
2.Sensory deprivation,
3.Extremely painful "stress positions,"
4.Sensory bombardment (such as prolonged loud noise and/or bright lights),
5.Forced nakedness,
6.Sexual humiliation,
7.Cultural humiliation (such as desecration of holy scriptures),
8.Being subjected to extreme cold that induces hypothermia,
9.Exploitation of phobias,
10.Simulation of the experience of drowning and controlled drowning, i.e., waterboarding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_interrogation_tec...
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You have just described SERE training
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 05:12 PM by ben_meyers
Thousands of our Rangers, Seals, UDT's and Pilots underwent this type of training. It's exactly why I think many Americans just shrug when you try to make torture an issue. The attitude is they all do it, legal or not.

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Is this supposed to matter?
You've replied with it on two of my posts regarding this subject. Just because these techniques are supposedly authorized by the CIA doesn't make them legal. There's tons of stuff the CIA does and has done that isn't legal. Are you suggesting that makes the law prohibiting these techniques null and void?

When the POTUS condones waterboarding by vetoing a ban on it he's approving of an illegal act, period. It's unprecedented and shameful that any US leader would do this. And it requires action from Congress, not whining and excuses.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Army and CIA have banned it, but mercenaries are still not banned
from using various forms of torture.
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